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Sign of dyslexia?


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I have a 6 year old, currently in K at a private school.  She is my FD, and has been with us for several years. We are working to get guardianship, and i May homeschool her next year. 
i did some preschool at home with her last year. She is very intelligent, learned her letters and sounds at 3 and has a great memory. However, she has never caught on with the phonics or reading. She has learned some site words and has memorized some small words, but cannot sound anything out. So far, we just chalked it up to her being young, and haven’t been too concerned. But today she used some flash cards and put them together in order  by herself, but completely backwards  from z to a! (See picture below)8FE6D382-372A-41CF-BDB4-166CA22432BE.thumb.jpeg.c77deb1096ca721a1970fabc18866915.jpeg. Could that be an indicator of dyslexia? I looked up some signs of dyslexia online, and she has a few others too: late talker, mixes up words, recurrent ear infections, sensitive to food colors and additives. Should i get her tested? The school has never said anything, but then again it’s pretty relaxed and the teacher is in her first year.  Maybe she doesn’t recognize it? 

 

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I would work on phonemic awareness and blending.

Blending: 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/blendingwords.html

For PA:

http://donpotter.net/pdf/blend_phonics_facial.pdf

https://www.amazon.com/Phonemic-Awareness-Playing-Strengthen-Beginning/dp/1574712314/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=phonemic+awareness&qid=1576361809&sr=8-6

I also like University of Iowa's "Sounds of Speech" app or website for showing the side view of how the sounds are made.

Also, you don't want to teach sight words as wholes, why not and how to teach them with phonics:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/sightwords.html

 

Edited by ElizabethB
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At the very least you should have her *hearing* tested. She's at a private school? Oh dear, so do they work with the public schools to provide evals and an IEP? 

There are recent studies showing that late talkers tend to have subtle language disability issues that are present even when the dc begins talking later. This means she actually needs more evals than just for the reading. I would start with an SLP eval, because the SLP can run tools for phonological processing (the CTOPP or the TILLS) *and* language issues. Don't let them just run the CELF, because it under-identifies kids. The TILLS includes some narrative language testing, or it can be done separately. I really like the SPELT. Just see what you can get.

Is she having issues with phonological processing? That's the thing you're looking for. Reversals indicate neurological immaturity, and you already know that's possibly going on from the late talking. Has her left/right handedness solidified or is she going back and forth between hands for things? 

You can't get referrals (to get the evals paid for) without evidence. What do you have evidence of to justify testing? Does she have trouble telling you about her day or about a book you read together? Is her speech intelligible? Can she do age-appropriate phonological processing tasks like rhyming, clapping syllables, or changing words (dog, change the d to h, now hog), etc.? 

She's young enough that *just* one thing isn't enough. But yes, she'll probably have something going on. 

https://bartonreading.com/students/#ss Here's the student screening for Barton. A 5 yo should be able to pass it. This is NOT a test for dyslexia. It's only a test to see if she has the basic, basic skills needed to go into a dyslexia intervention program (OG, Barton, whatever). So failing the screening would be incredibly concerning and I'd be getting her evaled pronto, sure. And given what you described, I'd be getting her hearing checked (it's free at our university) and an SLP eval. There are SLPs who specialize in reading, and they could hit the language and reading screening in one step. And they're less money and faster to get into than the psych. If something is going on, you'll need the psych eval, sure. But the SLP eval may be helpful.

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27 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Is she trying to read from right to left instead of left to right? 

 

That’s an interesting thought!  Was it certain the alphabet tiles went up Z to A from top left corner first—rather than A to Z but starting at bottom right corner and moving left and up. 

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Has anyone actually consistently worked with her on sounding out words?  The reason I ask is that you characterized it as "she has never caught on with the phonics or reading" which makes it sound as though it was all a passive enterprise.  If you have not worked with her systematically on reading, then I would not expect her to be able to sound out words.

As for the backwards alphabet--it looks to me as though she just started in the lower left hand corner and proceeded from there.  It does not look like she went from z to a.  That she knows the order of the alphabet and uses it in her play at age 6 is not typical of children with dyslexia.

