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TravelingChris

Huge fire at Notre Dame Cathedral- renovation related

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1 hour ago, bolt. said:

It'll be the lead. 250lbs of lead, in the spire. "...the wood and lead spire was built during a restoration in the mid-19th century...."

I wonder if the lead is airborne and making the smoke particularly toxic?

Not pounds, Tons.  And yes very very toxic.   

https://tamararubin.com/2019/04/as-notre-dame-burns-please-think-of-the-children-of-paris-the-potential-tragedy-here-is-far-worse-than-flint/

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My family and I were there just 3 weeks ago. My husband lived in Paris for two years in college and it was his first time back. I’m so grateful my boys were able to see it. 

Hopefully this will post - mass was just ending when we walked in and the organ music was so beautiful. It was the first European cathedral my boys had ever been inside and they just stood there in awe. 

 

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9 hours ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

"Why the Non-Catholic Weeps for Notre Dame, Too"  by the Circe Institute

 

I am not Catholic, but weeping inside. 

I'm sure that article resonates with lots of people.

My sadness is due to the history and the architecture. Not so much anything religious. And I'm guessing a lot of other people feel that way, too.

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I saw some pictures this morning from inside. The vault seems to have protected the Cathedral quite well, except for where the spire collapsed: candles standing upright in candelabras, pews upright, the pulpit and the altar still standing (though undoubtedly damaged). I’m waiting to hear about the organ. Apparently, they don’t think it suffered fire damage but probably does have water damage. 

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50 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

 

My sadness is due to the history and the architecture. Not so much anything religious. And I'm guessing a lot of other people feel that way, too.

Mine too. Even as an atheist I'm terribly upset over this but there's nothing religious in my sadness. I didn't even know that mass was still said there so I didn't think of it as an actual active church. To me it's all about the history.

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This is a beautiful, short piece that sums up my thoughts at a time when I am unable to speak eloquently myself. I encourage you to read the whole piece, it truly is short & succinct.

“Where creation—stone, glass, wood, fabric, metal—has for a millennia been ordered in one space toward the resurrection, it is natural for the body of Christ to mourn this loss, to seek to restore this sacred house, to renew its standing as a sign (before its arrival) of the world that’s coming to this world.”

https://www.clarion-journal.com/clarion_journal_of_spirit/2019/04/notre-dame-creation-ordered-in-space-toward-the-resurrection-kenneth-tanner.html?fbclid=IwAR05WKump0P-FSlsckthG3-EV5K__HizFAYfezPc2TTmIeYrQQX7gjAWu0Q

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I am so heartened by what has been saved, what was rescued...and perhaps this is an opportunity for people to realize what the past gives to the present...and to help preserve it, and I'm talking about more than buildings.

 

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3...2...1....yup, it's already begun.  The battle for the repaired ND Cathedral should look like:  less Catholic, more modern, new sculptures, Place de Pigalle-style accessorizing and so on.  "We are not a religious nation anymore and yet this is our cathedral too; it's time to recognize who we have become."  (Ummm...Place de Pigalle anyone?)      ETCorrect:  I was thinking of Pompidou center.  My bad memory.

Le sigh.

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38 minutes ago, Patty Joanna said:

3...2...1....yup, it's already begun.  The battle for the repaired ND Cathedral should look like:  less Catholic, more modern, new sculptures, Place de Pigalle-style accessorizing and so on.  "We are not a religious nation anymore and yet this is our cathedral too; it's time to recognize who we have become."  (Ummm...Place de Pigalle anyone?)

 Le sigh.

I think it's going to be a struggle - someone is going to take point - the building is owned by the French government and the Catholic Church is allowed to use it in perpetuity. I assume it will be a concerted effort between the two with the French government having the final say in the decisions. There is merit in recreating the look of the building and there is merit in modernizing it to an extent in order to prevent future disasters as much as possible. The building has a storied history - it hasn't always and only been a Catholic church. At one point, it was used for storage. So, yes, over time, the building has had some changes that reflected the culture at the time.

