s/o What do you consider child abuse?

[LisaNY]

<gasp> Surely you jest. I mean, it immediately stops bad behavior. It makes misbehavior NEVER happen again. It brings kids closer to their parents. If you don't spank, you're letting your kids run all over you. Unspanked kids are out of control. Kids sometimes NEED a spanking. It's what LOVING responsible parents do. If you don't spank, what do you do: NOTHING?

 

*sigh* This is why I am coming to this place less and less. :sad:

[Pamela H in Texas]

*sigh* This is why I am coming to this place less and less.

 

lighten up. That is all it was meant to be.

 

There had been a lot of stone throwing and fussing and arguing and ridiculous accusations. Time to be silly. Any spanker or none could see it wasn't serious, though EVERYTHING in that post has been said in this thread.

[Remudamom]

I am not calling you, or any other particular parent lazy, or uncivilized, or unloving, or uneducated, or an abuser, or ill able to understand your children. I may have used some of those words in the course of trying to explain about how I feel about the spanking of children.

 

I believe you are wrong to think that it is ever necessary to spank a child.

 

Most, if not all, of my friends spank their children or have done and I know that most, if not all of them are not lazy, uncivilized, unloving, uneducated or abusive.

 

Actually, it's that last word that started this thread and I do personally believe that spanking is an abusive thing to do. It's not completely clear in my own mind as to why I don't consider most parents who spank to be abusive parents. Perhaps it's because those that I personally know, while I believe them to be wrong in their choice to spank, are quite clearly loving parents.

 

Is that any clearer?:)

 

Absolutely, frighteningly, chillingly clear.

[CAMom]

or any kind of implement IS illegal in this country and I would have a duty to report it.

 

Is that true? I thought the laws varied by state? I'm just wondering if you have some sort of citation for that?

 

I'd really like to know if it's illegal across the entire country to spank with any kind of implement.

[bumbledeb]

Absolutely, frighteningly, chillingly clear.

 

I don't understand why it should frighten you.

[bumbledeb]

Is that true? I thought the laws varied by state? I'm just wondering if you have some sort of citation for that?

 

I'd really like to know if it's illegal across the entire country to spank with any kind of implement.

 

You may not have noticed my sig line. I live in Scotland and that is the country to which I was referring.:)

[Remudamom]

I don't understand why it should frighten you.

 

You know that your friends are loving parents and yet they are still wrong because they do something you don't agree with.

 

Walk a mile sister. Some folks think homeschooling is abusive. You want to go there?

[bumbledeb]

You know that your friends are loving parents and yet they are still wrong because they do something you don't agree with.

 

Walk a mile sister. Some folks think homeschooling is abusive. You want to go there?

 

And that frightens you? You have no friends you consider loving parents and yet do some things you believe to be wrong?

 

Yes, I believe most of my friends are loving parents. In fact I don't think I could cope with having them as my friends if I believed anything other. I still think that spanking is wrong. My friends are aware of my belief, we have discussed it. We have agreed to disagree. Some of them send their children to school, we have discussed that too. Again we are able to consider one another wrong, or misguided or even simply just different and yet, amazingly, are able to remain good friends.

[Peek a Boo]

Actually, it's that last word that started this thread and I do personally believe that spanking is an abusive thing to do. It's not completely clear in my own mind as to why I don't consider most parents who spank to be abusive parents. Perhaps it's because those that I personally know, while I believe them to be wrong in their choice to spank, are quite clearly loving parents.

 

and this is the key to the whole darn conversation:

 

none of us are perfect parents.

some of us don't even HOMESCHOOL! [gasp].

[bumbledeb]

and this is the key to the whole darn conversation:

 

none of us are perfect parents.

some of us don't even HOMESCHOOL! [gasp].

 

None of us are perfect parents. We are all trying to do the best we can. We don't necessarily have it all figured out yet. But, as we do figure it out, we can improve, can't we?

