s/o: How organized were classes in your high school?

[kitten18]

I've also taught public school before. I can't imagine not having the flexibility to change assignments after the first day of school. Like, you couldn't decide that the class wasn't prepared to do one project and assign a different one several months later? You couldn't decide the class needed to skip homework one week, but needed an extra review on another in the spring, more than half a year after the syllabus?

 

There's got to be a good middle ground between giving rubrics, informing kids of where they stand, and staying flexible enough to actually teach and not just be a... static video course or something.

I could certainly change and add assignments. But I couldn't have added outside of school commitments. Like telling kids later that they were required to be somewhere outside of school hours.

 

My students did projects that cost money. I had to let them know how much that would cost their family at the beginning of the semester. If they were fast workers and needed more things to do, I had to go into my own supplies and find something for them, I couldn't ask their family to spend more money than what I told them at the beginning.

[Bootsie]

I totally agree here. 

 

 

I had a professor in college who actually gave a portion of a lecture specifically on rubrics and study guides and why teachers SHOULD give them.  (I was an elem. ed. major, not secondary.)  And her reasoning behind it was.....when I teach, there are specific things I want you to learn.  I want you to come out of my classroom know X and knowing Y and knowing Z.  SO....why on earth would I NOT tell you specifically that I want you to know X, and Y, and Z. 

 

In the most organized classes I have taken, the teacher has not had to tell me they want me to know X, Y, and Z.  Their clear teaching and focus has made it clear that they want me to know X, Y, and Z.  I find it difficult to believe that telling elementary children, I want you to learn X, Y, and Z has much impact on them.  That is one more mental hoop for them to jump through rather than focusing on absorbing the information.  (I do think it is good for the teacher to think about what he really wants to the student to know, but that doesn't have to be spelled out for the student.) 

[Word Nerd]

I don't know if it was a different time or culture, but the idea that we could pick and choose assignments based on whether they were "worth it" is inconceivable to me. And I don't know anyone in my class back then who didn't do their best on all assignments. That didn't mean that we all got perfect grades but we did what we could.

 

That concept is bizarre to me too. I did all of the assignments because that's what good students do. Edited May 16, 2017 by Word Nerd

[PeachyDoodle]

I don't know if it was a different time or culture, but the idea that we could pick and choose assignments based on whether they were "worth it" is inconceivable to me. And I don't know anyone in my class back then who didn't do their best on all assignments. That didn't mean that we all got perfect grades but we did what we could.

 

 

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Yes, I don't think it would ever have crossed my mind to slack off on an assignment because it wasn't worth as much, even if I had a syllabus that told me it wasn't. But maybe I am just that kind of person. Or perhaps it's family culture. My grandmother used to say, "When a job is first begun, never leave it 'til it's done. Be the labor great or small, do it well or not at all."

[Bluegoat]

I don't think it's a matter of slacking off, always, though.  I remember looking at the point value of something and realizing it was meant to be a much more or less involved thing that what I would have expected.  It was a guide to what the teacher was asking for.

 

That being said, I tend to think in a lot of cases that is covering for poor teaching or a class structure that doesn't allow them to spend as much time with the kids as is really needed.

[Bluegoat]

What exactly is investigated in these studies? What age groups does it refer to? I can see this holding true for very young children  - but not as a generalization, and certainly not across all subjects. Also, what do "test scores" measure?

How well is homework designed? Is it busywork (as has been mostly my experience with hw given in school) or is it carefully designed to address precisely the concept the student is supposed to learn and practice (as has been my experience with HW in my kids' college classes)?

 

Nobody learns to play an instrument well from just attending the once weekly lesson with the teacher but not practicing at home.

In college, most of the work is done outside of class, and students who fail to do this work will not perform well. Almost all problem solving in math and physics happens during the homework; a student will not  master the concepts if he just observes the few lecture examples.

And nobody learns to write without writing at home; you can't compose and revise a thoughtful essay in a 50 minute class period.

 

The research suggests that elementary school kids don't really benefit much from homework.  Which makes a lot of sense to me - at that age, even for things like music practice, I largely had to supervise and know what was going on with their work, and that isn't something that can be counted on with homework. 

 

And the other aspect is, at that age, six hours a day of school should really be all they need of school type activity.

[vonfirmath]

I did my best on all the assignments and tests. And to the comment that the students competing for awards would need to know what things were worth to make decisions.... um, those kids were in my class and they did their best o every assignment or test.

 

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This is what I was thinking. I never thought "which of these assignments can I flake out on"  I did my best on every assignment.

[Farrar]

I don't know if it was a different time or culture, but the idea that we could pick and choose assignments based on whether they were "worth it" is inconceivable to me. And I don't know anyone in my class back then who didn't do their best on all assignments. That didn't mean that we all got perfect grades but we did what we could.

