I'm wondering if my hs philosophy needs some tweaking.....

[Shasta Mom]

Last night, I had dinner with friends, none of whom hs their kids. We talked about education a lot, and the topic came up again about one of the benefits of hs'ing being the ability to let a child work on a topic/project for an extended length of time, in depth, something that the ps's don't allow with their 30 minute subject time slots. The benefits of this in depth study, of course, are immeasurable - the child gets to exercise his/her brain in ways that can't happen in ps, where the subject is glossed over, before it's time to move on. Well, it was a friend who brought this up in the context of expressing disappointment in his daughter's experience in ps, and that she isn't trained to think, but to do.

 

So, now, I reflect on what I have constructed for my ds, and - YIKES! - I'm probably not better off in regards to in-depth concentrated time on a subject. When I peruse TWTM, I get this nagging guilt trip that I'm not pushing academics enough on my 4th gr ds. With all that is suggested in TWTM, how does anyone have time to get that in depth THINKING?

 

I've been subscribing to the three R's, and each day it's a bit of a race to get the academics done..................It's dawning on me that maybe I'm missing the boat.

 

So here's what we do every day:

Elson Reader (brief - not more than 10-15 minutes. I like the reading selections, and it's something DS enjoys reading with cereal)

Countdown to Logic - (he's limited to 10 minutes/day. If it's not fun for him, I don't push it.)

Singapore Math - (we do upwards of an hour. I feel strongly about being solid in math.)

R&S Grammar 4 - (We do most orally, or on the white board)

Writing Tales 1 - (So far, we do about one lesson per week. He enjoys writing the stories)

Lively Latin - (I enjoy the program, as does he. We take our time, and read the history)

 

Then, it's either science or history. History gets one hour two days/week, and so that doesn't include many activities AT ALL. We read in SOTW vol II, the Usborn encyc, and try to get some suggested books from our library. We do brief map work, and about once a month get a project - although they've been good. My son made a beautiful sword using a jig saw, and now we're doing a mosaic. We also have joined net flix and are trying to incorporate some evening educational movies. Extra reading?? Gosh, where's the time? I require him to read for about 40 minutes/day, and feel that he's had enough pushed his way, and that he should read his own literature choices (within my guidelines). (I do read to him at bedtime, though, and we try to do some lit from the time period we're studying,.....)

 

Now, when all these topics are done, it's usually about 12:30 pm, and I know that academics are done for his brain. We then practice music for about 1.5 hours.

 

So, in review, I'm racing to get all this stuff in, and as soon as he's done with one topic, I clear his plate so to speak and bring the next entree out. It's a race against the clock for me. Where are these extended concentrated learning times where he's forced to really think something through? Is this what the grammar stage is - not to learn to think, but to just fill the child with facts and rules and information? What if my dc wants to work on something more in depth?

 

I should add, too, that my decision to hs is based on a few factors - mainly our family schedule - we're not home for the whole school year, and right now, in my personal life, I have the time to try and hs. It's not for religious reasons, and I think our ps here is ok. Now I reflect, and think, I'm sacrificing my whole day for this (but I admit, I enjoy it), and is ds getting a greater benefit by what we're doing, or would he get the same benefit in ps?

 

Sorry so long, but I really need to hash this out.

 

THanks!

[Michelle T]

to do that much in depth thinking, or deeply pursuing a particular academic question. 4th grade is still pretty young.

 

I can't say for sure, because my own DS, 12, has severe LD's and ADHD, and is definitely NOT able to do any school work in depth, or even without my constant guidance.

Michelle T

[camibami]

You know, in my perfect world, I would follow my girls lead. We'd spend hours looking up info on marine mammals, make models of them and those shoe-box habitat things, we'd learn to read with books on whales and we'd do fractions with the number of bones in a dolphin's head.They'd be passionate about xyz, and I'd make the required elements fit around that.

 

But dude, I just do not have the time.

 

So we use workbooks and schedule spelling and do math drill. Thus far, my oldest has a few passionate interests that she explores, but she still rather play outside than work on them, LOL. No one is teaching themselves Gaelic or anything around here.

 

I would like that kind of educational experience, but it just ain't happening.

