Spelling problems in a super bright kid-nothing working

[Amy in KS]

What would you do?  

My 8th grade son has significant problems with spelling.  This is not new.  We've worked on it for many, many years.  He has no reading problems.  He reads difficult, long books without trouble (Lord of the Rings, Adventures of Huck Finn, everything by Orson Scott Card).  We've tried All about Spelling, Spell to Write and Read, Logic of English, always with the phonics based emphasis.  This last year we switched to Rod and Staff with an additional 15 minutes/day word drill on spelling city.  That seemed to work better than anything and I saw significant improvement.  

He was just placement tested for an English class at a local co-op and the evaluator had significant concerns about his spelling.  She said it looked like he never learned phonics.  This is not the case  The reality is, he can spout off all the spelling rules and all the sounds of all the phonograms.  He can decode just fine.  His trouble seems to be with encoding--and especially if it is a freewrite (not for spelling class).  

I had planned on doing Rod and Staff 8 this year with him (which has phonics, morpheme, and root work). 

Now I'm wondering if I need to do something else or if really need to get him evaluated.  He has no other problems except spelling.  He's highly intelligent, advanced in reading, can diagram super complicated sentences, and can write with a great deal of style.  He flew through Dolciani Algebra, and truthfully seems gifted in every other respect except spelling.  Every time I've considered dyslexia, he didn't seem to fit the description.  Am I missing something?  Are there other learning disabilities this sounds like?  

[historically accurate]

My non-speller has dysgraphia, but she has problems with writing as well. She has little to zero style (think the most boring professor you can think of who speaks in a monotone and only uses 5 word sentences - that's her writing style!). She is a very advanced reader - tested at post-grad level in reading as a 9th grader.

What worked for her: All About Spelling got her started. She made it to the 5th level of AAS, but was hovering around a 3rd grade spelling level when tested by neuropsych. We switched to Apples and Pears, and it helped enough to get her to where spell check can at least help. What didn't work: Spelling Workout, Spelling Power and Sequential Spelling. None of those three got her anywhere above spelling Cat - I don't think she made it off of the first page in Spelling Power in a semester. 

You say he can spout the spelling rules and sounds of the phonograms, but can he break down a word orally? If you say delicious, could he 1) tell you how many syllables and break it into syllables correctly, 2) tell you the phonograms for the syllables and 3) put it back together into a multi-syllabic word (not switching order, etc)? My child can not break words into syllables (we did AAS 1 over 9 months when she was a 5th grader if that tells you how delayed she was). She is getting better at step 2, and she has no problem putting it back together once I help her with step 1. Weirdly she actually tested really well in spelling in the one and only standardized test I made her take because she can recognize which spelling is correct, but she cannot come up with anything remotely close to the correct spelling. 

I am unfamiliar with Rod and Staff so I can't help you on whether it's a good choice. Honestly if it is what worked best, I'd probably continue with it if it were me. I'd probably look into testing though as well. 

[Tanaqui]

Have you considered stealth dyslexia? He sounds like my dyslexic kiddo - reads well, can't spell. Try giving him a list of random words, or even nonsense words - see what he makes of it. (I say she reads well, and that's true, but only if the words have some context to make sense.)

For the record, what's been working for her is Apples and Pears. She retains it, even if she takes a break. (We took a very long break year before last due to family circumstances. No loss.)

[zarabellesmom]

My oldest daughter is dysgraphic and had significant spelling problems. I feel like I tried everything too--Logic of English, All About Spelling, Apples and Pears, Rod and Staff, Sequential Spelling. Anyway, she struggled some with writing and copying when she was younger and I still wouldn't she say she is the best writer, but she does pretty well. Her handwriting is OK, not fabulous. It used to be a lot worse. Anyway, I had her tested in the third grade wondering if this was some sort of super sneaky stealth dyslexia. Nope. She reads at a quite advance level and every test that would possibly reveal dyslexia, revealed none. She's just dysgraphic. (I say "just" but it's been a pretty big handicap.) In any case, my youngest daughter IS dyslexic and I ended up purchasing Barton Reading and Spelling. Since I was buying it, I decided to run my older daughter through it as well. She finished it this summer--completing all 10 levels in 1.5 years, though we could have gone faster but I was tutoring my youngest as well. She spells pretty well now. It made an amazing difference. It's expensive though--but not so much if you buy each level used and then sell it when you are done using the money to buy the next level. It holds its resale value very well and I haven't had any trouble selling them when I've finished with them.

[Lori D.]