[CAMom]

You may not have noticed my sig line. I live in Scotland and that is the country to which I was referring.:)

 

Oops. You're right.:) Sorry about that. I was just skimming this morning wasn't paying attention to signatures. My apologies.:)

[swellmomma]

I had a former friend who thought those feeding their babies were abusive and was very outspoken about it. It irks me when people decide just because it is not the way they do things it is abusive. Given those parameters I am abusive, I spank when necessary, I fed my older ones formula when they where babies, I Make them take their meds -by force if needed, I make them eat their veggies, brush their teeth, take a bath(I have done this by force as well, sticking my oldest son in the shower fully clothed when he wouldn't shower after coming home from a camp and smelling particularily ripe). I have forcefully held them down for the dentist (haing a root canal done), the doctor (stitches) etc. I have physically restrained my son in a bear hug when he rages, I have also picked them up and moved them when they didn't do as told such as moving out of a doorway. I even contain them when needed, such as sticking them in a cart when they can not properly stay with me at the store.

 

The good news is I homeschool them and can hide all this "abuse". After all there is a lot of people who feel that homeschoolers have something to hide, or are being abusive by not letting their kids attend ps.

 

As for the whole molestation issue. Are you freaking serious??? You think that by spanking we are putting our kids in danger of molesters??? First off my kids are not so stupid to equate a spanking done as a consequence of bad behaviour, or me forcing them to receive medical treatment etc with any and all adults being allowed to touch them in anyway they want. They have known from a very young age that it is okay for mommy to spank when needed, but not for someone else to. As for molesters, The vast majority of those molested will be by someone they love and trust, such as a relative. So don't think that you are suddenly keeping your child safe because you don't spank. Spanking my daughter, or holding her down for treatments etc, did not cause her to be molested. It did not make her more likely to be molested. Actually in her case it was her kind heart that did, She was molested this summer at a daycamp, not by an adult but by another child. I resent the implication that because I have spanked her for disobedience that I caused her to be at risk for that molestation and you can take that opinion and shove it where the sun don't shine. You deal with the aftermath of your child being molested and I guarantee spanking or not spanking never runs through your mind as something you could have done to prevent it.

 

For those holier than thou people who claim a spanking is abuse, I am so glad that you have found a method that works for your family, but do not get on your pedestal and claim that those who do spank are lazy, or uneducated or abusive. I spank, I have also spent a decade now taking classes, reding books and getting professional help for my kids to help discipline them for their behaviours. But when you deal with extremes the way I have you learn that reasoning is not always the route to go. When your child is intent on starting fires everywhere saying "no, no little johnny that is dangerous" doesn't cut it, he was spanked and he attended a fire bugs course. When your child goes into rages that put everyone including themselves at risk you have to use physical force to restrain them. When my child repeatly stole and other methods were not working, I spanked him. There is no one size fits all to parenting we all do the best we can to ensure that our own children grow up to be responsible, productive adults. I know my methods are working, 5 years ago I was told to institutionalize my oldest son, now at 10 he is an amazing young man, most of those dangerous behaviours have stopped, and I can see he is going to continue in this way to grow into a strong capable man. I did/do what is necessary to raise him this way, sometimes a spanking is what is necessary. In my home my children are not equals with me, I am not their friend, I am their parent, it is not a democracy. They will do as they are told, whether that means eat their veggies, do their school work, or clean their room. Saying no is not an option. They have plenty of other avenues to make their own decisions, but being outright disobedient, being dangerous, breaking laws/rules is not permitted. And if they continue to do so they will be spanked. Spanking is not a first choice, I have never spanked a child under the age of 2 and then it is only for the very dangerous things (like running away) until age 3 I do not spank for willful disobedience. I do not spank for normal kid behaviour, I do not spank for not eating their veggies, however having a tantrum over said veggies *may* result in a spanking if being removed from the table each and everytime didn't work. I work darn hard at making sure I am providing my children with a great life, including disciplining/punishing as needed, that is not abuse imo.