[sagira]

Speaking from a newbie's point of view and having just crafted my hs philosophy, for us what I like so far is the Charlotte Mason point of view. Devote the earlier part of the day to our structured lessons and free afternoons to play, ponder and pursue interests. My ds is only five, but I find that during this long chunk of time he asks interesting questions about the lessons we had done earlier, and he keeps thinking about the concepts learned in science, etc. Very interesting. I find more and more of what CM said applies in real life. Short lessons, the integration of art and poetry into our lessons, and nature studies.

 

It all comes together nicely.

 

That said, it seems that as hsers we doubt ourselves more even than the average mother -- and that's saying a lot! :tongue_smilie:

[PeterPan]

ShastaMom, I think you're being too hard on yourself! It's the perpetual thing that happens to you or me or anyone when we talk with people whose kids go to school, to come away feeling like you're not good enough, so just don't do it to yourself! You don't know the context of what was going on in your friend's dd's classroom to know what made her make that comment, and she doesn't know what is going on in your homeschool to know how it would compare. Homeschooling inherently has more thought throughout the day, because we TALK to our kids and do not PARCEL or restrict knowledge. You are doing the opposite, interacting with him throughout the day and giving him time, materials, and freedom to go more deeply on things that interest him.

 

You're doing great and have a wonderful plan for him. I wouldn't stress your soul about it at all! :)

[Strawberry Queen]

:iagree:

 

Oh Elizabeth makes an excellent point. My idea of an in-depth project and someone else's are 2 different things. It seems that you have all of your ducks in a row as far as subjects go. I think that with homeschooling the time is available should the student *want* to study in-depth or over and above what is already happening.

 

I think it is more likely to happen in later grades because their minds are more able to reason and connect the parcels of information in their heads.

 

So, no worries. You're doing just fine.

[Colleen in NS]

Extra reading?? Gosh, where's the time? I require him to read for about 40 minutes/day, and feel that he's had enough pushed his way, and that he should read his own literature choices (within my guidelines).

 

Now, when all these topics are done, it's usually about 12:30 pm, and I know that academics are done for his brain. We then practice music for about 1.5 hours.

 

I think you are covering the necessary skill areas: math, writing, reading, grammar, and Latin. And you're introducing logic skills. I think you're doing fine, too!

 

I'm finding I'm doing the same thing - racing through skills work in the mornings, with ds and dd. And assigning some history/science/lit./art appr./music appr. reading to be done independently after lunch, along with a history map, timeline dates, science sketch (all stretched out on different days of course). I used to be able to do all the extra reading with them, but it's too much anymore, and besides, they can read for themselves now, so I give it to them. BUT!!!!!!!!!! I still do read aloud to them, it's just at a relaxed time after supper, and I include those content topics and lit., but I don't pressure myself anymore to read every single thing. I do what I can, and pile up the library books for them to choose from in the afternoon. This is where the extra reading/thinking/projects come in - in the freer afternoons (as opposed to mornings) when they read and relax and come up with their own projects.

 

In short, I zero in on skills work in the mornings and give them reading time in the afternoons. They read from the library pile WAY more history/science etc. topics than I could ever hope to have time to read to them from without me going crazy.

 

hth!

[Rhondabee]

 

 

We then practice music for about 1.5 hours.

 

 

If that isn't going deeply into something, then please tell me what is! I was a piano performance major in college, and even *I* don't find the time (anymore) to practice 30 minutes a day, much less 1.5 hours!!!!

 

OTOH, you will know when dc wants to go deeply into something, because he'll ask about it, and you'll help him find the answer to whatever it is. Trust yourself. (And, some kids *are* naturally more - or less - inquisitive than others.)

 

I wouldn't sweat it.

[stripe]

Last night, I had dinner with friends, none of whom hs their kids. We talked about education a lot, and the topic came up again about one of the benefits of hs'ing being the ability to let a child work on a topic/project for an extended length of time, in depth, something that the ps's don't allow with their 30 minute subject time slots. The benefits of this in depth study, of course, are immeasurable - the child gets to exercise his/her brain in ways that can't happen in ps, where the subject is glossed over, before it's time to move on.

