NCF

[Miguelsmom]

 

Does anyone have experience with New College of Florida? 

 

My son’s now looking into it as it’s untraditional and he thinks that maybe where he wants to go even if it could take him 4 more years. He’d be going for a concentration in computer science possibly with a slash in game art. He likes that it’s small (before that was a negative thing), we like that it’s a pass/fail system, he worries about the food as the reviews are negative, he likes there’s 3 people to a small room, and he likes that you take 5 classes but only have to pass 3.  

 

I worry about job prospects with such a small school, that even though it’s SACS accredited it’s a liberal arts school so transferring would be difficult, the difficulty of an honors college, doubling the amount in loans, having no GPA at the end of schooling. I also have a problem that Programming and Database analytics is offered at our local college so he could go there with no debt.

 

So NCF has 800 students vs. the University with over 30k students. He wants the college experience both will give him a vastly different one. How do you choose it’s like comparing apples to oranges? Both will cost about the same per year so either is doable. He won’t get his acceptance/rejection letters until October.

[Melissa B]

Won't your son qualify for Bright Futures? It is a state university. Is the double cost due to room & board?

I would definitely tour and meet the actual professors your son would be working with. It seems to be a love/hate university. Almost everyone I know that has gone to New College either absolutely loved it, or transferred out after the first or second year. The professors involved have a lot to do with that. And the fact that there is very little hand holding. The students are expected to be very self motivated and able to work well on their own time schedule. Often times nothing is due until the end of the semester. It makes it easy for students on their own for the first time to suddenly be looking at a major project due and only a week left in the semester. If the student doesn't pass the course it can be discouraging to have to retake it a second time. Most of the people I know that did graduate went on to a master's program in another university without issue. It is liberal arts based, so the people I know went on to advanced degrees in humanities/education areas and all found good jobs without issue. I don't know as much about the math/science degrees.

I looked at it myself when I was a teen and didn't connect with the professors in my major. My children have all been there (as we have relatives that have attended) and they all feel/felt it is too small for them. The size does limit the social options as well as the diversity of students on campus.

[Miguelsmom]

5 minutes ago, Melissa B said:

Won't your son qualify for Bright Futures? It is a state university. Is the double cost due to room & board?

He will get bright futures but because he's enrolling with an AS instead of an AA it will take him longer to complete then his other school he's applied to. 

 

[Lanny]

If he Majors in Computer Science is that ABET accredited?  If not, I would end my interest with that if he wants a B.S. in Computer Science or any Engineering discipline.

How would potential employees look at an applicant with Pass/Fail grades on their transcript?   I suspect for the first position after graduation that would be a severe issue. Maybe not. After the first position, it will become less of a problem, but with new grads, GPA is a factor in hiring decisioins.

 

[Miguelsmom]

12 minutes ago, Lanny said:

If not, I would end my interest with that if he wants a B.S. in Computer Science or any Engineering discipline.

It's not ABET accredited, why would that end your interest?  

[catz]

13 minutes ago, Miguelsmom said:

It's not ABET accredited, why would that end your interest?  

That is a very important accreditation to many employers for those degree programs.

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, Lanny said:

If he Majors in Computer Science is that ABET accredited?  If not, I would end my interest with that if he wants a B.S. in Computer Science or any Engineering 

 

Computer Science is not the same discipline as Computer Engineering,  and most CS programs are not in the Engineering school of Universities. ABET seems to cover mostly programs in Engineering schools (as opposed to a College of Science)

Edited August 11, 2019 by Matryoshka

[Lanny]

11 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Computer Science is not the same discipline as Computer Engineering,  and most CS programs are not in the Engineering school of Universities. ABET seems to cover mostly programs in Engineering schools (as opposed to a College of Science)

 

I understand the differences between a B.S. in Computer Science and a B.S. in Computer Engineering.  Coming from the Engineering world, if my DD wanted to go into Computer Science, I would have suggested that she get a B.S.  from an ABET accredited school.

I was a "Member" of IEEE for about 25 years and they were heavily involved in vetting university programs, before it went into ABET.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Lanny

[Lanny]

This URL on USNEWS has the Rankings for New College of Florida.  Impressive that it is ranked #5 in "Top Public Schools".

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/new-college-of-florida-153704/overall-rankings

One thing I suggest the DS of the OP look for when he is looking at different schools are the ones that Rank High for "Best Undergraduate Teaching". That's something we looked for. Very important IMO.

A student could attend a school with an enormous enrollment (FIU or UCF for examples) and if in the "right" program (Honors or other?) could get Mentoring which is priceless and find themselves among students with similar interests and capabilities. 