Totally agreeing with previous posters -- beckyjo's 3rd paragraph in her above post, and Tanaqui's suggestion of stealth dyslexia totally describe what was going on with our struggling speller DS#2. We used a variety of things with him; I'd say that the things that most helped him click (that might be overlap with your DS) include using Megawords -- syllabication and breaking words into smaller "bites" to understand vowel patterns for spelling -- and using visual mnemonics (Stevenson's Blue Spelling Manual ideas), along with with the use of Spell Check with typing, to help signal that there is a problem with a word so that the student slows down, thinks it through, and makes the correction.

I have also heard great things about Apples and Pears, and Barton, but no personal experience with them. BEST of luck in finding what helps your student the best! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Peaceseeker]

We have had great success with Sequential Spelling here.  It is not babyish and there is an older student/ adult remediation track where you could potentially do all 7 levels in 2 years.

It was designed for dyslexic learners and works by grouping words into lists by patterns or word families.  It worked wonders for my child who went through multiple spelling programs that never worked.  It only takes a few minutes per day and there is a computer/video option if you need the student to work on this subject by themselves.

[camino]

I have a twelve-year-old son like this, too. (And he loves the same novels!) He has a diagnosis of Dysgraphia -- it is so severe that he was diagnosed in second grade -- but later testers have used different language. One person called him Dyslexic, and wanted us to do a whole program starting from the beginning. The last person we worked with about a year ago, a very well-known and respected psychologist and psycho-educational evaluator in my area, calls it "Language-Based Learning Difference that manifests as" ... in my son's case, specific writing challenges. Basically this psychologist won't distinguish between Dyslexia and Dysgraphia because their origins are the same. What he says makes a lot of sense to me. My son had a lot of the same issues (problems crossing the midline, bilateral coordination) that dyslexic kids do but has always enjoyed reading. I find that Dyslexia is not a *useful* descriptor but I can believe -- I do believe -- that the early Montessori and then homeschool instruction he received helped him address work through potential decoding problems that he probably would have otherwise had.

As for how to remediate: we have had a lot of success this past year addressing his writing/composition challenges (my son is also an elegant writer and is writing a novel in Tolkien's style), though his handwriting will never be useful. The two things that have helped with spelling -- we tried a lot of the same ones you did, too -- are years of Spelling City and the keyboarding program TTRS. Or maybe something just clicked in his brain?? I doubt that because I'll still occasionally see him write "multiplicashen" but generally his spelling is now actually pretty strong. Not on the level of the rest of his performance but a huge improvement relative to his past.

We still have other writing challenges: lining up numbers properly in math, not being able to read his writing, or, more generally, his avoidance of writing in multi-step problems. These didn't cause problems in early grades but now that he is doing more advanced math, algebra this year, it is a constant issue. If you have any ideas for math besides graph paper, let me know!

 

 

[zarabellesmom]

2 hours ago, camino said:

I have a twelve-year-old son like this, too. (And he loves the same novels!) He has a diagnosis of Dysgraphia -- it is so severe that he was diagnosed in second grade -- but later testers have used different language. One person called him Dyslexic, and wanted us to do a whole program starting from the beginning. The last person we worked with about a year ago, a very well-known and respected psychologist and psycho-educational evaluator in my area, calls it "Language-Based Learning Difference that manifests as" ... in my son's case, specific writing challenges. Basically this psychologist won't distinguish between Dyslexia and Dysgraphia because their origins are the same. What he says makes a lot of sense to me. My son had a lot of the same issues (problems crossing the midline, bilateral coordination) that dyslexic kids do but has always enjoyed reading. I find that Dyslexia is not a *useful* descriptor but I can believe -- I do believe -- that the early Montessori and then homeschool instruction he received helped him address work through potential decoding problems that he probably would have otherwise had.

 

Both of my children attended a Montessori school through kindergarten. I do think that the way they teach reading helps immensely. It's interesting--to me at least--when experts talk about teaching children with dyslexia/dysgraphia to read and spell, Orton-Gillingham method is pretty much standard (though I think we are going to be seeing more interventions using structured word inquiry soon, but I digress). When you look at the way Montessori teaches reading and compare it to Orton-Gillingham approaches, there are a lot of similarities. I've often wondered whether my oldest, who reads well but is dysgraphic, would have been diagnosed dyslexic without Montessori. I don't think so really because the early signs were not there and her testing results don't show any weaknesses in phonemic awareness, etc. I DO think that my younger daughter, who IS dyslexic, would have fared much worse had she not had the Montessori reading foundation that she did. With my youngest, I knew something was up before reading really entered the picture but she did begin to learn reading at her Montessori school and actually left Kindergarten reading pretty well for that level. She just kind of stalled after that.

Anyway, I guess that was a bit off topic. Sorry OP.

