Doran Posted February 17, 2008 Author Share Posted February 17, 2008 I'm sorry you feel lectured. ...many people did suggest that you talk with the young man. It seems to me you overlooked that when responding to the responses.;) I should've just left it at thank you very much. I really wanted that to be the prevailing message in that last post. I know everyone is trying to help, and you're absolutely correct that not everyone reads the middle posts in a thread. That "feeling lectured" thing is a close cousin to the "feeling guilty" thing, at least in my world. Had I chosen those words instead, the onus would be on me rather than those who are just doing what gets done here. So...thank you. Doran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam "SFSOM" in TN Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 That "feeling lectured" thing is a close cousin to the "feeling guilty" thing, at least in my world. Wow. That's really true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in Tx Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Hey Doran, I have hesitated posting further on this thread, because it does appear that you've come to peace with a good solution.. but I've got just a couple more thing to offer if you don't mind listening :). 1. I think your decision to soft ball this is very good. Doing it in a way that preserves the young man's dignity and comfort around your family will earn his respect and your daughter's trust with this issue in general (this is going to be precedent setting, isn't it?). 2. One thing I keep thinking about... is it at all possible that hosting dinner for this young man will send mixed signals? On one hand you're saying that he's getting too close, yet on the other you're inviting him into an intimate family setting. If you want to keep the friendship limited to the class, etc., perhaps it might be best not to engage him socially outside of class? Maybe I'm wrong... this is just my gut reaction... but it seems as though you want to tell him to back off a little, but you also want to show some sort of honor or respect for his feelings towards your dd. I can see how that might potentially confuse the boy. It's a toughie, for sure. 3. Along those lines, I have a suggestion for how to soft ball it (this may not sit well with you, and if not then completely ignore me... I'm just thinking out loud :). What if you took responsibility for this and removed from him all sense of blame (so that he isn't embarrassed)? Perhaps you could go to him and say that you need to talk to him because you feel *really* bad about something... that you allowed the friendship with the emails and all, and didn't realize anything romantic was blooming, and that you feel terribly, terribly bad if you misled him into thinking that you were approving of his romantic interest in her all along. And that if you had to do it all over again, you would have made it clear up front that your dd is not yet of an age where you are comfortable allowing this, and that you're really sorry you didn't recognize where this was all going and say something sooner. You can even say that if your daughter were a little older, you'd be honored to have such a fine young man as him show interest in her, yadda yadda. Doran, please understand that I'm not saying that this is how you SHOULD feel... but it (or some version of it) might be a way that avoids uncomfrotableness, and might even leave him feeling good about the whole thing. And it also acknowledges a possibility that he pursued this thinking that you were perfectly fine with it all along, which will help him understand why now the sudden switch (because you didn't understand what he was thinking at the time). Don't know if any of this helps or not... but good luck with it, and I'm glad you're so sensitive to your dd's feelings and those of the young man as well. I tried to give you a rep point for it earlier, but it wouldn't let me for some reason! Have a great day! Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaceyinLA Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 I think communication is the key, and keeping her from speaking to him is probably not going to do anything but damage that. I'd just be clear in my expectations (ie the not dating) and allow the friendship to continue, though in a very limited manner. I do want to comment that the responses about his being illegal are NOT true. He IS an adult, but it is NOT illegal for him to talk to your dd on the phone, by e-mail, etc. It is ONLY illegal for there to be physical contact (and then, probably technically only sexual activity). I'm not saying that the situation is right or wrong, only that them being friends is NOT illegal. I do have 3 teenage girls. I would not disallow them contact with older boys on a friendly level, but I would not allow them to date someone with this age difference (and wouldn't allow dating at 13 anyway). At this point, my oldest dd is nearly 19 and I think she would actually benefit greatly from dating someone 24 years old. Guys her age are just TOO immature for her. A 13-18 gap is great at that age, although probably not really that far in actual mental maturity. Still, I think the other issues with that gap are too great. Okay, so I chimed in more than I intended... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 That "feeling lectured" thing is a close cousin to the "feeling guilty" thing, at least in my world. I imagine most of us can identify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 I've given this situation a fair amount of thought (which is why I keep reading the new posts here:)) and agree with what Robin shared. I would feel wrong inviting someone out to dinner (or lunch or whatever) in order to convey these sentiments. To me, it sends a very mixed message ~ particularly to someone whose language are culture are not necessarily in sync with ours. Anyway, I trust it will all work out for the best. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse. Just contemplating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 I'm not saying that the situation is right or wrong, only that them being friends is NOT illegal. I didn't hear that from anyone in this discussion. Perhaps I missed it? At this point, my oldest dd is nearly 19 and I think she would actually benefit greatly from dating someone 24 years old. Yes, but as you implied, there's a world of difference between that age gap and the one Doran's daughter is facing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doran Posted February 18, 2008 Author Share Posted February 18, 2008 Seriously, I'm touched that some of you have given this so much thought on my behalf. I hope in some way that this thread is helping others -- that "dead horse" you mentioned, Colleen? I sure hope he's not starting to stink. :o Dh and I sneaked out briefly this evening while our sick kids dozed on the couch (they're so cute -- two of them trying to share the same small couch), and we talked about this situation again. For a change, we were able to have a conversation before 11pm when we were sure the children were asleep. It's looking more like dh may be the one to meet with this young man and try to help him see why we can't approve of this "relationship". And, as Robin so wisely suggested, we had already been thinking along the lines of trying to "take the heat" ourselves, to some extent, so that he doesn't have to feel quite so much...what...humiliation? We're not sure how we're going to arrange a meeting. The fellow does not drive, and dh does not even know him, except that he's seen him once or twice. All things we can sort out. I won't be talking to our daughter about this again until she's recovered from this flu. One small, twisted silver lining is that she's sure not emailing anyone while she's so sick! Thanks again, guys. Really. Doran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volty Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 The romantic teen in my is getting all warm and fuzzy about it...which is what sends off red warning lights in my adult self.:rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 I grew up in SF and went to UC Berk. I found that I got along well with foreign students because they were more accustomed to families have a 'claim' to control of their children into high school and college years than US students did. So most of my close friends in college were from Egypt or Central America, or were very conservative Catholics. Anyway, at that time, it was sort of common for guys from those countries to assume that American girls were sl**tty, and that their aggressive attentions would be well received. It was also pretty common for American girls to excuse them for being aggressive because they thought it reflected their culture, not realizing that these guys would NEVER have treated someone from their own countries in this manner. It was also interesting that once I clearly established with them that my own personal boundaries were pretty much like those of their sisters, they respected and understood that better than a lot of American guys did. So, I think it's really nice that you are trying to understand this guy from the point of view of his culture, and based on my experience there are a few things he might be thinking. One, that your daugher is very sweet and innocent and more like an ideal girl from back home than other American girls are. Or, two, that your daughter is gullible and an interesting challenge or maybe even a ticket to a green card. Or, three, that he just likes her more than anyone else--but give their age difference, that seems a little strange to me. But it's possible. If I were you, I would send a very very clear message to him now. She's not able to be courted at this time, but he can visit while you are home, ONLY. No cell phoning, and you will read all of her email before she does. Period. The other observation that I have is about your DD's appearance of age and her friendships with older girls. I think that that puts a great burden on her, and it's up to you to help with it. There is a boy in our church who looks 3 years older than he is, and has since he was 3. Everyone expects behavior and maturity from him of which he is not capable. It's not reasonable, but it's based on his height and mature appearance. Also, in my 8th grade parachial school graduating class of 12 students, there were several girls who were s*xually active. One had VD, and another was pregnant and had an abortion over the summer. Both of them were physically quite mature and had older brothers who their parents trusted to take them to parties and chaperone them. The one with VD caught it from her 25YO BF. The one who was pregnant had been with a high school boy whose last name and high school she did not know. Obviously these boys were predators, and your DD's friend does not sound so overtly that way, but they were also charming and flattered these girls with their attentions (an older man! Woah!). I have since read that most teenage girls who have s*x during and before high school do so with men who are of age--18 and older. They are presented with situations where it seems more sophisticated to go forward, and find it difficult to risk slowing down, for fear of seeming 'young.' It seems unfair to me to allow a 13 year old to possibly be put into that position. You're such a great parent--I think you are right to have some red flags here, and I applaud your sensitivity to hurting either the boy's feeling or your DD's, but I also think that you would be wise to limit and monitor the situation more closely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volty Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Another perspective, just thought I'd throw it out there. 