s/o drinking during pregnancy in the middle ages

[MamaBearTeacher]

I know in the middle ages people in Europe (and other places?) drank wine or mead instead of water because the water was often not safe to drink. I am wondering if there was a higher rate of FAS and other problems during the middle ages.  I know infant mortality was very high back then but for other reasons.  What do you think of pregnant women drinking wine in the middle ages?

[Bluegoat]

Well, I think there would be some regional differences.  In England I IRC a lot of people drank ale and it was much more watery than what we have today.  They had cider, but mead was more for the wealthy.  Wine was a more southern thing and I'm not sure it was a lot like what we drink now.  Distilled liquor was harder to come by, it didn't get made in large quantities until the industrial revolution.

 

Higher alcohol levels are not always easy to produce.

[MamaBearTeacher]

So their alcohol was much less strong than ours today but I got the impression that that's what they drank all the time i.e.. every meal or to hydrate themselves, so they may have been getting more.  But they were probably used to it and did not get drunk from it.  Still, would it affect the fetus?

[Bluegoat]

My sense is that the concentration is more important for this question than how often they drank it.  But I don't think there is really any way to know how common FAS was.  

[Sandragood1]

It’s a different type of beer called small beer.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_beer

[Entropymama]

I understood that the alcohol content was more like 2% in beer and cider, and that wine was often 'cut' with water. You'd have to drink an awful lot of that to compare with a mixed drink of today, or even a glass of wine. 

 

Still, it would be interesting to know, if you could ever get the data. 

[wonderchica]

Not quite the Middle Ages, but I do giggle every time Claire threw back a whisky with her huge belly on Outlander lol.

[eternalsummer]

Even if you drank 2-3% beer with every meal, you'd still never get a very high concentration of alcohol in the bloodstream.  If you drank 3 beers right in a row, that would be different (vastly) than 3 half-strength beers spread out over 7 or 8 hours.  

 

I'm not aware of a study that shows negative effects for the fetus at low levels of alcohol use; there are a couple that suggest low level alcohol use doesn't have negative effects but they're not huge studies (the first one I found on google had 1600 women in it).

[rose]

Not really the middle ages but my understanding is that Victorian England had really bad FAS rates and even child alcoholism.

[Bluegoat]

Not really the middle ages but my understanding is that Victorian England had really bad FAS rates and even child alcoholism.

 

That period was really different than the middle ages with regard to alcohol consumption, especially among the poor.  By that point they had huge amounts of very cheap gin available (plus other hard liquor) and people drank buckets of the stuff.

 

There is a reason the Temperance movement became so huge - it really was a scourge on the poor.  

Edited February 8, 2018 by Bluegoat

[Bluegoat]

Even if you drank 2-3% beer with every meal, you'd still never get a very high concentration of alcohol in the bloodstream.  If you drank 3 beers right in a row, that would be different (vastly) than 3 half-strength beers spread out over 7 or 8 hours.  

 

I'm not aware of a study that shows negative effects for the fetus at low levels of alcohol use; there are a couple that suggest low level alcohol use doesn't have negative effects but they're not huge studies (the first one I found on google had 1600 women in it).

 

 

It's even very different off you drink lower alcohol beers now rather than higher ones.  It can be difficult for most people to get drunk on beer at 3% or so - it has so much water that it fills you up before you can drink enough.  Even if you were to drink that al day, it's kind of steady-state.

 

A 7% beer on the other hand - really over 4% for most people - will lead to greater levels of drunkeness if you keep drinking without deliberate breaks.

[UncleEJ]

Not quite the Middle Ages, but I do giggle every time Claire threw back a whisky with her huge belly on Outlander lol.

 

Yes! I was so annoyed when I read the books! Like, Claire, you are a modern woman, and medically trained! Did they not know about the effects of alcohol during pregnancy in the 1940's?!

[Bluegoat]

Yes! I was so annoyed when I read the books! Like, Claire, you are a modern woman, and medically trained! Did they not know about the effects of alcohol during pregnancy in the 1940's?!

 

Women in the 40s generally weren't told to totally abstain, no.  To drink moderately, yes.  

[creekland]

Considering drunkenness was an issue in the Bible mentioned several times, I highly suspect folks were getting drunk back then, if not with meals, then purposefully just as many do now.  Whether women, esp pregnant women, were commonly allowed at these parties or not is up for debate.  I know some females had to be there for the "other" aspect of the parties that is well documented (in art, relics, etc).

