Study finds divorce is genetic. What do you think?

[Liz CA]

47 minutes ago, Tsuga said:

I mean... Do you not believe decisions are made in the brain? Even the Catholic Church has to some extent revised the duality of the soul doctrine to allow for mental illness, brain function and other physical considerations as part of our person (as opposed to a different type of dualism suggesting all behaviors come from some kind of immaterial soul, and not the brain--just executed in the brain). Not sure if you are Catholic or belong to a different religion but it would be interesting to hear why you think decisions don't come from the brain which is in the body. Maybe this is off topic, but I'd be curious to know your thoughts on, say, depression in that case. Also not genetic because it is not in the body? Or is there something different about behaviors related to divorce?

 

Not Carrie...obviously but I liked her post and will give it a shot to explain why I am cautious with the wording "genetic."

There are genetically inherited phenotypes - this is what you see when you look in the mirror; the natural color of your hair / eyes, your height.

Many people think of those observable traits as "genetic" but there are other, more complicated ways we can "inherit" tendencies. This is where epigenetics come in and a host of other factors. If your mother had depression, you may have a higher risk of depression but you can do something about this versus the fact that you are tall or short which is fairly unalterable.

I hesitate to say to people "divorce may be genetic" because some of them would hear "it's in my genes; there is nothing I can do to change it." When I acknowledge that SUD can also have a genetic component, I immediately follow up with "but you have a choice." 

This is the difference in inheriting a higher risk for something or a tendency toward....frequently with the option of taking steps to avoid certain unpleasant results versus how tall/short you are.

[SKL]

I think the point of the study is to reconsider how we attempt to reduce the risk of broken marriages for future generations.

For example, we can model and teach logical problem solving, but there are in-born traits that impact an individual's ability to be logical, especially when under stress.  So we may also need to teach kids how to recognize and deal with those traits before they get into the relationship problem solving stage.  If that's even really possible.

Anyone wonder if this kind of finding could lead to pre-marital genetic counseling?

(Possibly another reason to be worried about DNA info being available to anyone else.  Or to wonder whether it ought to be ....)

[Tsuga]

49 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Tsuga, I do believe some people stay in bad, abusive marriages for too long.  I did.  But I couldn't wrap my head around why he wouldn't just be straighten up and grow up and all could be well.  Especially after our son was born...people all have their own demons though and he wasn't willing to do the work to overcome his.  

And my dh's XW......she hooked up with another man but hid it quite well....and what she said was dh was just too difficult to live with.  An interesting side point to that is dh told me when he had back surgery when their youngest was an infant, the surgeon warned them that divorce rates were VERY high after this sort of traumatic injury and surgery.  He said the stress just kills some marriages. And it was true there were a couple of terrible years....recovering from the surgery, going to college when he had not even graduated high school, moving all of them into family housing....she worked a couple of part time jobs to help them survive.... By the time she left though, life was good again.  He was recovered and retrained and working at a new job making good money.  She however, started going out with workmates....gambling, going to bars, coming home at 3:00 a.m. smashed while he stayed home caring for the kids.  When she talked to dh's sister about why she left it was all about that time when he was injured and recovering from surgery.  She is a real grudge holder it seems.  

Those are the kinds of situations that people should have stuck out.  

But you don't see her behavior as compulsive or emotionally abusive, even borderline adulterous? Do you think that addiction, compulsive behavior, etc. are not heritable?

I wonder if people are confusing genetics with determinism.

You can be prone to something and still have a choice. However, having that tendency makes the choice WAY harder. Being attracted to people with destructive tendencies also makes it way harder.

That doesn't excuse being a selfish jerk.

But it provides a good explanation and if you can find a cause you can perhaps work harder on prevention.

Just saying "don't leave" is the least helpful. Because it doesn't address the reason some leave and some don't. It doesn't address the individual tendencies that cause some people to fall into traps that others see a mile away.

Adding: another thing people.overlook is that there are adult victims of divorce. So take Scarlett's example. Knowing that divorce is something associated with traits X, Y and Z could have helped him listen to people saying to avoid this type of person when dating.

