ethnicity vs. citizenship

[lulubelle]

If a person was born and raised in America, holds dual citizenship, and their parents were born and raised in a South American country, whose ancestors immigrated from Europe (pure European background), is the current generation ethnically Latino? Can they mark Latino on their college application?

[regentrude]

Sure, I don't see why not if that is how they self-identify. Often there is no one simple clear-cut answer to the ethnicity question

ETA: fits totally within the government use of the term.

Quote

The United States Census uses the ethnonym Hispanic or Latino to refer to "a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race".^[20] The Census Bureau also explains that "[o]rigin can be viewed as the heritage, nationality group, lineage, or country of birth of the person or the person’s ancestors before their arrival in the United States. 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by regentrude

[Amira]

Yes, if they want to. I also know American Latinos whose ancestors are Lebanese or who are Jewish. Latin America is a diverse place.

(FWIW, one of those Jewish families gave us a Spanish dreidel that we use every year at Hanukkah.)

[Lanny]

I believe yes, without any problem.  If the parents of this applicant were born in Latin America that should be the end of the story.  If the applicant has a Passport from a Country in Latin America that may or may not come into play here. I suggest checking the box for "Hispanic" or "Latino/Latina".

Note: The dual citizenship can be tricky. Here in Colombia, those with Colombian citizenship MUST enter and leave Colombia with their Colombian passport.  

[Roadrunner]

I know third generation Americans with Spanish ancestry who marked Latino on applications without ever setting foot in Latin America.

So yes, you absolutely can coming from Latin America. 

[MooCow]

My dad is from India and myself and my kids mark Asian.

[SKL]

I would say yes, but acknowledge that the Hispanic ethnicity question is very confusing and cloudy.  There are too many possible definitions, some of which completely ignore the "ethnic" part of the word.

Then again, often the question behind the question has nothing to do with ethnicity either.

Edited November 28, 2021 by SKL

[Lanny]

14 minutes ago, SKL said:

I would say yes, but acknowledge that the Hispanic ethnicity question is very confusing and cloudy.  There are too many possible definitions, some of which completely ignore the "ethic" part of the word.

Then again, often the question behind the question has nothing to do with ethnicity either.

I respectfully  disagree with your last sentence. I believe the question has everything to do with Ethnicity and not with Citizenship.  I believe the applicant should indicate Hispanic/Latino ethnicity on the university applications and when taking the ACT and SAT exams.

[SKL]

15 minutes ago, Lanny said:

I respectfully  disagree with your last sentence. I believe the question has everything to do with Ethnicity and not with Citizenship.  I believe the applicant should indicate Hispanic/Latino ethnicity on the university applications and when taking the ACT and SAT exams.

I do agree that the question has nothing to do with citizenship.

As for "should indicate," I think it's a personal choice.  Personally I would not check that box unless my upbringing reflected the Latino / Hispanic culture, but legally, I think it can be checked either way.

I know a lot of people who are not bringing up their kids culturally Latino / Hispanic, but plan to check the box to access benefits meant to address culture-related challenges.  It bugs me.  At the same time, my kids choose to identify as Hispanic and are legally allowed to.  So.  I am basically a hypocrite.

Edited November 28, 2021 by SKL

[Clarita]

Just do what is most beneficial for you and/or what they identify as. Check whatever box you want. As a Chinese person who immigrated to the US the ethinicity question is pretty bogus at times so I've not taken too much stock in what the "correct" answer should be. I once encountered a list that didn't have a general "asian" category but listed out 10 countries in the Asia continent plus a "Southeast Asia" group so I was three things because they happened to also list Hong-Kongese as seperate from Chinese. Then for some reason Japanese was not listed.

[SeaConquest]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

I do agree that the question has nothing to do with citizenship.

As for "should indicate," I think it's a personal choice.  Personally I would not check that box unless my upbringing reflected the Latino / Hispanic culture, but legally, I think it can be checked either way.

I know a lot of people who are not bringing up their kids culturally Latino / Hispanic, but plan to check the box to access benefits meant to address culture-related challenges.  It bugs me.  At the same time, my kids choose to identify as Hispanic and are legally allowed to.  So.  I am basically a hypocrite.

I'm totally with you. My youngest holds triple citizenship, but for some reason, has always been partial to his citizenship of birth (Mexico). He brags about it to anyone who will listen and really identifies with it. I could honestly see him checking a Latino box when he gets older (I don't check this box when filling out forms for him, obviously), despite being a lily white kid with an American mutt mother of French/Irish/Italian/English descent and a French-Canadian father. 