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50 minutes ago, EKS said:

As for the backwards alphabet--it looks to me as though she just started in the lower left hand corner and proceeded from there.  It does not look like she went from z to a.  That she knows the order of the alphabet and uses it in her play at age 6 is not typical of children with dyslexia.

 

The more I looked the more I agree that it looks like she started with A in the lower right corner.  

The chances of correctly positioning the Z at start so as to finish with A in the corner seems very unlikely.  

 

 

How much anyone has worked on phonics is a really good question.  A lot of schools are doing other things.  ( Sight words, predictive guessing ..)

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11 hours ago, EKS said:

Has anyone actually consistently worked with her on sounding out words?  The reason I ask is that you characterized it as "she has never caught on with the phonics or reading" which makes it sound as though it was all a passive enterprise.  If you have not worked with her systematically on reading, then I would not expect her to be able to sound out words.

As for the backwards alphabet--it looks to me as though she just started in the lower left hand corner and proceeded from there.  

In school, they might not realize she's doing things from right to left or bottom to top (or even different each time). 

I would start there and reinforce it with things like reading numbers from a calendar, having her point to them in sequence and then start again at the next line on the left. She might need help keeping her place (and getting a vision exam is not a bad thing!). My son would start left to right, get to the end of the line, and then on the next line go right to left, and so on, lol! 

Going the wrong direction likely means she has some problems with executive function (particularly, maybe even recognizing that there is a "right/easier" way to do tasks sometimes). If she has more trouble after some direct work (preferably with you so that you know what's going on), then you might need to consider dyslexia again.

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I agree that it looks like she just started at the bottom, instead of the top, and proceeded in the wrong direction. This doesn't indicate a phonological disability (dyslexia). It could be just a one-time quirky incident, or it could be a sign of organizational issues (executive function). Someone can have EF issues without ADHD, although people with ADHD commonly have EF issues.

Be on the lookout for other EF or attention issues, which are not always as evident with girls. Work with her on the ability to always start her work at the top left hand corner of a page. Work on her with phonics and blending and talk to her teachers at school to see if they are actually teaching phonics or not. There are materials that you can use with her at home to teach reading skills, if her school is not using a phonics-based curriculum.

So there are some skills that you can shore up by working on them at home. I don't see red flags for dyslexia in your post, but if you work with her on phonics and spelling and find that she is having consistent trouble in those areas despite good instruction, you could revisit the idea of a reading disability in the future. Right now, I think there is evidence that she needs more practice and deliberate instruction, but nothing that rises to the level of disability at this point.

Keep an eye on it, though. It's good to see how she progresses in both her reading and her attention. And a vision exam is a great idea, if she has not had one.

Edited by Storygirl
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Thanks so much for all the replies and input! I agree with some posters, who said it looks like she started with A and went to Z, just in the wrong direction.  So hopefully it is just a form of mirror writing, which is not a huge cause for concern at her age.  I have worked with her in phonics for the last 2 years.   We did a preschool/kindergarten combo last year at home, and now do some after schooling with her on the weekends.  Although she knows her letter sounds, she can't blend those skills to make words.  Maybe she just needs more time? I'm going to ask her teacher and principal if they have noticed anything and see what their opinion is.  

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2 hours ago, charlotteb said:

Although she knows her letter sounds, she can't blend those skills to make words.  Maybe she just needs more time?

That's what testing is for. They can run a CTOPP and tell you directly, objectively whether her phonological processing is age appropriate. 

The public school in your district of residence is required, by federal law, to identify students with disabilities. If she is not age-appropriate in her phonological processing, that is plenty of evidence. You make a written request to the ps and compel them to test her. It will be free. If you can make testing happen privately, that's fine too. But if free is your pricepoint, the ps can be compelled to do it. You just have to stay on them to get them to run the right tests.

On the "needs a little more time" here's a chart from SLPs https://littlebeespeech.com/resources/pdf/phonological_processes.pdf  You can go through each thing in the chart, but no waiting is not probably the issue. This chart will give you the terms so you can be very precise about what you're saying the problem is. (she can do this, she can't do that)

https://bartonreading.com/students/#ss  See if she passes/fails this. If she fails it, you have a problem. It takes about 15 minutes to administer. If you do it, you can come back here with the results.