 

 

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If I had done "my very best" on every single assignment in my high school career, I would have literally gone nuts. The workload was astounding. There was just no way I could put 100% into every math homework, every set of reading questions, every paper, every book. I mean, with three reading heavy courses, I had to read more than a book a week at times. The volume of writing was very high. I remember an infamously work heavy history course that had an essay, a quiz, two chapters of reading, a lengthy outline, and a group project due every single week. Some weeks, you just had to say screw it and cut corners, even though you knew it would cost you on the quiz.

 

I think there's strongly something to be said for deliberate assignments where every assignment is really worth 100% of your time. And that's something I think schools have really gotten away from. And there's a real danger in kids gaming out the grading system to slack off.

 

On the other hand, that too much work course was an AP class. The AP test was like a joke by the time we took it. We all thought it was absurdly easy. So the cram, cram, cram mentality did something too. And a good teacher will weight things well and structure a class so that students *both* know what's going on because that's only fair to them and doesn't allow for getting out of doing the important work.

 

I have a real hard heart for teachers who give unfair grades. When I was in high school, there was a class I went from a B to a D in because the teacher weighted homework as 20% of the grade. She only gave one homework assignment the entire semester. And I forgot it (no surprise - we never had homework!). And she refused to let me turn it in late. So that was that. I just think... sure, that wasn't my very best. But that's not really fair. And not knowing the stakes ahead of time (it was a rare thing at my school to not know... this teacher... she was a real piece of work... she ended up having a nervous breakdown the following year) made it just impossible. I decided to purposefully fail the following semester. It made her batty. She really freaked out.

[EmseB]

Some of us were bored in high school and did what we had to do to get by.  I mean, it's great that people do their best on every assignment, but some of us were typical teenagers.

 

I rarely did homework.  Because I could pass the tests or write a really good paper and still get a B in a class.  My thought was, why do all of this extra work that's supposed to help me learn what I need to know for the class when I could just...take the tests.

 

And there were a handful of people who diligently did their most awesome work on every assignment. But that was...not me.

[EmseB]

 

 

I think there's strongly something to be said for deliberate assignments where every assignment is really worth 100% of your time. And that's something I think schools have really gotten away from. And there's a real danger in kids gaming out the grading system to slack off.

 

This described me completely. If the homework is designed so that I can work on things I need to know for the test, but I can learn what I need to know for the test by just being in class and paying attention, or doing half the homework...then why should I do the homework? I remember spelling packets in 6th grade.  They were like 10 pages of exercises to do with our spelling words for the week.  And I could ace a spelling test, but I got average grades because I just couldn't force myself to sit and do those spelling packets.  And what was the point if I learned how to spell the words?  I do think part of it was our teacher teaching us how to budget our time and complete work across the week, but I really feel like there is a better way to do that than inanity.

 

I mean, I think in some sense it's a great skill to be able to have the work ethic to push beyond the busy work and do it anyway, but I did not develop that. I developed an idea that working on stuff I already knew how to do was dumb and necessary.

 

But this is getting way away from the OP...

[PeachyDoodle]

I don't think it's a matter of slacking off, always, though.  I remember looking at the point value of something and realizing it was meant to be a much more or less involved thing that what I would have expected.  It was a guide to what the teacher was asking for.

 

That being said, I tend to think in a lot of cases that is covering for poor teaching or a class structure that doesn't allow them to spend as much time with the kids as is really needed.

 

That's a fair point. I guess I generally felt like those expectations were communicated clearly on a case-by-case basis. I don't recall there being that many gray areas. It was more or less a given that a 10-page paper counted for more than a daily homework assignment. I never felt the need to know exactly how much more. Specific parameters for the papers, projects, etc. would be given at the time they were assigned, and I just worked to those specifications.

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

NM

 

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Jean in Newcastle]

Several posters have made comments like:

 

I just trusted my teachers.

I can't imagine not doing all of the assignments for every class.

This is just what good students do.

Work ethic means doing your best all the time.

 

 

We said these things because it was true for us. That doesn't negate your experience or that of Farrar's or anyone else. For me, there was a school culture that supported that, a larger culture of the country I lived in (Japan), and to a smaller degree (because I didn't live at home after age 11) a family culture that all put obeying the teacher and doing all assignments as a priority. I too was a gifted student. That meant that I could look over the material in the study hall before the test and still ace it but it didn't mean in my case that I didn't do the assignments. My school was college prep though and we used college textbooks in high school. There was no busy work. I also was in high school a decade or in some cases two decades or more earlier than some responding to this thread.

[Bluegoat]

I kind of hate talking about creating ways for students to figure out how to know what work is important, rather than creating a school system where they aren't having the need to do that.

[EmseB]

I kind of hate talking about creating ways for students to figure out how to know what work is important, rather than creating a school system where they aren't having the need to do that.