[Lovedtodeath]

None of us are perfect parents. We are all trying to do the best we can. We don't necessarily have it all figured out yet. But, as we do figure it out, we can improve, can't we?

 

That is why I have stuck around this thread. I am trying to learn from it. I have stated that I do not believe spanking is abusive. But I do not want my children spanked. It is just something I feel as intuition. So I am looking into alternatives. I know of at least 2 people who have sent PMs wanting more information on parenting without punishment. Debra is not being adversarial. She is explaining her answer to the OP and she is helping those, like me who are asking for more information, honestly, not with the intent of debating.

[Remudamom]

YeeHaw SwellMommma! You get the Mountain Oysters Award. Otherwise known as The Ballzies.

 

 

And I'll add to it. My kids don't have extreme behaviors, but around here, if I holler "freeze" or "stop" it has to be done, I'm not hollering because I like the sound of my own voice. And I made sure the kids knew that as soon as they were old enough.

 

There's a small window for spanking, imo, and I for one am glad I didn't miss it.

[Tami]

I skimmed these posts and wonder if parenting styles evolve based on what particular children need. If a child responds well to explaining and anticipating needs with a desire to be "good" and please the parents, that parent's experience will be a lens with which she looks towards other mothers. Perhaps we need to trust that what works for one child/family/mother may not be the answer for everyone.

 

For the mother who explains, anticipates needs, and coaches only to STILL find a strong-willed, defiant child who contantly tests limits - I would say that that mother will need to use forms of discipline other than a lecture. I would also ask what evidence there (in our schools and neighborhoods) is that modern parenting techniques are more effective than the old-standbys used for thousands of years. It seems to me that children are more poorly behaved and disrespectful than ever before in the history of Western Civilization. Children seem to have very little sense of respect for adults and each other, and more of them than ever before have been raised according to modern parenting techniques. Could this have something to do with listening to "the experts" of our day? Do we dare question the fruit of "the experts" or have they become infallible?

 

The mother of a compliant, easy-going child has a very different set of experiences than the mother of a strong-willed, limit-tester. I have seen mothers who have 4-5 easy-going children and believe that this is due to their superior parenting. Then, #6 comes along, and no amount of explaining or coaching does anything -- this child is determined to do whatever they want to do whenever they want to do it and the mother's world is ROCKED! Is it possible that mothers adjust their discipline to what their children need?

 

I am not going to judge other parents' experiences and techniques unless there is clear abuse. Each family has a right to raise their children according to their belief system, without being made to feel guilty about it.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Tami

[Lovedtodeath]

:iagree:very well said Tami!!:hurray:

[CAMom]

The mother of a compliant, easy-going child has a very different set of experiences than the mother of a strong-willed, limit-tester. I have seen mothers who have 4-5 easy-going children and believe that this is due to their superior parenting. Then, #6 comes along, and no amount of explaining or coaching does anything -- this child is determined to do whatever they want to do whenever they want to do it and the mother's world is ROCKED! Is it possible that mothers adjust their discipline to what their children need?

 

 

 

That is exactly what happened to me only I had 2 perfectly compliant children and now have a crazy three year old!!

 

I was so arrogant! I thought I was such a perfect parent and I judged everyone around me (only in thought, thank goodness I never said anything out loud!).

 

Now? Same set of parents. Same set of parenting techniques. New kid who does not comply. When we tell him to do something he either flat out says "no" or looks right at us and says, "Well, what if I don't want to?"

 

I'm no longer deluded into thinking I have superior parenting skills.;)

[Storm Bay]

Do you mean this literally?

 

Yes. My nephew would literally say, "spank me." Before that day, my sister adamantly refused. She's a huge fan of Barbara Colorosso (sp.) She is a big fan of reasoning with young children. My nephew always wanted to be as good at everything as his brother, who is 2 years older, and would have very intense tantrums. She handled it by giving him a place to calm down. Turns out, he needed something physical.