I think the biggest challenge is going to be preserving the stone structure - it has been falling apart for a long time - that's why it was under renovation. If I had my way, I'd vote for temporary measures to prevent further damage,  followed by a clean out, preserving as much of the materials as possible. Then, work on the structure of the building itself to make sure it is as stable as possible - the cracks, falling gargoyles, etc. need to be repaired. I think we should use modern materials whenever possible to do this if they will add longevity to the building, but it should be done as discreetly as possible. Add a sprinkler system if & where it is appropriate. I am a traditionalist, generally, so I think visually, it should look exactly like it did when the fire started and with the changes & improvements that were planned with the renovation that was underway.  I don't think the idea that it is a church should be scrapped at all - while it didn't function as a Parish, it did function as a church, with multiple services daily as well as making priests available to function in a pastoral role to the multitudes of visitors that came.  I hope that  with the agreement that is in place with the Catholic church, changing it's form and function in a significant way, one that reflects a post-Christian culture, would not be possible.

To those who want to modernize it aesthetically - they should see the "modern" Protestant church buildings going up in the US. They are basically warehouses and they are ugly. They do nothing to draw one's attention to God. It's really sad.

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1 hour ago, Patty Joanna said:

3...2...1....yup, it's already begun.  The battle for the repaired ND Cathedral should look like:  less Catholic, more modern, new sculptures, Place de Pigalle-style accessorizing and so on.  "We are not a religious nation anymore and yet this is our cathedral too; it's time to recognize who we have become."  (Ummm...Place de Pigalle anyone?)

Le sigh.

Could you explain what you object to in the Pigalle clean up? It was like NYC's Times Square pre-gentrification, sex shops and drug dealers occupying prime real estate. I can understand wanting Notre Dame to be exactly the same as before, but I don't understand wanting to preserve squalor right in the heart of a city.

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47 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I think it's going to be a struggle - someone is going to take point - the building is owned by the French government and the Catholic Church is allowed to use it in perpetuity. I assume it will be a concerted effort between the two with the French government having the final say in the decisions. There is merit in recreating the look of the building and there is merit in modernizing it to an extent in order to prevent future disasters as much as possible. The building has a storied history - it hasn't always and only been a Catholic church. At one point, it was used for storage. So, yes, over time, the building has had some changes that reflected the culture at the time.

I think the biggest challenge is going to be preserving the stone structure - it has been falling apart for a long time - that's why it was under renovation. If I had my way, I'd vote for temporary measures to prevent further damage,  followed by a clean out, preserving as much of the materials as possible. Then, work on the structure of the building itself to make sure it is as stable as possible - the cracks, falling gargoyles, etc. need to be repaired. I think we should use modern materials whenever possible to do this if they will add longevity to the building, but it should be done as discreetly as possible. Add a sprinkler system if & where it is appropriate. I am a traditionalist, generally, so I think visually, it should look exactly like it did when the fire started and with the changes & improvements that were planned with the renovation that was underway.  I don't think the idea that it is a church should be scrapped at all - while it didn't function as a Parish, it did function as a church, with multiple services daily as well as making priests available to function in a pastoral role to the multitudes of visitors that came.  I hope that  with the agreement that is in place with the Catholic church, changing it's form and function in a significant way, one that reflects a post-Christian culture, would not be possible.

To those who want to modernize it aesthetically - they should see the "modern" Protestant church buildings going up in the US. They are basically warehouses and they are ugly. They do nothing to draw one's attention to God. It's really sad.

 

Are you sure it didn't function as a Parish?  I'm under the impression that it did. Maybe I misunderstood Jennifer's story though.

 

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12 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

Are you sure it didn't function as a Parish?  I'm under the impression that it did. Maybe I misunderstood Jennifer's story though.

 

There are daily masses at Notre Dame and it is the seat of the Archbishop of Paris but it's not a regular parish (with weddings, funerals, baptisms, CCE, etc.) There's a smaller church called St. Louis en l'Ile that's about three blocks away in the residential area of Ile Saint Louis. That's the parish that serves that area.

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19 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

Are you sure it didn't function as a Parish?  I'm under the impression that it did. Maybe I misunderstood Jennifer's story though.

 

It's my understanding that it doesn't function as a Parish. I didn't see anything in her story that makes me think otherwise. There are Priests assigned there and it is the home of the Catholic Church in France, but it's my understanding that the building is a consecrated church, but functions for the benefit of the tourists, including the religious services provided by the Catholic church. Certainly, I imagine, the Paris residents attend mass there if they want to (there is mass at least daily, as well as vespers), but I don't think they can be baptized, attend CCD, be confirmed, married  & have other benefits of Parish life available through that location. I am absolutely open to be wrong on this, though. I did some quick searching as a result of your question (I'm working from my memory of my visit there) and didn't see anything definitive one way or another.

