Can't re-sell TOG, is this true?

[Pongo]

I this saw online, one of the mods said

"From all current information, we will not be able to allow reselling of Tapestry DE because of copyright issues. If we find out otherwise, we'll certainly let you know."

 

Ouch! I was planning on TOG all the way through, but things can change.

It bugs me that if I purchase something, and it's mine, why can't I re-sell it? Is it just like that with digital products, and that's why you can't sell?

 

I'd hate to spend that much $$$ and not be able to re-coupe on it. I have Year 1-3 in paper, so for me it would only be 1 year but still, I love having my options open:001_smile:

 

What do you think?

[Guest]

It bugs me that if I purchase something, and it's mine, why can't I re-sell it? Is it just like that with digital products, and that's why you can't sell?

 

 

 

I remember when I used to work and came in contact with a lot of computer programs. The whole licensing issue was always a pain. We'd have to buy separate licenses, just to be able to add use it on all the computers in the office. You aren't supposed to share computer programs - I'm thinking of MS Office, Quickbooks, etc. (All that to say, it's not just TOG)

 

I wonder if they could sell a license separately? Normally, you need a key code to put it on your computer. Can they embed it so that it only works on one computer (waiving add'l. licenses in the same household) and then once you resell the disc, the new user wouldn't be able to open it without calling TOG and purchasing a license (whatever that costs - $25, 30?) I'm not asking you Pongo, I'm just musing. Out loud.

[Guest]

At the moment they are thinking that TOG DE will not be re-sellable. Most digital products are not re-sellable. *If* I stay with TOG...I don't care about the re-sale policy. My reasons for homeschooling have nothing to do with money...and I know that God provides for me and my family. I don't think you can put a price on what a curriculum like Tapestry of Grace can do for our children...it is priceless;)...jmo.

[chiguirre]

Generally, digitally published stuff isn't resaleable and that's part of what makes it so attractive to the publishers. I don't use TOG, but FIAR moved to the digital model for FIAR Vol. 4. The paper copy that I was lucky enough to purchase before it went OOP was $60. Buying the digital units for the 15 books in Vol. 4 would cost $150, and they're not resaleable. That certainly helped FIAR's bottom line, I'm sure! OTOH, if they don't find a way to make money, hs curriculum providers will go out of business.

[Mama Lynx]

At the moment they are thinking that TOG DE will not be re-sellable. Most digital products are not re-sellable. *If* I stay with TOG...I don't care about the re-sale policy. My reasons for homeschooling have nothing to do with money...and I know that God provides for me and my family. I don't think you can put a price on what a curriculum like Tapestry of Grace can do for our children...it is priceless;)...jmo.

 

Although I'm on a tight budget, right now I'm planning on sticking with TOG despite the resale policy.

 

However ... money issues are a very real concern, as they are for a lot of people. It's silly to say that someone should pay the money regardless of their financial situation and goals, just because you don't think a price can be put on TOG. Of course you can put a price on it. TOG is fantastic - but it's just a tool, one means to an end. And each of us has to do what is right, educationally *and* financialy, for our families.

[Guest]

Although I'm on a tight budget, right now I'm planning on sticking with TOG despite the resale policy.

 

However ... money issues are a very real concern, as they are for a lot of people. It's silly to say that someone should pay the money regardless of their financial situation and goals, just because you don't think a price can be put on TOG. Of course you can put a price on it. TOG is fantastic - but it's just a tool, one means to an end. And each of us has to do what is right, educationally *and* financialy, for our families.

 

 

I was just posting my opinion regarding my family. I was not saying that every family would feel this way. I think it is obvious that since I am using Tapestry of Grace I am a Christian. I trust that if God wants me to use this curriculum he will provide me the financially means for it. I don't care what I have to pay to give my children a good education because I have struggled enough with the public school systems for years regarding our two autistic children. Things are tight here as well...but God provides for our needs.

 

I didn't realize my opinion would be blasted on these boards....

[Blessedfamily]

Is the redesign going to be significanlty cheaper than the print version?(It should be) If so, it would be worth it. You might come close to where you would have ended up if you had paid for the print version and resold.

[Mama Lynx]

I was just posting my opinion regarding my family. I was not saying that every family would feel this way. I think it is obvious that since I am using Tapestry of Grace I am a Christian. I trust that if God wants me to use this curriculum he will provide me the financially means for it. I don't care what I have to pay to give my children a good education because I have struggled enough with the public school systems for years regarding our two autistic children. Things are tight here as well...but God provides for our needs.