 

I have to agree with Maria von Trapp, who mentioned spanking in her book. Now you would think that a woman who grew up in Austria when she did (she was older than the movie made her, and they had been married longer and had a couple of kids together before escaping) would be for spanking all kids, but she wasn't. She basically said that you have to know your children and what works for them. Some children only need a look.

 

Abuse has been well defined here, and any type of abuse, be it physical, verbal, s*xu*l and/or emotional is wrong. Period. I've seen people abuse their children yet never lay a hand on them (I grew up when it was common for parents to use the belt & it wasn't considered abuse then, so I saw a lot.) My mother spanked me, and I never once felt abused by her. Sometimes I thought she was mean and unfair, but I think that's normal for a child when they don't get their own way. But I did get verbally abused by bullies at the bus stop, on the school bus and at school. That hurt and caused damage, whereas I knew my mother loved (still loves;)) me.

 

What bothers me most of all is when parents find a way that works well for their children and think that that way is the only way to raise children well. Not all children are born equally compliant, but all children need to be loved. Even the kids that push so hard, that are so obstinant and argumentative that they wear you to the bone, need to be hugged and told that you love them. Sometimes that can be very, very hard to do, but you have to make yourself see past their willfulness and see how you can teach them to turn that character trait into something positive. And the good natured kids that are so cute and huggable all the time need to be disciplined at times, no matter how cute and funny and how much you really, really want to just laugh at how cute they are, when they are deliberately disobeying. I've been at both ends of those extremes. Some kids are just easier to raise. Some families have all kids who are relatively compliant and easy going by nature. Some have intense, emotional, strong-willed children. Neither type is inherently better or worse, but one type is far easier to raise than the other.

 

I think the key is that a parent is involved in a loving, consistent way, and that each parent is aware of how they can best love, nurture, teach and discipline their children. I don't use discipline hand in hand with punishment/consequences, but in a wider meaning that could include appropriate consequences but also includes teaching them self-discipline.

 

Anyone who acts in anger, has to be very, very careful not to hurt a child in any way regardless of their parenting style.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Karin

[Lovedtodeath]

This seems to be directed at me. :)

 

Deb said she felt it was morally wrong to punish her kids. I just asked what she did when her kids were disobedient. And said "Nothing?" I think that was a logical question. Obviuosly, you didn't and felt the need to be snarky.

 

Well, I assumed that you really wanted to know. I do.:)

[5kidsforME]

Well, I assumed that you really wanted to know. I do.:)

 

 

I did want to know. I wanted to know what her childrens consequences for disobedience was. That was it.

[Renee in NC]

That is exactly what happened to me only I had 2 perfectly compliant children and now have a crazy three year old!!

 

I was so arrogant! I thought I was such a perfect parent and I judged everyone around me (only in thought, thank goodness I never said anything out loud!).

 

Now? Same set of parents. Same set of parenting techniques. New kid who does not comply. When we tell him to do something he either flat out says "no" or looks right at us and says, "Well, what if I don't want to?"

 

I'm no longer deluded into thinking I have superior parenting skills.;)

 

:iagree::lol:

[bumbledeb]

That is exactly what happened to me only I had 2 perfectly compliant children and now have a crazy three year old!!

 

I was so arrogant! I thought I was such a perfect parent and I judged everyone around me (only in thought, thank goodness I never said anything out loud!).

 

Now? Same set of parents. Same set of parenting techniques. New kid who does not comply. When we tell him to do something he either flat out says "no" or looks right at us and says, "Well, what if I don't want to?"

 

I'm no longer deluded into thinking I have superior parenting skills.;)

 

My story is just the opposite of yours. I too was deluded into thinking I had superior parenting skills. My first child was incredibly defiant and I did what I'd been brought up to believe was right, spanking included.