I wish I had had that type of advice. Of course I didn't want to marry a jerk. DUH. But what will clue me into jerkiness? What if I know I'm prone to attracting a certain type? Instead I was just like, "I won't be like my mom. I won't give up."

That was the WORST possible attitude. I had no idea what to look for. I had no idea that her weaknesses were something that she found it difficult to control. I had no idea that her behavior attracted abuse and that anxiety and depression ran in families.

Looking at it as a choice was actually the worst possible way for me to approach it. Because the choice is a cumulation of behaviors that come.from many places. It is a result as well as a cause. To change you need to get to the roots.

[gardenmom5]

I think it's BS.

 

how many of these adoptees were well adjustsed?  How many struggled with being adopted?  how many had adoptive parents get divorced?  how many had adhd/asd/ocd/etc.  that are genetic - that they got from their bio parents?  (and which can often lead to young pregnancies that have babies put up for adoption?)

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, Liz CA said:

 

Depends on how we define that abuse. Some people put an outburst of profanity into the verbal abuse column. Others stay through beatings, assault and worse. There are different degrees as well as different definitions.

What I meant is that I am not saying "show some staying power in a marriage through beatings" This is completely different to me than the "life happens" issues that all people encounter through a lifetime. i.e stress rearing children, stress from unemployment, financial upheaval, health issues, etc.

 

 

Sure, I don't think this sort of thing is proscriptive - it's not telling people what the right thing to do is.

If the right thing to do is stay in a marriage and make it work, certain personality traits help, and others hurt.  They may not even be particularly correlated to it being a good or bad trait in general - I consider my procrastinating a bad trait, but occasionally it keeps me from making bad decisions in anger.

If the right thing to do is get out of a marriage, certain traits will also likely help or hinder it.

[Liz CA]

29 minutes ago, Tsuga said:

I wish I had had that type of advice. Of course I didn't want to marry a jerk. DUH. But what will clue me into jerkiness? What if I know I'm prone to attracting a certain type? Instead I was just like, "I won't be like my mom. I won't give up."

That was the WORST possible attitude. I had no idea what to look for. I had no idea that her weaknesses were something that she found it difficult to control. I had no idea that her behavior attracted abuse and that anxiety and depression ran in families.

Looking at it as a choice was actually the worst possible way for me to approach it. Because the choice is a cumulation of behaviors that come.from many places. It is a result as well as a cause. To change you need to get to the roots.

 

How long you have known someone before marriage can help with this. I've heard people say you can fake something for a few months but not for 2 years. There may be sociopaths who can but if we leave the extremes out of the equation, I can see that this might clue me in to a person's behavior under various circumstances. If I can observe how he acts when overworked, stressed, rushed, or when I am in a bad mood, it tells me a lot about the person.

If you know you are prone to attract a certain type, this can be a sign to work on some growth issues yourself. If I know  I am a people pleaser with poorly defined boundaries, I can work on this and if I meet someone who is trying to exploit those tendencies in me, I can spot it quicker and enforce healthy boundaries. If that person then gives up because he was trying to manipulate me, I know he is not what I want in a mate. Healthy people respect healthy boundaries.

ETA: As to your previous question about the brain. The brain is plastic, new neuronal networks can be forged and old pathways can be allowed to "wither away." We can literally change our brain to some extent. I could write more on this :) because this is an area of professional and passionate interest to me and we are still in the beginning stages of understanding how the reciprocity of influencing and being influenced plays out. For the purpose of this discussion though, I hope I have been able to explain why I see a potential snag with the study's wording - and if I could see the study design, there may or may not be other confounding factors.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

 

How long you have known someone before marriage can help with this. I've heard people say you can fake something for a few months but not for 2 years. There may be sociopaths who can but if we leave the extremes out of the equation, I can see that this might clue me in to a person's behavior under various circumstances. If I can observe how he acts when overworked, stressed, rushed, or when I am in a bad mood, it tells me a lot about the person.