 

I suspect FAS was prevalent among the class that could afford such things.  How well those kids did or whether they even made it to adulthood would be another question.  Not many medical connections were made back then.  It was probably blamed on sin or not being right with whichever god was believed in.  Whether that sin included the drunkenness among the population I'm not sure about, but the Bible definitely implies it for the Jewish/Christian followers well before the Middle Ages.  Muslims also kept the sinfulness of alcohol during the Middle Age time period, so I'm thinking they may have made at least some connection, but more than just with pregnant women - the whole "idiot" part of being drunk and/or getting addicted would fall under that.

[hornblower]

Life was nasty brutish and short.

I do think there were times and places where if your choice was water which comingled with sewage and a low alcohol beer or mead, it was way better to pick the booze. 

But I also think people were stunted physically and intellectually. 

[creekland]

But I also think people were stunted physically and intellectually. 

 

Not all of them.  It only takes walking around the ruins and seeing many of the places that still stand to realize there was quite a bit of intelligence among them.  What we need computers and machines to do, they did purely by intelligence and skill - from astronomy to architecture and water sources, etc.

 

I continue to be impressed by ancient man.  The idea that they were all dumb and needed to "evolve" is far from reality.  I think they were the same as folks are now with the range of intelligence and ability.  Growth was stunted due to lack of food or better nutrition in more areas, but that's not the whole story.

[hornblower]

Not all of them.  It only takes walking around the ruins and seeing many of the places that still stand to realize there was quite a bit of intelligence among them.  What we need computers and machines to do, they did purely by intelligence and skill - from astronomy to architecture and water sources, etc.

 

I continue to be impressed by ancient man.  The idea that they were all dumb and needed to "evolve" is far from reality.  I think they were the same as folks are now with the range of intelligence and ability.  Growth was stunted due to lack of food or better nutrition in more areas, but that's not the whole story.

 

but I think that was a tiny fraction of the norm. The peasants were peasants. The beggars were beggars.  It's the same problem as history being mostly a record of the victors. The accomplishments were of the very few, the privileged. I think the masses suffered greatly.  I think we underestimate the scope of the ongoing misery for the vast vast majority of people. I'm not a fan of the past lol; I think we romanticize  it...

 

 

And I get a kick out of all the historical records of religious leaders beseeching clergy to moderate their consumption. By many accounts, monks were blotto an awful lot. 

[regentrude]

but I think that was a tiny fraction of the norm. The peasants were peasants. The beggars were beggars. It's the same problem as history being mostly a record of the victors. The accomplishments were of the very few, the privileged. I think the masses suffered greatly. I think we underestimate the scope of the ongoing misery for the vast vast majority of people. I'm not a fan of the past lol; I think we romanticize it...

But you made a claim about stunted intellectual ability. Poverty and lack of access to education is not the same thing.

Edited February 8, 2018 by regentrude

[creekland]

but I think that was a tiny fraction of the norm. The peasants were peasants. The beggars were beggars. It's the same problem as history being mostly a record of the victors. The accomplishments were of the very few, the privileged. I think the masses suffered greatly. I think we underestimate the scope of the ongoing misery for the vast vast majority of people. I'm not a fan of the past lol; I think we romanticize it...

 

 

And I get a kick out of all the historical records of religious leaders beseeching clergy to moderate their consumption. By many accounts, monks were blotto an awful lot.

It's still a fraction of the norm. Elon Musk is hardly typical today. All generations of history have had their top and bottom 1% and the whole bell curve in between. Poverty or wealth is a separate issue than intelligence. There are plenty of intelligent low income folks and plenty of not so smart wealthy ones both now and in history.

[Bluegoat]

Of all the medical problems that affected peoples' intellects in those days, I suspect this was not the biggest.

[MBM]

I did a quick search and found this: Unfiltered ales contain yeast, proteins, B vitamins and traces of acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme formed during fermentation. The latter two help with the breakdown of acetaldehyde, the chemical that causes DNA damage. So maybe unfiltered, weak ales were not as damaging.

[Tanaqui]

I know in the middle ages people in Europe (and other places?) drank wine or mead instead of water because the water was often not safe to drink.

 

Commonly stated, but not actually supported by the evidence. They drank wine or beer because they liked it better than water - same reason people today drink wine or beer (or coffee or tea or soda).

