why??? Update in first post

[gardenmom5]

How do I figure out why I'm trying to have a relationship with my brother?   I have been reminded of some of the outrageous things he has done that caused me to sever contact, but I feel like I'm reaching out to him becasue "it's the right thing to do" - like maybe I can help him be less of an a------e.   of course, he thinks he's great and it's just other people don't appreciate him.   and there was something about him referring to his wife as the "love of his life" that was just laughable after two nasty divorces.

any insights?  or questions to ask myself?   I didn't address this with my counselor - but I probably will in the new year when she returns.

 

eta:

so, I saw my counselor today - and this was the subject.   basically - I'm trying to rescue him.  and she agree's he may be BPD, or even mildly schizoprhenic.   and you can't rescue someone with a personality disorder, and they will suck you in if they can. I can do boundaries - even with mr. pushy.  so, it may be back to bd, and christmas cards, and an occasional email.  maybe a  lunch in a restaurant - only to the degree I'm comfortable.  which might even be nothing.  he will not be invited back to my house.

Edited January 2, 2019 by gardenmom5

[Arcadia]

Because people want to hold on to hope.  A late paternal uncle was a wife abuser and womanizer but there were relatives who hoped he might change. Another paternal uncle is a manipulator and I think none of my relatives have any hope that he would stop manipulating before he dies. 

[J-rap]

I agree with Arcadia.  I think it's a natural reaction for people to hope.  And it's a natural reaction for a caring person to hope that a relationship with a loved one -- or at least someone who at one time was an important part of their life, can be salvaged.  

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, Seasider too said:

I’d like to think it’s because you have a desire for reconciliation (even if it’s not likely to happen - the hope is there).

But you might want to consider whether or not you might have a pattern of approval seeking. 

when my mother was alive - I felt like I couldn't stand up for myself.   (he does have a record of undermining my relationship with our mother).  since her death - I have been less tolerant of his pontificating how he knows everything about everything, and more willing to shut him down.  and he whines about how I shut him down. . . . . bless his heart.  Tonight, he  kept going on about how wonderful paleo is - he wants you to agree with him (about whatever he's spouting) to validate him.

tonight - I invited him and his wife. (along with our sister and her husband). his wife didn't come - the guy he calls "my brother of the heart" came with him.   I didn't know until he showed up.

[gardenmom5]

Just now, Thatboyofmine said:

In addition to what others have mentioned, another thing to ponder is if “family, family, family” was drilled into your head while growing up.   I think that’s my problem anyway.   It’s hard to disconnect from a family member when “family is the most important thing” was drilled into you from day one.  

yes - to a degree.   good insight.

[gardenmom5]

oh yes - and he's a big believe in conspiracy theories and men in black helicopters.

[Chris in VA]

7 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

oh yes - and he's a big believe in conspiracy theories and men in black helicopters.

He sounds like my son. My daughter has a hard time with him. I hate that they are repeating the sibling pattern I had with my now-deceased brother. 

I agree with other  posters that there  might be core beliefs coming into play. But I would encourage you to find a way to love him and stay in relationship with him, even if you have to put strict boundaries in place. Reconciliation can be possible, even when someone is ideologically extremely different. For me, part of MY core beliefs meant the loving person I desired to be needed to find a way. I am hopeful there  can be healing in my kids' case, too. 

Edited December 23, 2018 by Chris in VA

[Guest]

7 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

when my mother was alive - I felt like I couldn't stand up for myself.   (he does have a record of undermining my relationship with our mother).  since her death - I have been less tolerant of his pontificating how he knows everything about everything, and more willing to shut him down.  and he whines about how I shut him down. . . . . bless his heart.  Tonight, he  kept going on about how wonderful paleo is - he wants you to agree with him (about whatever he's spouting) to validate him.

tonight - I invited him and his wife. (along with our sister and her husband). his wife didn't come - the guy he calls "my brother of the heart" came with him.   I didn't know until he showed up.

Is the bolded really a problem, though? Or was that more, “you annoy me anyway and now you bring the wrong companion.” It is possible his wife is as much a problem as his exes were; maybe she refused to go at the last minute, so he called his friend to help keep him from looking bad. 

