Why do so many other programs not use Memoria Press?

[humblepie]

I have been looking forward for my eldest for Logic, and most people and/or programs include the Nance Logic instead of the MP one written by Cothran. Why?

Also, so many people on here mention CAP's Writing and Rhetoric, Art of Argument, and so forth--why not MP's Classical Composition?

We started with Classical Writing Aesop, but then switched to MP's composition, but I find that while the opportunity to teach incorporated skills is there, it is too easy to gloss over. I am looking for more hand-holding on writing skills. At this point, I am looking at Killgallon, MCT, Hake Grammar/Writing, Rod and Staff, and wondering if I shouldn't look at W & R or IEW.

Any thoughts on why MP seems to be the lone kid in the corner so often?

[mumto2]

In case I don’t see the thread again my dc’s are early 20’s but we used MP’s Logic series and were totally happy with it.....fwiw used the Latin too.  I am wondering if it’s because they have full packages now but no idea really.

[HomeAgain]

A lot of reasons:
1. It doesn't always fit in with a curriculum company's ideals.
2. There is no one size fits all.
3. Variety is very nice.
4. MP sells their own full package.
5. Other programs are just as valid and useful.

If you like it, use it.  Goodness knows quite a few of our resources here at home aren't the most popular options on the block.  I wouldn't have it any other way, even if they are hard to hunt down sometimes.  I mean, I could rewrite your question another way:
We use Dictation Day By Day, Gattegno, Paper Sloyd, Elson, Harry Stottlemeier....why wouldn't you? 

See how silly it sounds to homeschoolers who are used to being able to pick and choose and get a tailored education for their kids? 😉

[8filltheheart]

12 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Well, ime, beyond MP Logic 1, the DVDs seem like a requirement and a lot of people want to teach/engage and not have to lean on DVDs (or devote scads if time to learning what’s on the DVDs to teach it yourself). We used MP Logic I&II, but it’s not for everyone. And honestly I don’t think everyone is interested in THAT level of logic. Martin Cothran is definitely not everyone’s cup of tea. I never used their Material Logic so can’t speak to that author. 

A lot of people here use MP so I would hardly call them the kid in the corner. Same with IEW. Many of us use that and happily so. 

Yep.

[EmilyGF]

I find the tone of the MP catalogs really off-putting - and I *want* to like it. There is a superiority that just irritates me to no end. I figure if the catalogs are that way, I won't like the curriculum (though I love the clean layouts... sigh).

I do think a lot of homeschool companies have that superior tone, but I just avoid those ones. This is one I *want* to like so I keep going back and getting annoyed.

Emily

[8filltheheart]

27 minutes ago, EmilyGF said:

I find the tone of the MP catalogs really off-putting - and I *want* to like it. There is a superiority that just irritates me to no end. I figure if the catalogs are that way, I won't like the curriculum (though I love the clean layouts... sigh).

I do think a lot of homeschool companies have that superior tone, but I just avoid those ones. This is one I *want* to like so I keep going back and getting annoyed.

Emily

Oh my!  I think you just nailed it (in addition to Martin Cothran's logic books being dry as dust).  I read Cheryl Lowe's last article in the Classical Teacher when it arrived and I thought to myself such over-simplification of complex issues with a twist of biased representation and self-justification.

[humblepie]

3 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

A lot of reasons:
1. It doesn't always fit in with a curriculum company's ideals.
2. There is no one size fits all.
3. Variety is very nice.
4. MP sells their own full package.
5. Other programs are just as valid and useful.

If you like it, use it.  Goodness knows quite a few of our resources here at home aren't the most popular options on the block.  I wouldn't have it any other way, even if they are hard to hunt down sometimes.  I mean, I could rewrite your question another way:
We use Dictation Day By Day, Gattegno, Paper Sloyd, Elson, Harry Stottlemeier....why wouldn't you? 

See how silly it sounds to homeschoolers who are used to being able to pick and choose and get a tailored education for their kids? 😉

After reading your reply and being confused by your tone, I reread my post--chalk another misunderstanding up to typing late at night instead of talking! I can see how my post seemed to you like I was implying people should use MP. Sorry!

I was really looking for help choosing a Logic program and find it curious why so many curriculum developers choose to include  Nance and CAP logic over MP's (if they are attempting to use the ones that market themselves as progym).  I know there is a qualitative difference between the kinds of logic programs--it isn't just a matter of we like one better than the other.  One is symbolic and the other is . . .based more on language or something like that. I am way out of my depth researching this.

