Why get a COVID Vaccine if it will make no difference in your life?

[JennyD]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Nobody is going to require by law that you be vaccinated. The US hasn't had a law enforcing any vaccine. But any business or organization is free to set parameters for the participation of vaccinated and unvaccinated folks in their activity, with the goal of protecting people. The "vaccine passport" does nothing but create secure documentation that allows a business or organization to obtain this information so they can set rules for participation. 

Beyond the civically admirable goal of protecting people, businesses are also going to be eager to respond to what will surely be -- at least in the short term -- an incredibly robust market for guaranteed-fully-vaccinated indoor events and activities. 

I got an email yesterday from a spin studio that I used to attend, touting how nearly all of their instructors have been or are in the process of getting vaccinated.  I thought well, if I KNEW that all of the other attendees in a class were vaccinated, maybe I'd go back sometime...

 

[Moonhawk]

40 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

I should be more specific - I have a beef with anyone who would require it by law using the justification that we have to force people to protect others.  If a "vaccine passport" wasn't on the table I would be content with people going about believing whatever they want and acting in ways they choose w/ regard to covid.   

For those who would not require by law, I'm only annoyed with those that would claim others are "selfish" for not choosing to do something that they think protects them/others.  

For people who get the vaccine because they want it, and they others to get it, and it makes them feel like life is safer, I feel no animosity.  Seems very golden-rule-ish to me.  

 

 

This is not a golden rule scenario. That works in instances where the impact is directly felt and seen immediately. This is a dangerous ruler to measure by in this circumstance because you aren't [hopefully] actively trying to get people sick but could be anyway; unintended action. The golden rule has to do with intentional actions towards others and personal interactions, not public health decisions.

I want people to make informed decisions. Not decisions based on their feelings or their politics or because a non-expert media person tells them how to FEEL about the vaccine, but a decision based on scientific facts, risk-benefit analysis, their particular medical history, and yes, knowledge of how we are interconnected.

If taking all of this into account and the best answer for them and their health is to not take the vaccine, so be it. There will be people where this is the best choice. But if people are choosing not to vaccinate simply because "I'm not afraid. It's my body and doesn't affect anyone else because they can do whatever they want." <--- this is where I get all uppity. I won't call someone "selfish" because that implies I understand their motive, but I will assume shortsightedness, misinformed, or having poor decision skills (since these are the most charitable options).

Now the vaccine passport is ironically closer to the Golden Rule than not, since countries would say, "We will not allow you to treat us this way" and keep one out if they would put the country at risk. Making the decision for themselves about what risk they are willing to take on: the flip side, you could say, of "treat others as you want to be treated." Why are you free to make a decision for yourself without regarding the consequences to others, THEN are also free to tell others (other countries no less!) that they have to let you travel there, which is a privilege instead of a right?

Edited April 2, 2021 by Moonhawk

[JennyD]

21 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

This is a really HUGE topic that I'm not going to be able to fully engage in, but let's say that I had to show proof of vaccination to go to the DMV because the CDC/local health agency said so under public health. 

 

I very much doubt that the DMV is ever going to set such a requirement, precisely because it is a government entity and needs to be widely open to the general public as both a matter of law and public policy.  

Cruise ships, concert venues, karaoke bars, and gyms, OTOH, don't serve public functions and their owners are going to make decisions based on what they think will make them the most money.  And private organizations are going to do whatever they want.  I am curious to see if my synagogue, for example, is going to set a vaccination requirement for attending the big fall holiday services.  (FWIW, my money is on yes.)

 

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by JennyD

[regentrude]

22 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

This is a really HUGE topic that I'm not going to be able to fully engage in, but let's say that I had to show proof of vaccination to go to the DMV because the CDC/local health agency said so under public health.  Even if I wasn't required by law to get a vaccine, life would be....   really hard.   If that were to come to pass, perfectly healthy people without a communicable disease could be limited.   

It is to hope that we will, in addition to the vaccine, have reliable, robust, quick testing so that people will have an alternative way to demonstrate they are free of disease. (Unless we have that, you don't know whether you carry a pathogen that has the potential of killing your fellow human. )
I would consider it very reasonable and reassuring if, for example, the DMV were to provide fast testing. If other countries can roll those out so folks can get a haircut, we could certainly have that for attending mandated-by-law activities like DMV and jury duty (don't get me started on my experience with the latter)

Quote

I think that the "nudge" philosophy of making it hard for people to do things so that they'll comply is antithetical to living in a free, liberal, world. 

Every person's freedom stops at the point where they are endangering the safety of another human.  

Edited April 2, 2021 by regentrude

[regentrude]

31 minutes ago, JennyD said:

Beyond the civically admirable goal of protecting people, businesses are also going to be eager to respond to what will surely be -- at least in the short term -- an incredibly robust market for guaranteed-fully-vaccinated indoor events and activities. 