 

But part the hs experience is that if your child isn't getting something, you can adjust, or at least finish the thought instead of having the bell ring and the book closed, whether the point was expressed or not.

 

Also, long, deep thinking and extended activities do become more relevant as the child gets older.

 

I don't think you need to spend 2 hrs a day on each subject. You sound pretty well-rounded to me.

[Mommy22alyns]

Is this what the grammar stage is - not to learn to think, but to just fill the child with facts and rules and information?

 

If I correctly recall my WTM reading, yes it is. When the logic stage starts, that's when we start to teach the child to organize facts and all that other good stuff (that I don't exactly remember this second). :001_smile:

 

 

 

What if my dc wants to work on something more in depth?

 

 

 

Then you have the freedom to meander over that way if you (and he) wish. A freedom that he wouldn't have in ps, most likely.

 

I'm a real beginner myself, but I do want to say that a lot of benefits our kids get from hs'ing aren't quantified academically. He wouldn't get to eat cereal while he did his reading at ps. I don't think he would have been able to make a sword or mosaic.... And he wouldn't have so much time with his mom, who probably loves him more than anyone else in the world.

 

Just some thoughts....

[Shasta Mom]

If that isn't going deeply into something, then please tell me what is! I was a piano performance major in college, and even *I* don't find the time (anymore) to practice 30 minutes a day, much less 1.5 hours!!!!

 

OTOH, you will know when dc wants to go deeply into something, because he'll ask about it, and you'll help him find the answer to whatever it is. Trust yourself. (And, some kids *are* naturally more - or less - inquisitive than others.)

 

I wouldn't sweat it.

 

Thanks for the input, Rhonda.........

 

I know when I read the email it sounds extreme -the 1.5 hrs of music, but it's not intense. He loves music, got good at a young age, and it's part of life. We actually have a really good time together doing music - some stuff we play together, and then I work with him on theory, etc. I guess one thing I should add, is ds is able to focus. We've been told that from the start. He's not one of these gifted kids that blows through the academic subjects and gets straight A's, but he does plod away. So, I think - we should let him go on projects. It's such a struggle trying to find the balance, I guess.......

[Ummto4]

I agree with Oh Elizabeth that HS lends itself to more thought because of discussion that happens during the lesson.

 

HAving said that, I sort of catch your anxiety on getting everything on schedule TWTM-way. After homeschooling for 1 year (yes, I'm still a newbie), one thing which I learn is that understanding of a concept can't be rushed. Also, rushing ruins our enjoyment on content subjects (science, history, geography).

 

So I'm sort of taking my time now. The length of the lesson is still the same, but I don't feel rushed anymore and I also stop being stressed out if my son does not understand everything in his skill area (and thus behind in his scope and sequence). E.g. for math, instead of following our textbook to a T, I list the scope and sequence for 2 year worth of lesson and pick and choose the one my ds understands and do those while waiting his maturity to catch up with the previous concept. If it's Roman numeral, so be it (traditionally Roman numeral is not studied till 2nd or 3rd grade). We even slow down with SWR. It's so freeing not to be tied to a textbook anymore. It'll even out at the end.

 

For content, e.g. history, I opt for a longer cycle so that we don't rush it. We also will not study every civilization exist on this earth. So we are going to pick and choose bigger civilization and dwell longer on those. My son retains his lesson very well this way. I personally think that TWTM history cycle is too short and it doesn't give time to dwell in a certain civilization.

[Rhondabee]

Thanks for the input, Rhonda.........

 

I know when I read the email it sounds extreme -the 1.5 hrs of music, but it's not intense. He loves music, got good at a young age, and it's part of life. ..

 

I just hope you recognize that as quite an accomplishment, as well as the "going deep" that you say you are looking for. I wouldn't dismiss his music experiences simply because someone (anyone) hasn't deemed them "academic". I would revel in the experience and enjoy it (I'm sure you do!). The worst thing you could do is to compare your academic experience to someone who loves or is gifted at some academic subject as much as your dc loves music. They will never know the joy of what you experience, you know?

[Donna T.]