Teresa

[Kate in Arabia]

I don't have much advice, but commiseration.  My middle boy is also very bright, good reader, would score in the 80s-90s in virtually all areas on standardized tests except spelling.. he took the Terra Nova every year (grades 1-11) and would have high scores in all areas except spelling, which was always in the teens or twenties.  Always.  We tried many programs, at the time I never considered a disability per se, although now I think he probably has some form of dysgraphia (his handwriting is also horrible).  However, he's going to be a high school senior this year, he took the SAT last spring, and he did well in the English section.  The results didn't break it down so finely so he could see where he lost points, but I feel that overall he does so well with reading and all other elements that if there were problems with spelling, they were balanced out.

Not much help for the day-to-day, but what it has developed in my ds is that he is aware (and not ashamed) of his issues with spelling, he has no shyness to ask about how something is spelled, even if he knows but wants to be sure, and when he focuses his handwriting is ok.  I'm debating about possible spelling programs just as a final year run-through; I don't want to say I've given up with him and spelling, but I think it's more he knows this is an area where he needs to focus as he writes (and he does write well, conceptually speaking) and have the patience to go back through what he writes (he blogs) to check for spelling.

[Farrar]

I agree with all of the above, but also... do you have any concerns about his writing? Like, he can't spell, especially when it really doesn't matter, like in a freewrite, but can he write? Do the words flow? Do the sentences make sense? Honestly, if he can write and read just fine and you've tried all that and he's in 8th grade... I'd make sure he knew how to type and focus more on cleaning up the spelling after the fact. Like, is it so bad that spellcheck doesn't fix it?

[PeterPan]

On July 24, 2018 at 5:16 PM, almloff said:

She said it looked like he never learned phonics.

Fwiw, that may not be a very accurate assessment. There actually are informal spelling inventories to help a tutor quickly determine where the student is at. Something like this https://mypearsontraining.com/assets/files/documents/TG_WTW_Assessment.pdf The person will look for patterns in the errors, etc. You can google it to find more. 

Just to add a twist to your thought process, I'll throw out that visual memory can be another factor. My dd has that typical ADHD, crunchy at everything, diagnosed with nothing, kind of profile. She struggled with spelling in spite of tons of SWR, etc. Now that's struggled as in crunchy but progressing. Not dyslexic level struggled, like totally off the charts, not able to break apart sounds, etc. Anyways, when we got her checked by a developmental optometrist around age 10, turned out she had convergence issues that had bogged down her visual memory, leaving her with the visual memory of a 2 yo! We did VT, ran back through 1-6 of AAS, and she was good to go. She's not gonna win contests, but she's survivable.

So I wouldn't take that co-op teacher's statement as a professional assessment unless she was trained in assessment and actually kicking you out concrete information on where the breakdowns are. When you say significant, you mean like spell check cannot even recognize what he was trying to spell? I do like the Barton suggestion btw. It's not the least expensive path, lol, but it's very solidly multi-sensory and thorough, hitting non-sense words as well. With my dd, who was crunchy not dyslexic, I used a multi-pronged approach, trying to get in an hour a day. So we used workbooks plus dictation plus software plus plus plus. For her dictation was REALLY POWERFUL. Seeing the words in context was helpful to her. Spelling Resource Plus has great spiraling dictation, though we used the sentences in SWR (the Wise Guide) and literature most of the time. I'm getting ready to start Spelfabet with my ds and maybe try some dictation from the Modern Speller that is old that you can find online for free. He is diagnosed dyslexic, among other things, but his dysgraphia makes him really crunchy to work with. We're probably also going to do work with stamps, keyboarding, etc. 

The Eides suggest that kinesthetic memory, ie. typing their spelling words, can also be effective. If he's not proficient at typing, that might be a super win win. He'd get the kinesthetic patterns AND the visual input AND the spell check reinforcement/support. If typing isn't going well, Dvorak, an alternate keyboard layout, is what finally worked for my dd.

[Kanin]

The Lindamood-Bell program Seeing Stars focuses on what they call "symbol imagery." Basically, the students learn to visualize letters as they spell. They do this by having a teacher show a word card for a few seconds, and then take it away. The students "air-write" what they saw while saying the letters aloud. Students also write on the table, on the wall, anywhere, really, to mix it up. The teacher pays attention and corrects any mistakes by drawing the student's attention to the mistake, and then showing the card, and then the student re-writes.

This video from the Gander publishing is somewhat obnoxious, but you can see the students "air-writing." 

 

Here's another video with the decoding workbooks. You will see that there are real and nonsense words on each page, and the teacher frequently stops a student, covers a word, and asks them to air-write it. It's very teacher-intensive, but you don't do very long sessions a day (maybe 15 minutes).

 

I'm also curious if your son can clap syllables, rhyme, break words into individual sounds. If he can, maybe his spelling issue is rooted in a symbol imagery problem. You could show him a word on an index card and see if he can air-write it.

