Facebook nonsense

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Sleep is the bane of my existence as a parent, lol. I was always really strict about it and people would get grumpy about me being rigid. But I knew that we were all going to pay for skipping a nap or staying up late... 

 

It’s funny because my social circles thought I brought problems on myself for not “making” my kids nap (as if I could—they took short naps even in their napping years), lol! My kids wanted their sleep all at one time and at night. But once mine were school age, it was okay to have kid’s programming that ended late and to have them up early for school. People like to be madly inconsistent. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, kbutton said:

It’s funny because my social circles thought I brought problems on myself for not “making” my kids nap (as if I could—they took short naps even in their napping years), lol! My kids wanted their sleep all at one time and at night. But once mine were school age, it was okay to have kid’s programming that ended late and to have them up early for school. People like to be madly inconsistent. 

Lol, people are so ridiculous about accepting that different kids are different. 

DD8 took a good nap until about age 4.5. Her bedtime needed to be shifted up by however long she napped, and she did better with a nap that was around 1.5 hours. It was all pretty easy. 

DD4 napped until age 3, but after age 2 or so, if she napped, she had an impossibly hard time going to sleep. I tried shifting bedtimes up and down like I did with DD8, but it simply didn't do anything -- whatever I did, she wasn't tired enough and would have to roll around for 40 minutes before falling asleep. 

So we wound up dropping her nap a LOT earlier than DD8's. Different kids, different solutions. She falls asleep nicely and is perfectly happy having all her sleep at night. 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

Yeah, I'm sure it's the same one.  I actually joined because I was excited to find a place that everyone didn't just jump to unschooling or only online classes (again before covid).   I was pretty surprised when I actually saw what was being posted.  I'm still on there but not very active at all.  I'll try and be a voice of reason every so often but mostly I glance at what hits my newsfeed and ignore it otherwise.   I'm not really sure why I'm a member anymore.  

Yeah, that's why I joined as well. I thought it'd be fun to have a space which is secular AND academic. 

They take the "secular" part pretty seriously, but the "academic" part not at all. So you can't link to Mr. Q's experiments even though each experiment itself is perfectly secular (and they are nicely done!), but you can absolutely post about your 13 year old doing an hour of schoolwork a day... 

I don't know that I'd want them to seriously censor the non-academic parents, but I'm pretty sure there are things they could do to encourage more academic people to speak up 😉 . As is, the culture of the group bothers me. 

[Shoeless]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Hmm, sorry to hear that 😞 . I'd be curious what went wrong, but that's purely because I like gossip 😉 . 

The instructor was kind of rigid and my son "asks too many questions". It is the standard complaint we get from instructors. A lot of teachers don't seem to know how to handle a kid like that in the moment. He has has 3 that know how to address it, and far more that do not and instead call me to complain and suggest I "talk to him". 

Well, of course I have talked to him about not bombarding the teacher with questions, but there also needs to be a strategy the teacher employs in the moment to get him to settle down. I know what they need to do, but they don't like me giving advice on classroom management. 

This is why he doesn't go to school, lol. Bright, quirky kid that does not like the authoritarian nature of many classrooms, and will fact-check the teacher? Nooooo...not a good combo.

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

The instructor was kind of rigid and my son "asks too many questions". It is the standard complaint we get from instructors. A lot of teachers don't seem to know how to handle a kid like that in the moment. He has has 3 that know how to address it, and far more that do not and instead call me to complain and suggest I "talk to him". 

Well, of course I have talked to him about not bombarding the teacher with questions, but there also needs to be a strategy the teacher employs in the moment to get him to settle down. I know what they need to do, but they don't like me giving advice on classroom management. 

This is why he doesn't go to school, lol. Bright, quirky kid that does not like the authoritarian nature of many classrooms, and will fact-check the teacher? Nooooo...not a good combo.

Oh yeah, we've talked about this! I remember now. 

I feel like the right way to treat this is to just tell the kids to wait a bit and to act both impressed by whatever impressive thing the kid wanted to say and also to make it clear you're the teacher and not him 😉 . 

I have a kid that's kind of like this in my homeschooling classes. He's VERY apt to go off on tangents, partially because he wants to show how smart he is, lol. "How do we make 11 with poker chips?" "We take 1.1 of the poker chips that mean 10! Now, let me tell you about the decimal system..." Yeah, no, kid. I'd like integer numbers of poker chips, however smart you are. 

It doesn't BOTHER me, though, which I think helps. I understand the desire to be right and to show off 😉 . 

[Shoeless]

7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh yeah, we've talked about this! I remember now. 

I feel like the right way to treat this is to just tell the kids to wait a bit and to act both impressed by whatever impressive thing the kid wanted to say and also to make it clear you're the teacher and not him 😉 . 