If you know you are prone to attract a certain type, this can be a sign to work on some growth issues yourself. If I know  I am a people pleaser with poorly defined boundaries, I can work on this and if I meet someone who is trying to exploit those tendencies in me, I can spot it quicker and enforce healthy boundaries. If that person then gives up because he was trying to manipulate me, I know he is not what I want in a mate. Healthy people respect healthy boundaries.

I agree with this, but I also think we never know what the future holds and people can and do change behavior as a result of organic changes and/or experiences that lead them to be different. Someone can wreck on a motorcycle and have brain injury that frankly makes them jerkier. Someone could be screwed over by a business partner that makes them more protective of their money to the point where they are not as trusting of their mate as before. A mini-stroke can make an agreeable person less so. An infection can make a person irrational. And so on. 

[Liz CA]

Just now, Quill said:

I agree with this, but I also think we never know what the future holds and people can and do change behavior as a result of organic changes and/or experiences that lead them to be different. Someone can wreck on a motorcycle and have brain injury that frankly makes them jerkier. Someone could be screwed over by a business partner that makes them more protective of their money to the point where they are not as trusting of their mate as before. A mini-stroke can make an agreeable person less so. An infection can make a person irrational. And so on. 

 

Very true. We are not stagnant like cast in concrete. With the exception of TBIs who can have horrible effects, when life gets cruddy - and it does at some point for most of us - a person who has shown certain traits early on may be handling the crummy parts differently than someone of whom I already know that they are short-tempered, like to blame others and take little responsibility for their parts in a conflict or situation. Bitterness can creep in for sure depending on situations but someone who becomes aware of it or is made aware of it by others how it can harm the person may be more motivated to work their way through it and assess the situation more objectively over time or even seek professional help in sorting it out.

[SKL]

"...people who were adopted resembled their biological — but not adoptive — parents and siblings in their histories of divorce."

I think some people are reading this as though adoption is correlated with divorce.  I think that is a misreading.

I think they are saying:

• Adopted adults were studied to separate "nature" from "nurture" as causation.
• The adopted adults included both divorced (A-D) and married-but-never-divorced (A-ND) individuals.
• The adopted adults' bio families included both divorced (B-D) and married-but-never divorced (B-ND) individuals.
• The adopted adults' divorce histories were compared to the divorce histories of their bio parents and siblings.
• A significant trend was found where A-D tended be born to B-D, while A-ND tended to be born to B-ND.
• [one hopes they confirmed that nurture factors such as adoptive parents' divorces were less predictive.]
• If the study was done reliably, then this suggests "nature" is a much bigger factor in divorce than previously thought.

[Scarlett]

37 minutes ago, Tsuga said:

But you don't see her behavior as compulsive or emotionally abusive, even borderline adulterous? Do you think that addiction, compulsive behavior, etc. are not heritable?

I wonder if people are confusing genetics with determinism.

You can be prone to something and still have a choice. However, having that tendency makes the choice WAY harder. Being attracted to people with destructive tendencies also makes it way harder.

That doesn't excuse being a selfish jerk.

But it provides a good explanation and if you can find a cause you can perhaps work harder on prevention.

Just saying "don't leave" is the least helpful. Because it doesn't address the reason some leave and some don't. It doesn't address the individual tendencies that cause some people to fall into traps that others see a mile away.

Adding: another thing people.overlook is that there are adult victims of divorce. So take Scarlett's example. Knowing that divorce is something associated with traits X, Y and Z could have helped him listen to people saying to avoid this type of person when dating.

I wish I had had that type of advice. Of course I didn't want to marry a jerk. DUH. But what will clue me into jerkiness? What if I know I'm prone to attracting a certain type? Instead I was just like, "I won't be like my mom. I won't give up."

That was the WORST possible attitude. I had no idea what to look for. I had no idea that her weaknesses were something that she found it difficult to control. I had no idea that her behavior attracted abuse and that anxiety and depression ran in families.