18 is just an awful age for men. Girls your age are highly targeted by other guys into the mid 20s and upwards that have good jobs while you live with your mom and work at Burger King. Girls younger than you land you get you statuatory rape charges and a lifetime on the sexual predator list. 18 is glorious for girls but it really sucks for boys. Also I'm already on record as saying Doran should tactfully end the romance, just like everybody else. I don't mind him reaching down in age a fw when he's 18, I did, but going down all the way to 13 is quite a stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doran Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 It was also interesting that once I clearly established with them that my own personal boundaries were pretty much like those of their sisters, they respected and understood that better than a lot of American guys did. [\quote] Let's hope the same is true here. The other observation that I have is about your DD's appearance of age and her friendships with older girls. I think that that puts a great burden on her, and it's up to you to help with it. ...I applaud your sensitivity to hurting either the boy's feeling or your DD's, but I also think that you would be wise to limit and monitor the situation more closely. Yes, this is a good observation and one I have considered. Our dd seems to gravitate easily toward kids who are a bit older than her -- they seem a better match for her maturity and intellect. And, that's fine in most cases, but it's NOT find in this one. :-) Thanks, Carol, for taking time to post this. And Volty, I also appreciate your additional thoughts. I wouldn't know what it's like to be an 18 year old boy. :rolleyes: But, it sure wasn't an easy age for my two older brothers. Shoot, really I just think the ages between 12 and 20 are about the hardest we all live go through. Way too much individuality eruption and psyche bruising going on in those years for people to come out completely unscathed. At least, IMO. Doran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 our daughter, who turned 13 in August, has struck up a friendship with a young man from El Salvador who is in our karate class. We've "known" him for over a year, as a classmate. We don't know much else about him except that he lives with a sister and that his parents are, we think, still in El Salvador. He is an 18 year old junior in high school who is very polite, friendly, and pleasant. My initial impression is that there may be some major cultural differences showing themselves here. I don't have any daughters. I am writing from the perspective of a previously thirteen-year-old girl being pursued by the older men in our hispanic community. My mom used to shrug and say, "It's just different there; it's okay there." It's true. In that culture, assumptions about the roles of people of different ages and genders are not the same as those held by your typical white, middle class, long-ago-immigrated Protestant European American. I'm not sure you are actually any of those things, but you know what I mean, right? It's not the same as in dominant American culture. So, two points about where he may be coming from: According to my experiences, in Latin American cultures, loving gestures are normalized, so attention and affection between two individuals isn't necessarily a sign of romantic interest; and, large age differences (with the male older) aren't stigmatized, but seen as totally appropriate. I would probably return the flower and chocolates and tell the boy you just want to be friends. If he tries again, I'd cut off the relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Doran, As if you need another perspective, I'm going to offer mine. :D I think you have done a terrific job honoring your dd's growing maturity, being gracious to this young man and navigating the quagmire of awakening romanticism and dare I say......sexuality. I am *not* of the courtship mindset. I'm of the, hm.....how to explain this... I'm of the "remember their bodies mature faster than their hearts and minds in our culture, delay dating but do not needlessly create a situation which encourages sneakiness" mindset. ;) I think your dd would benefit from discussing these issues with her: 1) Distribution of power in relationships. Even if he (18 year old) intent is not to find someone over which he can have power, the fact of the age difference at this stage of development = he has more power. 2) Discussion about her body and the energy, feelings and tinglyness that is created by meeting certain men. It's a GREAT feeling. I'm not a believer that it "gets awakened" or that it is to be avoided. I think it is yet another area children/humans need to develop self control that manifest in honoring their (and, as minors, their parents) value system. 3) Cultural differences about romantic involvement, comfort with level of relationships at earlier ages, adjustment into a different culture, even how "Valentines Day" might contribute to miscommunication. 4) Age differences in general and why they are of particular concern at these ages but not as much "later." I agree with continuing some kind of public relationship. My son has a "girl interest" (an age peer, in this case). He talks with her on the phone, emails with her and sees her at various church or homeschool events. I haven't checked his email; but I have access should I decide to - he knows that. *sigh* Sleeplness nights with infants were easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Another perspective, just thought I'd throw it out there. 18 is just an awful age for men. Girls your age are highly targeted by other guys into the mid 20s and upwards that have good jobs while you live with your mom and work at Burger King. Girls younger than you land you get you statuatory rape charges and a lifetime on the sexual predator list. 18 is glorious for girls but it really sucks for boys. Volty, I tried to rep you for this comment because I just wanted to say, wow, thanks for the perspective (I must have repped you before because it wouldn't let me). Never thought about it that way since my 5 oldest are daughters, but how true. My 17yo has outgrown the typical 18yo and generally hangs out with guys in their early 20's she's met at work or classes. She has one friend who's 18, but he's the exception. Not that an 18yo can't befriend a 16yo, but yeah, I guess he has to be on guard. Poor guys. My son is just two, but I'm filing away the insights I gain from you all so that I'm a pro by the time he hits his teens. Barb PS to Doran: I think at this point the discussion has taken on an abstract life of its own. This has been really helpful to those of us with teens or those of us who see those years looming on the horizon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doran Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 Doran, As if you need another perspective, I'm going to offer mine. :D I think you have done a terrific job honoring your dd's growing maturity, being gracious to this young man and navigating the quagmire of awakening romanticism and dare I say......sexuality. I am *not* of the courtship mindset. I'm of the, hm.....how to explain this... I'm of the "remember their bodies mature faster than their hearts and minds in our culture, delay dating but do not needlessly create a situation which encourages sneakiness" mindset. ;) I think your dd would benefit from discussing these issues with her: 1) Distribution of power in relationships. Even if he (18 year old) intent is not to find someone over which he can have power, the fact of the age difference at this stage of development = he has more power. 