 

When I came to the parenting approach I use now, things improved drastically for me and for all my children.

 

My oldest son died 3 years ago and I can honestly say that barely a day goes by when I am not torn with sorrow for the times I punished him because I thought I was doing the right thing. Not only sorrow but anger at myself. I wish, wish, wish with all my heart that I could go back and treat him the way I now treat all my children.

 

I only hope that God will forgive me and let me be with him again in the resurrection.

[Storm Bay]

. I have seen mothers who have 4-5 easy-going children and believe that this is due to their superior parenting. Then, #6 comes along, and no amount of explaining or coaching does anything -- this child is determined to do whatever they want to do whenever they want to do it and the mother's world is ROCKED! Is it possible that mothers adjust their discipline to what their children need?

 

I am not going to judge other parents' experiences and techniques unless there is clear abuse. Each family has a right to raise their children according to their belief system, without being made to feel guilty about it.

 

Excellent post. You just reminded me of a woman I heard speak at a parenting workshop. Not only did she have 6 kids, she had been in a situation where she counselled parents. Until she had her sixth child (and 3 were already grown up--2 marriages) she could never understand it when parents said they'd done what she had suggested but that it hadn't worked.

 

My parenting style is not what I planned it was going to be, because once my eldest neared 3, it was apparent that my fabulous parenting skills (;) I thought I was doing a great job because I got so many compliments on her behaviour, etc, until that point...well, after she was old enough to get around) weren't working anymore. Each of my children needs slightly different parenting, too. It would be so much easier if one method worked equally well for all three.

 

But after many difficult years, I'm finlly getting compliments it was hard to imagine I'd ever hear. And I'm far less judgemental than I used to be about parenting styles.

[Storm Bay]

and this is the key to the whole darn conversation:

 

none of us are perfect parents.

some of us don't even HOMESCHOOL! [gasp].

 

:lol::tongue_smilie::iagree:

[Joanne]

I did/do what is necessary to raise him this way, sometimes a spanking is what is necessary. In my home my children are not equals with me, I am not their friend, I am their parent, it is not a democracy. They will do as they are told, whether that means eat their veggies, do their school work, or clean their room. Saying no is not an option. They have plenty of other avenues to make their own decisions, but being outright disobedient, being dangerous, breaking laws/rules is not permitted.

 

Know that while I am against spanking, I am not of the belief that it's reportable or abusive. IMO, if it's abusive, it's not spanking as I define it.

 

That said, I get the feeling from your post that you equate not spanking with lower standards of behavior and with passive parenting. I assue you that's not the case. I've seen plenty of permissive parenting on both sides of the spanking issue.

 

I also vehementaly disagree with spanking as *needed* for any personality. If you spank, fine, own it. But don't assume that a child "needs" SPANKING because that is not accurate. It's also erroneous to assume that non spankers are so because their children are easier, more compliant, etc. I've managed to discipline appropriately many children in personal and professional settings without spanking. These kids ranged from compliant to needing professional help. Many were not "easy".

 

I don't spank because research and prayer has lead me to that decision. The personality of the child would not change that.

 

BTW, I did a "Fire Program" in my home, inviting professionals in after some experiementation with fire between my boys, daycare boys and additional students. I think it was quite appropriate and fitting.

[CAMom]

 

My oldest son died 3 years ago and I can honestly say that barely a day goes by when I am not torn with sorrow for the times I punished him because I thought I was doing the right thing. Not only sorrow but anger at myself. I wish, wish, wish with all my heart that I could go back and treat him the way I now treat all my children.

 

I only hope that God will forgive me and let me be with him again in the resurrection.

 

I'm so sorry for your loss, Debra.:grouphug: I had a daughter who died and I know that pain all too well.

 

When my now defiant three year old was born, I got tons and tons of criticism for the way I was parenting him in the early days. He was so different from my older two. Plus, I was nursing him and I had not nursed the olders. My little guy was born exactly 51 weeks after my daughter had been born and less than 11 months after she died.