I have a kid that's kind of like this in my homeschooling classes. He's VERY apt to go off on tangents, partially because he wants to show how smart he is, lol. "How do we make 11 with poker chips?" "We take 1.1 of the poker chips that mean 10! Now, let me tell you about the decimal system..." Yeah, no, kid. I'd like integer numbers of poker chips, however smart you are. 

It doesn't BOTHER me, though, which I think helps. I understand the desire to be right and to show off 😉 . 

Yep, sounds like my kid, lol. And the instructors he has done well with tell him "I can't answer those questions right now, but I will in 10 minutes/on our next break/after class". They stick to it, don't take it personally, and know that because he is a kid, he is going to need a few reminders. 

The instructors that haven't worked out don't want to do that. They want me to "talk to him", ground him if he forgets, motivate him with a sticker chart (ha!), have him evaluated for adhd. He doesn't have adhd. He's mouthy and opinionated, like his mother, lol. 

It is less of an issue as he gets older because he's more mature. There is hardly ever an issue in art or d&d anymore. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, MissLemon said:

Yep, sounds like my kid, lol. And the instructors he has done well with tell him "I can't answer those questions right now, but I will in 10 minutes/on our next break/after class". They stick to it, don't take it personally, and know that because he is a kid, he is going to need a few reminders. 

Yeah, I have a soft spot for bright kids, however annoying they are 😉 . 

The only kid I've kicked out of the class so far had undiagnosed autism, I think. No one warned me, his dad dropped him off, and he spent the whole class either ignoring what I was saying, throwing things, or refusing to play the games we were playing and rolling on the floor under the tables. His sibling actually HAS diagnosed autism, so... I had a feeling about that one 😉. 

Anyway, I had to tell his mom that I did NOT have the ability to deal with this in the class. But I've dealt with actually ADHD kids, and also one kid who actually seemed to enjoy hurting other kids, sigh. (Who I've had to ask to sit on the floor away from other kids, and then her mother later demanded why I was doing this to her precious flower... But that's another story.)

Sorry, this is off-topic... but point being that in my classes, a bright and mouthy kid was really not a big problem 😉 . 

 

1 minute ago, MissLemon said:

The instructors that haven't worked out don't want to do that. They want me to "talk to him", ground him if he forgets, motivate him with a sticker chart (ha!), have him evaluated for adhd. He doesn't have adhd. He's mouthy and opinionated, like his mother, lol. 

It's really weird that teachers would ask a parent to intervene in the first place. I mean, things really have to be unmanageable, I would think, before a teacher would want to give up their authority that much? The whole point is that in the classroom, the teacher is supposed to deal with the kids. The parents are absolutely supposed to be the last resort. 

 

1 minute ago, MissLemon said:

It is less of an issue as he gets older because he's more mature. There is hardly ever an issue in art or d&d anymore. 

That's good to hear! Glad he's growing up. 

[Nichola]

...

Edited January 21, 2021 by Rosemary

[Shoeless]

19 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

 😉

It's really weird that teachers would ask a parent to intervene in the first place. I mean, things really have to be unmanageable, I would think, before a teacher would want to give up their authority that much? The whole point is that in the classroom, the teacher is supposed to deal with the kids. The parents are absolutely supposed to be the last resort. 

That is what I thought, too. Like, this has to be out of hand for them to contact me. I asked to come observe the class, because I was clueless how to fix this without seeing exactly what the issue is. Nope, not allowed to observe because that would be too disruptive. Ok, hang on...Me standing in the back of the room for 20 minutes is more disruptive than whatever it is he is doing? Then his behavior can't be all that bad. I don't know how to fix a problem I can't observe. 

In hindsight, I think a lot of the issue is that these were "instructors", and not trained teachers. They had excellent content knowledge but little classroom management knowledge.

Edited January 2, 2021 by MissLemon

[Not_a_Number]

20 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

That is what I thought, too. Like, this has to be out of hand for them to contact me. I asked to come observe the class, because I was clueless how to fix this without seeing exactly what the issue is. Nope, not allowed to observe because that would be too disruptive. Ok, hang on...Me standing in the back of the room for 20 minutes is more disruptive than whatever it is he is doing? Then his behavior can't be all that bad. I don't know how to fix a problem I can't observe. 

In hindsight, I think a lot of the issue is that these were "instructors", and not trained teachers. They had excellent content knowledge but little classroom management knowledge.

I was about to say I’m not a trained teacher, either, and then I realized that wasn’t quite true, lol. I guess I hadn’t had experience with this age but I’d done classroom management with college kids. So maybe that does help?

