I think Cindy and Angelina only allow AO to be recommended on their Facebook page (at least that’s how it was in the past…I’m not on there anymore, so I don’t know if that’s changed). They see AO as the standard, and they often quote Charlotte Mason’s idea about giving children the best books, which they would define as the best-written books. I’m not familiar with the Facebook incident you mentioned, but based on things they’ve said on their podcasts (in general, not about the Alveary in particular), I would suspect that it wasn’t just one book that they had a problem with. I think it probably has more to do with the way the Alveary is choosing books in general. Just looking through the Alveary’s videos, I do see a difference in their recommendations versus Ambleside’s. The Alveary seems to choose at least some books based on the illustrations or because they look fun, where AO is more concerned with always giving kids the very best written language, regardless of the appearance of the book. The two groups are prioritizing different things. I think Cindy and Angelina would say the Alveary’s “fun” book choices are okay for free time but they wouldn’t consider them appropriate for school, at least not for literature class. If you really want to understand Cindy’s thinking about this, listen to her podcasts about the Building Blocks of Stories. I think that might give you some insight on why she prefers certain curricula over others. I don’t know a lot about the Alveary, but it doesn’t appeal to me personally because I like to choose my own books and create my own reading lists, and I want to be able to reuse books for my younger kids. The Alveary has new book lists every year, so that wouldn’t work well for me. That being said, if the Alveary appeals to you, go for it. There’s nothing wrong with trying it out to see if you like it.

….

…

Has anyone else experienced this situation—a child with learning challenges sandwiched between gifted siblings? How did you handle the emotional needs of the child with learning disabilities while still allowing the siblings to progress at the faster rate that they needed? Are there things I can do now while they are young to make this easier as time goes on? I know there are other boards for learning challenges and accelerated learners, but I didn’t know which of them to choose for this situation.

In my area, most people are using either TGTB or Abeka. It does surprise me how little thought many parents seem to give to their curriculum choices. For a while I assumed this was because I live in a lower SES area and moms might have fewer resources for researching curriculum. But then I came across a homeschooling thread in a Facebook group for moms in my STEM field, and they were also saying things like, “My sister uses TGTB, so I use it too.” Out of the dozens of responses to that thread, I was the only one who mentioned that there were different types of reading and math curricula and that your choice might depend on your kid. Everyone else was just using what a friend or relative had recommended to them. Maybe it goes back to the old marketing advice that word of mouth is the best advertisement.

We use written narration for this. The child tells the story in his own words, including any insights or connections he made. Comprehension questions are a way for classroom teachers to evaluate students because they don’t have the time to talk to each student individually. As such, they often fall into a few categories: 1. They ask overly simplistic questions with one right answer to ensure that the child read the story. 2. They direct the child into reducing a complex story to a single moral. 3. They tell the child that a character made a bad choice and then ask the child what he would have done in that character’s shoes. Maybe the child would’ve made the same choice? He isn’t going to tell the teacher that! 4. They claim to be “going deep” when they’re really just asking questions that are over the child’s head. I’ve seen questions in elementary literature guides that could be thesis topics. This is not an exhaustive list, just a few types of commonly asked bad questions. All of these questions lead to the child looking for “the right answer,” what she thinks the teacher wants to hear, which, at the very least, doesn’t produce good writing, if that is the goal. The best comprehension questions I’ve seen in literature guides are things like “Describe the cottage” or “Describe Jill.” But those are likely to come up naturally in a narration, and if they don’t, they’re easy enough to ask. They aren’t the sort of questions you need a literature guide for. I agree with you that writing prompts about the child’s own experiences don’t typically lead to good writing. I think asking them to write about something they’re interested in is better. I would consider that to be separate from writing about literature though. For literature, I think narration is usually the best route because the child is just describing things, not looking for correct answers or trying to make judgements on things he doesn’t fully understand. In An Experiment in Criticism, CS Lewis talks about how good readers are able to enter into a story, set aside their judgments, and receive the story as it is. That way they aren’t seeing things in the story that aren’t really there, such as their own biases. I think most comprehension questions are doing the opposite. They are directing the child to make certain judgments or simplifications to the story. That doesn’t produce good readers or good writers.