I do know how annoying know-it-alls can be. My SIL is like that. 

[elegantlion]

My mother does this with my exdh. She even bought him a Christmas gift. Now that he's detached from me, his lies and chaos only affect him - ds is much detached from his father. My mom said for weeks she wasn't buying him anything, but then she did because "it's Christmas." She knows and understands that I want nothing to do with him, but right now he's kind of on the edge of his current life falling apart and I know she doesn't want him to feel all alone in the world. She maintains strong boundaries with him, though, and she keeps her expectations low. She also grew up with the family first type of attitude, so she does a lot of things because he's the father of her beloved grandson. 

 

 

 

[gardenmom5]

5 hours ago, Chris in VA said:

He sounds like my son. My daughter has a hard time with him. I hate that they are repeating the sibling pattern I had with my now-deceased brother. 

I agree with other  posters that there  might be core beliefs coming into play. But I would encourage you to find a way to love him and stay in relationship with him, even if you have to put strict boundaries in place. Reconciliation can be possible, even when someone is ideologically extremely different. For me, part of MY core beliefs meant the loving person I desired to be needed to find a way. I am hopeful there  can be healing in my kids' case, too. 

it isn't his ideology- I get along fairly well with my sister, who is politically and religiously quite different from me.

it is the condescension with which he treats other people (his oldest dd is currently not talking to him), and then being told "if you don't get along with him, you need to suck it up and make it work".

I hope you are respectful to your dd about her relationship with your son and stay out of it.  my mother was constantly pushing my sister at me - I eventually realized the reason I had a difficult relationship with my sister - was becasue of all the interference by my grandmother (who wanted the appearance of happy families - while doing many things to undermine the reality.) and then my mother.   

 

3 hours ago, Quill said:

Is the bolded really a problem, though? Or was that more, “you annoy me anyway and now you bring the wrong companion.” It is possible his wife is as much a problem as his exes were; maybe she refused to go at the last minute, so he called his friend to help keep him from looking bad. 

I do know how annoying know-it-alls can be. My SIL is like that. 

he said he took her to his son's friend's for thanksgiving, and "friends" there were making racist remarks.   she's vietnamese.  his 2nd wife is latina.  my first thought was he married her because an american woman wouldn't put up with his crap.  (and 2nd wife was here long enough, she eventually refused to put up with his carp.)   he met 3rd wife in a bar frequented by "large corporation" engineers.   

his friend - has a similar personality to him.  a boor.  also divorced claiming, she only married him to have a child and get child support. 

and frankly - I do consider it rude to substitute a person at the last minute without contacting a host.   or am I supposed to think my brother is so afraid of me, he has to bring someone with him so he feels "safe"?

1 hour ago, elegantlion said:

My mother does this with my exdh. She even bought him a Christmas gift. Now that he's detached from me, his lies and chaos only affect him - ds is much detached from his father. My mom said for weeks she wasn't buying him anything, but then she did because "it's Christmas." She knows and understands that I want nothing to do with him, but right now he's kind of on the edge of his current life falling apart and I know she doesn't want him to feel all alone in the world. She maintains strong boundaries with him, though, and she keeps her expectations low. She also grew up with the family first type of attitude, so she does a lot of things because he's the father of her beloved grandson. 

 

 

 

this is part of it.  when his marriage fell apart (right about the time our mother died.), while I didn't think he was innocent by any measure (his ex is also crazy - not based on anything he said, so it was both of them) - his children were all against him and I felt sorry for him so i tried to stand by him as "a friend".    (one minor child, now college age, with 2nd wife.).

dh was the executor of our mother's estate - he kept demanding a larger share (it was divided 1/3 to each child.).  he went into dh's computer, and deleted files related to mother's estate.   dh is a former auditor, his back-ups. . have back-ups.     at that point, the relationship was cut-off. 

and tbh - I think if he could have gotten a lawyer to take the case, he would have sued dh over the estate. that is NOT hyperbole.   because of that fear,, since the fee for being an executor  (cause it takes time) was not specifically spelled out in the trust/will - he didn't take one.  I was that afraid of the trouble he would cause.

and it's crap like that, that I have been asking myself - why I am I trying to have a relationship?