 I was asking for what people didn't like about MP's composition program.  Overwhelmingly, people try CAP's W&R program, and whether they stick with it or not, there is often mention of MP's CC program.  So my question was meant to be asking "In your experimenting/decision making, why is MP not even in there?" As in--what was it about the program that you culled it immediately?

Thanks for taking the time to reply, even though it seemed like you were having to defend All Those Who Don't Use MP. (Note to self: don't post late at night again. Don't post late at night again.)  🙂

 

 

 

[teachermom2834]

I do like MP and use it exclusively with my youngest child without swapping anything out. We have deviated from the plans only in some subjects she has worked ahead in. 

I used to be a mix and matcher with my older kids and I tried a little MP here and there and was never that impressed. But I do really like the way the entire core comes together for my dd. I don’t think I would like the way the pieces stand alone. It’s missing something that away (very obviously my opinion!) This is for up through 5th grade. I haven’t gotten to the logic yet.  We’ll see how long I hang in there when I hit those upper levels.

I think the MP fans are more people that have gone all in with it. So I wouldn’t expect to see lots of pieces being used in other programs. It’s my choice for a canned curriculum and actually the only one I have ever used as written. But if someone was piecing together the best of everything for a program they can probably find better choices in individual subjects. 

 

 

[Mbelle]

I have used MP and one year I even got a core for my 8th grader and we liked the poetry in that year.  DS and I had a lot of joy doing that together, but I did not make him write out every answer.  I did like it especially for middle years.  I loved Prima Latina and all the Form series and I plan on using them with child 3.  We like Classical Comp quite well and will likely use it again.  The  MP we did use prepared my older 2 very well for the classical hybrid school they attended for most of high school.  

With child 3 we tried the K program. I personally did not enjoy their phonics program that much, except for the readers, but those are not actually MP products.  The K program was too much for our more laid back early elementary years style of just spending time really learning the 3R's.  I pretty much ditched the K program.  While Abeka is not my style either I do like their phonics and that has worked very well for 

[Sarah0000]

I like the streamlined nature of their products. It's so easy to use as a base from which to scale up by adding in fun extra stuff or just stick with get-er-done when time or interest constrains. I find their products convenient to pair with or after a more living books/projects approach in the subject. However, I have chosen to go with CAP for early Latin because of the cute factor and also W&R because it seems a little more fun but still really streamlined. Also, it's not a deciding factor in our homeschool even though we're atheist but perhaps MP has more religious overtones in their products compared to other similar products and perhaps programs lean away from MP to appeal to a wider audience.

[HomeAgain]

20 hours ago, humblepie said:

After reading your reply and being confused by your tone, I reread my post--chalk another misunderstanding up to typing late at night instead of talking! I can see how my post seemed to you like I was implying people should use MP. Sorry!

I was really looking for help choosing a Logic program and find it curious why so many curriculum developers choose to include  Nance and CAP logic over MP's (if they are attempting to use the ones that market themselves as progym).  I know there is a qualitative difference between the kinds of logic programs--it isn't just a matter of we like one better than the other.  One is symbolic and the other is . . .based more on language or something like that. I am way out of my depth researching this.

 I was asking for what people didn't like about MP's composition program.  Overwhelmingly, people try CAP's W&R program, and whether they stick with it or not, there is often mention of MP's CC program.  So my question was meant to be asking "In your experimenting/decision making, why is MP not even in there?" As in--what was it about the program that you culled it immediately?

Thanks for taking the time to reply, even though it seemed like you were having to defend All Those Who Don't Use MP. (Note to self: don't post late at night again. Don't post late at night again.)  🙂

 

Ahhh!

We use a little bit of Memoria Press, but even my workbook-loving child got tired of the repetitive pages in First Form Latin.  He learned a lot, but by about March he really wanted something else.
Memoria Press seems to be one of those that we would have to use sparingly in our house.  Even though it teaches well, it's just so much slogging through without spark or joy.

[8filltheheart]

52 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Ahhh!

We use a little bit of Memoria Press, but even my workbook-loving child got tired of the repetitive pages in First Form Latin.  He learned a lot, but by about March he really wanted something else.
Memoria Press seems to be one of those that we would have to use sparingly in our house.  Even though it teaches well, it's just so much slogging through without spark or joy.