[catz]

54 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

The instructor was kind of rigid and my son "asks too many questions". It is the standard complaint we get from instructors. A lot of teachers don't seem to know how to handle a kid like that in the moment. He has has 3 that know how to address it, and far more that do not and instead call me to complain and suggest I "talk to him". 

 

Oh wow, this was my oldest to a T also!  These kiddos crack me up!  My kid did develop self awareness at about 12-13 and this was never an issue again.  It's also partially why I strictly enforce age ranges when I'm teaching classes as someone who regularly has quirky GT kids in the mix.

I know people teaching on outschool.  I think stuff on outschool can vary as much as any 2 teachers can. Possibly more because this format is pretty open ended and you don't need to follow one path or curriculum.  The people I know locally, offer very popular, engaging but high level input, open ended style classes though I don't know much about their outschool classes.  I think when you're picking outside classes you need to know what need you are fulfilling?  Is it social?  Do you want your child to learn to participate in a discussion?  Do you want your child to jump through another teacher's hoops?  Do you want high level input and have an output resistant child?  Do you need a get 'er done solution for a subject area for a period of time?  Do you  want something that will require lots of output? Etc.  Know what you're looking for and dig into classes and reviews from there.  Rarely is a single class, in particular online going to fulfill every desire for every kid and their parent in that class.  Most of what I've paid for has been more for social, learning to hoop jump, enrichment purposes with a few exceptions.  I have one local teacher I really trust for history/social studies for example.   

Well designed homeschool classes are something I could drone on and on about because I've paid and taught/tutored many over the years.  I think good homeschool classes offer high level engaging input with open ended output options. I prefer classes capped at about 10-12 students.  So if I'm teaching "Basket Weaving for Math Geeks", I might present history of basket weaving, share a variety of online resources/videos, diagram and explain the mathematics of basket weaving, teach the basics of basket weaving, demoing advanced techniques as we go on for kids practicing a lot at home.  And the final project might be, complete a basket project and talk about it in class.  Kid A who is highly engaged brings in a set of highly engineered interlocking baskets, kid B who enjoyed class but is in the middle of theater rehearsals brings in a basic basket.  And kid C whose mom is in chemo might not complete anything but wove a few things in class and enjoyed the social aspect and it's never mentioned in class.  And I have not taught "Basket Weaving for Math Geeks" lol  but I have designed some off beat classes that combine a few subject areas in engaging and off beat ways.  They tend to be good discussion/social and some kids will fly with the content and some won't but no one will be holding anyone else back.  Anyway, I think sources like Outschool can be great with careful selection in the context of fulfilling a particular need if you're willing to research.  I don't doubt there are teachers there that would have never worked at all for my own kids.   There are teachers I know personally working at local co-ops that people love that wouldn't work for my own kids for that matter.  Like most things, YMMV.  

Heck, I think Khan Academy can be a great resource.  My college student references it regularly for math review actually.  I've pointed kids I've math tutored to particular review sections or problem sets.  But I agree you can't point the average 14 year old at it and say figure out high school kid.  But my high schoolers have needed to be pretty self driven and motivated or I would have put them in school at that point because they also will not listen to me talk at them all day.  

[catz]

1 hour ago, MissLemon said:

 

The instructors that haven't worked out don't want to do that. They want me to "talk to him", ground him if he forgets, motivate him with a sticker chart (ha!), have him evaluated for adhd. He doesn't have adhd. He's mouthy and opinionated, like his mother, lol. 

 

Oh jeez.  This is why we pulled my kid out of school actually.  The "maybe he has ADHD".  Hmmm ... maybe you, marginal teacher, don't know how to engage or manage a group of varied kids?   Sounds like an awful teacher.   

And I'm not convinced the average licensed teacher is better actually.  My kid's PS first grade teacher was the WORST.  Taking recess minutes away from an entire class for individual infractions in 6-7 year olds is a great idea right?!  She should have quietly added minutes when kids were getting squirrely.  His male kindergarten teacher was fantastic actually.   Lots of up out of the seat stuff.  

[Wheres Toto]

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, that's why I joined as well. I thought it'd be fun to have a space which is secular AND academic. 

They take the "secular" part pretty seriously, but the "academic" part not at all. So you can't link to Mr. Q's experiments even though each experiment itself is perfectly secular (and they are nicely done!), but you can absolutely post about your 13 year old doing an hour of schoolwork a day... 

I don't know that I'd want them to seriously censor the non-academic parents, but I'm pretty sure there are things they could do to encourage more academic people to speak up 😉 . As is, the culture of the group bothers me. 

I wish they would take the Academic part as seriously as they take the Secular part.   

The culture has changed some since covid.  It didn't bother me as much before the flood of newbies who aren't actually interested in homeschooling. 