[gardenmom5]

and - he showed up more than an hour ahead of the time given.  I didn't even get a shower!

[elegantlion]

Ugh, I'm sorry. May your visit go well, may your tongue be held when you need it, and may he also leave an hour early. 

[hornblower]

3 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

and it's crap like that, that I have been asking myself - why I am I trying to have a relationship?

yeah, that is puzzling. He really sounds awful. I guess the question is what are you getting out of this?   

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, hornblower said:

yeah, that is puzzling. He really sounds awful. I guess the question is what are you getting out of this?   

point to ponder.

I don't even particularly feel like God expects me to have a relationship - hoping he can be a better person.   but that's not me, that's him.

so - I have no idea.

[maize]

Maybe it's time to take a break from the relationship?

Would you be able to just pull back--not invite him over, not contact from your side--without triggering massive pushback of some kind?

You don't need to cut all ties, just take a relationship vacation.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, maize said:

Maybe it's time to take a break from the relationship?

Would you be able to just pull back--not invite him over, not contact from your side--without triggering massive pushback of some kind?

You don't need to cut all ties, just take a relationship vacation.

not hard.   we hardly see each other.  he emails me, I generally ignore them.  rarely respond or initiate.

I also think it's odd that  he's married, but asking me questions on "help me find a house, come view this house with me" (i actually found the house he ended up buying - not his RE agent) etc.   "what a good getaway spot for a couple?"  and some others I think are more "talk to your wife" type questions.  

I'm just trying to figure out what my motivations are even trying to have a relationship with him.  I actually cut him off after our mother's funeral.  and I'm the one who initiated contact a few years later sending him  BD card. . . .  I'm in the information gathering stage before praying about what is the best contact. . . (years ago praying about this with my grandmother - I got "15 minutes once a week.  as long as she's nice." there were some <5 minute phone  calls.)

[Faith-manor]

I think that it is hard for you emotionally because of the horrific relationships with your mom and grandmother. It is hard to then admit there is one more that probably needs to be cut off or kept at a very great distance. There is no easy way to admit to having such a dysfunctional family. Believe me, I know. It took me a long time to figure out that I simply had to accept that my relatives were NEVER going to get any better. They had zero internal motivation. So I finally weaned myself off contact with the worst offenders, and put serious boundaries in place for the others. 

You have tried A LOT with your brother. Don't feel guilty if this time you say enough is enough.

[maize]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

not hard.   we hardly see each other.  he emails me, I generally ignore them.  rarely respond or initiate.

I also think it's odd that  he's married, but asking me questions on "help me find a house, come view this house with me" (i actually found the house he ended up buying - not his RE agent) etc.   "what a good getaway spot for a couple?"  and some others I think are more "talk to your wife" type questions.  

I'm just trying to figure out what my motivations are even trying to have a relationship with him.  I actually cut him off after our mother's funeral.  and I'm the one who initiated contact a few years later sending him  BD card. . . .  I'm in the information gathering stage before praying about what is the best contact. . . (years ago praying about this with my grandmother - I got "15 minutes once a week.  as long as she's nice." there were some <5 minute phone  calls.)

Maybe part of the motivation is ... just that he is another human, and that even if he is unable to reciprocate you are aware that he needs love. 

I don't have as much experience as you do with deeply broken people. I do believe though that even the most broken are still people; indeed--are children of God--and that the spark of divinity must still be there. And maybe, just maybe, the flame from one candle can help reignite another that is barely an ember.

And the ties of family go beyond shared DNA.

I can't begin to counsel you with regard to what level of contact if any might be healthy for you. 

My only other thought relates to the marriage vs. sibling relationship. A really healthy marriage, the kind where you can always counsel first with one another and rely on one another, requires two healthy individuals. Your brother's marriage doesn't have that. I don't know anything about his wife, but he at least is not healthy. A fractured marriage isn't the same as a healthy one, and turning to people other than marriage partners for support may just be part of that reality.

Edited December 24, 2018 by maize

[Shoeless]

I think humans are generally hopeful and optimistic.  I think we also have the desire for things to become complete and whole.  Your relationship with your brother is a chord that never resolves.  So you go back again and again, hoping that may this time some part of it will make sense and make the chord finally resolve.  