 

I didn't realize my opinion would be blasted on these boards....

 

I didn't blast you. I just thought you might not be aware of how your post sounded ... to me, at any rate. I understand that you were posting about your opinion for your family; but it makes it clearer when you put it in terms of "*I* can't put a price on what this curriculum can do for *my* family." When you make statements like that saying "you," instead, it sounds like you're talking about others. That's all. Certainly I don't have any ill-will toward you. I'm glad that you are free from worries about how to pay for curriculum.

 

As for being obvious ... there are some people who use TOG who are not Christian. Not many, but some.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Mama Lynx

[Pongo]

I wonder if they could sell a license separately? Normally, you need a key code to put it on your computer. Can they embed it so that it only works on one computer (waiving add'l. licenses in the same household) and then once you resell the disc, the new user wouldn't be able to open it without calling TOG and purchasing a license (whatever that costs - $25, 30?) I'm not asking you Pongo, I'm just musing. Out loud.

 

Wow, I did not know this.Your idea sounds like a really good one. I went and checked it out (TOG newsletter) and I am also a litttle taken aback by the price, plus I am sure they will charge for updates (they do now).

 

This really stinks, I need to really think about this and other options out there.

[Jami]

I was just posting my opinion regarding my family. I was not saying that every family would feel this way. I think it is obvious that since I am using Tapestry of Grace I am a Christian. I trust that if God wants me to use this curriculum he will provide me the financially means for it. I don't care what I have to pay to give my children a good education because I have struggled enough with the public school systems for years regarding our two autistic children. Things are tight here as well...but God provides for our needs.

 

I didn't realize my opinion would be blasted on these boards....

 

Wow, Lynx's response didn't look like a blast to me at all. I appreciate that you feel this is the right curriculum for your family, Summer, but if there are those for whom the cost would hurt their finances in an irresponsible way, surely you wouldn't recommend they spend money unwisely. While God does indeed provide for our needs, I'm not sure a particular curriculum falls into a clothing and food type category. And we're to be good stewards with our resources, for some families not choosing TOG despite it's wonderful benefits is good stewardship, not a lack of faith. :001_smile: But I really, really don't think Lynx was personally attacking your choice to use TOG for your family.

[Pongo]

The re-design DE looks like it will be, $150 until Jan.15 then it will go to $170. Adding in the cost of printing, looks like it's estimated at $100. Its about the same as now without the option to re-coup is need be.

This really changes things for me. I do love the curriculum but, I also think there are a few pretty comparable, and having used Y1-3, I know how to beef up those that I would need to , for a lesser cost. Ack.......I don't know, should I stay or should I go??????

[Quiver0f10]

I also think there are a few pretty comparable

 

Would you please share which ones are comparable? I would like to check out all the options. Thanks!

[Blessedfamily]

One more consideration. If you chose another program would it work with all your dc at once like Tapestry?

 

I haven't been following the other thread, so I didn't realize it was a download and not a cd. Downloads disappear when computers crash(which happens all the time around here) or get buggy. I need something in my hand like Cadam says.

[Guest]

Wow, Lynx's response didn't look like a blast to me at all. I appreciate that you feel this is the right curriculum for your family, Summer, but if there are those for whom the cost would hurt their finances in an irresponsible way, surely you wouldn't recommend they spend money unwisely. While God does indeed provide for our needs, I'm not sure a particular curriculum falls into a clothing and food type category. And we're to be good stewards with our resources, for some families not choosing TOG despite it's wonderful benefits is good stewardship, not a lack of faith. :001_smile: But I really, really don't think Lynx was personally attacking your choice to use TOG for your family.

 

You are right...I wouldn't recommend anyone buy TOG if it would hurt them financially. In my first post I said if , "*I* stay with Tapestry". People ask questions on here knowing they are going to get other peoples opinions. I was in no way applying my opinion to everyone. I was just stating my opinion regarding my family....I don't even know if I am going to continue using Tapestry. Sorry my posts have been so offensive...

[Pongo]

I didn't even think about the computer crashing.........:001_huh:

[elegantlion]

I don't use TOG, but my concerns would be with the digital are they going to have a return policy. What if you spend the money and decide the product is not for you?

 

I printed off the one week sample and knew it was not for me, but what about people who aren't sure?