2) Discussion about her body and the energy, feelings and tinglyness that is created by meeting certain men. It's a GREAT feeling. I'm not a believer that it "gets awakened" or that it is to be avoided. I think it is yet another area children/humans need to develop self control that manifest in honoring their (and, as minors, their parents) value system. 3) Cultural differences about romantic involvement, comfort with level of relationships at earlier ages, adjustment into a different culture, even how "Valentines Day" might contribute to miscommunication. 4) Age differences in general and why they are of particular concern at these ages but not as much "later." I agree with continuing some kind of public relationship. My son has a "girl interest" (an age peer, in this case). He talks with her on the phone, emails with her and sees her at various church or homeschool events. I haven't checked his email; but I have access should I decide to - he knows that. *sigh* Sleeplness nights with infants were easier. Thank you, Joanne. I appreciate you offering your "take" here, and I find your talking points for us to use with our daughter quite useful. In fact, we have already discussed some of these points during the days leading up to now, but some others, not so much. Amen to that sleepless nights bit! Isn't it funny how, when they were infants, there seemed to be so many "crises". Little did we know, right? Doran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoKat Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 My initial thoughts: He's from El Salavador? Latin American men have their "hot" reputation for a reason. Machismo, I think is the word. My concern would be with the cultural values about dating that different (not bad) just very different. Benefit of the doubt, he's probably great guy and his intentions are honorable. But the fact that he gave her a Valentine that he knew would make her and you uncomfortable speaks volumes. In what other areas might he not respect your dd feelings or your decisions for her as her parents? Also the fact that your dd didn't feel comfortable telling him truly how he was feeling makes me a little uneasy for her. She should feel comfortable saying no to the guy she's dating--why didn't she feel comfortable? A friend that makes your dd feel unable to speak up, take a stand, say, "No Thank you" to is suspect. Respect is a two-way street. Your dd sounds like a wonderful young lady. I think this experience will help her to be come even stronger. It's wonderful that she has you to talk these things over with. It's going to help her so much in life. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 But the fact that he gave her a Valentine that he knew would make her and you uncomfortable speaks volumes. In what other areas might he not respect your dd feelings or your decisions for her as her parents? Also the fact that your dd didn't feel comfortable telling him truly how he was feeling makes me a little uneasy for her. She should feel comfortable saying no to the guy she's dating--why didn't she feel comfortable? A friend that makes your dd feel unable to speak up, take a stand, say, "No Thank you" to is suspect. Respect is a two-way street. :) I do think that it's ideal for everyone to be open and honest. But the fact that Dd felt a little uncomfortable telling him truly how she was feeling actually sounds to me like she is trying to save him from hurt feelings, at least partly. And even her mother is a little uncomfortable telling him how she really feels. This is a genuinely tricky situation, and I think that everyone's guardedness is reflective of good will and good intentions. The question is what to do. I know grown women who can't say 'no thank you' to a guy who wants to date them--many grown women. And even though I personally am pretty assertive, society doesn't support that for younger women very well. This young girl has parents who love her and want to protect her in as respectful a manner as possible. It should not be her sole job to do this, and I applaud them for thinking about stepping in, and also for wanting to do it sensitively. Her reluctance to do this herself, IMO, should not necessarily be construed as a red flag, but rather as a call to action on her behalf--and her parents have taken it that way, which I think is admirable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammyla Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 This is an interesting thread to me as the mom of a 13 year old dd. I've enjoyed reading each and every response. We are firmly planted in our rules, but it's interesting to read how others would handle this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doran Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 This is an interesting thread to me as the mom of a 13 year old dd. I've enjoyed reading each and every response. We are firmly planted in our rules, but it's interesting to read how others would handle this. Of course it's valuable to me. But, I'm pleased to know that maybe this is helpful to others as well. There are times that I let myself think that this whole thing makes us look like terrible, permissive parents and that whole congregations of "you" are now shaking your heads and saying "Tsk-tsk". Even though I know that's not really the case (and