 

[Miguelsmom]

58 minutes ago, Lanny said:

ranked #5 in "Top Public Schools".

I didn't see that. I saw the LAC rank. it's not ranked under "Best Undergraduate Teaching".  Programs and living learning communities cost more on top of tuition. If he does get into and goes to the big university he'll look for a professional club. Currently he's leaning towards NCF. 

[Lanny]

45 minutes ago, Miguelsmom said:

I didn't see that. I saw the LAC rank. it's not ranked under "Best Undergraduate Teaching".  Programs and living learning communities cost more on top of tuition. If he does get into and goes to the big university he'll look for a professional club. Currently he's leaning towards NCF. 

 

Possibly I was ambiguous.  NCF is not ranked for Best Undergraduate Teaching.  I do consider that to be an *extremely* important factor. Many universities focus their teaching on their Graduate students and their Undergraduate students are not their priority. If possible I suggest that your DS also look at schools that rank for Best Undergraduate Teaching...

 

[Lanny]

3 hours ago, Miguelsmom said:

It's not ABET accredited, why would that end your interest?  

 

For anything Engineering related, and I do consider a B.S. in Computer Science to be Engineering related) I believe the lack of ABET accreditation would be the "KOD" (Kiss of Death). When I get emails about positions in the USA (I am old but I am looking to go back to work) that's usually a stipulation regarding education.    No ABET, no job offer...  They usually don't care if the person has an EE degree or a CS degree or a Computer Engineering Degree or a Math or Physics degree. However, for Engineering, they will usually demand ABET accreditation. 

I worked under contract, twice, for a large aerospace company in the Pacific NW.  You know their name and fly on their aircraft.  The first time I went up there to work, I was told that they had a list of approximately 50 universities.  If someone was a graduate of a university that was not on their list, the badge that person wore did not have the title "Engineer" on it. 

[Miguelsmom]

There's only UCF and FSU are both ABET accredited and "Best Undergraduate Teaching".  Neither school my son is interested in but I will talk to him.

[Lanny]

1 hour ago, Miguelsmom said:

There's only UCF and FSU are both ABET accredited and "Best Undergraduate Teaching".  Neither school my son is interested in but I will talk to him.

 

If he is interested in a B.S. in Computer Science I believe if he looks into those schools, it will be time well spent. Good luck to him!    I get a lot of emails from Recruiters and a lot of those emails specify that ABET accreditation is a requirement. 

If you put yourself into the shoes of the student, IMO, a school that ranks for "Best Undergraduate Teaching" is probably going to do a better job for them than a school that is not ranked for that.   There are, obviously, many other factors, but you will see a lot of schools that rank well that are missing "Best Undergraduate Teaching".

Mentoring may come with that or in addition to that and is also something very valuable.

 

[Corraleno]

On 8/11/2019 at 2:39 PM, Lanny said:

This URL on USNEWS has the Rankings for New College of Florida.  Impressive that it is ranked #5 in "Top Public Schools".

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/new-college-of-florida-153704/overall-rankings

Just to clarify, that's #5 among public LACs, not #5 among all public colleges & universities. There aren't a lot of public LACs.

[daijobu]

Schools offering a major in Computer Science without ABET accreditation:

Stanford

CMU

Cornell

Princeton

Columbia

Harvard

Rice

Yale

Brown

Duke

Northwestern

Makes me wonder how students from the top computer science schools in the US are faring against this "kiss of death."  

 

 

[Lanny]

I wonder why those universities do not seek ABET accreditation? Possibly because of their stature they feel they don't need ABET accreditation?  Excellent universities and they must have reasons for not seeking ABET accreditation.  My DD applied to 2 of the schools  in daijobu's list above, but she applied "undeclared" so ABET accreditation wasn't a factor.

[Matryoshka]

32 minutes ago, Lanny said:

I wonder why those universities do not seek ABET accreditation? Possibly because of their stature they feel they don't need ABET accreditation?  Excellent universities and they must have reasons for not seeking ABET accreditation.  My DD applied to 2 of the schools  in daijobu's list above, but she applied "undeclared" so ABET accreditation wasn't a factor.

I still think it's very likely the reason I said before is that ABET is an Engineering accreditation and it seems only to be given to schools that have Computer Science in their schools of Engineering, which a large number do not. I actually looked into this quite a bit when my daughter was looking at schools, and this seems to be a recurring pattern. I don't think most of those schools listed in the PP even have School of Engineering. But there are, in fact, lots of other universities that for whatever reason choose to put Computer Science into their College of Sciences instead of Engineering, and whether correlation or causation, they seem also to be the schools that do not go for ABET for their Computer Science degrees.