 

I do believe as we move into the digital age we will see more providers move to this format, it makes business sense, but I'm still on the fence about this move in technology.

[melissel]

One more consideration. If you chose another program would it work with all your dc at once like Tapestry?

 

I haven't been following the other thread, so I didn't realize it was a download and not a cd. Downloads disappear when computers crash(which happens all the time around here) or get buggy. I need something in my hand like Cadam says.

 

Sorry, totally lurking because I've been contemplating TOG for awhile now, but couldn't you just burn a copy to a disk or CD for backup?

[Blessedfamily]

Sorry, totally lurking because I've been contemplating TOG for awhile now, but couldn't you just burn a copy to a disk or CD for backup?

 

I *think* that may be against their copyright policy. :confused: Not sure, but saving to another format usually is, although people do it all the time. I could be wrong.......

Edited November 17, 2008 by Blessedfamily

[TraceyS/FL]

I *think* that may be against their copyright policy. :confused: Not sure, but saving to another format usually is, although people do it all the time.

 

Legally you have a right to make a back-up of your "stuff" (movies, music cds, software) for yourself. That is very much valid NOW.

 

Anything i buy - if it's a download i had better be able to burn a copy to keep it safe, that wouldn't sit well with me at all.

 

Is this going to be a program vs a package of PDFs? Is it going to run on a Mac?

[Emmy]

Everything on your computer should be backed up. TOG cannot (and I believe would not) tell you otherwise. The only risk of having it in digi format is if the user doesn't back up.

 

I am bummed about the digi format of TOG. I wonder if it will drive up the resale prices on the print versions though - LOL!

[melissel]

Legally you have a right to make a back-up of your "stuff" (movies, music cds, software) for yourself. That is very much valid NOW.

 

Yes, this. Even if TOG says you can't, legally, you can. If they sell the package in a format that makes it impossible for you to make yourself a backup copy, well...I agree with Tracey. That would not sit well with me at all, and I would consider that company very suspect. Not that I'm saying that TOG is or is not doing this, of course. I don't know for sure. But if we're talking about a PDF document, you definitely can make yourself a backup copy. Of course, it's up to you to actually do so BEFORE your computer crashes and you lose it, in spite of what the company tells you about backing up the program right away (ask me how I know :glare:).

[Blessedfamily]

As for the return policy, I was very much suprised that another electronic curriculum I was interested in allows returns. You have to sign a statement that you won't use it anymore. I don't know if TOG would do that. I kinda doubt it. Seems risky.

[Blessedfamily]

Yes, this. Even if TOG says you can't, legally, you can. If they sell the package in a format that makes it impossible for you to make yourself a backup copy, well...I agree with Tracey. That would not sit well with me at all, and I would consider that company very suspect. Not that I'm saying that TOG is or is not doing this, of course. I don't know for sure. But if we're talking about a PDF document, you definitely can make yourself a backup copy. Of course, it's up to you to actually do so BEFORE your computer crashes and you lose it, in spite of what the company tells you about backing up the program right away (ask me how I know :glare:).

 

Thanks. Although we've heard a ton on the board lately about companies asking you not to do what you have a right to do. I hope they're reasonable. Still, I don't know if I would use it because the samples on their site were so confusing to me. It looked like a strong program overall, though.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Blessedfamily

[siloam]

One more consideration. If you chose another program would it work with all your dc at once like Tapestry?

 

I haven't been following the other thread, so I didn't realize it was a download and not a cd. Downloads disappear when computers crash(which happens all the time around here) or get buggy. I need something in my hand like Cadam says.

 

BiblioPlan does, it is very similar, just doesn't have the depth yet (as in logic level discussion, teacher notes).

 

Heather

 

[Karenciavo]

Is this going to be a program vs a package of PDFs? Is it going to run on a Mac?

 

The samples work on my Mac, every CD they've sold has worked on my Mac. I wouldn't worry about that.

[Another Lynn]

The re-design DE looks like it will be, $150 until Jan.15 then it will go to $170. Adding in the cost of printing, looks like it's estimated at $100. Its about the same as now without the option to re-coup is need be.

This really changes things for me. I do love the curriculum but, I also think there are a few pretty comparable, and having used Y1-3, I know how to beef up those that I would need to , for a lesser cost. Ack.......I don't know, should I stay or should I go??????