many of you have said as much). I keep looking around for that handbook that they give you when you have kids -- you know, the one with all the rules and methods outlined in perfect detail. :rolleyes: Doran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxxxxxxx Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 My parents allowed my sister to have an 17 yo "friend" when she was 13. She was not allowed to date....well, this relationship went on "innocently" until she was allowed to date @ 16. He was 20 and in college. He came home every weekend to date her, sent her flowers, etc.... My sis married this man just after her 19th birthday. He was 23. Their married life was a joke. She was in college, he was out and had a job. Now that he finally "had" her, he ignored her. He went to bars with his friends.....She stayed home and studied. She cleaned, cooked, did the laundry, and studied some more...He went out with his friends and slept in every weekend because he had had too much to drink the night before. Their marriage ended in less than 4 years. IMHO, stop the relationship....she is too young and what does an 18 yo see in a 13 yo?!? BTW, I think it sounds like you are handling things well, but from my experience I'd be afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snickerdoodle Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I've said earlier that the important point is that the 13 year old girl (IMO) is too young for dating. Somebody, the parents or the girl needs to gently tell this young man that this situation will not progress. The information about the boy's age, heritage, citizenship, etc. is irrelevant. I would really hate to see negative stereotypes flying around. The boy has shown an interest in the girl. He has given her flowers and a box of chocolates. Am I missing something here? I don't know where the macho man who wants to marry the girl and ruin her life just so he can get a green card got into this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedbel Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Apparently, he asked her if she would "get in trouble" if he gave them to her This worries me. If he asked her that it means he realizes that you guys might not approve of the gesture because of her age. I felt the desire to reply to your post because interestingly enough when I was 13 yrs old I was pursued by a 19 yr. old man from El Salvador:eek: This in SOME not all Hispanic cultures is totally normal and acceptable. My parents are Cuban and were totally against me having any kind of relationship with him because of the age difference. They explained it to him but sadly the young man did not respect my parents decision and started to secretly send me cards, flowers etc. I was an extremely naive young girl raised in a very Christian conservative home. I like your daughter liked the young man and because of his continued pursuit of me developed quite an affection for him. It was dangerous because he soon had me doubting my parents and the entire time was trying to convince me that it was unfair that they did not "approve" of him. To make a long story short my parents found out, threatened him with legal action if he did not stop all contact with me and he finally backed off. It caused much unnecessary turmoil and sadness in my young life. Years later I heard through a friend that he was struggling with alcoholism. About a year after that I ran into him in a park and was shocked to see him holding hands with a girl that could not have been more than fifteen yrs old (he was 26 at the time). I am so thankful my parents chose to protect me. Please be careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoKat Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 "I know grown women who can't say 'no thank you' to a guy who wants to date them--many grown women. And even though I personally am pretty assertive, society doesn't support that for younger women very well. This young girl has parents who love her and want to protect her in as respectful a manner as possible. It should not be her sole job to do this, and I applaud them for thinking about stepping in, and also for wanting to do it sensitively. Her reluctance to do this herself, IMO, should not necessarily be construed as a red flag, but rather as a call to action on her behalf--and her parents have taken it that way, which I think is admirable" I guess I'm not comfortable stopping conversations when I get to the point that it might suggest they not act like everyone else because it's hard. I agree that this should not be her solely her job. That's what her wonderful parents are for. In addition to stepping into this current situation, it is also a great on-going conversation, coaching, discipling topic on being strong, assertive, and practicing polite ways to say no in difficult or uncomfortable situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinkInTheBlue Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 There are times that I let myself think that this whole thing makes us look like terrible, permissive parents and that whole congregations of "you" are now shaking your heads and saying "Tsk-tsk". Even though I know that's not really the case (and many of you have said as much). I keep looking around for that handbook that they give you when you have kids -- you know, the one with all the rules and methods outlined in perfect detail. :rolleyes: Doran I'm still amazed they let us have babies and just take them home as if we have ANY idea what to do with them! LOL :D Doran, I've actually read this entire thread and the impression you've made on me is that you are a well thought out parent who is working with your husband to make the best decision you know how. Keep in mind, your topic is one to likely spark memories and passions with people who have been though something similar or are concerned they might in the future. Most are just speaking from personal passion and compassion for you. :) You're doing wonderfully and I hope I handle these situations with such a clear head in my future. (fingers crossed :o) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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