[Lanny]

Matryoshka thank you. I came back to this thread to write something quite like what you wrote.  I come from the Engineering world (Aerospace) and remember when IEEE was involved in  accreditation, before ABET.      I forget what it was called before ABET.  And I think on the list above, Stanford doesn't have a School/College of Engineering, although that's where my Late Uncle got his PhD in Electrical Engineering.

I can assure anyone reading this thread, that many of the emails I have received from Recruiters, during the past 30 to 90 days, where they specify the acceptable engineering degrees, ABET accreditation is a requirement and that many Fortune 50 to 500 corporations in the USA require that for Engineering graduates. So, for those potential employers, lack of ABET accreditation would in fact be "the kiss of death" regarding employment. 

There are certainly tons of employers who don't care and especially those employers who are local to the universities in the list above will have vast knowledge of the quality of the education and the people who are doing the educating. 

[Miguelsmom]

NCF has computer science under their Natural Science.  He doesn't want the excess courses in science and math that ABET require. He wants to finish in 2, maybe 3 years and not have to restart like he would have to do with an ABET degree. He plans to go into database programming and/or web development.  Cost wise it's about the same for the ABET degree as non-ABET degree. I think the ABET degree will open up more doors but the format and size of NCF is tempting.

[daijobu]

5 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

I still think it's very likely the reason I said before is that ABET is an Engineering accreditation and it seems only to be given to schools that have Computer Science in their schools of Engineering, which a large number do not. I actually looked into this quite a bit when my daughter was looking at schools, and this seems to be a recurring pattern. I don't think most of those schools listed in the PP even have School of Engineering. But there are, in fact, lots of other universities that for whatever reason choose to put Computer Science into their College of Sciences instead of Engineering, and whether correlation or causation, they seem also to be the schools that do not go for ABET for their Computer Science degrees.

Argh.

Stanford School of Engineering  (seriously people?  Stanford does not have an engineering school?  Where do you think Hewlett Packard came from?  Sun?  Intel?  Cisco?  Lanny's late uncle earned a PhD in EE at Stanford, and he still doesn't believe Stanford has an engineering school?🤔)

CMU College of Engineering

Cornell Engineering

Princeton Engineering

 

...I'm not going to bother linking the rest of the engineering schools.   Look them up yourself if you don't believe me.  

I prefer this Quora response:

Edited August 21, 2019 by daijobu

[catz]

Ok I have a BS in math and comp sci from a school of engineering.  I haven't worked or hired in corporate america in CS for a number of years other than a little contract work.  But my husband has a very similar background and is a VP at a major US software company.  I would definitely agree that ABET does not matter so much for comp sci.  However, large comp sci employers that hire new grads know the ins and outs of these degree programs very well.  If you have a BA in comp sci from a top rated LAC there is a good chance you are not as well technically trained as someone with a BS out of an (likely ABET accredited) engineering program.  I'm not cutting down BA's/LAC's at all.  You may be better trained in communications, writing, people skills with that BA.  But you need to not only looked where new grads are being hired, but what exactly they're being hired to do.  At companies both my spouse and I have worked at there are people with BA degrees doing a variety of jobs (technical writing, customer support, QA, sales, tech leads, development, etc).  The nuts and bolts in the trenches designers and developers tend to have the more technical degrees.   There are definitely tech employers that will value the more technical degree over an elite school name when they are hiring young people into development.  The employers we've all worked for have had favored programs for hiring new college grads to train as developers.  And they weren't necessarily the names of colleges you'd expect.  

So I will admit to being lazy when answering this initially.  It's not actually accreditation, but the specifics of the degree when it comes to comp sci can be very important depending on what type of jobs you are applying for.  And I'm not at all saying a BA or a less technical degree in comp sci is a bad idea.  My own kid is considering that himself actually.  He is multi interested and has some broader goals and is considering double majors/grad school/who knows.  It just depends what your career goals are when you finish your bachelor's degree.  And you really have to look carefully.  The ins and outs of various programs can vary widely.  When you have a kid that may be undecided and unsure, the BA may be a safer path too.  

Anyway - for the OP, I would print out the graduation requirements for both programs at each school of interest to compare side by side and see if you can get specific post grad placement information out of the degree programs you are considering.   Not just company names, but job titles.

Edited August 21, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[Miguelsmom]

1 hour ago, FuzzyCatz said:

see if you can get specific post grad placement information out of the degree programs you are considering.   Not just company names, but job titles

How would we do this?

[catz]

Just now, Miguelsmom said:

How would we do this?

