Geometry in 8th grade?

[umsami]

So my daughter is back in public school and is in sixth grade.  She told me she was doing seventh grade math, which sounds fine as math has always been easy for her.  Turns out, they put her in a 7th grade honors pre-algebra class (found out today) and are hoping that she takes Algebra 1 in 7th, and Geometry in 8th grade.  This seems unnecessary to me.  Back in the olden days when I was in school, most college-prep programs had one take Algebra 1 in 8th grade, which would allow you to complete Calculus AB as a senior in high school.    When I got to college, they wanted us to take calculus there anyways--even if we had taken it previously (and passed IB/AP tests).  (This was true for all AP/IB classes, actually.)

 

Have things changed?  Do kids now need to take geometry in 8th to be competitive?

 

Quite frankly, I'd rather they move her down so she can get a stronger foundational level.   She is hating this new class, especially because the teacher skips things and says "Well, you learned that in sixth grade..." which she obviously did not as she's a sixth grader now.   She said math used to be her favorite subject and she hates it now.  I don't want that to be the case.

 

WWYD?

Edited September 19, 2018 by umsami

[Arcadia]

It was the faster math track when my DS13 was in kindergarten in 2009 and our district still offers algebra 1 in 7th and geometry in 8th. The “slower” kids took algebra 1 in 8th and geometry in 9th. Kids who fail algebra 1 or came from a district who didn’t offer algebra 1 in middle school does algebra 1 in 9th. 

However they track the kids based on the child’s performance in math in 6th grade. So the fast track kids skip 7th grade math. My district does not have an official course called prealgebra in middle school. The slower track kids would do 7th grade math before doing algebra 1 in 8th. It is not a math pull out program, the kids are with the same classmates for all subjects. 

Is she by herself for math with the 7th graders, kind of like a pull out program? Then I might let her pick to stay in 6th grade math with her 6th grade classmates if that’s what she prefers. 

[mamaraby]

Our district uses an “integrated math”approach and based upon my readng of the course catalog for the high school, it looks like the honors level students take Integrated Math 1 in 8th grade which would push some geometry topics down to 8th.

[Kassia]

All of my kids did geometry in 8th grade (three were in ps).  But there's no reason to push that and I wouldn't do it if it was making my child unhappy.  I'd much rather go slower and make sure my child had confidence and a strong foundation.

ETA:  my oldest ds graduated from high school in 2009 and this wasn't a new thing then so it's been done for a long time.  

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Kassia

[katilac]

I would let her move down with no hesitation.

[8filltheheart]

Did they give her a placement test do determine which class to put her in? How much of her dislike is coming from being in a new learning environment with a new teacher/new curriculum vs not knowing the math?

If you think the issue is the math being beyond her level, I would definitely move her down. If you think it is just adjusting to the class and that she has the math skills required, I would leave her in the class. 

Is it necessary to do geo in 8th? Definitely not. But it a student is capable of doing the math, will they regret later on that they didn't? That is a harder question to answer at 12. I have had multiple kids doing geo before 9th. They would have been bored to tears otherwise. It is a judgment call. I would talk to her and have her involved in the decision so that she has some ownership over the final choice.

[Sneezyone]

20 hours ago, umsami said:

So my daughter is back in public school and is in sixth grade.  She told me she was doing seventh grade math, which sounds fine as math has always been easy for her.  Turns out, they put her in a 7th grade honors pre-algebra class (found out today) and are hoping that she takes Algebra 1 in 7th, and Geometry in 8th grade.  This seems unnecessary to me.  Back in the olden days when I was in school, most college-prep programs had one take Algebra 1 in 8th grade, which would allow you to complete Calculus AB as a senior in high school.    When I got to college, they wanted us to take calculus there anyways--even if we had taken it previously (and passed IB/AP tests).  (This was true for all AP/IB classes, actually.)

 

Have things changed?  Do kids now need to take geometry in 8th to be competitive?

 

Quite frankly, I'd rather they move her down so she can get a stronger foundational level.   She is hating this new class, especially because the teacher skips things and says "Well, you learned that in sixth grade..." which she obviously did not as she's a sixth grader now.   She said math used to be her favorite subject and she hates it now.  I don't want that to be the case.

 

WWYD?