It's what keeps me going back for more of my father's nonsense.  Part of me keeps hoping he'll finally, FINALLY treat me as the person I am and not a prop in his life-movie.  This will never happen.  It makes me sad that I have to keep my father at a great distance emotionally, but he demonstrates that he will not respect my boundaries every.single.time I give him a chance to prove me wrong.  (This Christmas has already been a humdinger, let me tell you!)  

People who are troubling, if not downright toxic, are unlikely to change or see the benefit of you wanting to help them be less of an a$$#*!*.  They don't think they are doing anything wrong.  They can tell there is some tension and weirdness in the relationship, but they will always come to the conclusion that the problem is NOT them, and that it's you. Quite literally, my father once told me that I needed to be more understanding of his wife's need to be nasty, mean, and threatening to me and my child.  He does not see that her behavior was problematic and 100% believes that the problem is my reaction and not her actions.  It's like trying to make an addict see they have a problem.  They won't see it until they are ready to see it.   Many of them never see it.  

I am pondering this a lot myself today, (like I said, it's been a humdinger of a Christmas), and I feel very similar to how I felt when I left my ex husband.  My ex was an addict and an alcoholic. A lot of my mental energy was spent trying to control and correct the situation, which proved impossible.  When I finally, finally accepted my ex husband for who he was, (an addict and an alcoholic), it was done with enormous love.  It hit me that he was living with enormous tension and anger because his wife didn't accept him as he was.  He told me one night shortly before I moved out "This is the best that I can do", and I decided that I would believe him.  I would not try to control or correct him.  It wasn't my job to make him a better person or less of a jerk.  As crazy as it sounds, the most loving thing I did was to accept him for who he was, an addict and an alcoholic, and then leave him.  It wasn't fair to try to get him to change.  Even if he's a disaster as a person, it's not up to me to make that judgement and "fix" him.  That's between him and god. 

Maybe your role isn't to help your brother be less of an a$$h@!e.  Maybe your role is to truly accept him for who he is, even if that means you see him less.  Maybe loving detachment is the answer? 

 

[Scarlett]

Well I will join.  I have a brother and I can’t for the life of me figure out why I hang on.  

[gardenmom5]

46 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I think humans are generally hopeful and optimistic.  I think we also have the desire for things to become complete and whole.  Your relationship with your brother is a chord that never resolves.  So you go back again and again, hoping that may this time some part of it will make sense and make the chord finally resolve.  

It's what keeps me going back for more of my father's nonsense.  Part of me keeps hoping he'll finally, FINALLY treat me as the person I am and not a prop in his life-movie.  This will never happen.  It makes me sad that I have to keep my father at a great distance emotionally, but he demonstrates that he will not respect my boundaries every.single.time I give him a chance to prove me wrong.  (This Christmas has already been a humdinger, let me tell you!)  

People who are troubling, if not downright toxic, are unlikely to change or see the benefit of you wanting to help them be less of an a$$#*!*.  They don't think they are doing anything wrong.  They can tell there is some tension and weirdness in the relationship, but they will always come to the conclusion that the problem is NOT them, and that it's you. Quite literally, my father once told me that I needed to be more understanding of his wife's need to be nasty, mean, and threatening to me and my child.  He does not see that her behavior was problematic and 100% believes that the problem is my reaction and not her actions.  It's like trying to make an addict see they have a problem.  They won't see it until they are ready to see it.   Many of them never see it.  

I am pondering this a lot myself today, (like I said, it's been a humdinger of a Christmas), and I feel very similar to how I felt when I left my ex husband.  My ex was an addict and an alcoholic. A lot of my mental energy was spent trying to control and correct the situation, which proved impossible.  When I finally, finally accepted my ex husband for who he was, (an addict and an alcoholic), it was done with enormous love.  It hit me that he was living with enormous tension and anger because his wife didn't accept him as he was.  He told me one night shortly before I moved out "This is the best that I can do", and I decided that I would believe him.  I would not try to control or correct him.  It wasn't my job to make him a better person or less of a jerk.  As crazy as it sounds, the most loving thing I did was to accept him for who he was, an addict and an alcoholic, and then leave him.  It wasn't fair to try to get him to change.  Even if he's a disaster as a person, it's not up to me to make that judgement and "fix" him.  That's between him and god. 