Looking at it as a choice was actually the worst possible way for me to approach it. Because the choice is a cumulation of behaviors that come.from many places. It is a result as well as a cause. To change you need to get to the roots.

High maintenance and selfish is how I would best describe her.  From dh's family they all say she couldn't be pleased.  Dh said when he began dating her when he was 17 He liked her because she was 18 and seemed so much more mature than other girls their age.  Trouble is she never progressed beyond that maturity level.  She was always impressed by money.  Dh worked himself to death trying to buy her everything she wanted but it was never enough.  The guy she left him for had a hummer.  That he bought with his dead wife's insurance money---I think he was throwing that insurance money around like he was rich and she just fell for it.  they have both filed for bankruptcy and have now downsized to a tiny little fixer house so hopefully they are learning their lesson.  She has had several new vehicles in the 6 years I've been married to dh .  

Dh is the type who would never give up.  He even forgave an affair and then she left him 2 years later anyway.  She had him removed from the marital home by court order.  Removed him from the daily lives of his children.  These are the things I fear for my boys.  Choose wisely.  

[Crimson Wife]

A significant percentage of divorces stem from substance abuse and other compulsive behaviors (gambling, shopping, compulsive s*xual behaviors, etc.) Certain people have biological predispositions towards addiction/compulsive behaviors. Even if the child has been raised in an environment where he/she has not witnessed the bio parent's compulsive behaviors, that genetic predisposition is still there.

[Crimson Wife]

56 minutes ago, SKL said:

 

Anyone wonder if this kind of finding could lead to pre-marital genetic counseling?

I don't see how genetic counseling could distinguish between an individual who channels a predisposition for compulsive behavior into something negative (alcohol, drugs, gambling, p*rn, etc.) and one who channels that same predisposition into something positive (career, sports, art/music,  etc.)

I think the same genetic tendency that has led to alcoholism in several of my DH's relatives is the same one that has caused him to be extremely achievement-driven.

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Tsuga said:

I didn't ask about Cheetos. I asked about what you believe the connection is between your brain and your behavior.

Do you believe your behavior is caused by your brain, and that the brain is a physical object, a part of your body?

I don’t see divorce as a behavior. It’s a legal action that might be chosen because of behaviors. 

Like I choose my junk food over drugs. I still behave certain ways due to my brain, but I choose how to act on it. Just like, dh and I could have divorced each other because we’re both difficult, but we chose different actions. We’re still both nuts!

[Rosie_0801]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

@Tsuga, I did not edit my post. I have been painting all morning and have not touched the computer since I posted that. I am terribly, horribly sorry you went through all of those things and probably more than that. That is why I said in my post it was something I say jokingly and excluding abuse and mental illness. I would never actually advise a person dealing with abuse to stay because, “It’s so simple. Just don’t choose to leave.” I meant it 100% in a light-hearted way.

 

I have.

 

Blugoat said:

I've often thought that the reason I didn't throw in the towel a few times is that I'm a terrible procrastinator and prefer to avoid confrontation.  By the time it would take me to ge on with it, things have improved. 

 

Yeah, well. That's how the abuse cycle works. Shame no one taught us that before.

 

[Rosie_0801]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I think the point of the study is to reconsider how we attempt to reduce the risk of broken marriages for future generations.

For example, we can model and teach logical problem solving, but there are in-born traits that impact an individual's ability to be logical, especially when under stress.  So we may also need to teach kids how to recognize and deal with those traits before they get into the relationship problem solving stage.  If that's even really possible.

Anyone wonder if this kind of finding could lead to pre-marital genetic counseling?

(Possibly another reason to be worried about DNA info being available to anyone else.  Or to wonder whether it ought to be ....)

 

Presumably we also ought to be teaching our kids how to be single, because that might be the healthiest choice. As much as it sucks.

[SKL]

Yeah, I think there's a pretty good chance for my kids to end up single ... they don't have married bio or adoptive parents; they haven't seen married behavior modeled ... but at least they know a single life is a valid option.