 

I haven't used TOG yet, but probably will next year. If you already own Y1-3 and liked them, but you don't want to go the DE route, ..... have you thought about buying Y4 classic? If you feel like you have enough experience with the curricula to beef it up, then classic should be easy to "beef up." (maybe?) Then you would still have a paper version in your hand and still have something you could resell (though it's hard to say what the market for it would be.... )

 

Just a thought!

[Pongo]

Okay here is my humble take on it. When "I" use TOG I like the option of all the "extras". But, by no means do I use it ALL or ALL the time.

 

For us, Pop Quiz, great in theory but not reality. I have a wonderful dh but he has no desire to do any more than he does.:D

 

Map Aids, great resource. I don't use it regularly, maybe I would if they were older. I have a globe and the kids look at, we pull out an atlas to do maps or make salt dough ones. This could be added to ANY history study.

 

Evaluations, love these. I really love having set questions all laid out for me. Could I do it myself , sure, do I want to , no.:glare: Plus here for us.

 

Teacher Notes, love them. But honestly, I could buy World Book on CD Rom and have them. Yes, it's definitely convenient though.

 

Bible- Other than Year 1, you wont find much other than some interweaving church history.

 

Booklist, you will find many lists have the same books, I think the closest I can come to for TOG is Veritas Press & SL those two pretty much cover ALL the books in TOG booklist.

 

Hands-On, buying a hands on book (Classical Kids, Knights and Damsels) History pockets and Scholastic has a bunch of great ones as well as a quick google search could provide.

 

Writing Aids, it's okay. I remember using the use Great Source books they had us use before the re-designed. It's basically that with ALL levels in one place. I use IEW and so that was not an issue for me.

 

So, as I look at what I already add, and don't use from TOG I have to make a decision if it's worth the DE version. I am having a tough time, honestly I am.

 

What could I use, SL with my own Bible curriculum ( I do anyways)with World Book CD. I would need to "flesh out" a better discussion, but after using TOG for so long, I don't think it will be that hard. Little tweaking on Geography.

 

Truthquest could be used, she has some really wonderful discussion questions, I would have to again get the World Book CD ( for me), and add in a Geography component but, once again printing out a map of the History area we are studying and having the kiddos label some of the places that come up in their readings should be pretty easy to do.

 

Beautiful Feet...this looks almost too simple. But, I really think that's the beauty of it. I have to admit I am drooling over their Geography program.

 

 

I am pouring over a few more.....any ideas????

[Another Lynn]

 

What could I use, SL with my own Bible curriculum ( I do anyways)with World Book CD. I would need to "flesh out" a better discussion, but after using TOG for so long, I don't think it will be that hard. Little tweaking on Geography.

 

 

 

This is why I think I need to use TOG - because I don't know how to flesh out a good discussion on my own. If you feel comfortable doing this, then give it a try. I was leaning towards Truthquest before I leaned towards TOG. It has a Biblical worldview and great readings lists. My other concern, for my personally, was always second guessing if I'm planning too much or too little reading for my oldest. I may still fight that nagging doubt with TOG, but I'm guessing it will hold my hand a little bit as I plan our weeks. Anyway, why not start your Yr4 with Truthquest (or whatever) - you can always backtrack and get TOG if you don't like how it goes. I think you're especially sitting pretty since you already have the other years in print version. You are definitely in the driver's seat!

[Pongo]

Anyway, why not start your Yr4 with Truthquest (or whatever) - you can always backtrack and get TOG if you don't like how it goes. I think you're especially sitting pretty since you already have the other years in print version. You are definitely in the driver's seat!

 

Now that's a neat idea. Really because I am only doing Year 1 (Units1-3) this year. I like do 3 semesters a year of history and one of science. So looking at it that way, that means I have 3 years before I even NEED year 4. Now that's a very appealing way of looking at things!

[Tree House Academy]

I do not use TOG, but I definitely understand your point. Having once owned Calvert, who wanted me to destroy the teacher's guide and buy from them again even for ANOTHER OF MY OWN KIDS made me so mad I could pop. I ended up selling it after 8 weeks of lessons. Moral dilemma...but I overcame that one because I felt like they were ripping me (and so many others) off.

[Guest]

I haven't been following the other thread, so I didn't realize it was a download and not a cd. Downloads disappear when computers crash(which happens all the time around here) or get buggy. I need something in my hand like Cadam says.

 

From reading the TOG forum, I believe it IS a CD-Rom. Someone had asked if everything could be put on 1 cd (MapAids, Evaluations, etc.) and Marcia replied that everything could not fit on 1 cd. So, I don't think you guys need to worry about that aspect...