Oh heck yes! I would be much more ready to engage in public life if I knew the other participants were fully vaccinated.

[freesia]

49 minutes ago, JennyD said:

I very much doubt that the DMV is ever going to set such a requirement, precisely because it is a government entity and needs to be widely open to the general public as both a matter of law and public policy.  

Cruise ships, concert venues, karaoke bars, and gyms, OTOH, don't serve public functions and are going to make decisions based on what they think will make them the most money.  And private organizations are going to do whatever they want.  I am curious to see if my synagogue, for example, is going to set a vaccination requirement for attending the big fall holiday services.  (FWIW, my money is on yes.)

 

 

Yes, I agree.  Private businesses can require vaccines as part of their freedom in a free, liberal society.  Folks can say they will only attend concerts, go on cruise ships if others have the vaccine as part of their freedom.  Whether venues do that is going to be based on profit analysis, I am sure.

But no, I doubt the DMV will ever require a vaccine. 

People will  have freedom to choose, as they do in our country.  But freedom to choose does not mean there are no boundaries or consequences.  Rarely in life is there any choice that doesn't carry risk, boundaries or consequences.  It's not like anyone ever just gets to live their life however they feel without shutting doors of some kind.

Edited April 2, 2021 by freesia

[kbutton]

18 hours ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

Influenzas also have strains that are more infections, cause more serious complications, result in more deaths.   My perspective is that this new coronavirus is now endemic and that we're going to have to move forward with it being part of the diseases that humans have to deal with.  

We deal with endemic flu by...drum roll...vaccinating! And if we have a pandemic flu, you can bet they'd be rolling out an effective vaccination/booster for it with all due haste. With covid, the jury is out on how long vaccination will last, but there are signs it could be for a long time. With the flu, we know it changes seasonally with some strains becoming endemic. But we still vaccinate for it, and most flu shots protect against multiple strains for this reason. 

[ktgrok]

4 hours ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

 

 For example, Since the news is focusing on the push to vaccinate and control the behavior of young people I was just trying to look at some of the CDC data this morning for U18yrs and it looks like non-covid pneumonia resulted in 3x as many deaths over the last year as covid did.  Covid and the flu were roughly the same.  I don't see how that justifies recommendations I see being pushed.  

 

This is both because 18 yr olds seem to spread the virus just as much as older adults, even though they don't get as sick, and because the new variants seem to hit younger people harder so the death and hospitalization stats may soon change. But even if they don't, vaccinating 18 yr olds protects older people they interact with, as well as younger people who can't be vaccinated. 

And of course, death is NOT the only bad outcome. 

2 hours ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

If people choose, even in part, to get a vaccine because they think it protects other people that is up to them.  I would not and will not ask them to do that .   This might be subtle, but people who want others to get the vaccine because they want to be protected by other people is where I have a beef.  

Well, I think asking others to do something that is fairly minor to them but might save another person's life is not a huge ask. 

 

[Pam in CT]

re "vaccine passports," "nudges," and private businesses' rights vs individual consumers' rights

1 hour ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

I should be more specific - I have a beef with anyone who would require it by law using the justification that we have to force people to protect others.  If a "vaccine passport" wasn't on the table I would be content with people going about believing whatever they want and acting in ways they choose w/ regard to covid...

Now that the brouhaha over Dr Seuss and Cancel Culture has subsided for the moment at least, looks like "vaccine passport" is emerging as the culture war topic du jour.

New York City went first, with the Excelsior Pass.  The purpose of it is to Reopen!! the Economy!! (which I'm old enough to remember, once was a clarion call) by allowing large entertainment and arts venues (private, non-profit, and municipal) to OPT IN to participate and individuals to OPT IN to demonstrate either recent negative test results or vaccination status... in order to boost patron confidence and get attendance and money rolling again.

It is in response to venues who WANT to have and use it, in recognition that many of their patrons will only come back if they have and use it. Will some patrons decline to come if the pass is required? Yes, but the private actor calculation is that more patrons will decline to come unless they have it.  Their venue, their calculation of where patron sentiment is, their choice.  I understand that it was Madison Square Garden that was the first and greatest proponent of the plan.

I expect the basic concept *will* extend to yoga studios and gyms and other private businesses.  Their business, their assessment of their own patron base, their choice on how to navigate this limbo we're staring down. 

We've had lively debates on these boards about private businesses' rights vs public accommodation laws; see: gay wedding cake.  Folks who don't want to vaccinate are not, currently, a legally protected class. 

 

That said...