I would start by trying to e-mail career services or placement offices for a start.  Or call if they aren't e-mail responsive.   You could also directly ask faculty if you meet any as you are visiting.  I think that can be interesting from a getting the vibe of a program too.  You'd hope faculty would have a decent sense of at least what some of their grads would be doing.  

[TravelingChris]

On 8/11/2019 at 3:57 PM, Lanny said:

 

For anything Engineering related, and I do consider a B.S. in Computer Science to be Engineering related) I believe the lack of ABET accreditation would be the "KOD" (Kiss of Death). When I get emails about positions in the USA (I am old but I am looking to go back to work) that's usually a stipulation regarding education.    No ABET, no job offer...  They usually don't care if the person has an EE degree or a CS degree or a Computer Engineering Degree or a Math or Physics degree. However, for Engineering, they will usually demand ABET accreditation. 

I worked under contract, twice, for a large aerospace company in the Pacific NW.  You know their name and fly on their aircraft.  The first time I went up there to work, I was told that they had a list of approximately 50 universities.  If someone was a graduate of a university that was not on their list, the badge that person wore did not have the title "Engineer" on it. 

Lanny, it is super different with Computer Science, at least in this town.  My daughter has a CS major, physics minor from a LAC and is currently in the process of getting a job.  No one has cared at all that she is not from an engineering school (she does have credits from one, but her degree is from LAC).  What people are asking for is knowledge and experience with specific computer languages.

My son is about to start a job in IT without a college degree.  My dh's job title is Senior Systems Engineer and he never took any engineering classes.

[Lanny]

I was in the Engineering world (Aerospace) so my preference, if someone wanted to go for a C.S. degree would be to get it from an Engineering school.

Will students from extremely well known universities mentioned upthread  that are not ABET accredited get jobs? Certainly they will and I suspect they might start at $80K to $100K per year after graduating.

However...   If they have any interest in doing work similar to what I did (I was an Assembly Language Programmer) that requires working "close to the Hardware" they would probably be lost.  For that kind of position, an ABET accredited school would IMHO  prepare them better.

There was something in the Google thread on my phone a day or 2 ago.  An experienced software engineer wrote something about OOP (Object Oriented Programming) VS FP (Functional Programming) and to his astonishment there were 500K views.  This boils down to whether it is just easier (and  less expensive) to hire people who are not as technically capable, but are far more plentiful. It was an interesting thing to read and if I had the URL I would post it here.

Is everyone capable of doing Assembly Language Programming or even "C"?   No. Is it easier to work with all of the modern languages and tools that are available today and on Hardware that has huge resources available to the programmer? Sure. 

There are tons of "Software Engineers" who have graduated from non ABET accredited schools and are doing very well. IMO the ABET accreditation would become useful (if not mandatory) in positions closely related to the Hardware. Depending on the corporation doing the hiring.

And, after someone has a few years of experience, it doesn't really matter, unless one applies to a company where ABET accreditation is mandatory for Engineers.

[Lanny]

On 8/21/2019 at 5:57 PM, daijobu said:

Stanford School of Engineering  (seriously people?  Stanford does not have an engineering school?  Where do you think Hewlett Packard came from?  Sun?  Intel?  Cisco?  Lanny's late uncle earned a PhD in EE at Stanford, and he still doesn't believe Stanford has an engineering school?🤔)

 

I was thinking that Stanford only has Graduate school courses in Engineering disciplines. I believe, looking back on this, that it has to do with a recent thread (one or 2 years ago) here, which I now suspect had to do with Stanford not awarding C.S. degrees and that it was some kind of a Business degree. Something on that order. Sorry for the confusion on my end. And yes I certainly did think it strange, because when I was a boy I remember visiting my Aunt and Uncle and being at Stanford, where they'd built a lab for him...

[Miss Tick]

1 hour ago, Lanny said:

I was thinking that Stanford only has Graduate school courses in Engineering disciplines. 

Lanny, in your defense, the Aeronautics and Aeronautics undergraduate program at Stanford is less than 2 years old. Interestingly, I remember hearing that prior to its existence it was highly ranked, presumably due to the Stanford name and reputation and the fact that rankings often have some aspect of popularity contest to them.

I don't know anything about other undergrad majors at Stanford.

[Hoggirl]

From the Stanford website:

The Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET) accredits college engineering programs nationwide using criteria and standards developed and accepted by U.S. engineering communities. At Stanford, the following undergraduate programs are accredited:

• Civil Engineering
• Mechanical Engineering

In ABET-accredited programs, students must meet specific requirements for engineering science, engineering design, mathematics, and science course work. Students are urged to consult the School of Engineering Handbook for Undergraduate Engineering Programs and their adviser.