[Bluegoat]

17 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

 

Blugoat said:

 

Yeah, well. That's how the abuse cycle works. Shame no one taught us that before.

 

 

I'm not sure I'm following you?

[TravelingChris]

There may be something to basic personalities that mean yes, stay married or divorce.  I mean if you are an analytical person, you know the stats are that if people can't divorce for money or some other reason for a few years, when they can, they don't because the marriage is better again.  That is without any type of professional counseling.  People get bored and lazy,  It seems like they do not stay like that but after a few years, get happier and more content.

[maize]

2 hours ago, Crimson Wife said:

I don't see how genetic counseling could distinguish between an individual who channels a predisposition for compulsive behavior into something negative (alcohol, drugs, gambling, p*rn, etc.) and one who channels that same predisposition into something positive (career, sports, art/music,  etc.)

I think the same genetic tendency that has led to alcoholism in several of my DH's relatives is the same one that has caused him to be extremely achievement-driven.

I don't think there is science to back up this theory that propensity for addiction and being achievement driven are linked. 

I suppose the dopamine reward pathways are involved in both, but highly functioning and malfunctioning doesn't suggest to me shared genetic etiology.

 

[Crimson Wife]

38 minutes ago, maize said:

I don't think there is science to back up this theory that propensity for addiction and being achievement driven are linked. 

I suppose the dopamine reward pathways are involved in both, but highly functioning and malfunctioning doesn't suggest to me shared genetic etiology.

Where do you think workaholism stems from then?

[maize]

9 minutes ago, Crimson Wife said:

Where do you think workaholism stems from then?

Workaholism as a cultural concept isn't usually well defined, we tend to apply it to anyone who works a lot.

This article offers a framework for determining whether an obsession with work rises to the level of addiction. Do you think it applies to your Dh? (You don't need to answer that here of course)

Obsession and addiction aren't necessarily linked--many people have obsessions that are not addictions.

[maize]

Forgot the link 

 

https://www.rehabs.com/pro-talk-articles/is-workaholism-really-a-genuine-addiction/

[Tsuga]

14 hours ago, Quill said:

@Tsuga, I did not edit my post. I have been painting all morning and have not touched the computer since I posted that. I am terribly, horribly sorry you went through all of those things and probably more than that. That is why I said in my post it was something I say jokingly and excluding abuse and mental illness. I would never actually advise a person dealing with abuse to stay because, “It’s so simple. Just don’t choose to leave.” I meant it 100% in a light-hearted way.

My DH is sometimes a total d#ckhead. I am sometimes a wacko nutjob. I haven’t left. He hasn’t left. So now we’ve been married 24 years. But he hasn’t ever thrown objects at my head or screamed profanities at us. That was all I meant. 

 

I guess my sense is, if people had any empathy or sense of sorrow at all about abuse, they wouldn't joke about divorce which is the only remedy. It's like joking about how vaginal birth is just "keep on pushing and don't give up!" when people keep explaining they'd have died without a c-section. It just isn't funny. It's not just not helpful, it's truly harmful.

We have had this conversation before, how truly and utterly harmful and possibly even deadly this idea that you "just have to not leave" and "well all people are jerks sometimes" is to people in abusive relationships.

Abuse is a slippery slope.

I don't have a problem with you personally but this is a topic you comment on regularly and always with a blithe, "well you can just not get divorced!" It's the how and the why that matter. I'm asking you because I do think you say a lot of wise things and people rightly listen to you. Please re-think this advice. At best it merely makes people feel good about themselves, and at worst, it can keep people in harmful situations longer.

[Tsuga]

11 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I don’t see divorce as a behavior. It’s a legal action that might be chosen because of behaviors. 

 

Well, divorce is definitely a complex set of actions that involve the law. I would assume in this case it could also be described as "a calculated and thorough attempt to socially and legally leave one's spouse" or something to that effect.

11 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Like I choose my junk food over drugs. I still behave certain ways due to my brain, but I choose how to act on it. Just like, dh and I could have divorced each other because we’re both difficult, but we chose different actions. We’re still both nuts!