 

When he was born, I changed my early parenting to a style looking much more like attachment parenting rather than the "schedule your baby" technique I had used previously.

 

I was criticized for nursing him on demand. I was criticized for letting him sleep in our bed. It went on and on. I was told all the reasons I was wrong. I found myself explaining to my critics that I would give anything...anything to spend one single night with my daughter in my bed. I would give anything to nurse her whenever she cried. I would give anything to put her in the sling and carry her around instead of putting her in the crib.

 

I understand changing the way you parent after an event like that. I also respect the way any other parent chooses to parent their children because I know, first hand, that time and experience changes perspective and that each child is unique and should be parented that way.

 

God forgives all and, with you, I long for the day when I am reunited with my child in heaven.

 

:grouphug:

[hornblower]

My story is just the opposite of yours. I too was deluded into thinking I had superior parenting skills. My first child was incredibly defiant and I did what I'd been brought up to believe was right, spanking included.

 

When I came to the parenting approach I use now, things improved drastically for me and for all my children.

 

My oldest son died 3 years ago and I can honestly say that barely a day goes by when I am not torn with sorrow for the times I punished him because I thought I was doing the right thing. Not only sorrow but anger at myself. I wish, wish, wish with all my heart that I could go back and treat him the way I now treat all my children.

 

I only hope that God will forgive me and let me be with him again in the resurrection.

 

Wow. What a poignant story. :grouphug:

 

And a moving lesson for us all.

 

What will we regret?

 

That our child didn't instantly leap to follow our orders & we punished harshly and repeatedly and if they continued to 'defy' we continued to escalate our punishments?

 

Or that we took the time to build relationships, to talk, to play, to guide with hope and wisdom and humour?

 

Thank you for sharing your story, bumbledeb.

[Joanne]

Yes. My nephew would literally say, "spank me." Before that day, my sister adamantly refused. She's a huge fan of Barbara Colorosso (sp.) She is a big fan of reasoning with young children. My nephew always wanted to be as good at everything as his brother, who is 2 years older, and would have very intense tantrums. She handled it by giving him a place to calm down. Turns out, he needed something physical.

 

Just a note. I think Colorosso's work is great. On theory, but short on application. But those of us who don't use punitive parenting don't all believe in "reasoning" or "talking" as discipline. Our range of tools is much broader and our approach more firm than "reasoning".

[Pamela H in Texas]

Deb said she felt it was morally wrong to punish her kids. I just asked what she did when her kids were disobedient. And said "Nothing?" I think that was a logical question. Obviuosly, you didn't and felt the need to be snarky.

 

I can only see this because of Carmen's quote. Since you PM'd me about being snarky, I'll take this as a response to that. As I pointed out in another thread, it was NOT my intention to be snarky but to make a point, but in a silly way. I sometimes use sarcasm to make a point with my kids too. They get it. But again, message boards are different as you can't really hear tone, giggles, etc. I should have been more careful so please accept my apology.

 

But my response was simply because ALL of those things were said and otherwise implied also in this thread.

 

Anyway, so just so it's clear though...I DID answer, honestly, without snarkiness, sarcasm, etc here:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showpost.php?p=650575&postcount=182

 

In case you missed my REAL response :)

[LilyK]

I am not talking about spanking or not. I am talking about the adversarial assumptions and the inaacurate assumptions that a child who hits peers will grow into a adult or older child who assaults. This is completely against my experience and observation. most kids hit at some point;most never assault as adults.

 

 

I changed my stance on spanking, and it has been years since I have spanked my kids. This is mostly because I am a product of abuse too, but not from my parents, who did not spank, but from my sister. I was the only sibling younger than her, and she would hit me growing up. She was never punished in a way that seemed appropriate to me, and she was certainly never spanked for it. Once I became a teenager, I would fight back and she had to stop, but she had gotten a lot of years of hitting in.