Here is the link to the Stanford Engineering page where you can see the 10 undergraduate engineering degree programs:

https://engineering.stanford.edu/students-academics/academics/undergraduate-degree-programs

Thus, (if I am reading this correctly) two of the ten degrees offered are ABET-accredited. 

Stanford offers no undergraduate business degrees.  

Back to the OP - Have you visited NCF?  I’m not clear about which in-state school with 30k students your ds is also considering?  You wrote he was not interested in UCF or FSU. UF decisions will not be out in October. It’s hard to make a comparison not knowing the other school being considered.

 I don’t know a whole lot about CS degrees.  Likewise, I don’t know how students are screened/recruited for jobs in the areas in which your son is interested.  I wouldn’t think that there would be a large contingent of CS students at NCF.  How many students pursue that degree?  I agree with whomever suggested checking out job placement.  I, too, would be concerned about the lack of grades.  However, if NCF has a track record of feeding into a certain company in CS, that would make a difference to me. 

NCF has always had an interesting reputation - that’s why I asked if you had visited.  I don’t get the sense that it’s for everybody. It is sort of considered a feeder school for graduate school.  Does you ds have any interest in going to graduate school?

Edited August 24, 2019 by Hoggirl

[Frances]

On 8/22/2019 at 3:56 AM, TravelingChris said:

Lanny, it is super different with Computer Science, at least in this town.  My daughter has a CS major, physics minor from a LAC and is currently in the process of getting a job.  No one has cared at all that she is not from an engineering school (she does have credits from one, but her degree is from LAC).  What people are asking for is knowledge and experience with specific computer languages.

My son is about to start a job in IT without a college degree.  My dh's job title is Senior Systems Engineer and he never took any engineering classes.

Agreed. I know the students coming out of my small “colleges that change lives” LAC alma mater with a computer science degree have done very well in the job market.

And one of the Intel founders did his undergrad at Grinnell College, a top LAC.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Frances

[Miguelsmom]

On 8/23/2019 at 10:19 PM, Hoggirl said:

Have you visited NCF?

Yes, that's why he wants to go there.

 

On 8/23/2019 at 10:19 PM, Hoggirl said:

I’m not clear about which in-state school with 30k students your ds is also considering?

The other school is USF- information Architecture BSAS. So a well know school but an obscure degree. He wants to be a unicorn in the web development field working with making databases currently. Most likely freelance but I don't want to make it so he HAS to be a freelancer. Either school is very flexible classes wise so either would fit his goals. All the jobs he has looked at require a bachelors degree in a computer related field. Currently he has a mix of computer programming, art, and web development classes. He wanted a school that would continue to let him develop this way. So he's very limited in schools. He also has the ability to get an interdisciplinary studies BS from other schools but I think it'd be harder getting a job with an IDS degree.

On 8/23/2019 at 10:19 PM, Hoggirl said:

 I wouldn’t think that there would be a large contingent of CS students at NCF.

There's not a lot of students in the CS degree but that's a plus for us. Unless they're unable to find jobs.

 

On 8/23/2019 at 10:19 PM, Hoggirl said:

 Does you ds have any interest in going to graduate school?

At this point he's wavering between just wanting to get it done and going for graduate school. It'll come down to whether he likes college and debt. He doesn't want to be in supervisor role currently. He's not a fan of the local college because it's mostly on-line. So he needs in person classes.

[Hoggirl]

So, USF is your “local” college and most courses would be on-line?  Is UF not an option? 

If you and your ds have visited NCF (did he do an overnight?) and you enjoyed the vibe there, then he will probably be fine.  The reviews on food and the dorm situation (would he live on-campus?) are abysmal.  It also has a high % of females. It appears that theNDF retention rate is not the best.  If some 80% go on to graduate school, I would definitely want to know about job placement directly out of undergrad as it specifically relates to the degree he is seeking. 

If the priority is to finish ASAP, then choose whichever one accommodates that best.  

[Miguelsmom]

USF is the other University he's trying after. Our local college (community college that have BS degrees) is mostly online. He wants to live in the dorms whatever university he goes to.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On 8/11/2019 at 2:29 PM, Lanny said:

 

I understand the differences between a B.S. in Computer Science and a B.S. in Computer Engineering.  Coming from the Engineering world, if my DD wanted to go into Computer Science, I would have suggested that she get a B.S.  from an ABET accredited school.

I was a "Member" of IEEE for about 25 years and they were heavily involved in vetting university programs, before it went into ABET.

I think the ABET status is worth considering, but for Computer Science that status isn't the final word.

Stanford University for example has a robust Computer Science program that is not ABET accredited. 

Purdue University's CS program is also not ABET accredited. 

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Sebastian (a lady)