 

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7 hours ago, charlotteb said:

Thanks so much for all the replies and input! I agree with some posters, who said it looks like she started with A and went to Z, just in the wrong direction.  So hopefully it is just a form of mirror writing, which is not a huge cause for concern at her age.  I have worked with her in phonics for the last 2 years.   We did a preschool/kindergarten combo last year at home, and now do some after schooling with her on the weekends.  Although she knows her letter sounds, she can't blend those skills to make words.  Maybe she just needs more time? I'm going to ask her teacher and principal if they have noticed anything and see what their opinion is.  

Before blending they need the ability to hear separate sounds in words and manipulate them in their head. 

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Here's an easier chart It shows what skills will be present in 80-90% of kids by a given age. So most 5 year olds can clap and count syllables. By 5 1/2 they can produce a rhyme or match words by initial sounds. By age 6 most children can do syllable deletion, blend 2-3 phonemes, etc. 

https://www.readingrockets.org/article/development-phonological-skills

So yes, if op is literally saying the dc cannot blend to sounds she's given (/z/ /oo/ to form zoo), then yes there is an issue and yes it's a concern. But no, asking a teacher is not the way to sort that out. Teachers are ill trained in reading instruction. You want evidence, and that's the CTOPP. The IDA (international dyslexia association) wants kids identified before 1st, so the timing for this question is EXACTLY RIGHT. It's not jumping the gun.

But, you know, look at this chart, see where she's at, what she can do and what she's struggling with.

Edited by PeterPan
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11 hours ago, charlotteb said:

Thanks so much for all the replies and input! I agree with some posters, who said it looks like she started with A and went to Z, just in the wrong direction.  So hopefully it is just a form of mirror writing, which is not a huge cause for concern at her age.  I have worked with her in phonics for the last 2 years.   We did a preschool/kindergarten combo last year at home, and now do some after schooling with her on the weekends.  Although she knows her letter sounds, she can't blend those skills to make words.  Maybe she just needs more time? I'm going to ask her teacher and principal if they have noticed anything and see what their opinion is.  

 

Unless she has been explicitly shown to arrange things from left to right and up to down, it is likely to be a lack of explicit instruction rather than “mirror writing”. 

And unless someone has explicitly shown her how to do blending of sounds that may also be simply lack of instruction. 

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29 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Unless she has been explicitly shown to arrange things from left to right and up to down, it is likely to be a lack of explicit instruction rather than “mirror writing”. 

And unless someone has explicitly shown her how to do blending of sounds that may also be simply lack of instruction. 

I agree.  My post above has links on how to teach blending and a bit about phonemic awareness, without good phonemic awareness, you can't blend.  If phonemic awareness is really bad, you'll need a speech therapist or a specialized program like LiPS, if it's just a bit of a phonemic awareness problem, you can fix it yourself.  My blending page, linked in post above, explains why blending is a hard skill for some students and how and why to teach it explicitly.  

Some students need a lot of explaining and modeling to be able to blend, some need phonemic awareness training and speech therapy, then explaining and modeling of the blending process.

More time generally doesn't work, it just leaves them further behind.  You need to figure out where the problem is and fix it, teaching the missing skills incrementally. 

Edited by ElizabethB
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7 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

I agree.  My post above has links on how to teach blending and a bit about phonemic awareness, without good phonemic awareness, you can't blend.  If phonemic awareness is really bad, you'll need a speech therapist or a specialized program like LiPS, if it's just a bit of a phonemic awareness problem, you can fix it yourself.  My blending page, linked in post above, explains why blending is a hard skill for some students and how and why to teach it explicitly.  

Some students need a lot of explaining and modeling to be able to blend, some need phonemic awareness training and speech therapy, then explaining and modeling of the blending process.

More time generally doesn't work, it just leaves them further behind.  You need to figure out where the problem is and fix it, teaching the missing skills incrementally. 