Maybe your role isn't to help your brother be less of an a$$h@!e.  Maybe your role is to truly accept him for who he is, even if that means you see him less.  Maybe loving detachment is the answer? 

 

wise words - and things I "know".   I guess I need to be willing to accept him as he is - and let go of expectations he not be a jerk.

I think it does get to hope.  when I was really little, he was a good big brother.  then around 12/13 he got into drugs.  He did sober up around 20, but he joined the military and left for 25 years.  so yes, wise words.

and yeah - as far as he's concerned, everyone else is the problem.  

eta: he doesn't have power over me .. and I think that's where my tension comes from.  there was a time - he did have power over me and I lived in fear. I need to remember he has no power over me.

Edited December 24, 2018 by gardenmom5

[Shoeless]

Another idea: you can "love" your brother without loving all the parts of your brother.  You can decide what it means when you say "Of course I love my brother".  Maybe loving your brother means you only send greeting or post cards, and you never, ever allow him in your house, but you will meet him once or twice a year for dinner at a restaurant where (maybe?) he is less likely to act up.  Fully loving your brother doesn't have to mean he gets access to your home, children, or ideals held close to your heart.  

Other people may think "If you truly love someone, your relationship will look like XYZ and you will tic ABC boxes on my relationship checklist".  That's *their* definition of love.  You do not have to define it the same way, nor do you have to explain it to anyone else's satisfaction. 

[homemommy83]

On 12/23/2018 at 12:29 AM, gardenmom5 said:

oh yes - and he's a big believe in conspiracy theories and men in black helicopters.

Now don't go making fun of those of us who see black helicopters over there house every week😂😄.  Seriously, I live near a training base...and we wake up at night to training exercises...the kids love it!  

I do support you standing clearly against falsehoods and in giving him truth as well as you can. 

Brenda

P.S. Merry Christmas!!!

Edited December 25, 2018 by homemommy83

[homemommy83]

21 hours ago, MissLemon said:

Another idea: you can "love" your brother without loving all the parts of your brother.  You can decide what it means when you say "Of course I love my brother".  Maybe loving your brother means you only send greeting or post cards, and you never, ever allow him in your house, but you will meet him once or twice a year for dinner at a restaurant where (maybe?) he is less likely to act up.  Fully loving your brother doesn't have to mean he gets access to your home, children, or ideals held close to your heart.  

Other people may think "If you truly love someone, your relationship will look like XYZ and you will tic ABC boxes on my relationship checklist".  That's *their* definition of love.  You do not have to define it the same way, nor do you have to explain it to anyone else's satisfaction. 

This is exactly what we do with my twin as he is a paranoid schizophrenic (yes I know if you read my other thread early in Dec...we tend to be surrounded by mental illness...but he doesn't manipulate or mean us harm) and he has had an episode at our home and has scared our children unintentionally...so we unspokenly have not invited him over, but do meet him out...and I truly do love my brother, but I have to put my children first.

Brenda

Edited to add that with him we also text weekly and thus do keep contact..BUT he is always nice to me and our family...

Edited December 25, 2018 by homemommy83

[Scarlett]

Your relationship with your brother has mirrored the one I have with my brother. Including conspiracy theories and all that.  He is in the middle of divorcing wife number 4.  His oldest child doesn’t speak to him because he has been very very hurtful to her.  My brother is not mentally stable at all. 

But I love him.  And he loves me.  He causes me an enormous amount of pain and grief...but he is my brother and I love him.  So I work very very hard to enforce strict boundaries.  He friended me on FB recently.  Usually he is pretty tame on there.  But a few days ago he reposted a little funny joke......the original post came from a person who was saying very hurtful nasty things about my religion.......I fumed a bit that my brother had posted that.... I then chose to believe he might not have seen the origin.  His mind is all twisted up about religion...his childhood, and on and on.  But so are a lot of people....I see it often on this board, people losing their faith.  I accept that he feels how he feels-today— but I have the right to enforce a boundary that says I will not listen to negativity about my faith.  That is how we operate in general.  If he starts in I say,  STOP! And if he doesn’t stop I stop talking to him.  Period.  I am just not going to deal with it.  