Yes. I’m not advocating literary analysis for elementary ages. I’m saying the opposite, that you should just read the books and talk about them, mostly with narration. The books I’m recommending are for parents to educate themselves so they don’t feel that they need to buy literature guides from curriculum companies, not because I think they should be teaching literary criticism to elementary children. It’s the same concept as learning upper level math so you can teach your young children better. You aren’t going to teach them high school math (unless they’re very gifted), but you will be able to teach the basics better because you understand where the subject is headed. It also gives parents more confidence in making curriculum choices. Thanks for mentioning this. I added a note above so that hopefully others will better understand my intent.

Nm

As people are making curriculum choices for next year, I’ve seen some questions about literature guides. If you’re on the fence about whether to buy them, as many parents seem to be, I want to reassure you that it is ok to not use literature guides in the elementary years (or ever—but I’ll focus on elementary-age kids here). I think many parents sense that literature guides are not instilling a love for literature in their kids—they may even feel that the guides are pushing their kids away from a love of reading—but they worry that they don’t know enough about literature to teach their kids on their own. I’m going to offer a bit of unsolicited advice—don’t let curriculum companies play on your insecurities. You don’t have to have an English degree to teach your child literature, and you don’t have to use literature guides either. I think many people understand that math curricula that push algorithms and memorization are not typically going to develop a love of math or a deep understanding of it in a student. Literature guides (at least the ones I’ve seen, and I’ve looked around quite a bit) are the equivalent of algorithm-based math. They will not help your child love books or develop a deep understanding of stories. Elementary-age kids do not need to understand a lot of literary terms. They need to read (or hear) lots of stories so they learn to love books and understand how stories work. Rather than using literature guides, it’s ok to just read the books and discuss them. By discussion, I don't mean teaching them literary analysis. I mean talking about what happened in the story and whether it reminded them of other stories they've read. This can be at a very basic level. However, I think some parents worry that they can't talk about books at even a basic level because they didn't get a great education in literature themselves. I want to encourage those parents that they can develop their own knowledge without literature guides or pricey teaching courses. Here are some books that have helped me to educate myself about literature. I want to emphasize that these books are for parents to improve their own understanding of literature, not for them to discuss with their elementary-aged children. Kids just need to read and narrate. But if you're wanting to learn more about literature for your own benefit, these books may be helpful. C.S. Lewis was regarded as the most well-read person of his time, and many people forget that he was primarily an academic and that his roles as theologian and fiction writer were secondary to that. His scholarly essays and books were a good starting point for me. An Experiment in Criticism by CS Lewis Tending the Heart of Virtue by Vigen Guroian The Educated Imagination by Northrop Frye Hard Times by Charles Dickens On Fairy-Stories by JRR Tolkien How to Read the Bible as Literature by Leland Ryken A Preface to Paradise Lost by CS Lewis (I’m rereading this one right now, and it has a lot of information about epic poetry in general, not just Paradise Lost.) Another helpful book when it comes to discussing literature with your children is Know and Tell by Karen Glass. I know I’ve recommended that book here several times, but if you want to break away from workbooks and literature guides, this is the best resource I’ve seen on how to do that. I hope my post is seen in the spirit that it is intended—as a genuine desire to help in an area where many parents seem confused and overwhelmed. I think many of us are here on the forum because the spirit of classical education appeals to us, but much of that beauty gets lost in our modern culture’s attempts to systematize education, and, sadly, many classical curriculum companies play into that because they sell what we are used to: step-by-step packages that provide knowledge in bite-sized pieces. If that’s all we know, that’s all we will seek, even if we sense that something is amiss. But I want to encourage parents that there are alternatives out there, and that you can teach your child about beautiful literature without a guide or a degree.

I haven’t used any of these but just wanted to throw out the suggestion that you could take the elements you like of each curriculum and create your own. You could start with the areas where there is overlap among the curricula, the books that are recommended by more than one of the book lists you are looking at, and go from there. The temptation in doing this (at least for me) is to want to do it all, so I have to be realistic about what we can actually accomplish in a year. But creating your own curriculum could lessen your FOMO, along with removing the elements in each of these that you already know you don’t like or don’t want to do.