Your post made me burst out laughing. Did you read the June issue of The Classical Teacher? Gravitas: The Lost Art of Taking School Seriously

Quote

...Now they come, she said, with unrealistic expectations that school should be fun, and that first grade is not a big step in growing up but just another year of school which happily involves lots of things, only some of which are school work.....

The methods proper to formal education are not play, discovery, and exploration, but rather systematic instruction....

The progressive educator tries to convince the unsuspecting parent that only through continuing with these methods can the joy of learning be maintained permanently in the education process.

This is the essence of progressive education and is the single most destructive influence in education today......

The romantic notion that the joy of learning that is characteristic of the preschool child is the model of learning for the formal education of the classroom is the siren song of progressive education. It is sheer nonsense. Until educators and parents realize this, we will never achieve excellence in education.

 

Of course, appropriate formal education links to their packages.

I am glad that MP exists and offers options to parents. I am not knocking MP as a solid resource for parents to use. But, to insinuate that workbook packages are representative of authentic classical education is truly gag worthy.  It is about as representative of the core pedagogies of classical ed as cyclical history. 😂

I am as far removed from an endorser of progressive education as it actually exists in today's classrooms. But, goodness, MP might contain elements of classical education content, but it certainly lacks it in pedagogy. And, in terms of pedagogy, I personally would opt for joy-based exploratory approach over a boxed workbook approach. (I guess I should inform my kids that their academic excellence is only a figment of our imaginations bc with my educational philosophy  "we will never achieve excellence in education" bc workbooks are vastly superior. Really?? LOL! 

Edited July 3, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

[HomeAgain]

55 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Your post made me burst out laughing. Did you read the June issue of The Classical Teacher? Gravitas: The Lost Art of Taking School Seriously

 

It's good to know at least someone there thinks there should be joy! 😄 

Much of what the author mentioned is done in our house (except the rows of desks, lol)  Ds will happily, quietly, and intently work on Spencerian script with a fountain pen. He will practice a violin piece ad nauseum. He is one of those odd children that genuinely finds contentment in the usefulness of things.  And he chose FFL because of its structure and format, but even he found it maddening towards the end and requested something different.
Me?  I get tired of classical and volunteered at a project school one day a week where the children all learn through hands on and in small groups.  😄  My idea of joy is so much different from my kid's.

eta: Oh, shizzle.  I just glanced at the author of that blog post. 😄 😄 😄 Well, I can definitely say we have different ideas of joy, too!

Edited July 3, 2019 by HomeAgain

[8filltheheart]

6 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

It's good to know at least someone there thinks there should be joy! 😄 

Much of what the author mentioned is done in our house (except the rows of desks, lol)  Ds will happily, quietly, and intently work on Spencerian script with a fountain pen. He will practice a violin piece ad nauseum. He is one of those odd children that genuinely finds contentment in the usefulness of things.  And he chose FFL because of its structure and format, but even he found it maddening towards the end and requested something different.
Me?  I get tired of classical and volunteered at a project school one day a week where the children all learn through hands on and in small groups.  😄  My idea of joy is so much different from my kid's.

But, my point is that it isn't classical. It is whatever they have deemed "classical ed" bc it includes Latin, logic, and certain works of literature. Neoclassical providers have as many gaping holes in their connection to actual classic ed as progressive ed is disconnected from a deeper philosophical pedagogy beyond  skills.

Classical ed was in large part oral with recitations, competitions, and rhetorical defense via interaction with master teachers. Oral competitions were a huge component. It is essentially impossible to replicate classical ed in a home environment. MP's methodologies do not represent or define classical ed. It is classical ed components synthesized down into what fits on printed paper in a box.

[EmilyGF]

22 hours ago, humblepie said:

After reading your reply and being confused by your tone, I reread my post--chalk another misunderstanding up to typing late at night instead of talking! I can see how my post seemed to you like I was implying people should use MP. Sorry!

I was really looking for help choosing a Logic program and find it curious why so many curriculum developers choose to include  Nance and CAP logic over MP's (if they are attempting to use the ones that market themselves as progym).  I know there is a qualitative difference between the kinds of logic programs--it isn't just a matter of we like one better than the other.  One is symbolic and the other is . . .based more on language or something like that. I am way out of my depth researching this.

 I was asking for what people didn't like about MP's composition program.  Overwhelmingly, people try CAP's W&R program, and whether they stick with it or not, there is often mention of MP's CC program.  So my question was meant to be asking "In your experimenting/decision making, why is MP not even in there?" As in--what was it about the program that you culled it immediately?