 

This is the new normal for advanced math kids, yes, and poor DD got caught up in a school with a very restrictive tracking system but it ended up being for the best, I think. The *five* kids they pushed up to 7th grade Algebra covered less ground and had less understanding of the material than DD did. She’s sailing through this year and will end up with plenty of time for Geometry before the next school year starts. I think it’s more important to maintain her confidence and understanding than any local norm.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Sneezyone

[SanDiegoMom]

I would let her move down if she wants to move down. If she ends up needing to accelerate later, she can compact in different ways.  My daughter tested (barely) into Pre-A in sixth but really struggled and shouldn't have moved on to Algebra in 7th, but she did. Struggled there and we chose to have her repeat Algebra in 8th.   So in retrospect we should not have put her into Pre-A when her scores were so borderline. 

If your daughter is acing the work but just not enjoying it, I would probably say to just stay in and hope for a better teacher next year. 

[umsami]

So her math teacher emailed me (I did not reach out to him) and said that he feels she's one of the smartest in the class and can do the work.  The problem is, she's 100% miserable.

The weird thing is its an arts magnet school.  So the school is telling me that this would free her up for more art classes in high school.  She would most definitely take four years of high school math regardless, so I'm not sure of the advantage there.

I still don't know what to do.  Her brothers were at a STEM charter school which is ranked one of the best high schools/middle schools in the city.  They did not even offer geometry in 8th.  For these science/math oriented kids, algebra 1 in 8th was seen as just fine....and they had a 100% pass rate on the state End-Of-Course exam (required for high school graduation in Florida). 

I really appreciate all of the feedback.  Thank you ❤️ 

Edited September 20, 2018 by umsami

[historically accurate]

6 hours ago, Danae said:

At the school my oldest attends the regular track is algebra in 8th, advanced is algebra in 7th, and accelerated is algebra in 6th. A sixth grader taking pre-algebra would not be with seventh graders, there are multiple sections of sixth grade pre-A. A sixth grader taking algebra will be in a combined 6/7th class. 

No wonder there is such a gap between "good" and "bad" districts. Our district's accelerated is 8th grade Algebra (usually 30-60 kids out of about 400), most take Algebra I in 9th. Furthest the accelerated kids can go is Calculus I. These kids are having to compete against kids who have the option of taking Algebra in 6th in college. 

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, umsami said:

The weird thing is its an arts magnet school.  So the school is telling me that this would free her up for more art classes in high school.  She would most definitely take four years of high school math regardless, so I'm not sure of the advantage there.

 

The school might be thinking that calculus in 11th grade satisfies both high school graduation requirements and state universities admissions requirements. For example, UC’s minimum requirement is only three years of math. So kids might finish calculus in 11th grade and not take any math in 12th, taking a high school elective or two dual enrollment courses in their prospective major instead. 

[Targhee]

Geometry in 8th is not unusual anymore.  I actually did Alg 1 in 9th (I moved states and was put into regular track math, excellerated at my school was Geom 9th, and remedial was PeA 9th) and was a science major in college and all was fine.  But, the new competitive track is geom in 8th. 

Im for putting her where she will have success but still challenge.  One of my kids finished Alg 1, 2, and geom in middle school (PreA was 5th and part of 6th).  One of them will finish Alg 1 in 8th.  Both are fine with me because they are what was best for each child. So, do what’s best for your child.

[Terabith]

At the Catholic school my kids attended, the top kids did algebra 1 in seventh and geometry in 8th.  The slower kids did algebra in 8th and geometry in 9th.  I was opposed at first, but my older one was in the top group, and she did fine.  I don't think the geometry was as rigorous as I would have liked it to be (not many proofs and what not), but that is also the schedule for the honors kids in public school, as well.  

I don't think it's necessary, and I wish there was more variety allowed.  I dislike that it's only the really dumb kids who take algebra in 9th grade now in public school.  I think a lot of kids just aren't developmentally ready before then.  

[Sneezyone]

10 minutes ago, Terabith said:

At the Catholic school my kids attended, the top kids did algebra 1 in seventh and geometry in 8th.  The slower kids did algebra in 8th and geometry in 9th.  I was opposed at first, but my older one was in the top group, and she did fine.  I don't think the geometry was as rigorous as I would have liked it to be (not many proofs and what not), but that is also the schedule for the honors kids in public school, as well.  