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Oh wow, this was my oldest to a T also!  These kiddos crack me up!  My kid did develop self awareness at about 12-13 and this was never an issue again.  It's also partially why I strictly enforce age ranges when I'm teaching classes as someone who regularly has quirky GT kids in the mix.

My kiddo is 12 now, and is making this transition.  Of course, he's 12 so the transition isn't smooth, lol. Mostly he directs his opinions and "helpful tips for living" toward me these days instead of instructors. 🙄 It stinks, but it's better than having yet-another-instructor grump at me because he didn't sit in rapt silence while they lectured.  

1 hour ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Oh jeez.  This is why we pulled my kid out of school actually.  The "maybe he has ADHD".  Hmmm ... maybe you, marginal teacher, don't know how to engage or manage a group of varied kids?   Sounds like an awful teacher.   

 I wish I had a dollar for every time someone tried to diagnose my kid. And then add in another dollar for every time they'd insist that no, really, they KNOW he's got adhd or autism, and I'm lying to myself and obviously allllll the people that have evaluated him (speech path, pediatrician, developmental ped., social worker), do not know what they are talking about. 

Nope. He's just weird, bright, and opinionated. Kids come in that variant, too., lol 

[Not_a_Number]

19 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

I wish they would take the Academic part as seriously as they take the Secular part.   

Me, too. I don't think it would actually be very hard -- the moderators would just need to make it clear that it's an academic group, and they'd need o contribute thoughtful, academically-minded responses. Providing some daily academic themes would also go a long way. (We used to run daily themes in my babywearing wrapping group to get people to talk about wrapping as a skill as opposed to wrap as collector's objects. You CAN change focus by doing stuff like that.) 

 

19 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

The culture has changed some since covid.  It didn't bother me as much before the flood of newbies who aren't actually interested in homeschooling. 

What was the culture like before? 

[Wheres Toto]

49 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Me, too. I don't think it would actually be very hard -- the moderators would just need to make it clear that it's an academic group, and they'd need o contribute thoughtful, academically-minded responses. Providing some daily academic themes would also go a long way. (We used to run daily themes in my babywearing wrapping group to get people to talk about wrapping as a skill as opposed to wrap as collector's objects. You CAN change focus by doing stuff like that.) 

 

What was the culture like before? 

Still not strongly academic but more of a mix than it is now.   In my opinion/experience, the long-term homeschoolers who were doing it deliberately for whatever (secular) reason were more interested in a deep discussion about different curriculums and how they work, what kids might do well with a given resources and ways to tweak things if necessary.  Book suggestions (there is still some of that there), supplemental materials, help with problems were much more common back then.   

For a while it was people who were reluctantly homeschooling and wanted something quick and easy, preferably online.   

Although lately there's been some deeper discussions, right now there's a lot of book discussions.  People are discussing different translations of the Odyssey and key points of The Hobbit.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Wheres Toto said:

Still not strongly academic but more of a mix than it is now.   In my opinion/experience, the long-term homeschoolers who were doing it deliberately for whatever (secular) reason were more interested in a deep discussion about different curriculums and how they work, what kids might do well with a given resources and ways to tweak things if necessary.  Book suggestions (there is still some of that there), supplemental materials, help with problems were much more common back then.   

Got it. Sounds better, anyway. 

 

1 minute ago, Wheres Toto said:

For a while it was people who were reluctantly homeschooling and wanted something quick and easy, preferably online.   

Although lately there's been some deeper discussions, right now there's a lot of book discussions.  People are discussing different translations of the Odyssey and key points of The Hobbit.  

I've never seen a single good math discussion, though. I couldn't get any bites for any math questions 😞 . 

[Roadrunner]

I blame crappy online platforms that have proliferated that led people to believe they can homeschool without lifting a finger. As @RootAnnmentioned, even here now, the “academic” part is not what it used to be. 
I see the same thing in the internet - do whatever kid wants, 2-3 hours is just fine for high school. And then these people are writing their children’s transcripts and putting us all to shame. And when I point out colleges might want to see something more than just “mom’s grades,” I am jumped at and shamed that I somehow denigrate parents’ work by calling it “mommy grades.” Well sorry ladies, but as it looks to me from were I am sitting, yes, those grades should be questioned for the majority of kids. 
it is all very depressing. I don’t hang out with any homeschoolers anymore. I can’t hold my tongue. 

[Shoeless]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I've never seen a single good math discussion, though. I couldn't get any bites for any math questions 😞 . 

In my opinion, many of the people in that group have an "Eeeew, math is hard and gross!" mindset. It is where I consistently heard "Just bake with them! That's all they need!" for math advice, and that was a few years ago. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, MissLemon said:

In my opinion, many of the people in that group have an "Eeeew, math is hard and gross!" mindset. It is where I consistently heard "Just bake with them! That's all they need!" for math advice, and that was a few years ago. 