Everything that you have shared as a concern is also a concern of mine! I was, in fact, just thinking about this very thing earlier today. I have to constantly remind myself of my original hopes for our homeschool endeavor. One of the things that was most important to me from the beginning is that my children have unstructured time to pursue their own interests in-depth. So, I've learned that means we have to say no to alot of good things. I KNOW we should be putting more time into learning a foreign language and we have stopped Latin for now. I'd like to spend more time teaching specific skills, like drawing and writing. I have to restrain myself and be constantly aware of how much I'm piling on. It's hard to say no to so many good and important things but I'm really commited to providing the time in their day, each day, to pursue their interests. I don't think it's about age at all. My six year old has strong interests. My nine year old has VERY strong interests and I know that's because I made sure he had plenty of time to consider things on his own.

 

You can't do it all. You can't study everything indepth, but I think we can learn to help our children focus on a few things that really matter to them. That's what I find most appealing about home-educating. No cookie cutter children around here. School shouldn't be an assembly line and not even a grammar staged child needs to be "spoon fed". My oldest son isn't studying Latin this year and he rarely gets the time to do some other things that I'd really like him to do. But, he is consumed with Chemistry right now and he spends many hours each week reading about Geology. He is really becoming an expert.

 

This concern is the main reason I could never do TWTM as its laid out. We do short lessons in the morning (more of a Charlotte Mason style) and they have the afternoons to study whatever is interesting them at the time. Yes, that means we don't fit in every good thing I'd like them to do... but, it's the best I can do and I'm ok with it. I mean, they can't spend their afternoons playing video games but they can choose what they want to read or do as long as I consider it to be profitable.

 

So yes, in the mornings, there is this feeling that I'm laying out one course, cleaning the table, and then laying out another! Lickety split like that. But, the afternoons are not hurried and yet they are still learning tons.

[Nan in Mass]

I have a 14yo and an 18yo that I'm homeschooling. They've been homeschooling since first and 5th grade. I, too, didn't feel like we were going in depth into anything, but looking back, I can see that we did just fine. Our days sounded about like yours except that it took us 2 hours longer to do LOL. I concentrated on skills, and sort of skimped on formal history and science (the content part), mostly so we could fit in drawing and music. It was well, well worth it. Right now, probably the most important thing you are doing is the music, Latin, and the math. Music and foreign languages both have developmental windows, so you need to make sure you do those early and fairly well, and math is one of those things that needs to be done consistently and well because it builds on itself and you won't wind up where you need to be at the end if you don't put in the time now. You are doing all three of these things, and devoting the proper amount of time to them. The skills that you are dutifully doing are more important at this time than in-depth content because later, if you can't do academic work fairly easily and automatically, it is difficult to do anything fast enough to have time to go in depth. The way to speed that up is to speed up reading, comprehension, and writing, all of which require the base that you are providing now. Look at it this way: at the moment, you want your children to be able to go in depth into the things THEY choose, right? That means lots of play time, which your nice steady schedule is providing them with. Later, when they get older, they won't need to work on skills as much, and they will use some of that time to go in depth into the things they are interested in. There is quite a lot of time in high school to pursue interests in depth. Meanwhile, you just have to make sure that if your child is particularly interested in Egyptian mummies, you take some of your history slot to read a few extra books about mummies, or do a few extra projects. And if your children say, "Can we try making that?" or "Can we try playing that?", you take the time to try it or make it. You can even say, "Yup. We'll make the Egyptian bread after school, ok?" TWTM had a nice literature/history reading list that slowly builds up those thinking skills. You'll get there, don't worry. Meanwhile, you just have to focus on skill building for the bulk of your time, and then loosely, with time to follow interests, work on the content stuff like history and science in what is left of your formal school time, not worrying if you don't finish a history spine or a science spine each year. I guess I could have condensed this whole post into "If you don't worry about finishing your history and science spines each year, you will have time to go in depth where your child wants to. The rest of the time, at this age, you should be working on those skills." LOL. Anyway, I think you are doing fine, especially with a Latin that you like, all that nice music, and plenty of math.

-Nan

[Shasta Mom]

I have to say that I'm amazed at all the thoughtful and thorough responses. I've read each one and appreciate them all. Thank you all so much for taking the time.