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From Channel News Asia https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/on-american-hard-drives-the-most-accurate-3d-model-of-notre-dame-11452834

“On American hard drives, the most accurate 3D model of Notre-Dame

17 Apr 2019 10:01AM

WASHINGTON: At Vassar College in the United States, a university team gathered the week before the devastating fire at Notre-Dame cathedral in Paris to plan an ambitious project: inventorying about a terabyte of 3D modeling data of the famed Gothic masterpiece.

The precious data - the most accurate in the world - is the work of Andrew Tallon, a Francophile American art professor who loved medieval architecture and was passionate about Gothic cathedral. He died in November.

His technique was nothing new, but his application of the tools was innovative. In 2011 and 2012, funded by a foundation, Tallon used a laser device to accurately measure the interior and exterior of the cathedral, which was ravaged by flames this week.

He placed the device in about 50 places to measure the distance between each wall and pillar, recess, statue or other form - and to record all the imperfections intrinsic to any centuries-old monument.

The result is over a billion points in the "point cloud". The final computer-generated images reconstruct the cathedral down to the smallest detail, including its tiny defects, with a precision of about 5mm. 

These images, for example, confirmed how the west side of the cathedral was a "total mess ... a train wreck", Tallon told National Geographic in 2015, pointing to the misalignment of the interior columns.

He wanted to get "into the mind of the builders," said his former student Lindsay Cook, a Francophile like Tallon who is now a visiting assistant professor of art at Vassar.

"He was interested in using laserscan data to find moments like small ruptures in the construction, places where things were not exactly straight or in plumb, where you could see the hand of an individual architect at work, and in that case the hand of individual masons," Cook told AFP.”

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3 hours ago, chiguirre said:

Could you explain what you object to in the Pigalle clean up? It was like NYC's Times Square pre-gentrification, sex shops and drug dealers occupying prime real estate. I can understand wanting Notre Dame to be exactly the same as before, but I don't understand wanting to preserve squalor right in the heart of a city.

I'm using it as an example because the computer-generated impressions of how ND Cathedral should be updated look a lot like Pigalle.  Pigalle cleaned up a nasty district--that is good.  But as a replacement for or a "complementary update" to a gothic cathedral, it is __________.  (wanting.  hideous.  dissonant. ( you choose)). 

ETA, for the 18th time good grief:  I was thinking if the Pompidou center, not Pigalle.  My bad.

ETA:  Lest it be thought that I'm just being a curmudgeon yelling Git Offa My Lawn, I could TOTALLY see using modern materials--steel ceiling supports as opposed to wood, for example.  I haven't thought through everything related to what this means, and I never will...I'm not that smart.  The reason I posted the comment quoted here was that in an *earlier* post, I had me doubts that this issue would not arise, that the cry, "We will rebuild" would take on multiple dimensions and that it is really impossible to "rebuild" what was there, due to loss of craftsmanship, unavailability of matching materials, and most notably, the destruction of the culture and spirit that built Notre Dame in the first place.  This is already playing out.  That's all.  

ETA (if I can):  

 

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Wow.  If it's scanned in that much detail, anything is possible.  In theory they could use steel beams and 3D print plastic wraps that look identical to the original wood.  They could run hidden LED lights and sprinklers and speakers and ducting to improve the technologies in the future with ease.

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3 hours ago, Patty Joanna said:

I'm using it as an example because the computer-generated impressions of how ND Cathedral should be updated look a lot like Pigalle.  Pigalle cleaned up a nasty district--that is good.  But as a replacement for or a "complementary update" to a gothic cathedral, it is __________.  (wanting.  hideous.  dissonant. ( you choose)). 

ETA, for the 18th time good grief:  I was thinking if the Pompidou center, not Pigalle.  My bad.

ETA:  Lest it be thought that I'm just being a curmudgeon yelling Git Offa My Lawn, I could TOTALLY see using modern materials--steel ceiling supports as opposed to wood, for example.  I haven't thought through everything related to what this means, and I never will...I'm not that smart.  The reason I posted the comment quoted here was that in an *earlier* post, I had me doubts that this issue would not arise, that the cry, "We will rebuild" would take on multiple dimensions and that it is really impossible to "rebuild" what was there, due to loss of craftsmanship, unavailability of matching materials, and most notably, the destruction of the culture and spirit that built Notre Dame in the first place.  This is already playing out.  That's all.  