 

http://www.medievalists.net/2014/07/people-drink-water-middle-ages/

[Epicurean]

Drinking alcohol during pregnancy is not nearly as harmful as many Americans believe. The idea that FAS is a concern for mothers who drink moderately is not really supported by science. All the studies hat supposedly show how bad drinking is for the fetus come from self-reported surveys in America where the mothers often also reported using cocaine and other drugs (if you're he type of mother to openly admit to drinking while pregnant in America, you are much more likely to drink to excess and have other behaviors that put the fetus at risk). In cultures where drinking during pregnancy isn't as stigmatized, like Australia, they haven't found a link between FAS and moderate drinking. If I remember correctly, that study found that drinking the equivalent of 2 - 3 beers a day had no effect.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Epicurean

[Sandwalker]

Women in the 40s generally weren't told to totally abstain, no. To drink moderately, yes.

Doctors even prescribed amphetamines to pregnant women in the '1940's-1950's so they wouldn't gain too much weight.

[Sandwalker]

https://www.nofas.org/light-drinking/

 

There are studies that show that light alcohol consumption during pregnancy does not appear to have a negative effect on the fetus. However, given that there is no real way to test for subtle harm done to the fetus, unless I guess you took identical twin embryos and implanted one each in the uterus of identical twin mothers who will then eat, sleep, work, and do everything the same during the pregnancy. Then they'd raise the twins exactly the same and see if there are LDs or differences in IQ, etc. Not to mention miscarriage risks.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Sandwalker

[Ausmumof3]

Not all of them. It only takes walking around the ruins and seeing many of the places that still stand to realize there was quite a bit of intelligence among them. What we need computers and machines to do, they did purely by intelligence and skill - from astronomy to architecture and water sources, etc.

 

I continue to be impressed by ancient man. The idea that they were all dumb and needed to "evolve" is far from reality. I think they were the same as folks are now with the range of intelligence and ability. Growth was stunted due to lack of food or better nutrition in more areas, but that's not the whole story.

Incidentally I read recently that the whole "stunted growth Middle Ages" thing is being rethought and actually the average heights were similar to today.

[Violet Crown]

It's an oddly persistent myth that the medievals drank alcohol instead of water because the water wasn't clean. The water generally was clean, and water was the usual drink. (Keeping in mind that "Middle Ages" covers an entire continent for a millennium, I'm sure exceptions can be found, but I'm not aware of any.)

 

In cities, towns, villages, and rural areas, people drank from fountains, cisterns, wells, and brooks. Water cleanliness was taken seriously. Medieval fountains in town squares from Spain to Scotland can still be seen -- and some still run -- all over Europe today. In Rome, for instance, you can see people drinking from public fountains that have been there since Roman times and operated through the middle ages. Medieval London had a famous water importation system, the "Conduit."

[Melissa in Australia]

Drinking alcohol during pregnancy is not nearly as harmful as many Americans believe. The idea that FAS is a concern for mothers who drink moderately is not really supported by science. All the studies hat supposedly show how bad drinking is for the fetus come from self-reported surveys in America where the mothers often also reported using cocaine and other drugs (if you're he type of mother to openly admit to drinking while pregnant in America, you are much more likely to drink to excess and have other behaviors that put the fetus at risk). In cultures where drinking during pregnancy isn't as stigmatized, like Australia, they haven't found a link between FAS and moderate drinking. If I remember correctly, that study found that drinking the equivalent of 2 - 3 beers a day had no effect.

you must have been looking at old studies from Australia. there is now evidence that some indigenous communities in Northern Territory have close to 100 % of children with differing degrees of FAS . FAS is a huge problem in some areas of Australia and becoming more wildly known.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Melissa in Australia

[Bluegoat]

I think it's also inaccurate to say that they drank those things just because they preferred them though.

 

They were food, and you don't waste calories.  Pasteurization wasn't a thing, alcohol is a good preservative and you couldn't store fruit juices without them fermenting.

 

 

[Bluegoat]

you must have been looking at old studies from Australia. there is now evidence that some indigenous communities in Northern Territory have close to 100 % of children with differing degrees of FAS . FAS is a huge problem in some areas of Australia and becoming more wildly known.

 

I think you'd have to be very careful to conclude those smaller areas weren't pockets where there was more than moderate drinking going on.  No one has ever claimed heavy drinking does not cause problems.