Anyway, my answer is love.  We love our siblings.  I think that is a natural thing. Cutting ties—-even when necessary—-isnt natural.  

[Scarlett]

22 hours ago, MissLemon said:

Another idea: you can "love" your brother without loving all the parts of your brother.  You can decide what it means when you say "Of course I love my brother".  Maybe loving your brother means you only send greeting or post cards, and you never, ever allow him in your house, but you will meet him once or twice a year for dinner at a restaurant where (maybe?) he is less likely to act up.  Fully loving your brother doesn't have to mean he gets access to your home, children, or ideals held close to your heart.  

Other people may think "If you truly love someone, your relationship will look like XYZ and you will tic ABC boxes on my relationship checklist".  That's *their* definition of love.  You do not have to define it the same way, nor do you have to explain it to anyone else's satisfaction. 

Yes.  I read this after my post, but yes, this is what I was trying to say.  

Edited December 25, 2018 by Scarlett

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, homemommy83 said:

Now don't go making fun of those of us who see black helicopters over there house every week😂😄.  Seriously, I live near a training base...and we wake up at night to training exercises...the kids love it!  

I do support you standing clearly against falsehoods and in giving him truth as well as you can. 

Brenda

P.S. Merry Christmas!!!

mostly I ignore them.  but the youtube video of someone reading a letter about cern scientists on the run from the gov't becasue they opened a conduit into another dimension . . .  I just had to.   I thought, I'll just look up the scientists names.  really easy to tell if they're real people or not.  (I do genealogy - it's really easy.)  pages of this stuff. . . . . it was someone's REALLY BAD attempt at writing sci-fi.  it was so bad - there were people who wanted to read it and were impatiently waiting for the update.  (yeah -they knew it was bad fiction.)  

I pointed that out - he never mentioned it again.

1 hour ago, homemommy83 said:

This is exactly what we do with my twin as he is a paranoid schizophrenic (yes I know if you read my other thread early in Dec...we tend to be surrounded by mental illness...but he doesn't manipulate or mean us harm) and he has had an episode at our home and has scared our children unintentionally...so we unspokenly have not invited him over, but do meet him out...and I truly do love my brother, but I have to put my children first.

Brenda

Edited to add that with him we also text weekly and thus do keep contact..BUT he is always nice to me and our family...

my mother was schizophrenic, and bil was unstable schizophrenic.  neither of them were as difficult (and I didn't want bil in my house)

[homemommy83]

5 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

mostly I ignore them.  but the youtube video of someone reading a letter about cern scientists on the run from the gov't becasue they opened a conduit into another dimension . . .  I just had to.   I thought, I'll just look up the scientists names.  really easy to tell if they're real people or not.  (I do genealogy - it's really easy.)  pages of this stuff. . . . . it was someone's REALLY BAD attempt at writing sci-fi.  it was so bad - there were people who wanted to read it and were impatiently waiting for the update.  (yeah -they knew it was bad fiction.)  

I pointed that out - he never mentioned it again.

my mother was schizophrenic, and bil was unstable schizophrenic.  neither of them were as difficult (and I didn't want bil in my house)

I wanted to give you a wow look instead of a like, but we don't have one😉...and this wasn't confusing nor funny so I liked it for openness, but wanted to give you a wow fainting emoji.  My twin brother is also into conspiracy theories, but since I am the logical one in the family, he tends to trust me when I say something isn't true...if he really believed them it would kinda freak me out...he was extremely slow so I give him slack at being tricked easily.

  I hope that you find a way to make some strong boundaries with him though, as people like this can drain your emotional reserves....not for you to care any less...just so you can cope personally. We actually had to fully cut ties this month with my husband's aunts and mother and while it is hard to do this with family for us it was definitely the right choice.  Sometimes we have to make hard choices to protect our children and families.  I just want you to know that I support you no matter which direction you take as only you know the depth and the many little things that have brought you to this moment...and only you will know what the correct next step is.  I usually just say strong boundaries before cutting off completely, but some people give not 2 squats about your boundaries and will consistently break them (or doing worse as in our situation) and you will need to make a permanent boundary of no contact.