1 hour ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

This is a really HUGE topic that I'm not going to be able to fully engage in, but let's say that I had to show proof of vaccination to go to the DMV because the CDC/local health agency said so under public health.  Even if I wasn't required by law to get a vaccine, life would be....   really hard.   If that were to come to pass, perfectly healthy people without a communicable disease could be limited. ...

... I think it is highly unlikely that government agencies like DMV will require proof of vaccination for public services, even though (as has also come up often on these boards) driving is a privilege not a right.  Certainly not under EUA.

(Or that a vaccine passport would be a requirement for voting, which IS a Constitutionally enshrined right...)

 

1 hour ago, JennyD said:

I very much doubt that the DMV is ever going to set such a requirement, precisely because it is a government entity and needs to be widely open to the general public as both a matter of law and public policy.  

Cruise ships, concert venues, karaoke bars, and gyms, OTOH, don't serve public functions and their owners are going to make decisions based on what they think will make them the most money.  And private organizations are going to do whatever they want.  I am curious to see if my synagogue, for example, is going to set a vaccination requirement for attending the big fall holiday services.  (FWIW, my money is on yes.)

I'm on the board of my synagogue and this is an animated topic of conversation right now. It's weirdly erudite and hypothetical, since literally everyone I know in the community is either fully or partially vaccinated or, if in the youngest age cohort that just became eligible this week, champing at the bit to get appointment slots. But there's a lot of debate about *requiring.*

 

 

1 hour ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

...I think that the "nudge" philosophy of making it hard for people to do things so that they'll comply is antithetical to living in a free, liberal, world. 

A "nudge" is actually a bit different. A "nudge" is a small POSITIVE incentive that, well, nudges folks toward a choice that the nudge-r deems as desirable. It's not about making it "hard," but rather the opposite, to give a small positive reward. Krispy Kreme's offer of free donuts to anyone who shows up with a just-vaccinated card is an example of a "nudge."  If CVS gave a small gift card to everyone they vaccinated, that would constitute a nudge.

 

(If Madison Square Garden were to host vaccination events and then gave out basketball game tickets to games after full immunization kicked in, that would be an extremely attractive nudge that might bring in a significant cohort of people who might not otherwise bother, and I hope someone in management is reading this #genius suggestion; you're welcome.)

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Pam in CT
typo

[ktgrok]

I would LOVE some kind of public acknowledgement of vaccination status, personally. I had to call and ask the pediatric dentist if their staff was, I have no idea which physical therapists if any at my medical center are, etc. And if a massage place or nail salon advertised as having all it's workers vaccinated I'd love that! And once everyone can gte vaccinated who wants to, I'd definitely prefer to go to a place that requires vaccination (or medical exemption). 

With masking, I can see who is or isn't following guidelines, and what percentage of people in a building are masked, etc. Can't with vaccines. 

Edited April 2, 2021 by ktgrok

[Penelope]

3 hours ago, kand said:

I don’t see this supporting what you indicated. This shows there has been one pediatric flu death this season. The 2019-20 season was a bad one and had 198 pediatric flu deaths. Since Jan 2020, there have been 295 pediatric Covid19 deaths. 

The Covid numbers are over a time period of what would be >2 flu seasons, in a 100% naiive population. Influenza occurs in a population where many of us already have some level of immunity to whatever strain circulates in a season, even children.

I think its a pretty strong argument that influenza is a more serious threat to children than Covid. At the least, Covid is not more threatening than the flu for them.

 

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Penelope

[Penelope]

7 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I would LOVE some kind of public acknowledgement of vaccination status, personally. I had to call and ask the pediatric dentist if their staff was, I have no idea which physical therapists if any at my medical center are, etc. And if a massage place or nail salon advertised as having all it's workers vaccinated I'd love that! And once everyone can gte vaccinated who wants to, I'd definitely prefer to go to a place that requires vaccination (or medical exemption). 

That sounds nice, but where and when does it end? I do not think anyone but myself and my doctor has any business knowing my medical information. 
I’ve been vaccinated for Covid as well as everything else recommended for me in the US. 
 

But I don’t think this general idea of public disclosure of vaccination status, or requirement to do so, leads anywhere good. 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Penelope said:

That sounds nice, but where and when does it end? I do not think anyone but myself and my doctor has any business knowing my medical information. 
I’ve been vaccinated for Covid as well as everything else recommended for me in the US. 
 

But I don’t think this general idea of public disclosure of vaccination status, or requirement to do so, leads anywhere good. 

I wasn't talking about some federal requirement, but about businesses choosing to brag about having people vaccinated.

I was remembering how in medical settings it is common o have some kind of flu vaccine acknowledgement on their badge. Same idea would be great for Covid, but haven't seen anything like it yet. 