Oh my goodness. It's almost every single math post 😞 . Someone posted an algebra question, and while some people chimed in with answers, there was a lot of joking of the form "Ewwww! Is this what homeschooling will look like in my future?? How will I manage?!" (Then I think people answered with "Don't worry, that's what Khan Academy is for!")  

There was also a post joking about whether you could go insane or something from trying to teach your kid math. 

So yeah... the attitude is that math is some sort of disgusting joke. 

Oh, and whenever someone posted a question about a concept their kid was struggling with, half the answers were "Just wait! They don't need to understand this yet!" Like... maybe. Maybe it's true that the kid isn't ready. But maybe let's at least try a few different explanations first?? 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

 Well sorry ladies, but as it looks to me from were I am sitting, yes, those grades should be questioned for the majority of kids. 

Lol, yeah, I don't expect colleges to take these grades as seriously. I mean, frankly... I expect colleges in general do look at where a kid is coming from. An A from a school they know is worth a lot more than an A from a school from a failing school district. 

Anyway, there's a reason I've been having DD8 do math contests 😛 . I figure if she qualifies for the USAMO, that'll look good on her college application 😛 . (And practice taking tests is a good idea, period.) 

[lewelma]

5 hours ago, Rosemary said:

All that to say, I was grateful to find WTM forum. I don’t feel like such an outsider here for taking my kids’ education seriously or for thinking that they need more than 30 minutes of school each day. I suspect that other new homeschoolers who aren’t a fan of the Facebook advice will end up here as well.

You guys are so welcome here. We certainly don't all agree, but we do take academics seriously.  Even the unschoolers that frequent this board take education serious, just not 'school' work. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

9 minutes ago, lewelma said:

You guys are so welcome here. We certainly don't all agree, but we do take academics seriously.  Even the unschoolers that frequent this board take education serious, just not 'school' work. 

There are unschoolers and unschoolers, anyway 😉 . No one on here is an unparent...

[Wheres Toto]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Got it. Sounds better, anyway. 

 

I've never seen a single good math discussion, though. I couldn't get any bites for any math questions 😞 . 

 

1 hour ago, MissLemon said:

In my opinion, many of the people in that group have an "Eeeew, math is hard and gross!" mindset. It is where I consistently heard "Just bake with them! That's all they need!" for math advice, and that was a few years ago. 

Yeah, this.   Math is hard and impossible, science (my thing!) is gross and icky and can't we just watch videos instead of doing labs for high school student who wants to go into a STEM career?  

It seems like a LOT of homeschool moms have English degrees or History degrees or were Elementary Ed teachers.   STEM is pretty well represented here at WTM but seems rare in the general homeschool world.   

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

STEM is pretty well represented here at WTM but seems rare in the general homeschool world.   

Yeah, agreed. 

I know a few homeschooling moms in real life who are mathy. But come to think of it... they are all Eastern European immigrants. 

[Shoeless]

Just now, Wheres Toto said:

 

Yeah, this.   Math is hard and impossible, science (my thing!) is gross and icky and can't we just watch videos instead of doing labs for high school student who wants to go into a STEM career?  

It seems like a LOT of homeschool moms have English degrees or History degrees or were Elementary Ed teachers.   STEM is pretty well represented here at WTM but seems rare in the general homeschool world.   

❤️ Where have you been all my homeschooling life? ❤️  I noticed this, too.  It's probably because you can't b.s. your way through math or science. You either know it or you don't.   

[Not_a_Number]

10 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

❤️ Where have you been all my homeschooling life? ❤️  I noticed this, too.  It's probably because you can't b.s. your way through math or science. You either know it or you don't.   

Doesn't stop people from trying, though... 

It seems pretty unfair on the kids, to be honest. I mean, I do wish I had history expertise that I didn't, and I'm sure I can't make history come alive the way a history major can, but thinking that something basic and fundamental like math is gross is a real disservice to the kids. It doesn't even give them a CHANCE to like it. 

Even if I didn't like reading, I would be able to just get my kids books if they loved to read. But I don't think math has simple remedies like that. If you hate math as a homeschooling parent, and you aren't willing to teach it and communicate to your child that it's bad... that really does set them back. 

[Happy2BaMom]

Ds is a senior at our local ps this year, completing the IB Diploma program. Dh and I (along with ds) felt strongly that ps was the *only* choice after 8th grade, not because we didn't believe in hsing high school, but because, by the end of middle school, the standards in the local homeschool groups were so low, that all of us feared that ds would be pulled down by them.