Yes. And then, keep in mind that if she does have reading issues, blending is only one step in phonemic manipulation skills. She may falter and struggle to remember words even after she can blend them if you don't do the phonemic training and word study. So keep an eye out for that, or just do the work now and know that it is covered 🙂

Equipped for Reading success would explain all that and have the 1 minute exercises to do to build those skills. (no, I don't get a kick back for recommending that book, lol. It is just that great - his other book is fantastic too but as Elizabeth told me, this one has more practical application stuff in it)

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4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes. And then, keep in mind that if she does have reading issues, blending is only one step in phonemic manipulation skills. She may falter and struggle to remember words even after she can blend them if you don't do the phonemic training and word study. So keep an eye out for that, or just do the work now and know that it is covered 🙂

Equipped for Reading success would explain all that and have the 1 minute exercises to do to build those skills. (no, I don't get a kick back for recommending that book, lol. It is just that great - his other book is fantastic too but as Elizabeth told me, this one has more practical application stuff in it)

Yes, it is a great book. He also has a free phonemic awareness test:

https://www.thepasttest.com

The book is well worth the money, hundreds of incremental drills to build phonemic awareness.  I don't get a kick back, either.

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Thanks for all the advice.  You guys are a treasure trove of information! I'm going to try some of the free tests you recommended during Christmas break.  Then possibly discuss more with her teacher and principal.  I never considered that she could be lacking in phonemic awareness, especially since she learned the letters and their sounds so early.  But now you've definitely got me wondering.  

Edited by charlotteb
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1 hour ago, charlotteb said:

Thanks for all the advice.  You guys are a treasure trove of information! I'm going to try some of the free tests you recommended during Christmas break.  Then possibly discuss more with her teacher and principal.  I never considered that she could be lacking in phonemic awareness, especially since she learned the letters and their sounds so early.  But now you've definitely got me wondering.  

 

This really tripped me up with my kids, especially my daughter. She had known the letter sounds since they were little, picked them up through games, we played tons of games identifying sounds in words in which she did great, she could rhyme easily, etc. All the things you commonly read and hear about. But, though she could blend, she couldn't really read. My son also could do all the things, with slightly less facility than dd, except he also had trouble blending.

They're both dyslexic. Phonemic awareness is much more than just knowing the sounds. 

And, Ktgrok, I'm finally putting that darn book in my cart. I keep putting it off, as I've spent too much on books lately, and then each mention of it makes me look again. 😁😂

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1 hour ago, charlotteb said:

Thanks for all the advice.  You guys are a treasure trove of information! I'm going to try some of the free tests you recommended during Christmas break.  Then possibly discuss more with her teacher and principal.  I never considered that she could be lacking in phonemic awareness, especially since she learned the letters and their sounds so early.  But now you've definitely got me wondering.  

My very dyslexic DD knew her alphabet and sounds by age 2. That's a separate skill entirely from phonemic awareness stuff. That's letter/sound knowledge, which is different. You need that too, but that isn't usually the lacking skill. (My non dyslexic kid on the other hand struggled with that, but he has working memory issues)

23 minutes ago, Jentrovert said:

 

This really tripped me up with my kids, especially my daughter. She had known the letter sounds since they were little, picked them up through games, we played tons of games identifying sounds in words in which she did great, she could rhyme easily, etc. All the things you commonly read and hear about. But, though she could blend, she couldn't really read. My son also could do all the things, with slightly less facility than dd, except he also had trouble blending.

They're both dyslexic. Phonemic awareness is much more than just knowing the sounds. 

And, Ktgrok, I'm finally putting that darn book in my cart. I keep putting it off, as I've spent too much on books lately, and then each mention of it makes me look again. 😁😂

It is 100 percent worth it. 

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16 hours ago, Pen said:

And unless someone has explicitly shown her how to do blending of sounds that may also be simply lack of instruction.

No, phonological processing is DEVELOPMENTAL. It should develop naturally and is not dependent on instruction. RTI (response to intervention) assumes lack of instruction could explain it. The SLP testing is not depending on instruction but is looking at what is developmental, what should have happened naturally. The brain naturally does this and goes through the stages.