[TravelingChris]

On 11/28/2021 at 3:44 PM, SKL said:

I do agree that the question has nothing to do with citizenship.

As for "should indicate," I think it's a personal choice.  Personally I would not check that box unless my upbringing reflected the Latino / Hispanic culture, but legally, I think it can be checked either way.

I know a lot of people who are not bringing up their kids culturally Latino / Hispanic, but plan to check the box to access benefits meant to address culture-related challenges.  It bugs me.  At the same time, my kids choose to identify as Hispanic and are legally allowed to.  So.  I am basically a hypocrite.

There is not one Latino/Hispanic culture.  Do you really think that the wealthy in Mexico City have the same culture as the typical Nicaraguan?  Ot Chileans have the same culture as the El Salvadoreans,,?

[SKL]

11 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

There is not one Latino/Hispanic culture.  Do you really think that the wealthy in Mexico City have the same culture as the typical Nicaraguan?  Ot Chileans have the same culture as the El Salvadoreans,,?

I am pretty aware of the diversity, yeah, but that just underlines how meaningless the "Hispanic/Latino ethnicity" question is.  Especially since, on most US forms, the only other answer is "not Hispanic/Latino," implying that the entire rest of the world is essentially all the same.

Just a big pet peeve of mine.

[Carrie12345]

5 hours ago, SKL said:

I am pretty aware of the diversity, yeah, but that just underlines how meaningless the "Hispanic/Latino ethnicity" question is.  Especially since, on most US forms, the only other answer is "not Hispanic/Latino," implying that the entire rest of the world is essentially all the same.

Just a big pet peeve of mine.

As we get more and more diverse in the US and around the word, yeah, it is losing some meaning.  I’ve wondered a lot about how that should be addressed. I have a feeling that in another generation’s time, maybe two at most, there will be a better way to identify underrepresented communities and people.
Last year’s census was the first time I confidently wrote “American” as my origin. Years ago, I had done a phone census and the worker refused to let me use that, and I’ve been annoyed ever since. There is no institution/bureaucracy other than ancestry groups that cares where my great- to 11th-great-grandparents came from. And which one should I pick?
Yet there’s currently still a need to make sure resources are accessible to people whose heritage DOES impact their access.

And maybe we’ll just stop sucking at humaning one day!

 

[vonfirmath]

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

As we get more and more diverse in the US and around the word, yeah, it is losing some meaning.  I’ve wondered a lot about how that should be addressed. I have a feeling that in another generation’s time, maybe two at most, there will be a better way to identify underrepresented communities and people.
Last year’s census was the first time I confidently wrote “American” as my origin. Years ago, I had done a phone census and the worker refused to let me use that, and I’ve been annoyed ever since. There is no institution/bureaucracy other than ancestry groups that cares where my great- to 11th-great-grandparents came from. And which one should I pick?
Yet there’s currently still a need to make sure resources are accessible to people whose heritage DOES impact their access.

And maybe we’ll just stop sucking at humaning one day!

 

I'd have told that worker "I guess you'll have to write Refuse to Answer then because I have no other origin."  (I have been choosing other/American for years on those types of surveys because I don't "identify" (as the current word goes) wiith anything else)

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by vonfirmath

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

I'd have told that worker "I guess you'll have to write Refuse to Answer then because I have no other origin."  (I have been choosing other/American for years on those types of surveys because I don't "identify" (as the current word goes) wiith anything else)

 

I got “I can’t not put down something.”  I do wish I had understood more about the whole thing at the time.

It was even worse when we got down to the kids. I felt so much better doing last year’s. (Online, with no worker interference!)

[TravelingChris]

5 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

As we get more and more diverse in the US and around the word, yeah, it is losing some meaning.  I’ve wondered a lot about how that should be addressed. I have a feeling that in another generation’s time, maybe two at most, there will be a better way to identify underrepresented communities and people.
Last year’s census was the first time I confidently wrote “American” as my origin. Years ago, I had done a phone census and the worker refused to let me use that, and I’ve been annoyed ever since. There is no institution/bureaucracy other than ancestry groups that cares where my great- to 11th-great-grandparents came from. And which one should I pick?
Yet there’s currently still a need to make sure resources are accessible to people whose heritage DOES impact their access.

And maybe we’ll just stop sucking at humaning one day!

 

When asked for race- I write human and we have since dh and I filled out our first census.  I may have filled it out even in 1980 that way because I started doing taxes at age 13, after my father died of  a heart attack and my mom was too overwhelmed and situationally depressed that I had to do them.  So I probably filled out the census too in 1980.