To make a long story short, her daughter lives with me now, she was a very abusive parent. Joanne, I totally agree that spanking is not the way to go, but I wholeheartedly believe that hitting as a child needs to be addressed, and addressed seriously. I don't think that all kids hit, and I do see a great possibility for kids that hit to grow into abusive adults.

[Danestress]

I have two sons who really are just so easy to parent (at 11 years old - we'll see when they are older what transpires, lol). I never punish them. They never need it and they never needed it as younger children. They have been absolutely delightful and easy to manage from very early on. If they do something wrong, we talk about it. I might actually verbally reprimand, but they truly are responsive and I don't see why I need to "punish" beyond just expressing displeasure.

 

And if those were my only children, I would believe I was God's gift to parenthood and I would write books about all the great secrets I have for raising perfect children and I would believe that I was entitled to write those books, because the proof would be in the pudding, as they say.

 

But God in his wisdom gave me another child (my first, actually) who is sadly lacking the "pleasing" gene. He was more difficult from day one. A darling, lovey, smart child, but stubborn. Controlling. Quick to anger. Often dissatisfied. And bafflingly dishonest even though DH and I are pretty easy going and don't really think he needed to lie to stay out of trouble. It's like he lied for the pleasure of lying. And still does, actuall, at times.

 

I am not a spanker, but he did require SO much more real discipline than the others did. I frequently felt I needed to punish him - and he actually responded to it. He could care less that if he was rude I didn't like it. The only way to change the rudeness was to have a consequence, so I became the "consequence queen" which was not a role I liked, but it worked. All is well now (he's 20 and I feel sorry for his wife buy enjoy him as a mother).

 

But I guess I read this tread and just think that we all have different children who need different things. I don't think any child really *needs* to be spanked, but I can understand why parents find it very effective for their children even though it might not be effective for mine.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Danestress

[nova mama]

I disagree with the argument that responses that are inappropriate for an adult are therefore inappropriate for children. In many cases, it's completely impractical. If you do the wrong thing at work, you are docked pay, written up, or fired. How would this translate to the discipline of a child? Sometimes the consequences for adult "misbehavior" are not immediately felt. But in the training of a child, I do believe in immediate consequences. (Maybe if a child goes in the knife drawer, nothing will happen the first time. But I have to teach you NOW not to do it so you don't find out the hard way later.) I understand people's reservations about spanking (personally, I support it), but not on the grounds that physical punishment is in appropriate for adults.

[bumbledeb]

I'm so sorry for your loss, Debra.:grouphug: I had a daughter who died and I know that pain all too well.

 

When my now defiant three year old was born, I got tons and tons of criticism for the way I was parenting him in the early days. He was so different from my older two. Plus, I was nursing him and I had not nursed the olders. My little guy was born exactly 51 weeks after my daughter had been born and less than 11 months after she died.

 

When he was born, I changed my early parenting to a style looking much more like attachment parenting rather than the "schedule your baby" technique I had used previously.

 

I was criticized for nursing him on demand. I was criticized for letting him sleep in our bed. It went on and on. I was told all the reasons I was wrong. I found myself explaining to my critics that I would give anything...anything to spend one single night with my daughter in my bed. I would give anything to nurse her whenever she cried. I would give anything to put her in the sling and carry her around instead of putting her in the crib.

 

I understand changing the way you parent after an event like that. I also respect the way any other parent chooses to parent their children because I know, first hand, that time and experience changes perspective and that each child is unique and should be parented that way.

 

God forgives all and, with you, I long for the day when I am reunited with my child in heaven.

 

:grouphug:

 

I am just sobbing and sobbing reading your post. I know exactly how you feel. I'm going to go now and finish crying and hug my kids.

[Jennifer3141]

Everytime I think about force weaning or spanking my kids, I read a post like yours CA and know we're on the right path.