I think this is a good point, although I’ve never seen it mentioned in the Memoria Press materials we’ve used. What are the classroom teachers adding to the lessons? Are the extras recommended by MP, or are the teachers coming up with them on their own? Perhaps I’m missing some context—maybe the “fun” materials were inferior because they had poor-quality content and the girl was doing well to recognize that—but minus that sort of detail, I don’t view this story as illustrating a positive attribute in a child. Rather, it reminds me of Eustace Scrubb in the Narnia books. I think it might be helpful to define “joy-sucking.” What I mean by that is material that focuses primarily on facts without room for creativity or imagination. An example would be a math book that focuses only on procedural learning, algorithms and memorization, without room for playing with concepts. All of the problems in each lesson are worked exactly the same way. It’s math without the beauty. Another example would be a grammar curriculum that only provides stilted sentences as exercises for students, and never shows the complex language that would be seen in a well-written book. I think it’s fine to use a more “stilted” sentence as an introduction to the concept, but when all of the exercises in the lesson are simply variations on that same sentence, where is the beauty of language? Personally I do not think the final question comes down to what a child knows at the end, but to how much they care about what they know. Yes, hard work and memorization are important aspects of education, but what do those matter if the child has never had her imagination captured by any of it? Please don’t misconstrue what I’m saying—I understand that test scores and challenging classes can be important for getting into college and finding employment. But if those things, in and of themselves, are the ultimate end-goal, what kind of adult will that produce? Charles Dickens explores this idea in his book Hard Times. Does every single aspect of a child’s education have to be joyous and imaginative? Of course not. That would be impossible. But should we try to introduce them to beauty where we can? I think it’s a worthy goal. My concern with “joy-sucking” materials is that if a child only sees those sorts of “facts without beauty” lessons for a single subject, year after year, they will never develop an enjoyment or appreciation for that subject. I think this could be why many adults dislike math and grammar—they were only taught the facts about them and were never introduced to their playful or creative sides.

If you’re interested in narration, I highly recommend Karen Glass’s book Know and Tell. I think there are a lot of misconceptions about narration, and this book explains the process of narration as CM intended it, along with appropriate expectations for different age groups.

We’ve used Latina Prima. It was okay, though somewhat dry and boring. We ditched the workbook pretty quickly but continued with the videos and flashcards. We’ve also used Minimus and University of Dallas’s Latin Through Stories, and we found both of those to be far more enjoyable. I think we’ve retained the most with Latin Through Stories. It uses songs and stories but no workbook. (Edited for accuracy: Latin Through Stories does have an optional workbook for older kids, but we haven’t used it yet.) I bought some used MP literature guides a couple of years ago, thinking they might be helpful for vocabulary, etc. But I found them to be exactly as you described: joy-sucking. I don’t use any literature guides now—just read and narrate. I find that our discussions are better when we’re talking about something the kids have noticed on their own instead of trying to answer someone else’s scripted questions. I do like to look at MP’s book lists though. The books they choose are typically well-written and engaging.

I haven’t used those specific editions of Singapore, so I can’t answer your question exactly. I am using Primary 2022 right now, though, and I would say that, for this edition, I’ve found the teacher’s guide to be much more helpful than the HIG. It’s in color, and it has pictures of the student’s pages in the book, which is nice for teaching lessons. It also explains the concepts better and shows the progression of skills that are being taught. I found the Primary 2022 HIG to be essentially an answer key, without much guidance for the parent. I know the editions vary, though, so maybe others will weigh in on their experiences with those you mentioned. If you’re struggling with teaching Singapore math in general, though, there is a book written for teachers that you may find helpful, regardless of which Singapore edition you use. It’s called Elementary Mathematics for Teachers. It goes through the major concepts taught in elementary math and explains different approaches to teaching each concept. I think it is helpful for teaching any math curriculum, but it is specifically geared toward Singapore math. It is a little expensive to buy new, but I found a used copy that was reasonably priced. https://www.amazon.com/Elementary-Mathematics-Teachers-Thomas-Parker/dp/0974814008/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=216CSJVUTAO4H&keywords=elementary+mathematics+for+teachers&qid=1702984836&sprefix=elementary+mathematics+f%2Caps%2C147&sr=8-1

…

If you listen to podcasts, Susan Wise Bauer’s new podcast “The Well-Trained Mind” had an episode this week about copywork and how it leads to better writing. They also talked a bit about narration.