4 hours ago, charlotteb said:

I never considered that she could be lacking in phonemic awareness, especially since she learned the letters and their sounds so early.  But now you've definitely got me wondering.  

Well isn't that what you posted here asking??? You asked if it was dyslexia, and dyslexia is a PHONOLOGICAL PROCESSING DISORDER, not a vision problem. The reversals are not dyslexia, but the phonological processing is.

Knowing letters or whatever early just means she's bright. We've given you multiple free tools here you could be using on her immediately to see if she's behind on her phonological processing. 

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Different people here will have different views based on our own experiences.

 I probably fastened onto the child from foster care aspect without having articulated that.  

Orphanage background isn’t exactly the same, but there may be some overlap. 

Foster children have also been found to have brain changes.   But I wasn’t able to find as good a description online as this one with regard to orphanage children.  

n. Children who remain in orphanages have significant language delays and the length of stay correlates highly with poor cognitive and language abilities (Johnson, 2000; O’Connor et al., 2000; Rutter et al., 1998; Miller, 2005; Windsor, Glaze, Koga, & the Bucharest Early Intervention Project Core Group, 2007). At birth the range of potential language abilities for all children falls along the normal curve. Some children have the potential to develop exceptional language skills; others have less potential. When children enter orphanages, environmental and nutritional deprivation gradually erodes their potential.

The poorer the level of care, and the longer the length of institutionalization, the more potential in the area of language ability is lost. The result is a group of children who still have language abilities arrayed into a normal curve, but the curve has shifted downward. While many children will still fall within the “normal range,” lost potential translates into proportionately more children falling below average. Once potential is lost, the more important question is whether it can be regained when the environment improves.

Research indicates that many children raised in orphanages have permanent neurobiological changes related to chronic stress within their environment (Gunnar & Quevedo, 2007; Miller, 2005). Chronic abnormal stress reactions lead to overproduction of cortisol and high levels of glucocorticoids in the brain. Prolonged exposure to glucocorticoids leads to structural changes in the brain, primarily the hippocampus, which is important for memory storage and retrieval. Other areas of the brain affected by abnormal regulation of glucocorticoids include the frontal lobe, responsible for executive function and abstract thinking; the cingulate gyrus, responsible for attention and self-control; and the amygdala, responsible for processing emotions. However, some children are genetically more resilient to the neurobiological effects of stress and are not as affected by the orphanage environment (Gunnar & Quevedo). In addition, the neurobiology of stress reactions responds to improvements in the environment, such as adoption into a nurturing home with consistent caregivers (Gunnar & Quevedo). ...”

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2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Well isn't that what you posted here asking??? You asked if it was dyslexia, and dyslexia is a PHONOLOGICAL PROCESSING DISORDER, not a vision problem. The reversals are not dyslexia, but the phonological processing is.

Knowing letters or whatever early just means she's bright. We've given you multiple free tools here you could be using on her immediately to see if she's behind on her phonological processing. 

You are being too literal. 🙂 My reading of it is that she thought that because x thing was working, phonological processing was intact. I have a dyslexic kid, and I don't know all the ways that phonological processing can go wonky--it's reasonable to not know the whole picture at this stage. Not everyone knows all the signs of all the things prior to their kid getting diagnosed. This is a case of where someone's understanding and a real definition have collided. Happens all the time on these threads (like, "I didn't think my child had autism because they like people so much").

ETA: Heck, people get seriously ill without having symptoms, or they have symptoms that don't end up matching a diagnosis. That's just life, lol! 

Not everyone is going to jump in with both feet just before Christmas. 

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

No, phonological processing is DEVELOPMENTAL. It should develop naturally and is not dependent on instruction. RTI (response to intervention) assumes lack of instruction could explain it. The SLP testing is not depending on instruction but is looking at what is developmental, what should have happened naturally. The brain naturally does this and goes through the stages.

She hasn't had SLP testing, so this seems a little like putting the cart before the horse.