Edited November 30, 2021 by TravelingChris

[Condessa]

I'm not really sure.  My kids have a grandma who was born and raised in Mexico, but was of Scottish/American origin, and while her family loved Mexico, spoke Spanish, and had acquired many elements of Chicano culture, they didn't consider themselves ethnically Latino.  However, my kids are Hispanic because of her husband, who was an immigrant from Cuba of Spanish european ancestry.  That side of the family is very clear that Latino and Hispanic are not synonymous; Latino means ancestry from a Latin American country (not Spain) and Hispanic means ancestry from a heavily Spanish-influenced culture (not Brazil).

[TravelingChris]

10 hours ago, SKL said:

I am pretty aware of the diversity, yeah, but that just underlines how meaningless the "Hispanic/Latino ethnicity" question is.  Especially since, on most US forms, the only other answer is "not Hispanic/Latino," implying that the entire rest of the world is essentially all the same.

Just a big pet peeve of mine.

Sorry for my comment-- I agree all these designations are basically meaningless.  And these preferences are not working as intended.  Exactly why should an equally educated, equally ranked (both families military) and parents coming from disadvantaged backgrounds, why should one get a preference over another?  Why should the children of athletes, successful singers, actors, heads of corporations get advantages over kids from Appalachia or Cumberland plateau who actually live in places of limited resources and may come from families that are extremely poor- or refugees from some place like Byelorussia not get any preference even if dirt poor while refugees from certain Asian places, get it.  I financially support a lot of charities that are either helping disadvantaged children directly like providing music education. space camp scholarships, toys for children of poor families, food banks, etc, etc, etc, I am very interested in actually helping the disadvantaged but not in set asides for people who may or may not be disadvantaged.  

Studies have shown that preferences tend to go to middle income and upper income minorities. And when you put together Asians, Blacks, Hispanic/Latino, American Indian (I am going to order items from the Southwest Indian Foundation which is run by various tribes and is headquartered in Gallup and this is what they want to be called), and Pacific Islanders,  Intuits, etc. whoever anyone lists, I think you are getting close to everyone else being a minority too or getting close to that.

[SKL]

10 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Sorry for my comment-- I agree all these designations are basically meaningless.  And these preferences are not working as intended.  Exactly why should an equally educated, equally ranked (both families military) and parents coming from disadvantaged backgrounds, why should one get a preference over another?  Why should the children of athletes, successful singers, actors, heads of corporations get advantages over kids from Appalachia or Cumberland plateau who actually live in places of limited resources and may come from families that are extremely poor- or refugees from some place like Byelorussia not get any preference even if dirt poor while refugees from certain Asian places, get it.  I financially support a lot of charities that are either helping disadvantaged children directly like providing music education. space camp scholarships, toys for children of poor families, food banks, etc, etc, etc, I am very interested in actually helping the disadvantaged but not in set asides for people who may or may not be disadvantaged.  

Studies have shown that preferences tend to go to middle income and upper income minorities. And when you put together Asians, Blacks, Hispanic/Latino, American Indian (I am going to order items from the Southwest Indian Foundation which is run by various tribes and is headquartered in Gallup and this is what they want to be called), and Pacific Islanders,  Intuits, etc. whoever anyone lists, I think you are getting close to everyone else being a minority too or getting close to that.

Right, and even if I'm not taking benefits for my kids, the designation benefits the entity that can claim two more "disadvantaged" people doing well in their program.

I think I had better shut up now.

[HS Mom in NC]

The problem is that there aren't universally accepted concepts of race and ethnicity.  My youngest was adopted from S. Korea.  Her Korean paperwork (which came with a translation) lists her race as Korean.  Not Asian. Korean. Clearly the Korean government views being Korean as a race, not an ethnicity. (I can't comment on what the Korean people as a whole think because I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other.)

More precise questions will be more useful to get the kind of information they're looking for and the kind of info people want to give. Were you born a US citizen?  Where? Are you an immigrant?  From which country did you immigrate?  What country(ies) were you previously a citizen of? Were you born land currently belonging to an indigenous tribe?  Which one? With what ethnicity(ies) do you identify? With what culture(s) do you identify?  With what ethnic heritage do you identify? For each, do you identify through distant lineal descent, the influence of living ancestors, and/or from first hand experience?

In other words, it's really, really complicated here in the US and in many parts of the world.  Other places it's comparatively simpler. That's why the beginning of this skit by Irish comedians is so funny.  The relationship between ethnicity and citizenship in Ireland is usually simpler than in the US. (If you enjoy the humor they have German, Russian, UK, and Aussie versions too.)

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by HS Mom in NC