I would consider summarization that includes personal thoughts to be narration. I’m not sure that we’re disagreeing so much as using different terminology. I think I understand your italicized point for high school, but I also can see how longer essays could spring from a narration or summary. How do you assign essays? Are they based on your kids’ discussions or summaries about what they’re learning? I agree with you that following AO exactly as written is not in the best interest of many kids, although I have found their website helpful for organizing myself and choosing books. I use it as a resource, for inspiration, but I do that with several other curricula too, some that are CM and some that aren’t. Then I choose the books I think will work best for my kids in my homeschool. I find that following any particular curriculum to the letter is rather stifling and doesn’t serve me or my kids well. I think there are good things about AO, such as their book lists for literature and history (although not always for the year they recommend), but I also think they don’t know what they don’t know when it comes to math and science. I don’t hear people talk about Mater Amabilis much, but it is a CM curriculum that, in my opinion, has better suggestions for science (at least for elementary age. I’m not as familiar with their upper levels.) I also agree with you that serving an ideology rather than educating a child is not a good thing. However, I believe that there are educational principles that are timeless and true. I don’t think Charlotte Mason was right about everything (as I’ve said repeatedly), but she articulated many of the things that have gone wrong in modern education and provided principles that can help us think through our attempts to do better. While many things can be adapted for the child in front of us, some things are objectively True, and there are better practices and worse practices.

I guess I’m sort of confused too. I wasn’t talking about Cornell Notes or worksheets. I apologize if I was unclear. I’ll try to condense what I was saying and maybe it will make more sense. 1. Narration is more than just regurgitation. It combines many skills, including storytelling and summarizing, but it leaves room for notice and wonder, where a strict summary of information would not (and there is a place for strict summarization—it’s just not the same as narration). It also gives the student an opportunity to process the information by retelling it. 2. Sometimes narration doesn’t go well because the teacher is inadvertently asking leading questions to the student, so the student is focused on finding the “right” answer or the “main” idea, rather than just telling what she noticed. 3. Narration is a life skill that can be improved with practice. I’ve described how my husband uses it in his job and how I use it with my own reading. If you tell your friend about a movie you watched or a book you read, that’s oral narration. If you write to your friend about it in an email or a text, that’s written narration. People don’t always call it that, but it is something we all do, and it’s something we can always get better at. That’s why I said we can’t outgrow it. I agree with you that many people in the CM world don’t understand what it takes to succeed in college, especially in STEM fields. I’m not blaming them—I think they truly don’t understand because it isn’t something they’ve experienced personally. But I don’t think we need to throw out everything Charlotte Mason said because some people haven’t implemented it well in 21st century America. Much of what she wrote was based on the classical tradition of education, and I think there’s room to combine that with practical college preparation.

Do you think you have dyslexia or some other learning difference? Or do you feel like you just didn’t get a great education in language arts? I’ve heard this advice for parents who feel out of their element when it comes to literature (or any other subject), so I’ll pass it along in case you find it helpful: Pick a curriculum that you like for the upper years, start reading their 7th grade booklist, and then work your way up from there. By the time you finish, you’ll have a great education, and you’ll be prepared to help your kids when they get to that stage.

I feel like we’re using different definitions of narration. Narration is telling back what you’ve read, but it’s also where the work of learning happens. Telling what you’ve read in your own words can be harder than answering someone else’s questions about it. It’s also different than simple summarization because the student is forming a relationship with the knowledge, not just looking for key points. The main difference between Charlotte Mason’s approach to narration and some other styles I’ve seen is that in CM narration the teacher isn’t supposed to give much direction to the conversation. Kids are going to notice things in the text that the teacher didn’t, which isn’t a lack of learning on the teacher’s part. It’s just human nature that we’re going to be drawn to different parts of the story, and by giving the child room to say those things, you’re allowing them to grow. Asking leading questions or asking for the main idea are approaches that will interfere with their own process of making connections because then they’re looking for “the right answer.” Looking for main ideas and key points is analytical knowledge that, honestly, isn’t that hard to acquire. Narration is about developing the person though. It’s about the child figuring out on her own that Aslan is Jesus without you telling her. In high school, maybe it would be reading Dracula and noticing the references to other sources, seeing how JK Rowling drew on it in Harry Potter, finding Biblical allusions. Narration isn’t something that leads straight to college note-taking, although it can help with that. It is learning to summarize in a way that makes you more human. I also don’t think it’s an either/or situation with research papers and narration. You can do both, and I think you should. Narration is just the daily discussion of what they’ve been reading, even in the upper years. You are correct that my oldest is 9, but we are discussing timeless educational principles, not my own ideas. Many homeschoolers with grown children talk about using narration with all ages. There are different ways of doing it with high schoolers, but I think the most common is that they have a list of assignments that they’re supposed to read that day, so they narrate orally to the teacher about all of them but one. For the last one, they write about it instead of telling orally. I think it could be viewed as a daily writing exercise. It isn’t something that should take up a lot of time. There should still be plenty of time for learning to write essays and reports.