 

Legally you have a right to make a back-up of your "stuff" (movies, music cds, software) for yourself. That is very much valid NOW.

 

Anything i buy - if it's a download i had better be able to burn a copy to keep it safe, that wouldn't sit well with me at all.

 

Is this going to be a program vs a package of PDFs? Is it going to run on a Mac?

 

Initially, it's going to be PDF's. If you go to their sample, it's just pdf's. That's how it's going to be, at least at first.

 

Anyone with technical or program questions may want to visit their forum. There's a lot of helpful information being discussed. HERE is a link there.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I was under the impression that initially some units of TOG may be available as downloads simply to allow those waiting to use them immediate access. (IE those waiting for the rest of Y3) I think that they intend to deliver the program as a CD-ROM ultimately.

 

I don't think the idea of purchasing a new license for a disc you get from someone else will work. Making a physical CD-ROM is very cheap. The content and support are what is expensive. Therefore I doubt that they would sell a license inexpensively.

 

I don't like the no-resale policy many companies are adopting but...who knows, in TOGs case it may relate to the permissions they have for including other companies' work ie World Book.

[Sarah CB]

Okay here is my humble take on it. When "I" use TOG I like the option of all the "extras". But, by no means do I use it ALL or ALL the time.

 

 

 

Teacher Notes, love them. But honestly, I could buy World Book on CD Rom and have them. Yes, it's definitely convenient though.

 

...

 

Truthquest could be used, she has some really wonderful discussion questions, I would have to again get the World Book CD ( for me), and add in a Geography component but, once again printing out a map of the History area we are studying and having the kiddos label some of the places that come up in their readings should be pretty easy to do.

 

 

I am pouring over a few more.....any ideas????

 

I really have to disagree here. When I look at the depth of analysis in the discussion questions for dialectic but, even *more so* for rhetoric, well, there really isn't anything comparable. Sure, Truthquest throws the odd discussion out there, but not for every week - not even close. The TG is much more than world book exerpts for me, it's the connections made during that discussion period, the opportunity to go deeper that exists there. It would take me an *incredibly* long time to come up with anything even close to what TOG offers in terms of dialectic and rhetoric thinking. We're only in the dialectic stage right now, but I'm in awe with the material we'll be discussing and working through once we get to the rhetoric stage. As far as I can see that isn't duplicated anywhere else. The one place that may get close is VP Omnibus.

 

I'm Canadian and have made the decision not to use all of TOG. For my purposes, I use Year 1, unitss 1 and 2 of year 2, and then Year 4. I'm in the in-between time right now and have been cobbling together my own history program by using bits and pieces of Mystery of History, Truthquest, Biblioplan, and Diana Warings stuff. I am really looking forward to September when we can start TOG year 4 because nothing truly does compare. And even though I've spent countless hours trying to correlate books and pages to the timeline I want to follow, plus trying to schedule in thought provoking assignments and historical fiction I am still not even close to having a coherent and well-planned set of discussion questions (and answers!) for each week.

 

As to price, I'm disappointed that the digital version won't be significantly cheaper but I know how much time it would take me to put together something even remotely comparable and I just don't have it. Plus, we're moving closer to the rhetoric stage and I really want us both to benefit from the depth of analysis that TOG requires of that stage.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[Karenciavo]

I know this is a totally different medimum, but when the move to Redesign happened, TOG's famous 50% off coupon was only available if you either 1) turned in your old copy of Classic, or 2) turned in enough pages for them to ?? deface ?? in some way as to make it evident that your Classic was not supposed to be for resale (those pages were then returned to you), and then 3) signed a document stating that you would not SELL or even GIVE AWAY your Classic copy to anyone else.

 

Obviously, there were some people violated their signed agreement, took the discount, and sold their Classic copies anyway . . . but that's between them and their conscience. I could not, would not agree to those terms and in fact was so disturbed by the idea that I could not even donate my copy of Classic to a needy family that I called Lampstand and talked to Scott Somerville personally. I won't relay that conversation here, but at the end of it, I was done with the Redesign.

 

Similarly, I wonder how they will police the DE being resold. Someone had the excellent point of getting your DE printed, then reselling that?? Wouldn't that violate copyright too, though? I am not tech savvy in the least, but I would assume there is some sort of code you would have to have to be able to "unlock" areas of your software, and without being the original purchaser, you wouldn't have that code?