[PeterPan]

Visualization is a pretty strong technique, especially for ADHD kids, alternative learners, etc., so long as they don't have a visual processing problem that makes visualizing hard, lol. So like for my dd, she just shied away from vision-heavy techniques. But just in general, yeah, recommended. You'll read about people doing things like showing the card, then having them close their eyes, visualize, and spell it aloud backward from what they visualized. Some people do really well with that.

[Amy in KS]

So if my kid says he absolutely can’t visualize a word—imagine it is written on a page or a board, what would you suspect?

 

[Kanin]

Hmmm, interesting! I'm far from an expert at this, but I'd say that it could possibly explain his difficulty with spelling - he tries to sound out the spelling each time, but that's really difficult. As far as I know, the term "symbol imagery" is a Lindamood-Bell term, but there's probably a similar term used more widely. Maybe PeterPan will know?

I think Lindamood-Bell would probably say to start by imaging ONE letter from a card - like hold up the card, keep it up for 3 seconds, then put it behind your back. Kid air-writes the letter while saying "b." Then, you do 2 letters. Mostly it'll be nonsense, like "ip." So you show the card for 3 seconds, put it behind your back, and kid air-writes while saying, "i, p, ip." Then you ask questions - what letter did you see first? What letter did you see last?

Then you move on to 3 letters. So you show the card that says "cat." Kid air-writes while saying, "c, a, t, cat." Then you ask questions, what's the middle letter? What's the last letter? First letter? To really stretch the visual imagery, you then say things like, take out the c and put in a h." Kid then air writes and says, "h, a, t, hat." THAT part's super challenging. I'd wait till he can reliably air-write 3 letter words before doing that. The Seeing Stars manual has really good scripts for the teacher, and also helpful illustrations ?

I find this so interesting. I'm sorry I can't help with what "official" tests are used to test symbol imagery. I've never run across a program that addresses it outside of Lindamood-Bell. Many OG programs have kids air-write sight words, but LMB has kids air-write EVERYTHING. Later on in the program, they even air-write 2 syllable words, and then manipulate them. Pretty neat.

[kbutton]

I second trying Sequential Spelling. If he types more than he writes, I would have him type the lists--the muscle memory thing is very powerful. 

My first kiddo did GREAT on phonics-based spelling instruction. 100's on all of his tests. The only problem is that when he actually wrote, he would spell the same word four different ways on the same page, lol! SS fixed that. He has a few words he's likely to misspell, but he's pretty solid now.

Second kiddo--similar pattern, but more problems and he's slower to incorporate better spelling day-to-day, but SS is upping his success at actually spelling things correctly that he writes from scratch.

Both kiddos have better typing skills due to using SS after learning their way around a keyboard.

[Momto6inIN]

On 7/29/2018 at 12:03 AM, Farrar said:

I agree with all of the above, but also... do you have any concerns about his writing? Like, he can't spell, especially when it really doesn't matter, like in a freewrite, but can he write? Do the words flow? Do the sentences make sense? Honestly, if he can write and read just fine and you've tried all that and he's in 8th grade... I'd make sure he knew how to type and focus more on cleaning up the spelling after the fact. Like, is it so bad that spellcheck doesn't fix it?

This is what I was going to say. My 2nd DS couldn't/can't spell worth a darn, but he could write and construct sentences and paragraphs just fine. Sometimes when he typed he would mis-spell the same word 3 times in a paragraph and spell it differently each time. ? I finally just threw up my hands with spelling and focused on spellcheck along with self-editing and having him ask someone else look over his work.

[Terabith]

On 7/29/2018 at 11:08 AM, PeterPan said:

Just to add a twist to your thought process, I'll throw out that visual memory can be another factor. My dd has that typical ADHD, crunchy at everything, diagnosed with nothing, kind of profile. She struggled with spelling in spite of tons of SWR, etc. Now that's struggled as in crunchy but progressing. Not dyslexic level struggled, like totally off the charts, not able to break apart sounds, etc. Anyways, when we got her checked by a developmental optometrist around age 10, turned out she had convergence issues that had bogged down her visual memory, leaving her with the visual memory of a 2 yo! We did VT, ran back through 1-6 of AAS, and she was good to go. She's not gonna win contests, but she's survivable

I have a 13 year old who reads well but cannot spell.  At all.  I think visual memory is the root issue.  We're working on Wilson, and we've gotten, with a TON of effort, up to maybe a beginning second grade spelling level.  Maybe.  I'm hoping she can get up to a third to fourth grade level, which is where spellcheck starts to become functional, but I'm honestly not sure that's going to happen.  I suspect VT would help a great deal, but we made a good faith effort and got a raging case of PTSD from it, so that ain't happening again.