 

What are you referring to when you use the word "I" other than your brain and body together? To take a step back, are you familiar with Descartes and dualism?

Also, junk food is a drug in my opinion. I personally wouldn't put it above alcohol, weed or even opiates. I don't see people having an easy time giving it up--those who do talk the exact same way that heroin survivors talk. So I'm not sure how this is bolstering your argument. Not that I'm judging, we all have our things, god knows I have mine. Just wondering why you keep bringing up the junk food.

[Tsuga]

10 hours ago, SKL said:

Yeah, I think there's a pretty good chance for my kids to end up single ... they don't have married bio or adoptive parents; they haven't seen married behavior modeled ... but at least they know a single life is a valid option.

 

As the kid of a single mom, I don't blame her singlehood for my divorce. I do, however, wish she had presented more happily married couples to me. IIRC, your kids are international adoptees? So their parents' lack of marriage may have been due to extenuating economic or conflict-related circumstances. I know you are super intentional about providing these kinds of opportunities to your kids, but have you considered intentionally introducing more married role models, say, through the church?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Tsuga said:

 

I guess my sense is, if people had any empathy or sense of sorrow at all about abuse, they wouldn't joke about divorce which is the only remedy. It's like joking about how vaginal birth is just "keep on pushing and don't give up!" when people keep explaining they'd have died without a c-section. It just isn't funny. It's not just not helpful, it's truly harmful.

We have had this conversation before, how truly and utterly harmful and possibly even deadly this idea that you "just have to not leave" and "well all people are jerks sometimes" is to people in abusive relationships.

Abuse is a slippery slope.

I don't have a problem with you personally but this is a topic you comment on regularly and always with a blithe, "well you can just not get divorced!" It's the how and the why that matter. I'm asking you because I do think you say a lot of wise things and people rightly listen to you. Please re-think this advice. At best it merely makes people feel good about themselves, and at worst, it can keep people in harmful situations longer.

Tsuga, you are personalizing something in a way I did not mean.

For our homeschool talent show, one boy did a stand-up comedy act. His last joke of the evening was to say that he had discovered the secret to long life: “Just keep breathing as long as possible!” Do you see? It’s a joke. It’s not meant to disparage the lady in Row four, whose father recently died of Pneumonia. Oh, silly man; he just didn’t keep breathing. 

This is like that. It is a joke. 

The bolded: Are you confusing me with another poster? Because I do not comment on this topic regularly or in an advising manner. I have no idea what you are talking about. When has a poster talked of abuse and mental illnes and I advised someone to stay?! 

My actual opinion on marriage for the record: don’t marry young. Don’t marry quickly. Consider whether marriage is even necessary for your goals. Avoid situations that would make leaving impossible as much as possible. Have your own money. Never relinquish all control of and access to money. 

To me, there are many deal-breakers. I listened recently to a couple who were telling me about how they made it through his infidelity and porn addiction. Personally? I do not imagine I would stay/come back to the marriage as they described. If I did come back, I cannot imagine ever telling others about what had happened; I think it would be a condition that my husband must never speak of this with people who didn’t already know. 

So - I am no “stay together at all costs” defender of marriage. I have come to be quite cynical about marriage, actually. 

Having said all of that, I don’t urge divorce over Annoying Spouse issues. My DH never finishes any freakin job and it bugs me. He painted the basement three years ago but missed a bunch of places where he didn’t bother to put up trim tape and he gave one coat on doors that needed two. I have been fixing all these old issues myself, preparing for a party tomorrow, and it makes me mad that he didn’t just do it all entirely and correctly three years ago. So this is an Annoying Spouse issue. It makes me mad but it’s not something to get divorced over. This is the kind of thing for which I would say, just stay. This is like the advice in the book It Takes One to Tango, which I have often recommended here. I don’t know if that is what you are thinking of, Tsuga, but here me now: I never would advise someone to stay in a marriage under abuse or mental illlness. My little joke about the secret to long marriage is NOT about that.