 

Since I posted, I've been thinking about it more, and now I'm toying with the idea of switching to projects as curricula get finished up in the early spring. For example, I expect to finish Singapore 4B by the beginning of March. One plan would be to begin the next level, or I could just review and do some CWP. That would free up some time. What do all the "mathies" say to the latter plan? Would I be doing him a disservice by not continuing math?

 

I think he's interested in electronics. We might be able to get into that some more, and perhaps more science.......Any thoughts?

[Colleen in NS]

I could just review and do some CWP. That would free up some time. What do all the "mathies" say to the latter plan? Would I be doing him a disservice by not continuing math?

 

I think he's interested in electronics. We might be able to get into that some more, and perhaps more science.......Any thoughts?

 

This is what I do if we finish a skills book early, just review stuff from it for a little bit of time each day, and then have more time for some other things. Then start fresh in the next book when the new year starts.

 

I concentrated on skills, and sort of skimped on formal history and science (the content part), mostly so we could fit in drawing and music. It was well, well worth it. Right now, probably the most important thing you are doing is the music, Latin, and the math. Music and foreign languages both have developmental windows, so you need to make sure you do those early and fairly well, and math is one of those things that needs to be done consistently and well because it builds on itself and you won't wind up where you need to be at the end if you don't put in the time now.

 

The skills that you are dutifully doing are more important at this time than in-depth content because later, if you can't do academic work fairly easily and automatically, it is difficult to do anything fast enough to have time to go in depth. The way to speed that up is to speed up reading, comprehension, and writing, all of which require the base that you are providing now. Look at it this way: at the moment, you want your children to be able to go in depth into the things THEY choose, right? That means lots of play time, which your nice steady schedule is providing them with. Later, when they get older, they won't need to work on skills as much, and they will use some of that time to go in depth into the things they are interested in. There is quite a lot of time in high school to pursue interests in depth. Meanwhile, you just have to make sure that if your child is particularly interested in Egyptian mummies, you take some of your history slot to read a few extra books about mummies, or do a few extra projects. And if your children say, "Can we try making that?" or "Can we try playing that?", you take the time to try it or make it. You can even say, "Yup. We'll make the Egyptian bread after school, ok?" TWTM had a nice literature/history reading list that slowly builds up those thinking skills. You'll get there, don't worry. Meanwhile, you just have to focus on skill building for the bulk of your time, and then loosely, with time to follow interests, work on the content stuff like history and science in what is left of your formal school time, not worrying if you don't finish a history spine or a science spine each year. I guess I could have condensed this whole post into "If you don't worry about finishing your history and science spines each year, you will have time to go in depth where your child wants to. The rest of the time, at this age, you should be working on those skills."

 

Wow, Nan, this is so encouraging to me!

[Obi-Mom Kenobi]

and I struggle with "output-focused" days too. I'm making myself let go, slowly I admit, of the "and onto the next thing" mentality and striving to do a few things well each day, rather than several things marginally. Padawan Learner developed a real clock focus over the past few years, which I know is a product of my own insecurities and need to manage things down to the minute. Thankfully, I'm getting better at catching myself and at noticing when he starts to put The Schedule ahead of actually learning anything.

[Capt_Uhura]

Nan wrote: "The skills that you are dutifully doing are more important at this time than in-depth content because later, if you can't do academic work fairly easily and automatically, it is difficult to do anything fast enough to have time to go in depth. The way to speed that up is to speed up reading, comprehension, and writing, all of which require the base that you are providing now."

 

 

Nan, this really jumped out at me! Thank you for taking the time to post.

 

CaptUhura

[Lovedtodeath]

One of the things that was most important to me from the beginning is that my children have unstructured time to pursue their own interests in-depth. So, I've learned that means we have to say no to alot of good things. It's hard to say no to so many good and important things but I'm really commited to providing the time in their day, each day, to pursue their interests. I don't think it's about age at all. My six year old has strong interests. My nine year old has VERY strong interests and I know that's because I made sure he had plenty of time to consider things on his own.