Flash forward 3+ years. There have definitely been minuses as well as pluses, but ds has thrived academically and done fine/OK socially at ps. He has worked far, far harder than I know he would have at home. Yes, there can be negative peer pressure in high school (of course), but there can also be positive peer pressure. A *lot* of kids at our local high school (which is Title 1, BTW) are completing AP or IB classes or dual enrollment credit, and some of the so-called Voc Tech options at the local center are pretty mind-blowing in their creativity & skills mentorship. This peer updraft (so to speak) has been really important for ds.

I completely & utterly support having an option to homeschool high school - it's a lifesaver for some kids - but I feel really bad for other kids who are left helpless by an inadequate home education & preparation. Yes, ps does that, too, but I think it's worse when it's a deliberate choice by the parents (which is what it is).

[lewelma]

11 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

It's probably because you can't b.s. your way through math or science. You either know it or you don't.   

LOL, this made me think of my older boy who told me last week that he was very surprised that he got 6/6 on a physics problem that he completely made up the answer for. I guess he has good intuition. 🙂 

[Happy2BaMom]

On 1/1/2021 at 6:35 PM, MissLemon said:

Not really? They know that they are not in a great situation and reached out to a trusted adult for help. I started to tear up as I got more details because the only way the kids will be able to get out of this mess is with significant help from adults plus a bunch of cash. The kids just hang out and play video games at home. They don't have friends (the parents never bothered to take them to activities where they'd meet people). No jobs. No verifiable education. No money of their own. They finally got drivers licenses because the trusted adult stepped in and helped them do that, (against the parents wishes).

The kids asked "So, what's going to happen to us?" 😭 It's beyond heartbreaking.  They know something is very wrong but they have no idea how to fix it. 

And they've had no mentoring in problem solving, self-advocating, public communication, etc.....skills which are necessary, beyond even the whole lack-of-education thing, to solve their problem.

I hope they get the help they need. Drugs &/or suicide attempts are too often solutions for hopeless people.

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

Ds is a senior at our local ps this year, completing the IB Diploma program. Dh and I (along with ds) felt strongly that ps was the *only* choice after 8th grade, not because we didn't believe in hsing high school, but because, by the end of middle school, the standards in the local homeschool groups were so low, that all of us feared that ds would be pulled down by them.

Flash forward 3+ years. There have definitely been minuses as well as pluses, but ds has thrived academically and done fine/OK socially at ps. He has worked far, far harder than I know he would have at home. Yes, there can be negative peer pressure in high school (of course), but there can also be positive peer pressure. A *lot* of kids at our local high school (which is Title 1, BTW) are completing AP or IB classes or dual enrollment credit, and some of the so-called Voc Tech options at the local center are pretty mind-blowing in their creativity & skills mentorship. This peer updraft (so to speak) has been really important for ds.

I completely & utterly support having an option to homeschool high school - it's a lifesaver for some kids - but I feel really bad for other kids who are left helpless by an inadequate home education & preparation. Yes, ps does that, too, but I think it's worse when it's a deliberate choice by the parents (which is what it is).

I also think there's a key point about homeschoolers sending their kids to high school, which is that the kids are WELL AWARE that homeschooling is a possibility. So I would think there's less of a sense of "I have to suffer through this" and more of the sense of "This is what made sense for me at this point in my life." At least I hope so... 

Our current plan is to send DD8 to high school, although I think we'll have to find a high school that's willing to let her take college classes some of the time. (She's almost doing high school math already. I don't know what she'll be doing by grade 9, but it won't be something done in the high school building.) 

We'll see what happens, of course... if she turns out to need to work on her own, I'll be happy to homeschooler her, too. But we're also very worried about the peer group. 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[lewelma]

Interesting that the only people who have ever been impressed with my homeschooling through high school were my ds's friends at MIT.  They were gobsmacked that I taught him all subjects all grades except Mandarin and Violin. All others, both family and friends, just haven't stopped and thought about how much I have had to do to pull it off.  People think highschool is low level, or homeschooling is easy, or teens can teach themselves.  Very few people actually think about what a good education looks like. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, lewelma said:

Interesting that the only people who have ever been impressed with my homeschooling through high school were my ds's friends at MIT.  They were gobsmacked that I taught him all subjects all grades except Mandarin and Violin. All others, both family and friends, just haven't stopped and thought about how much I have had to do to pull it off.  People think highschool is low level, or homeschooling is easy, or teens can teach themselves.  Very few people actually think about what a good education looks like. 

To be fair, those people are hard to impress!! So at least you've impressed some pretty unimpressionable people... 

[Shoeless]

37 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

And they've had no mentoring in problem solving, self-advocating, public communication, etc.....skills which are necessary, beyond even the whole lack-of-education thing, to solve their problem.