I don't think it's necessary, and I wish there was more variety allowed.  I dislike that it's only the really dumb kids who take algebra in 9th grade now in public school.  I think a lot of kids just aren't developmentally ready before then.  

 

At the school DD attended last year, this was my observation. They only got through half of the course content too because they had to move through it more slowly. I don't think that's the case everywhere tho. The big push in the district we're moving to is having kids do Algebra 1, Geometry, Foreign Language 1 and Earth Science (all HS level classes) in middle school so they can complete an associate's degree with dual enrollment by 12th grade. Applications to the Gov's STEM academy programs also require Algebra 1 (and they prefer Geometry) before 9th grade.

[katilac]

On 9/20/2018 at 7:50 AM, HeighHo said:

Yes, this is the norm in suburban districts that have enough students to fill a class at that level. 

The problem you have if you drop her out is you'll interrupt her science sequence and you'll change her intellectual peer group.  If she is going into music or something like that, no biggie. Just don't expect the next lower tier to have the same depth and amount of thinking opportunities.

She needs to go to see the teacher if she has gaps to fill that her text doesn't help her with and she can't figure out. 

The colleges now do not want Calc retaken unless the provider is poor quality or they have a more theory based option for the major.  Very common for top suburban dc to come in with all Calc finished, and ready for DiffEq, along with knowing a computer language. Those near a college have already finished DiffEq and may have some research experience. 

 

I don't think that there is a norm across the country, and I'm a little dubious that hordes of seniors are graduating ready for differential equations. Are some? Sure, but until I see data that shows otherwise, I'm guessing it's a pretty small minority. 

I definitely don't think that not taking geometry in 8th is likely to alter her entire intellectual peer group. High school students take a variety of subjects, it's not like Group A is taking all of the same classes, and then Group B is taking all of the same classes. Kids who take geometry in 9th-grade can take plenty of classes with kids who are in algebra 2. 

A performing arts career is not the only alternative to geometry in 8th-grade ?

Actually, I don't see why it would have to alter her science sequence; she will have algebra 1 before high school. Is there any science course that requires geometry as a pre-req? 

Certainly, she should evaluate thoroughly, particularly in light of the email from the teacher, but I feel strongly that students and parents should not make every educational decision based on vague fears about the future. It's important to work hard and realize that you may sacrifice certain things now in order to achieve goals later, but I personally think it's just as important to realize that her life right now is not a dress rehearsal for college and career. It is her actual life that should be lived authentically, and we don't live in a country where taking the wrong math in middle school derails your entire future. 

On 9/20/2018 at 1:07 PM, umsami said:

So her math teacher emailed me (I did not reach out to him) and said that he feels she's one of the smartest in the class and can do the work.  The problem is, she's 100% miserable.

The weird thing is its an arts magnet school.  So the school is telling me that this would free her up for more art classes in high school.  She would most definitely take four years of high school math regardless, so I'm not sure of the advantage there.

I still don't know what to do.  Her brothers were at a STEM charter school which is ranked one of the best high schools/middle schools in the city.  They did not even offer geometry in 8th.  For these science/math oriented kids, algebra 1 in 8th was seen as just fine....and they had a 100% pass rate on the state End-Of-Course exam (required for high school graduation in Florida). 

I really appreciate all of the feedback.  Thank you ❤️ 

1

 

I would definitely show dd that email. Then talk about what she really hates about the class. You said the teacher often makes assumptions about what they learned last year, as though they were all in the same class. Is that a big sticking point for dd? Would addressing it make her want to stay in the class? If so, it's definitely worth bringing up to the teacher. He sent that email on his own and probably wants her to stick around (and probably doesn't even realize what he is doing is a problem). Surely there's a way to address it. 

If she insists that she would still hate the class, I'd probably lean toward letting her move down. There's a lot to be said for moving through math more slowly. Even if she can handle the class, it's okay to not always do the very hardest thing you can manage for every single class. She can still get through calculus if she wants. Does the high school even offer anything beyond calculus? If they do, and she decides later that she really wants to go beyond calc in high school, she can do what plenty of other students do: double up on geometry and algebra 2, or take a summer class. 

I don't know what your personal definition of 'competitive' is, but I assure you that she can get into plenty of great colleges either way. If Harvard turns her down, it's not going to be solely based on this one math class.