 

You can't do it all. You can't study everything indepth, but I think we can learn to help our children focus on a few things that really matter to them. That's what I find most appealing about home-educating. No cookie cutter children around here. School shouldn't be an assembly line and not even a grammar staged child needs to be "spoon fed". My oldest son isn't studying Latin this year and he rarely gets the time to do some other things that I'd really like him to do. But, he is consumed with Chemistry right now and he spends many hours each week reading about Geology. He is really becoming an expert.

 

This concern is the main reason I could never do TWTM as its laid out. We do short lessons in the morning (more of a Charlotte Mason style) and they have the afternoons to study whatever is interesting them at the time. Yes, that means we don't fit in every good thing I'd like them to do... but, it's the best I can do and I'm ok with it. I mean, they can't spend their afternoons playing video games but they can choose what they want to read or do as long as I consider it to be profitable.

 

So yes, in the mornings, there is this feeling that I'm laying out one course, cleaning the table, and then laying out another! Lickety split like that. But, the afternoons are not hurried and yet they are still learning tons.

 

:iagree::iagree:Wonderful! I think this plan really embodies the spirit of TWTM.

 

I concentrated on skills, and sort of skimped on formal history and science (the content part), mostly so we could fit in drawing and music. It was well, well worth it. Right now, probably the most important thing you are doing is the music, Latin, and the math. Music and foreign languages both have developmental windows, so you need to make sure you do those early and fairly well, and math is one of those things that needs to be done consistently and well because it builds on itself and you won't wind up where you need to be at the end if you don't put in the time now. You are doing all three of these things, and devoting the proper amount of time to them. The skills that you are dutifully doing are more important at this time than in-depth content because later, if you can't do academic work fairly easily and automatically, it is difficult to do anything fast enough to have time to go in depth. The way to speed that up is to speed up reading, comprehension, and writing, all of which require the base that you are providing now. Look at it this way: at the moment, you want your children to be able to go in depth into the things THEY choose, right? That means lots of play time, which your nice steady schedule is providing them with. Later, when they get older, they won't need to work on skills as much, and they will use some of that time to go in depth into the things they are interested in. There is quite a lot of time in high school to pursue interests in depth. -Nan

 

:iagree:Thank you both for these replies. It will help me as a reminder when we move forward.

[Hannah]

Shasta Mom, what you're doing sounds great!!

 

We were struggling with the rushed feeling earlier in the year and since the start of October eased up a bit for the last term of our academic year. We switched to a rotating schedule (also called a loop schedule), rather than a daily one. We just do the next thing on the schedule and start where we left off the previous day. We school for a fixed amount of time, rather than aiming to complete a daily to-do list. We get to most subjects about 4 times per week. The benefit has been that dd has the opportunity to spend as much time as she needs on a writing assignment, narration, experiment, etc. without feeling that we need to rush to tick the boxes off the schedule.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Hannah

[Lovedtodeath]

Hannah, where can I get specific how-tos on this type of schedule?

[Shasta Mom]

............and more great suggestions and analyses! I'm feeling optomistic this will work out. I guess, in reality, we do a bit of loop scheduling, with the exception of the core stuff. After math and language arts, we basically loop history and science........I supposed I could try looping it all, but I have to be careful. DS doesn't like change!

[coffeefreak]

Don't we all suffer from this stress at some time or another?:grouphug:

 

Have you thought about doing a unit study?

We are mostly a CM homeschool, with a little of this and that thrown in. We've done unit studies from time to time and it really is a lot of fun! I've used Konos (borrow the volumes or buy used), made my own, or just let my daughter pick her own books out. Last year we had some "fill time" and she wanted to learn about horses. We did an entire 6 weeks on horses and it was fabulous! The unit study covered history, science, reading, art and even a little math (we still did formal math and grammar). She learned so much, and it taught her to dig for info on her own.

 

The other thing I agree with is the poster who said leave the afternoons open so your kids can pursue other interests or be left to their own devices. We don't mean to, but our mornings kind of end up being this way and our afternoons are school. It's hard for me to concentrate when there's housework to be done and bills to be paid:001_smile:.

 

I hope all this helps. This thread has been an encouragement to me! See! You're not alone!