 

[Terabith]

Our church just announced that they might be returning to indoor worship after August 15, IF 75% of the city is vaccinated (I'm guessing they mean adults, although the newsletter says people) AND if the city wide positivity rate is under 3%.  

Am I the only person who hears "Do your own research," and wants to reply, "It's not ethical to run scientific studies out of your house?"  

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Our church just announced that they might be returning to indoor worship after August 15, IF 75% of the city is vaccinated (I'm guessing they mean adults, although the newsletter says people) AND if the city wide positivity rate is under 3%.  

Am I the only person who hears "Do your own research," and wants to reply, "It's not ethical to run scientific studies out of your house?"  

I'm dying laughing and totally stealing this response. 

 

[Penelope]

11 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I wasn't talking about some federal requirement, but about businesses choosing to brag about having people vaccinated.

I was remembering how in medical settings it is common o have some kind of flu vaccine acknowledgement on their badge. Same idea would be great for Covid, but haven't seen anything like it yet. 

 

I’m on board with that, but wouldn’t that involve employers asking employees for this information? There could be pressure involved. I am only in favor if a small business has everyone voluntarily share their status and then they advertise it with their consent.

I hope as many people get vaccinations as possible. However, as safe as they are, it is a medical intervention that carries some non-zero amount of risk for certain folks, and I don’t believe anyone should be coerced into having one. 
And I want to maintain our prior societal expectation that medical information remains private.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Penelope

[Moonhawk]

Actually, circling back on this idea of the "requirements" of the vaccine. It is being spun out of proportion from "international travel" [where you don't have a right to go anyway] and "private businesses" to ---> (1) "all travel" and "all business" and then --->  (2) "all government agencies" and then finally to  ---> (3) "every place I need to go and do, I will be stuck in home and denied my rights as a citizen to live!"

THEN using this spin-out as a justification to do something. When used to argue against getting a vaccine, it's not a good look, because the PRIMARY question you should be asking yourself is if it's the scientifically/other-factored right choice. Not make up hypothetical situations where maybe you'll be punished for a certain choice.

There is no basis to believe that jumps in spin-out 1 will happen, let alone 2 or 3. Using 3 to justify or explain a decision is an example of fear mongering and poor decision making. 

It's almost like you're looking for a reason to NOT do something you know you should.

[Terabith]

41 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

I think it is highly unlikely that government agencies like DMV will require proof of vaccination for public services, even though (as has also come up often on these boards) driving is a privilege not a right.  Certainly not under EUA.

Just want to point out quickly that while driving is a privilege, not a right, the DMV is also where you go to get non driving governmental identification cards, as well.  

[Pam in CT]

re driving is not a right, but access to ID needed to vote in some states, is

13 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Just want to point out quickly that while driving is a privilege, not a right, the DMV is also where you go to get non driving governmental identification cards, as well.  

That is a good point.  My state doesn't require DMV-issued ID to vote -- there are a number of other forms of ID accepted as proof of identity -- but plenty of states do.  Another reason why "vaccine passport" to enter DMV is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

[JennyD]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

I'm on the board of my synagogue and this is an animated topic of conversation right now. It's weirdly erudite and hypothetical, since literally everyone I know in the community is either fully or partially vaccinated or, if in the youngest age cohort that just became eligible this week, champing at the bit to get appointment slots. But there's a lot of debate about *requiring.*

Yeah, this is where we are too.  Every single community member I know is either vaccinated or desperate to get vaccinated.  But high holiday services are so many people together for such a long time... I think that our rabbi may ultimately just pull rank and say that this is a matter of Jewish law (which of course it is).  I am actually most concerned about how we are going to make sure that children continue to be part of the community while also keeping them (and the rest of the congregation) safe during this period of however many months that we are waiting for pediatric vaccines.

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by JennyD

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, Pam in CT said:

re driving is not a right, but access to ID needed to vote in some states, is

That is a good point.  My state doesn't require DMV-issued ID to vote -- there are a number of other forms of ID accepted as proof of identity -- but plenty of states do.  Another reason why "vaccine passport" to enter DMV is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

It's not just that you need photo ID in order to vote.  It's that you need photo ID in order to do a whole host of things......including to get your 16 and 17 year olds vaccinated.  

(This is fresh, because we just got the legal name change for my 17 year old, but in order to change it with social security, I was informed that I have to send the original name change from the court, my child's original social security card, original birth certificate, and my actual driver's license, to prove I am their legal parent, through the mail to social security administration office, which would leave me without any form of legal identification as well as preventing me from legally driving for however long it would be until the SSA mailed my documents back.  Assuming they do.  I've decided I simply cannot do that until after they've been vaccinated, which pushes everything back, and means I'm not sure we can travel out of town this summer without my driver's license, since I'm the only adult who can drive on interstates.)