Good information to know though--we often give advice on here about not really knowing if a child has dyslexia or just poor instruction because someone hasn't attempted phonics, etc. Maybe we should talk about which symptoms/tests are looking at developmental vs. instructional aspects someplace on here.

Edited by kbutton
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2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

No, phonological processing is DEVELOPMENTAL. It should develop naturally and is not dependent on instruction. RTI (response to intervention) assumes lack of instruction could explain it. The SLP testing is not depending on instruction but is looking at what is developmental, what should have happened naturally. The brain naturally does this and goes through the stages.

Well isn't that what you posted here asking??? You asked if it was dyslexia, and dyslexia is a PHONOLOGICAL PROCESSING DISORDER, not a vision problem. The reversals are not dyslexia, but the phonological processing is.

Knowing letters or whatever early just means she's bright. We've given you multiple free tools here you could be using on her immediately to see if she's behind on her phonological processing. 

 

According to Sally Shaywitz (Yale U related to dyslexia ) iirc ~ 75% of dyslexia has a phonological component.  

 

I don't know the research you have about phonological abilities being automatic with age, but kids deprived of significant language in their environment tend to have troubles with language.  

I think it can be easy to dismiss how much some children may be learning from early caregivers modeling sounds, “Can you say Da Da? Da Da...; Can you say Ma Ma? Ma Ma.” Type communication with little ones,  and not realize that’s explicit teaching—and that kids who are in circumstances that may lead to Foster care may not have had it, or not as much.

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4 hours ago, Pen said:

kids deprived of significant language in their environment tend to have troubles with language.  

And if you go back to my first post, you'll notice I suggested she start with an SLP who specializes in reading. One person, hits both the reading question *and* the language question. Even if you hit a neuropsych and spend $$$$$$$$, they usually just have a screener like the CELF. The SLP specializing in reading should have more detailed testing. Actionable information, lower price, faster to get into, easy to get a referral for. Lots of good reasons to start with an SLP in this case, if she finds the right one.

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She has been evaluated by speech therapist a few times. She suffered from recurrent ear infections when she was younger and was delayed in her speech because of it. However she received ear tubes in 2018 and has improved greatly since then. I might look into having her reevaluated though now. Also, some of you mentioned the fact that she has been in foster care and that it could be related to that. We certainly agree with that. Although she has been with us for many years, we still see some trauma related behaviors in her. Also, it is suspected that she suffers from Fetal alcohol syndrome which we have not been able to get in official diagnosis for.  

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So yes, it would be good to update her SLP evals. Look for someone who specializes in literacy. There's some testing she probably wasn't old enough for that she can have now, like narrative language testing. They can run the CTOPP or something more comprehensive like the TILLS. But to get these tests, you need an SLP who specializes in literacy.

Narrative language is something for you to read about. It connects with the trauma because the trauma causes dissociation and glitches the emotional awareness. Emotional awareness is necessary to move forward through the stages of narrative language development. So you may have some work to do there with self awareness (interoception), social emotional learning, and narrative language. And the narrative language issues will affect reading comprehension and writing even when you get her decoding working.

Yes, given that you suspect FAS and SLDs, you should be pursuing psych evals as well. But the SLP is something you can update sooner and get actionable information to move forward.

Remind us, she's in a private school? And is she getting counseling for the trauma? The right counselor could work on the social emotional learning, which would give you sort of a team approach.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/17/2019 at 7:53 AM, Ktgrok said:


Equipped for Reading success would explain all that and have the 1 minute exercises to do to build those skills. (no, I don't get a kick back for recommending that book, lol. It is just that great - his other book is fantastic too but as Elizabeth told me, this one has more practical application stuff in it)

Thanks for this recommendation, bought it and have spent Christmas break reading through it. I’m not sure if my 7 year old is dyslexic, but this has been helpful. 

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On 1/2/2020 at 12:04 PM, Rachel said:

Thanks for this recommendation, bought it and have spent Christmas break reading through it. I’m not sure if my 7 year old is dyslexic, but this has been helpful. 

Even if not dyslexic, those 1 minute exercises and anything else you do towards building up phonemic awareness are not going to hurt anything, and may help.  

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