ETA (if I can):  

 

That concept is kinda horrifying...

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4 hours ago, Patty Joanna said:

I'm using it as an example because the computer-generated impressions of how ND Cathedral should be updated look a lot like Pigalle.  Pigalle cleaned up a nasty district--that is good.  But as a replacement for or a "complementary update" to a gothic cathedral, it is __________.  (wanting.  hideous.  dissonant. ( you choose)). 

ETA, for the 18th time good grief:  I was thinking if the Pompidou center, not Pigalle.  My bad.

ETA:  Lest it be thought that I'm just being a curmudgeon yelling Git Offa My Lawn, I could TOTALLY see using modern materials--steel ceiling supports as opposed to wood, for example.  I haven't thought through everything related to what this means, and I never will...I'm not that smart.  The reason I posted the comment quoted here was that in an *earlier* post, I had me doubts that this issue would not arise, that the cry, "We will rebuild" would take on multiple dimensions and that it is really impossible to "rebuild" what was there, due to loss of craftsmanship, unavailability of matching materials, and most notably, the destruction of the culture and spirit that built Notre Dame in the first place.  This is already playing out.  That's all.  

ETA (if I can):  

 

If this is what they intend, why bother keeping the structure at all?  This would make it irrelevant.  O gee, what's that weird old building?!?

 

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2 hours ago, dirty ethel rackham said:

If this is what they intend, why bother keeping the structure at all?  This would make it irrelevant.  O gee, what's that weird old building?!?

 

I believe that was a joke, not a real intention.

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10 hours ago, chiguirre said:

I guess that's possible, but I don't think it's likely. I think they'll go for a more I.M. Pei Pyramid in the Louvre vibe. Remember that that started out as the butt of jokes and eventually morphed into a Paris icon.

https://www.architectmagazine.com/awards/aia-honor-awards/louvre-pyramid-the-folly-that-became-a-triumph_o

800px-Louvre_Museum_Wikimedia_Commons.jpg

Icon, maybe, but only in that it is recognizable. Out of sync with it’s surroundings, most definitely. It definitely detrracts from the architecture that surrounds it, which is sad. In person, the pyramid looks plastic to me and the glass is cloudy & dirty, which makes the pyramid as a stand alone piece less appealing to me. 

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From Reuters https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-notredame/scaffolding-firm-says-workers-smoked-at-paris-notre-dame-idUSKCN1S02HR

“A spokesman for family-owned Le Bras Freres, confirming a report in French weekly Le Canard Enchaine, told Reuters that some workers of its Europe Echafaudage scaffolding unit had informed police that they had “sometimes” smoked on the scaffolding, despite a smoking ban on the site. 

“We condemn it. But the fire started inside the building... so for company Le Bras this is not a hypothesis, it was not a cigarette butt that set Notre-Dame de Paris on fire,” Le Bras Frères spokesman Marc Eskenazi said. 

The Canard Enchaine reported that police had found the remains of seven cigarette butts in the burnt-out cathedral. 

“This is not wrong,” said a source close to the investigation, who declined all other comment. 

Eskenazi said it was impossible to set a log on fire with a cigarette butt and questioned how cigarette butts could have been found on the site. 

“If cigarette butts have survived the inferno, I do not know what material they were made of,” he said.”

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One of the people I saw on the news the day after (either CBS or BBC) said it was electrical and started in an elevator shaft, which is why the alarms were going off 22 minutes before they could find flames or smoke, which is how it got so out of control. I THINK it was the deputy mayor of Paris, but it may have been a woman who worked at Notre Dame.

About a week later it was confirmed by the fire department per ABC news that the source of the fire was electrical in nature. .

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From BBC: Notre-Dame fire: Lead test call for pregnant women and children https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48510976

“A week after the fire, Paris police said the threat from lead exposure was "very localised", but warned people living near the landmark to use "wet wipes to eliminate any dust". 

Now the Regional Health Agency in Paris has launched an "environmental investigation" after the child tested positive for lead in a blood test. 

The test contained more than 50 micrograms per litre of lead, the agency said.

As a result, children under seven and pregnant women who live on the Île de la Cité - the island area where Notre-Dame was built - have been urged to consult their doctor "as a precaution".

Investigators are seeking to establish the cause of the child's exposure, adding that "other factors" aside from lead released by the fire are not being ruled out.”

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