I hope they get the help they need. Drugs &/or suicide attempts are too often solutions for hopeless people.

Very true. I told the spouse of the trusted adult that these kids would likely require a degree of handholding typical of younger students. It won't be enough to say "work hard" and wish them well. They need a lot of help in a lot of areas. 

[BusyMom5]

56 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

Ds is a senior at our local ps this year, completing the IB Diploma program. Dh and I (along with ds) felt strongly that ps was the *only* choice after 8th grade, not because we didn't believe in hsing high school, but because, by the end of middle school, the standards in the local homeschool groups were so low, that all of us feared that ds would be pulled down by them.

Flash forward 3+ years. There have definitely been minuses as well as pluses, but ds has thrived academically and done fine/OK socially at ps. He has worked far, far harder than I know he would have at home. Yes, there can be negative peer pressure in high school (of course), but there can also be positive peer pressure. A *lot* of kids at our local high school (which is Title 1, BTW) are completing AP or IB classes or dual enrollment credit, and some of the so-called Voc Tech options at the local center are pretty mind-blowing in their creativity & skills mentorship. This peer updraft (so to speak) has been really important for ds.

I completely & utterly support having an option to homeschool high school - it's a lifesaver for some kids - but I feel really bad for other kids who are left helpless by an inadequate home education & preparation. Yes, ps does that, too, but I think it's worse when it's a deliberate choice by the parents (which is what it is).

I could go the other direction- homeschooling was the only choice for my kids bc our local public school offers so little and the teachers (mostly) aren't any better than I am!  Smart kids in poor rural schools really lack resources.  I may let a few of them try it if they really want to,  but so far they all prefer to stay at home and then go to the CC a hour away.  I have smart, sometimes 'gifted' kids and PS just wasn't enough depth in any subject.  Our homeschool coop isn't any better, but I'm trying!  Once Covid is under control I'll teach the high school class again.  

I do know there are several families that don't teach much past 6th grade level in anything.   I wish they would just put them in school!  My belief is that if you homeschool you must at least teach as well as your local school- if your kid has a LD and isn't at grade level, you need to at least have them where they would be in PS.   I've held myself accountable to this and tried my best!  My oldest is a Senior,  great ACT and is a NMSF!  I don't think my public school has ever had one- ever!  There is one other NM kid in my county this year, and none in the neighboring counties!  

HSing high school has had its downside- not many clubs (our HS will not let her join), not as many fun social things (and Covid pretty much ended that as soon as she finally got involved in a few), not many friends.  I know my labs weren't the best, but they were about the same as our HS.  Math was better IMO - our school doesn't even offer anything past Algebra 2- then kids can do DE.  If we had a better PS, I would consider it bc its a lot of work!

[Shoeless]

On 1/1/2021 at 10:46 PM, BusyMom5 said:

Many times I see a very vague question-  What math program should I get for my 3rd grader- no additional info.  Answers will vary from cooking, MUS, Beast and everything in-between!  Or a particular program is repeatedly suggested for every kid, regardless of needs of teacher or kiddo.  If I ask for advice, I try to give as much back info as possible.   I don't want a blanket answer, I'm looking to specific experiences with a kid like mine!  I don't think many homeschoolers even realize how different kids learn.  

It seems like people simply respond with what their "favorite" program is, without thinking more about why it's their favorite. And like you said, people also don't give enough background info. I see questions like "What's THE BEST curriculum for 3rd grade math?" What does that even mean?

On 1/2/2021 at 6:34 AM, Quill said:

I have wondered that before but I personally left them for the wolves. I am so over trying to save people from their own ignorance on Facebook, on a multitude of issues. It is a colossal waste of time. 

I'm coming around to this idea. I spent a few minutes this morning removing myself from some groups that seem to be overrun with kindergarten teachers/parents who can't get their head around the idea that the kids WILL grow and change. Easy breasy, play-based curriculum is wonderful for littles, but they don't stay little forever. 

[Wheres Toto]

It drives me crazy on local groups where people ask for recommendations and everyone just starts throwing out suggestions without asking the most basic questions.   If I can get on quick enough, I'll ask:  do you want secular or religious?  Online, textbook, workbook, living books?  Were you in/planning to return to public school?  Working on level?  Any learning challenges?  

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Wheres Toto said:

It drives me crazy on local groups where people ask for recommendations and everyone just starts throwing out suggestions without asking the most basic questions.   If I can get on quick enough, I'll ask:  do you want secular or religious?  Online, textbook, workbook, living books?  Were you in/planning to return to public school?  Working on level?  Any learning challenges?  

Sometimes when I ask those questions, people don't even answer. It's like they WANT the one word answers. "OK, Singapore, got it! I'm buying it!" 