Thanks for taking the time to reply, even though it seemed like you were having to defend All Those Who Don't Use MP. (Note to self: don't post late at night again. Don't post late at night again.)  🙂

 

 

 

Sorry you ended up with this discussion! 😉 I think there are so many opinions about education that asking, "Why not..." anything will get you in a heap of trouble... which is why I don't ask for feedback on my curriculum choices on this board. I do find it a useful place to get nuanced opinions on specific things and specific circumstances.

[sweet2ndchance]

1 hour ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Your post made me burst out laughing. Did you read the June issue of The Classical Teacher? Gravitas: The Lost Art of Taking School Seriously

Of course, appropriate formal education links to their packages.

I am glad that MP exists and offers options to parents. I am not knocking MP as a solid resource for parents to use. But, to insinuate that workbook packages are representative of authentic classical education is truly gag worthy.  It is about as representative of the core pedagogies of classical ed as cyclical history. 😂

I am as far removed from an endorser of progressive education as it actually exists in today's classrooms. But, goodness, MP might contain elements of classical education content, but it certainly lacks it in pedagogy. And, in terms of pedagogy, I personally would opt for joy-based exploratory approach over a boxed workbook approach. (I guess I should inform my kids that their academic excellence is only a figment of our imaginations bc with my educational philosophy  "we will never achieve excellence in education" bc workbooks are vastly superior. Really?? LOL! 

I read the article and just...wow, just wow. I do think there is a point where sparking joy in education crosses over into the realm of silly and pointless but to say that all children should view all learning as serious business and that basically there is no room for fun in an education that strives for excellence... children are not little adults. There is nothing wrong with having some fun while striving for excellence. I have one child out of my six who would thrive in a school like the author of the article runs. This would be my child that sincerely asked for more school books and curriculum for her 6th birthday lol! My other five children would be on the edge of rebellion at that school within a week.

[Mbelle]

I have observed that quite a few classical schools are way too serious and scoldy in the early years.  I do like classical education, but for our family it is better suited to older kids and that includes MP.   I feel like the influence of Mason is more our speed in the younger years.

One thing I do like about MP is that it seems more ecumenical.  I do really appreciate that and that is my personal preference.  I or my church can add in what we want.

The magazine article are smug and I often just skim tham.  I do not agree with a good bit of it.

[chiguirre]

41 minutes ago, mms said:

What's even odder about the MP approach is that as a Catholic educator, Cheryl Lowe should have at least been familiar with the Jesuit and Brothers of Christian Schools models and seen how important that interaction and individual elements were.  Yet the focus on workbooks is precisely opposite of this, even as executed in the school setting at Highlands Latin where there are supposedly "master teachers."  This sort of disconnect from an actual, organic tradition was present in her other writings:  like the defense of Latin that directly stems from the arguments of American authors like Charles Bennett, who argued for Latin as mind training, rather than the Catholic tradition of Latin as essential to the training of an orator.

At least for the Memoria Press Online Academy high school classes, there's not much emphasis on the workbooks either. The Latin classes don't even have workbooks once they get to Henle. They're assigned as homework but they serve more as aids to note taking than the foundation of the student's experience. Class discussions don't follow the workbook and their quizzes and assignments aren't directly drawn from them. Not every teacher dd has had at MPOA has been a "master teacher" but enough of them have truly merited that title that it's been a worthwhile experience for her. Even the not-so-master teachers don't drone through the workbooks during class discussions. 

Of course, this applies to their high school classes. That's a very different thing than 3rd grade reading comprehension and I didn't use MP stuff when my kids were in elementary school. We were more Five In A Row (a blast from the past) in those days.

Edited July 3, 2019 by chiguirre

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, chiguirre said:

At least for the Memoria Press Online Academy high school classes, there's not much emphasis on the workbooks either. The Latin classes don't even have workbooks once they get to Henle. They're assigned as homework but they serve more as aids to note taking than the foundation of the student's experience. Class discussions don't follow the workbook and their quizzes and assignments aren't directly drawn from them. Not every teacher dd has had at MPOA has been a "master teacher" but enough of them have truly merited that title that it's been a worthwhile experience for her. Even the not-so-master teachers don't drone through the workbooks during class discussions. 

Of course, this applies to their high school classes. That's a very different thing than 3rd grade reading comprehension and I didn't use MP stuff when my kids were in elementary school. We were more Five In A Row (a blast from the past) in those days.