 

If you purchased directly from TOG you only needed to sign the agreement, if you bought used then you needed to turn in pages to show you actually had the complete curriculum. I'm sorry people didn't honor their agreements, that's pretty sad, I had no idea that was going on.

 

Yeah, you can't print the product and then resell, that would violate copyright.

[Pongo]

I really have to disagree here. When I look at the depth of analysis in the discussion questions for dialectic but, even *more so* for rhetoric, well, there really isn't anything comparable. Sure, Truthquest throws the odd discussion out there, but not for every week - not even close. The TG is much more than world book exerpts for me, it's the connections made during that discussion period, the opportunity to go deeper that exists there. It would take me an *incredibly* long time to come up with anything even close to what TOG offers in terms of dialectic and rhetoric thinking. We're only in the dialectic stage right now, but I'm in awe with the material we'll be discussing and working through once we get to the rhetoric stage. As far as I can see that isn't duplicated anywhere else. The one place that may get close is VP Omnibus.

 

I'm Canadian and have made the decision not to use all of TOG. For my purposes, I use Year 1, unitss 1 and 2 of year 2, and then Year 4. I'm in the in-between time right now and have been cobbling together my own history program by using bits and pieces of Mystery of History, Truthquest, Biblioplan, and Diana Warings stuff. I am really looking forward to September when we can start TOG year 4 because nothing truly does compare. And even though I've spent countless hours trying to correlate books and pages to the timeline I want to follow, plus trying to schedule in thought provoking assignments and historical fiction I am still not even close to having a coherent and well-planned set of discussion questions (and answers!) for each week.

 

As to price, I'm disappointed that the digital version won't be significantly cheaper but I know how much time it would take me to put together something even remotely comparable and I just don't have it. Plus, we're moving closer to the rhetoric stage and I really want us both to benefit from the depth of analysis that TOG requires of that stage.

 

I will agree, that if I needed or wanted it ALL there, yes it certainly has most facets of what I feel is a rigorous history study with applied questions, critical thinking and teacher preparation to run these discussions.

 

Personally, since reading, Dialectic and Rhetoric: The Warp and Woof of Argumentation Analysis I do think the discussions can be recreated without the actual TOG curricula. I think the HS level of Trisims also offers this "type" of analysis as well as the Omnibus (as you mentioned). I was looking at TG with eyes of being able to add "in-depth" dialectic and rhetoric level skills. On surface level, I will also agree it is not close to the discussions TOG will lead you into.

 

As far as having discussion in an of themselves, I can still have this level of discussions that is offered in TOG. I think the key is having the answers (as you also mentioned). That's where I thought I would fall short but in reading the above mentioned book, it really is all a matter of interpretation, and to help encourage a problem solving ability. Revealing, through the meaning of a coherent discourse is what I am seeking to impart on our dialectic discussions.

 

I am still at a crossroad on if I want to ACTUALLY do this much work putting together my own thing, beef up something that is out there, or stay with TOG and go with the changes. :)

[Sarah CB]

If I were able to spend enough time to get very comfortable and familiar with each week's topic - enough so that I could lead an in-depth discussion about it without having a set of organized, well thought out notes, then I wouldn't worry about doing TOG.

 

However, there are many, many topics covered in TOG that I'm just learning about for the first time or that I'm learning about in greater depth through TOG than before. I wouldn't have a problem leading an analytical discussion about the fall of communism, but yikes would I ever be up a creek without a paddle if we were studying the US civil war. That's where TOG comes in. I can't do enough research of each and every area of study in order to make the connections TOG makes and lead the kinds of discussions TOG already has laid out. No problem on areas I'm already familiar with; big problem for areas I've never really delved into before.

 

And sure, I think I could use certain strategies to lead Socractic style discussions even about topics I know very little about, but it wouldn't be the same as having that in-depth knowledge of the topic and knowing how to make those connections to past and future events/people/ideas. It would be kind of like the discussions I have with the kids about lit that I haven't read - our discussions are much more fruitful and deep when I've read the book and have had time to think about it before leading a Socratic discussion on the book. TOG gives me that background preparation without the hours and hours and hours it would take me to come up with it on my own. So, for me, the discussion questions alone make TOG worth it.

[Pongo]

So, for me, the discussion questions alone make TOG worth it.