[Roadrunner]

Also people ignore foundational skills. For example, here buying a 7 year programming course is an education. When I point out their time will be better spent on solid mathematics at this age, I get scolded. I guess that’s not sexy enough. But putting a confused 7 year on computer for hours to move some blocks is so progressive. For Zeus’s sake, go pour your effort into solid math and reading/writing skills. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Also people ignore foundational skills. For example, here buying a 7 year programming course is an education. When I point out their time will be better spent on solid mathematics at this age, I get scolded. I guess that’s not sexy enough. But putting a confused 7 year on computer for hours to move some blocks is so progressive. For Zeus’s sake, go pour your effort into solid math and reading/writing skills. 

DH looked into "early programming" stuff for kids and said that it was basically colorful junk. (He was a serious programmer in an earlier, pre-mathematician life.) 

We just did math until DD8 understood variables well and then started her on Python, lol. Amazingly, she didn't feel the lack of "visual for loops." 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Also people ignore foundational skills. For example, here buying a 7 year programming course is an education. When I point out their time will be better spent on solid mathematics at this age, I get scolded. I guess that’s not sexy enough. But putting a confused 7 year on computer for hours to move some blocks is so progressive. For Zeus’s sake, go pour your effort into solid math and reading/writing skills. 

I've always thought of myself as half an unschooler because I really only care about foundational stuff at this age. I want to give them the tools to teach themselves, basically. That means math, reading, critical thinking, thinking about other people... and yes, "common knowledge" facts about the world/history/geography/whatever. 

But apparently, that's weird. Lots of "unschoolers" scoff at the foundational stuff and just do "fun" stuff. 

[Hilltopmom]

Interesting about the English degrees- most of the homeschooling moms in our local group back in the day are all Science/Math people- Biology degrees, Earth Science, teachers, an actual rocket scientist, engineers, Math majors, a few computer programmers...

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Hilltopmom

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

DH looked into "early programming" stuff for kids and said that it was basically colorful junk. (He was a serious programmer in an earlier, pre-mathematician life.) 

We just did math until DD8 understood variables well and then started her on Python, lol. Amazingly, she didn't feel the lack of "visual for loops." 

Yes. You have a gifted 8 year old with a real programming teacher (your DH). We are talking about typical 8 year olds sitting on that colorful junk for hours while their parents are neglecting elementary education. Instead they are bragging that their 7-8 year olds are “programming.” 🙄 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

Yes. You have a gifted 8 year old with a real programming teacher (your DH). We are talking about typical 8 year olds sitting on that colorful junk for hours while their parents are neglecting elementary education. Instead they are bragging that their 7-8 year olds are “programming.” 🙄 

Oh yeah, I'm agreeing with you, lol. People call all sorts of nonsense STEM. 

Guess what? You can't DO any real STEM without getting basic math down. 

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

Interesting about the English degrees- most of the homeschooling moms in our local group back in the day are all Science/Math people- Biology degrees, Earth Science, teachers, an actual rocket scientist, engineers, Math majors, a few computer programmers...

Sigh. I want to join your former group. I'll just travel back in time 😛 . 

[Shoeless]

10 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Yes. You have a gifted 8 year old with a real programming teacher (your DH). We are talking about typical 8 year olds sitting on that colorful junk for hours while their parents are neglecting elementary education. Instead they are bragging that their 7-8 year olds are “programming.” 🙄 

Or they talk about how they want to teach their kids "coding", and buy a fun robot toy you can "program" to turn when you push a button. 

[Wheres Toto]

Yeah, at that age if they are interested you can just let them play around with it on their own once they're done with doing actual school work. 

Although, I do offer Scratch, Scratch Jr and Python classes.  My kid just never needed them. 😉

[wathe]

52 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Or they talk about how they want to teach their kids "coding", and buy a fun robot toy you can "program" to turn when you push a button. 

My kids love Scratch.  But for us, it's not school; it's a free time activity.  They do learn quite a lot with it - I treat it as a species of creative play.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, MissLemon said:

Or they talk about how they want to teach their kids "coding", and buy a fun robot toy you can "program" to turn when you push a button. 

My mom bought us a robot you can program 😄 . You can make do stuff and whatnot. We've played with it -- it's very cool. 

I'm also a close to professional level programmer. I've looked at it. I would be extremely surprised if it's teaching kids much of anything about programming. 

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

You can't DO any real STEM without getting basic math down. 

I will have to argue with you a little bit.  Younger ds really struggles with mathematical science which has to do with his dysgraphia -- encoding ideas into math is still quite difficult. We spent the entire year doing organic chemistry to build up his science skills and stall for another year on putting the math overlay in.  You can do a LOT of organic chemistry without needing math.