From my perspective, it doesn't matter if they shift away from a workbook focus.  An online school is not providing an authentic classical ed in terms of pedagogy/methodology.  Online is still another level of separation away from direct interaction.  That isn't saying it doesn't provide a good academic education. My point is as @EmilyGF stated, 'I find the tone of the MP catalogs really off-putting - and I *want* to like it. There is a superiority that just irritates me to no end," in terms of their "owning" the definition of what qualifies as academically excellent "instruction" (let alone "classical" one bc what they are providing is course subject matter that was typically associated with classical education, but they are not offering a classical education.)

Edited July 3, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

[Heathermomster]

Quote

...a comment I overheard as a young child. A teacher, who had taught first grade for many years, complained to my mother that the introduction of kindergarten in her school was having a negative effect on her first grade class. The ears of this future teacher perked up.

The teacher went on to give the reason: The children who had spent a year in kindergarten enter first grade thinking that school is play. As a result, teachers had to expend much time and energy in teaching children that school is not play, but serious work. She went on to explain that children used to come to first grade in awe of school. Now they come, she said, with unrealistic expectations that school should be fun, and that first grade is not a big step in growing up but just another year of school which happily involves lots of things, only some of which are school work.

Well, I don't know the author's age, so let's assume 60.  If she was 7 at the time, she is hanging onto the opinions of a teacher from 1966.

My initial impression of the article was that perhaps the teacher should exhibit more gravitas and up her teaching game by gaining some better classroom management skills.  All I see is a teacher getting upset with a young student for acting like the child they are.  Maybe she was close to retirement or tired of hippies?  I don't know.

I happen to like some of MP's product.  NAC was great for my fine motor delayed children,  I love the Intro to Poetry materials, and we used parts of the Intro to Comp.  We used CAP materials as well and I like them slightly better than MP because of their use of color.  

Edited July 3, 2019 by Heathermomster

[Lawyer&Mom]

I love studying the MP scope and sequence to see what they cover, because I want my kids to have the cultural content that MP provides.  I think they do a great job in that respect.  We won’t do it the same way as they do, but I appreciate the road map.  It fills in the gaps of my own education.

For example, we just finished the Iliad as a graphic novel, and the story is so good and I can’t believe I’d never read any Iliad before.  And I know to cover the Iliad because MP covers the Iliad.  (Yes, I’m sure other classical homeschooling books told me the same thing, but the MP catalog is easy to look at and see everything in one place.  I read the articles for laughs.)

[serendipitous journey]

On 7/1/2019 at 11:45 PM, humblepie said:

I have been looking forward for my eldest for Logic, and most people and/or programs include the Nance Logic instead of the MP one written by Cothran. Why?

Also, so many people on here mention CAP's Writing and Rhetoric, Art of Argument, and so forth--why not MP's Classical Composition?

We started with Classical Writing Aesop, but then switched to MP's composition, but I find that while the opportunity to teach incorporated skills is there, it is too easy to gloss over. I am looking for more hand-holding on writing skills. At this point, I am looking at Killgallon, MCT, Hake Grammar/Writing, Rod and Staff, and wondering if I shouldn't look at W & R or IEW.

Any thoughts on why MP seems to be the lone kid in the corner so often?

I haven't noticed that MP is the lone kid; I'd say that generally full curriculum providers don't get tons of press here (Sonlight, for example, is another one).  If a parent is using a full curriculum and wants help implementing it, often the curriculum's own forums provide better support: folks on this forum will be suggesting lots of different things, many of which are different to or even incompatible with the full curriculum being used. 

It seems to me that the Form Latin series, Geography program, Classical Composition (which is not an MP product per se, but MP developed support materials for it) and Logic books are recommended/mentioned fairly frequently.  The Tiner science books & support materials also tend to come up as does Novare (which MP uses and has some support materials for). 

The history and literature, not so much, that is true.  Partly for reasons folks mentioned upthread.   

ETA: without wishing to debate, I'd like to present the more-reasonable side of MP's apparent disregard for joy: from MP's perspective the distinction is one between "fun" work and work that leads to deep joy.  The parents and teachers who use & like MP find that their children are joyful learners in terms of delight with knowledge gained, a sense of mastery, and a general interest in the topics covered.  Other parents & teachers who find that MP materials lead to neither fun nor joy tend to set them aside 😉 . 

Edited July 5, 2019 by serendipitous journey