 

I think having a program with this much meat in more areas than just analytical discussion is , without a doubt "worth it". I would use the same resources that Marcia used to impart such knowledge, and because of TOG I was able to read much of the rhetoric level literature, which I believe enabled me to get to the point of comfort with discussions.

 

Like you, if I had to "off the cuff" have a discussion about Canadian History, well lets just say , I wouldn't have much to say. But with preparation I could, it's much easier and confidence building to have it right there, so there is no disagreement there:001_smile:

 

I can say because I have done years 1-3 (we decided to skip 4 because the kiddos were young), now doing Year 1 is a BREEZE, I did read all the Rhetoric level books in the classic, some of those have changed for the re-designed which makes it kind of neat to have to read. I don't depend on the discussion outline nearly as much as I did the first time around.

 

I don't want to do something else, I really want TOG in paper like it was, and I guess I am throwing a :svengo: tantrum because, I for one want it like it was. I just got into a groove on what to print, where everything is, I can find stuff like lightning compared to just a couple of months ago:D. I think my husband would not be very happy about the increased computer time, we haven't much talked about that. Because I do read ALL of it, and it doesn't look so bad when I am on the couch reading, but to go to my PC in another room...not so good.

 

I am just really praying, that the DE is an option to paper and not the final product. Thanks for your perspective on it.

[Michelle My Bell]

There was some question about how TOG will be packaged. You don't have to worry about 2 things.

 

#1 It will NOT be Internet based

#2 It WILL be on a disk, so you can't loose it should your computer crash.

 

I notice people are all in a tizy and worried about this whole TOG thing, which I was a little shocked too. BUT TOG isn't changing all that much really. Your just getting your book on a disk instead of in paper format. If you really like paper format, IT WON'T Be that big of a deal to have it printed. It will just cost the same as if you bought it printed.

 

I really don't see what all the fuss is about. Really I don't???:confused:

 

Michelle

[dawn of ns]

I *think* that may be against their copyright policy. :confused: Not sure, but saving to another format usually is, although people do it all the time. I could be wrong.......

 

Regardless of their policy it's legal and falls under fair use. I'd question the ethics of a company that wouldn't allow you to backup a digital product you've bought.

[Karenciavo]

Regardless of their policy it's legal and falls under fair use. I'd question the ethics of a company that wouldn't allow you to backup a digital product you've bought.

 

It's not against their policy. I've been using about 1/2 of their program digitally for three years and they have never said you couldn't back up your files, they've only asked that you not share them with anyone.

[Blessedfamily]

I think TOG is very serious about the proposed licensing policy and would have no problem having users sign some sort of no-resale agreement.

 

I know this is a totally different medimum, but when the move to Redesign happened, TOG's famous 50% off coupon was only available if you either 1) turned in your old copy of Classic, or 2) turned in enough pages for them to ?? deface ?? in some way as to make it evident that your Classic was not supposed to be for resale (those pages were then returned to you), and then 3) signed a document stating that you would not SELL or even GIVE AWAY your Classic copy to anyone else.

 

Obviously, there were some people violated their signed agreement, took the discount, and sold their Classic copies anyway . . . but that's between them and their conscience. I could not, would not agree to those terms and in fact was so disturbed by the idea that I could not even donate my copy of Classic to a needy family that I called Lampstand and talked to Scott Somerville personally. I won't relay that conversation here, but at the end of it, I was done with the Redesign.

 

Similarly, I wonder how they will police the DE being resold. Someone had the excellent point of getting your DE printed, then reselling that?? Wouldn't that violate copyright too, though? I am not tech savvy in the least, but I would assume there is some sort of code you would have to have to be able to "unlock" areas of your software, and without being the original purchaser, you wouldn't have that code?

 

Thanks for the information, really.:001_smile: But I was referring to the poster who questioned whether you could *return* a digital product (to TOG) if you didn't like it.

 

I was supprised to find one company that allows retuns on downloaded curriculum.

 

It seems from subsequent posts that TOG will be a on a disk. I don't know how that would affect returns.

[Pongo]

Looks like no matter what happens with Year 4(DE or Print) those of us that have already ordered year 3 BEFORE the announcement will get the DE for Year 3 unit 3 & 4 FREE, then when they place the print run (Dana and Marcia feel confident this will happen) they will send units 3 & 4 to us!:thumbup1:

 

It is my understanding, once orders for redesigned year 4 start, we will have the option of getting the DE or waiting for 450 orders to get it in print. They seem very hopeful they will get the orders.