Katy Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 If there is any threat again, I will call 911. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 I agree that more needs to be done to protect children, and I am sorry for your situation (and your foster child's). But spanking would be assault and battery if you did it to another adult. If you are looking to prosecute parents for using physical force against their children because they would be prosecuted for using it against another (unconsenting, of course, as the children are unconsenting) adult, why exclude some force that you find palatable for some reason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 I agree that more needs to be done to protect children, and I am sorry for your situation (and your foster child's). But spanking would be assault and battery if you did it to another adult. If you are looking to prosecute parents for using physical force against their children because they would be prosecuted for using it against another (unconsenting, of course, as the children are unconsenting) adult, why exclude some force that you find palatable for some reason? It's not that I find it palatable. I was trying to exclude it from this thread because 1) It's political, 2) It's been found to be reasonable and legal by courts many times and thereby is currently a common law right, and 3) I'm talking about battery to the degree that these children required hospital care. Spanking someone's bottom is not that degree of battery, and would in no circumstances result in a sentence of life in prison. Putting an adult in the hospital certainly could result in a life sentence, especially multiple counts with multiple adults. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 If there is any threat again, I will call 911. Good. The problem I see is that there is a constant "threat" already in a sense, but not one that is so imminent as to make a call make sense. Yet the time lapse from no imminent danger to someone is already stabbed --perhaps with fatal or long term repercussions -- with a common household object is less than one second. Another approach might be to tell the child that you expect full positive 100% cooperation or else (police will be called, or whatever fits the situation will be done) -- not just that you will call if they molest or attack someone another time. And this could start with a requirement that they immediately produce the stolen object(s) that you are searching for because theft is a crime. And calling the police for that crime is something you can do. Possibly you could offer some carrot/incentive for producing the object(s) at this point, as well as the stick/ threat of the police call if they won't. I am assuming here that the stolen object(s) is significant. If it is a piece of candy or something trivial, then this would not make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) Good. The problem I see is that there is a constant "threat" already in a sense, but not one that is so imminent as to make a call make sense. Yet the time lapse from no imminent danger to someone is already stabbed --perhaps with fatal or long term repercussions -- with a common household object is less than one second. Another approach might be to tell the child that you expect full positive 100% cooperation or else (police will be called, or whatever fits the situation will be done) -- not just that you will call if they molest or attack someone another time. And this could start with a requirement that they immediately produce the stolen object(s) that you are searching for because theft is a crime. And calling the police for that crime is something you can do. Possibly you could offer some carrot/incentive for producing the object(s) at this point, as well as the stick/ threat of the police call if they won't. I am assuming here that the stolen object(s) is significant. If it is a piece of candy or something trivial, then this would not make sense. Yes, the constant threat is why we filed 10 days. Even the "poison" chosen isn't something that would have probably hurt the dog in the tiny quantity the child had access to (foods that are bad for dogs), it's the fact that the intent was there at all that is the problem. At least in that case the question of how much it would take to kill the dog was expressed to a therapist and not to me, so I knew to head that off. You also have to keep in mind that I'm sure the second we call police the child will switch to the stranger persona and appear perfectly calm and sweet to police. We'll seem like the unreasonable ones. I have multiple family members in the field (therapy, psychiatry) and THEY all thought we were being unreasonably strict after a family gathering. Until I explained what had just happened. And until they witnessed it for themselves. Heck, I thought the last foster mom was just stressed out and taking it out on the kids. I had no idea, and no one was honest about this. I can tell you one thing - I will be far less inclined to judge another parent for appearing too strict in public again. ETA: Kids like this don't really respond well to carrot/stick stuff. They WANT the excitement from creating a crisis, so if/when I do call police, the expression will likely be triumph, not fear. Edited July 21, 2017 by Katy 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Yes, the constant threat is why we filed 10 days. Even the "poison" chosen isn't something that would have probably hurt the dog in the tiny quantity the child had access to (foods that are bad for dogs), it's the fact that the intent was there at all that is the problem. At least in that case the question of how much it would take to kill the dog was expressed to a therapist and not to me, so I knew to head that off. You also have to keep in mind that I'm sure the second we call police the child will switch to the stranger persona and appear perfectly calm and sweet to police. We'll seem like the unreasonable ones. I have multiple family members in the field (therapy, psychiatry) and THEY all thought we were being unreasonably strict after a family gathering. Until I explained what had just happened. And until they witnessed it for themselves. Heck, I thought the last foster mom was just stressed out and taking it out on the kids. I had no idea, and no one was honest about this. I can tell you one thing - I will be far less inclined to judge another parent for appearing too strict in public again. ETA: Kids like this don't really respond well to carrot/stick stuff. They WANT the excitement from creating a crisis, so if/when I do call police, the expression will likely be triumph, not fear. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: Yes, and that makes things infinitely more difficult and more dangerous. She looks young and sweet and innocent and you end up looking crazy or like the bad guy. She can make it seem like it is all you. These kids are not wired like a normal kid. Carrot/stick just doesn't create the same dynamic in these kids as a kid without these issues. I'm so sorry her life was so horrific that it damaged her this badly and I my heart is breaking for her and for you and your other family members. This is a lose lose scenario. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Dh and I have gone back & forth, discussing whether or not we should try to get approved to do foster care. Between Katy's situation and a couple of others that I'm aware of, we won't. I am more than willing to take care of children who need some love and a home. I am not willing to do so if a dangerous situation occurs and the caseworker won't immediately remove the child. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guinevere Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Dh and I have gone back & forth, discussing whether or not we should try to get approved to do foster care. Between Katy's situation and a couple of others that I'm aware of, we won't. I am more than willing to take care of children who need some love and a home. I am not willing to do so if a dangerous situation occurs and the caseworker won't immediately remove the child. My understanding is that most states allow you to restrict to only providing care to 2 years old and under. If you are able, there are still a lot of young children who need help. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Yes, the constant threat is why we filed 10 days. Even the "poison" chosen isn't something that would have probably hurt the dog in the tiny quantity the child had access to (foods that are bad for dogs), it's the fact that the intent was there at all that is the problem. At least in that case the question of how much it would take to kill the dog was expressed to a therapist and not to me, so I knew to head that off. You also have to keep in mind that I'm sure the second we call police the child will switch to the stranger persona and appear perfectly calm and sweet to police. We'll seem like the unreasonable ones. I have multiple family members in the field (therapy, psychiatry) and THEY all thought we were being unreasonably strict after a family gathering. Until I explained what had just happened. And until they witnessed it for themselves. Heck, I thought the last foster mom was just stressed out and taking it out on the kids. I had no idea, and no one was honest about this. I can tell you one thing - I will be far less inclined to judge another parent for appearing too strict in public again. ETA: Kids like this don't really respond well to carrot/stick stuff. They WANT the excitement from creating a crisis, so if/when I do call police, the expression will likely be triumph, not fear. Yes, but if the child responds positively even if that is unlikely then you have a better situation. Or if the child does something that you have forbidden, and that is worthy of calling the police for, but hopefully not so harmful as to permanently hurt someone else, then that will probably help you toward getting the child sent elsewhere. Even if the being sent elsewhere is the result of your seeming to be unreasonable with the so-sweet child. Even though you filed 10 days, do you have any guarantee that child will be sent elsewhere then? Did you start a written record of all incidents? What were you told about the last foster mom situation? Have you talked with the last foster mom directly? One post of yours raised bi-polar as a possibility. Bi-polar does not turn on and off at will like this, IME. Have you done any reading on conduct disorder, or psychopathy and related problems and how to best manage that? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Dh and I have gone back & forth, discussing whether or not we should try to get approved to do foster care. Between Katy's situation and a couple of others that I'm aware of, we won't. I am more than willing to take care of children who need some love and a home. I am not willing to do so if a dangerous situation occurs and the caseworker won't immediately remove the child. Having had foster dc, I got to know a lot of others with foster dc. It usually is not this bad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 My understanding is that most states allow you to restrict to only providing care to 2 years old and under. If you are able, there are still a lot of young children who need help. Having had foster dc, I got to know a lot of others with foster dc. It usually is not this bad. I know many people who have had good experiences but a few too many that have been lied to by caseworkers so that they would take a child into their home under false pretenses, and then had their own family in a dangerous situation that took too long to get out of, causing more endangerment. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 Yes, but if the child responds positively even if that is unlikely then you have a better situation. Or if the child does something that you have forbidden, and that is worthy of calling the police for, but hopefully not so harmful as to permanently hurt someone else, then that will probably help you toward getting the child sent elsewhere. Even if the being sent elsewhere is the result of your seeming to be unreasonable with the so-sweet child. Even though you filed 10 days, do you have any guarantee that child will be sent elsewhere then? Did you start a written record of all incidents? What were you told about the last foster mom situation? Have you talked with the last foster mom directly? One post of yours raised bi-polar as a possibility. Bi-polar does not turn on and off at will like this, IME. Have you done any reading on conduct disorder, or psychopathy and related problems and how to best manage that? No guarantee at 10 days. Yes, written record. The previous foster mom is a friend, but child wasn't there as long and didn't show this level of behaviors. Suspect it happened faster here because I am home all day and the child isn't in daycare here. Also I am probably more inclined to keep a closer watch on kids anyway - the other parent is much more free range. I have read extensively on psychopathy since this child moved in. Behavior like this is called "callous and unemotional" at this age, and has approximately 50% correlation to adult psychopathy or antisocial behaviors. Because the label has such a stigma attached, it is considered unethical to diagnose a child as a psychopath. My understanding is that even at 7, people are reluctant to diagnose conduct disorder. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 No guarantee at 10 days. Yes, written record. The previous foster mom is a friend, but child wasn't there as long and didn't show this level of behaviors. Suspect it happened faster here because I am home all day and the child isn't in daycare here. Also I am probably more inclined to keep a closer watch on kids anyway - the other parent is much more free range. I have read extensively on psychopathy since this child moved in. Behavior like this is called "callous and unemotional" at this age, and has approximately 50% correlation to adult psychopathy or antisocial behaviors. Because the label has such a stigma attached, it is considered unethical to diagnose a child as a psychopath. My understanding is that even at 7, people are reluctant to diagnose conduct disorder. I read a book once (when I was dealing with someone who was displaying worrisome behavior), cannot recall the title or author, by someone who was studying brains of psychopaths/sociopaths versus normal brains and discovered that his own brain had the psychopathic/sociopathic architecture he'd found. It discussed some of why he thought the way he was raised allowed him to become a reasonably functional scientist rather than one of the murderers etc. he was studying. Among things I recall though it has been a while and this could be mistaken, was that he could not understand empathic reasons for why he should or should not do things, but he could understand absolute undeviating rules with absolute undeviating clear consequences. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia64 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 I knew a child who hid stuff behind couches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 The freezer is my favourite hiding spot for all sorts of valuables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 The freezer is my favourite hiding spot for all sorts of valuables. My grandmother was a money stasher. She used to freeze money ins plastic inside containers of freezer jam. When she passed away we had to unthaw all the jam to get it out, lol. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Wow Katy, what a difficult situation. Sounds like you have thought of every way possible to endure the remaining time you have with this child. I hope you are able to sleep safely. Folks upthread have listed great hiding places to check out. I'd add you may want to consider running a snake down the toilet. One of my siblings did that as a child - flushed personal property of a sibling she got mad at for any reason. It took a while to realize what was happening, but once my father suspected what she was doing, that snake brought up a few lost items. Some older kids I know used to hide things up in the ceiling tiles at the rec center - but I can't imagine a 7yo being tall enough to do that. I suppose body cavities aren't out of the question, at least for the time the child knows you are actively searching for a small item. I am so sorry you are battling this. You need help. The child needs help. If 10 days come and go, would it be possible to take the child to an ER for a psychiatric hold? You've got to be completely exhausted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 No guarantee at 10 days. Yes, written record. The previous foster mom is a friend, but child wasn't there as long and didn't show this level of behaviors. Suspect it happened faster here because I am home all day and the child isn't in daycare here. Also I am probably more inclined to keep a closer watch on kids anyway - the other parent is much more free range. I have read extensively on psychopathy since this child moved in. Behavior like this is called "callous and unemotional" at this age, and has approximately 50% correlation to adult psychopathy or antisocial behaviors. Because the label has such a stigma attached, it is considered unethical to diagnose a child as a psychopath. My understanding is that even at 7, people are reluctant to diagnose conduct disorder. Maybe previous foster mom would have ideas for how to get the child moved to elsewhere? Interesting that the child was better there, yet moved on sooner. Or maybe there is still more that you cannot be told about what happened for confidentiality reasons and because one cannot use words like "antisocial" generally IRL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 22, 2017 Author Share Posted July 22, 2017 (edited) I read a book once (when I was dealing with someone who was displaying worrisome behavior), cannot recall the title or author, by someone who was studying brains of psychopaths/sociopaths versus normal brains and discovered that his own brain had the psychopathic/sociopathic architecture he'd found. It discussed some of why he thought the way he was raised allowed him to become a reasonably functional scientist rather than one of the murderers etc. he was studying. Among things I recall though it has been a while and this could be mistaken, was that he could not understand empathic reasons for why he should or should not do things, but he could understand absolute undeviating rules with absolute undeviating clear consequences. Yeah, this was the direction DH & I were planning on going - teaching logical reasons for not breaking rules before everything broke loose. I discussed in another thread that correcting the idea that children could never be arrested did improve behaviors for several days. I wasn't threatening, just correcting wrong information. The freezer is my favourite hiding spot for all sorts of valuables. Child doesn't have reliable access to the freezer. All freezers have been blocked by baby gates - basement fridge and garage freezer before they moved in, entire kitchen