I feel like there are some misconceptions out there about narration. It isn’t just repeating back whatever was in the reading. It is a means for children (or adults) to process what they’re learning. They are personalizing the new knowledge by putting it in their own words and connecting it to previously acquired knowledge. Written narrations can be simple retellings in the earlier years, but as students get older, written narrations should become more mature. They should be bringing other ideas into their writing—what did this remind me of, where have I seen this pattern before, how does this connect to other topics I’m learning about? It is also intended to help them develop a substantive, natural writing style before they begin shaping their writing to fit a particular form. I honestly don’t think anyone can outgrow written narration. I still find it helpful myself if I’m trying to process my thoughts on a book, particularly if the plot or subject matter are complex. My husband has been very much on board with teaching our kids narration. He says that he essentially narrates for a living. A major component of his job is reading complex material, processing the information, and then retelling it, either orally or in written form, to others. He likes that our kids are learning this at a young age because he encounters so many people who do it poorly. Narration is a skill that anyone can acquire and improve on, but it does take practice. I agree with those who say that kids should be taught how to write essays and reports before they go to college. I’ve seen people recommend teaching only written narration before college, with the idea that professors will teach students everything they need to know about writing in particular forms once they get there. That idea seems extreme, and I don’t know how many follow it in practice. In my opinion, it is unfair to the student. Yes, if they’re bright, they can learn to write an essay in college, but it’s certainly easier if they have some previous experience.

Know and Tell is a great resource. Since written narration isn’t recommended until 4th or 5th grade, kids will be doing oral narration and copywork for some time before they attempt written narration. It’s a gradual process. They hear and see examples of good writing in read alouds, their own reading, and copywork, and they soak that in for a few years before they begin writing their own narrations. It is slow, but the idea is that good writers have to first be good readers. It takes time to develop mental models of what constitutes good writing, and those slower years in the beginning are providing them with that. Copywork isn’t a linear process to students writing their own sentences—it’s more about exposing them to good writing and rich language so that they have something to draw from when they are ready to write. I’ll add one caveat, though, because I find this is an area where I differ from many people in Charlotte Mason circles—I don’t think copywork is sufficient for teaching spelling and grammar. I think most kids still need explicit instruction in those subjects.

Am I remembering correctly that you used to use Memoria Press before switching to CM? MP has so many workbooks and checklists…I wonder if that’s part of the reason that what you’re doing now doesn’t feel like “enough.” With narration, you don’t have that “proof” in a workbook that your kids did something today, so it can feel like you aren’t accomplishing as much. Which isn’t true! But it can feel that way at first. I saw that someone already mentioned Know and Tell by Karen Glass. That’s a great resource.

Nm

I haven’t heard of a narration methodology where the teacher has to write out the student’s words every time, but that sounds stressful. Have you read Know and Tell by Karen Glass? It’s a great book about narration. At age 6, narration would be mostly oral, for the teacher and the student, although the student could draw a picture or act out the story if he chose. Written narration would start around age 9 or 10, but even then, they’re still doing oral narrations most of the time. I don’t want to overwhelm you with suggestions, but I wonder if Charlotte Mason-style narration would feel less stressful to both of you. Another thought: if you feel like you have to write it down, could you just record him talking and then write it down later? Edit: I see that that’s been mentioned above. With copywork, maybe less is more? When I was having the same trouble with my son at ages 6-7, I read somewhere about giving him the least amount of copywork that he could easily do without complaining. That turned out to be just a word or two. So that’s where we started, and as that became easy for him, I added a word or two at a time until he was able to do a couple of sentences without trouble.