 

I did spank my son. I listened to professionals when I should have trusted my instincts. That was a mistake I'll never make again.

 

Jen

[5kidsforME]

I can only see this because of Carmen's quote. Since you PM'd me about being snarky, I'll take this as a response to that. As I pointed out in another thread, it was NOT my intention to be snarky but to make a point, but in a silly way. I sometimes use sarcasm to make a point with my kids too. They get it. But again, message boards are different as you can't really hear tone, giggles, etc. I should have been more careful so please accept my apology.

 

But my response was simply because ALL of those things were said and otherwise implied also in this thread.

 

Anyway, so just so it's clear though...I DID answer, honestly, without snarkiness, sarcasm, etc here:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showpost.php?p=650575&postcount=182

 

In case you missed my REAL response :)

 

When you quote someones response it is always nice to answer THAT particular response. Otherwise confusion abounds.

 

FTR when someone Pm's you it is nice to leave it in the pm. :001_smile:

Edited November 17, 2008 by Momto4kids

[Peek a Boo]

None of us are perfect parents. We are all trying to do the best we can. We don't necessarily have it all figured out yet. But, as we do figure it out, we can improve, can't we?

absolutely!

 

and just cuz one of us thinks the other needs to improve doesn't make it so ;)

[5kidsforME]

absolutely!

 

and just cuz one of us thinks the other needs to improve doesn't make it so ;)

 

:iagree: :D

[Remudamom]

absolutely!

 

and just cuz one of us thinks the other needs to improve doesn't make it so ;)

 

Absolutely. I personally don't give a rat's @$$ if/how/when/why you spank/timeout/ground your kids. And neither do I care what you think about my parenting decisions. This isn't "just so others can learn". This is yet another "We're right, you're wrong" thread.

[5kidsforME]

Absolutely. I personally don't give a rat's @$$ if/how/when/why you spank/timeout/ground your kids. And neither do I care what you think about my parenting decisions. This isn't "just so others can learn". This is yet another "We're right, you're wrong" thread.

 

 

I agree once again. :iagree: I like that smiley. :D

[Peek a Boo]

That said, I get the feeling from your post that you equate not spanking with lower standards of behavior and with passive parenting. I assue you that's not the case. I've seen plenty of permissive parenting on both sides of the spanking issue.

 

just to make sure we're all even here, :) Ill add the other side to this:

I get the feeling from your [general your] post that you equate spanking with unrealistically high standards of behavior and with aggressive parenting. I assure you that's not the case. I've seen plenty of abusive parenting on both sides of the spanking issue.

 

I also vehementaly disagree with spanking as *needed* for any personality. If you spank, fine, own it. But don't assume that a child "needs" SPANKING because that is not accurate.

 

assuming 100% of children don't need a spanking isn't accurate either.

 

It's also erroneous to assume that non spankers are so because their children are easier, more compliant, etc. I've managed to discipline appropriately many children in personal and professional settings without spanking. These kids ranged from compliant to needing professional help. Many were not "easy".

 

I don't spank because research and prayer has lead me to that decision. The personality of the child would not change that.

 

 

and while i applaud your conviction and effort and experience, manymanymany other people w/ as much if not more experience than you have come to the opposite conclusion. Not to belittle your own experiences and credentials, but there's a lot of people in this Big World.

 

BTW, I did a "Fire Program" in my home, inviting professionals in after some experiementation with fire between my boys, daycare boys and additional students. I think it was quite appropriate and fitting.

 

we've done something similar for the pyros in our family ;)

[Peek a Boo]

And a moving lesson for us all.

 

What will we regret?

 

That our child didn't instantly leap to follow our orders & we punished harshly and repeatedly and if they continued to 'defy' we continued to escalate our punishments?

 

Or that we took the time to build relationships, to talk, to play, to guide with hope and wisdom and humour?

 

 

 

some of us know that the two are not mutually exclusive.