since child showed obsessive interest in knives. Wow Katy, what a difficult situation. Sounds like you have thought of every way possible to endure the remaining time you have with this child. I hope you are able to sleep safely. Folks upthread have listed great hiding places to check out. I'd add you may want to consider running a snake down the toilet. One of my siblings did that as a child - flushed personal property of a sibling she got mad at for any reason. It took a while to realize what was happening, but once my father suspected what she was doing, that snake brought up a few lost items. Some older kids I know used to hide things up in the ceiling tiles at the rec center - but I can't imagine a 7yo being tall enough to do that. I suppose body cavities aren't out of the question, at least for the time the child knows you are actively searching for a small item. I am so sorry you are battling this. You need help. The child needs help. If 10 days come and go, would it be possible to take the child to an ER for a psychiatric hold? You've got to be completely exhausted. I think I can sleep safely now, with the alarm & camera system in place. Also, DH is a black belt, and the child is small for age. I'll mention snaking the toilet to DH. Too exhausted to deal with that myself now. Definitely too short for ceiling vents. There are no tiles except a small amount in the basement, which is blocked. If behaviors keep escalating, I will call 911 if need be and let police & DHS determine what to do. DH called the social worker tonight to report a new behavior and he was told child would be gone in less than ten, but idk. Color me cynical since nothing this social worker has told us previously was true. I am exhausted. Suspect I will sleep a lot for about 3 days when this kid is moved. Edited July 22, 2017 by Katy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 22, 2017 Author Share Posted July 22, 2017 Maybe previous foster mom would have ideas for how to get the child moved to elsewhere? Interesting that the child was better there, yet moved on sooner. Or maybe there is still more that you cannot be told about what happened for confidentiality reasons and because one cannot use words like "antisocial" generally IRL. There were different behaviors in that home that haven't happened here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinnia Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 If they can't place the child elsewhere quickly, is daycare starting Monday morning an option? That would give you 40/50 hours a week respite. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachel Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Katy you have a pronoun a couple posts back. Sending you big virtual hugs this morning and saying a prayer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valley Girl Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 I hope the social worker follows through. I cannot imagine how difficult this must be. After the child is removed, can you file a complaint against the social worker and/or agency because of the lies/misrepresentations/failure to disclose? Social workers are not serving the children who need fostering well when they lie about needs or end up discouraging foster parents from taking kids because the parents can't trust they're being told the truth. What an awful situation all around. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 I hope the social worker follows through. I cannot imagine how difficult this must be. After the child is removed, can you file a complaint against the social worker and/or agency because of the lies/misrepresentations/failure to disclose? Social workers are not serving the children who need fostering well when they lie about needs or end up discouraging foster parents from taking kids because the parents can't trust they're being told the truth. What an awful situation all around. That bothers me A LOT. The social worker not being honest. A child at Katy's house got abused because the social worker was not honest. That is really scary to me. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 22, 2017 Author Share Posted July 22, 2017 I hope the social worker follows through. I cannot imagine how difficult this must be. After the child is removed, can you file a complaint against the social worker and/or agency because of the lies/misrepresentations/failure to disclose? Social workers are not serving the children who need fostering well when they lie about needs or end up discouraging foster parents from taking kids because the parents can't trust they're being told the truth. What an awful situation all around. Unfortunately I suspect this is a situation where it would not do any good. This old blog post from HuffPo (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dawn-teo/the-10-most-surprising-things-about-foster-care_b_7058474.html) explains why it doesn't matter, as well as how they aren't necessarily bad, social workers simply have impossible workloads. The best I can say is that I am unlikely to take older kids again until we have no littles (pets, children) in the house. And we will probably never agree to work with anyone in that county again. Also, as a response to someone upthread, if you want to help foster kids but not deal with drama and behavior issues (which usually aren't this bad), you could volunteer as a CASA. That's a volunteer worker who works solely to decide what is in the children's best interest. Not every kid gets one, but complicated situations always do. We're always grateful to have one because we frequently don't have enough information to know what is in a child's best interest. But a CASA sees everything, meets everyone, and has the ear of the judge. Another thing that would help that's not in every area is to start or volunteer for a "clothing closet" for foster care. Some have not just clothes that would otherwise go to goodwill, but also baby items, etc. These are usually kept in large churches - in an unused Sunday school or storage room. Someone needs to run the closet, open it for emergencies, organize donations, make sure donations like toys or car seats or whatever aren't recalled or expired. I did hear of one person who ran it from the attic of her big old house, but I think that's pretty rare. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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