 

Well, but it's also just prioritizing too, in a situation where you're taking several different classes and each has its own assignments

 

Like, I may really love Shakespeare and want to spend hours on the short essay assigned about Romeo and Juliet.  But, the teacher truly intends for it to be a short essay, not a final paper, and I have another class where I really need to spend time on whatever project that's worth 20% of my grade.  You know?  I think you can give quality assignments that aren't unimportant, but a student needs to know when and where to throw their effort.

[Jean in Newcastle]

No, of course you wouldn't hand a syllabus to a second grader lol.  That's not the idea.

 

The idea is that if you are going to assign, for example, a project on the planet Mars, there are a bunch of different ways that can be done, and a bunch of different learning objectives.  A project that includes a short speech, of X minutes, with an opening and closing statement, plus 3 visual aids, is going to  have different objectives than a project that includes a large model with a report.  Giving kids a rubric ahead of time that shows X part of the speech is part of the grade, as is Y and including A and B and C in their visual aids is also part of the grade clearly lays out the objectives of the assignment. 

 

 

You can introduce instructional objectives without using a rubric.  One does not necessitate the other. 

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by _ -_-

[EmseB]

Same here.  I'm thinking this might be a generational thing.  Not doing the required work for a class - any class - was just not an option.  It never occurred to me that I could pick and choose assignments.  Nor to any of my friends from school (a wide variety, not all accelerated).

 

I don't know about generational.  The idea of kids who didn't do what they were supposed to in school goes back a long way.  Farmer Boy comes to mind right now.  The idea that kids in high school sometimes fail to do their homework isn't exactly new to 2017.

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by _ -_-

[Jean in Newcastle]

Of course the two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.  But the point of the lecture in college is that if you clearly spell out the objectives by both writing down AND explaining them, then you have clearly communicated to your students what they are supposed to do.  It wasn't "rubric is the only way." it was "rubric is clear and makes sure everyone knows what the objectives and most important things to know really are."

 

Now that's in the lower grades.  As applied to tests in 8th grade Earth Science, if a teacher hands out a review sheet/study guide for the unit test on Friday, that review sheet should tell kids exactly what it is they are being assessed on.  If a kid is going to be assessed on whether or not he knows the difference between lava and magma, he should know that.  If he's going to be assessed on the difference between igneous and sedimentary rock, he should know that.  There are a wide range of Earth Science topics that can be covered in a year, and which ones are the important ones and which ones aren't (for that particular class/year) should be communicated to the student.  And idealy, if you are going to be issuing a unit assessment at the end of the unit of plate tectonics, it's good to tell kids ahead of time that they are going to cover the layers of the Earth, hot spots, etc etc, because at the end of the unit, this is what they should know.

 

To me, it was really about the idea of "begin with the end in mind."  So as a teacher, I had goals for my students.  Letting those students know what the goal IS...is beneficial to the student achieving that goal

 

 

To put this in another context....if I am going to teach my 8yr old how to put dishes away out of the dishwasher, the first thing I do is show her where all the put away dishes go.  The goal is to get the plates HERE, and the bowls HERE and the forks HERE.  Then, I show her how you take the forks and spoons and butter knives out of the dishwasher, holding them so you don't poke your hand, and then take them to the drawer and sort them.  THEN, I have her unload the dishwasher after a load is finished, then I correct any issues.  SO....I verbally and visually state the objectives, then I demonstrate the process, then I assess what DD learned. 

 

How old are you?  When I got my teaching degree, the word "rubrics" wasn't even used in educational circles.  Of course we did evaluate our student's work.  But not using a rubric.  And we certainly didn't present one to our students because . . .   they weren't part of the educational landscape.  There is nothing wrong with using rubrics.  I have used them later on in teaching public school and in homeschooling as well.  But this thread is looking back to our high school experiences.  Obviously since we didn't know about them in college, my teachers hadn't had them during their college teaching classes and didn't use them for us.  And they still evaluated our work. 

 

[Bootsie]

Of course the two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.  But the point of the lecture in college is that if you clearly spell out the objectives by both writing down AND explaining them, then you have clearly communicated to your students what they are supposed to do.  It wasn't "rubric is the only way." it was "rubric is clear and makes sure everyone knows what the objectives and most important things to know really are."

 

 

 

To put this in another context....if I am going to teach my 8yr old how to put dishes away out of the dishwasher, the first thing I do is show her where all the put away dishes go.  The goal is to get the plates HERE, and the bowls HERE and the forks HERE.  Then, I show her how you take the forks and spoons and butter knives out of the dishwasher, holding them so you don't poke your hand, and then take them to the drawer and sort them.  THEN, I have her unload the dishwasher after a load is finished, then I correct any issues.  SO....I verbally and visually state the objectives, then I demonstrate the process, then I assess what DD learned. 

To me, having a goal for a student and sharing an evaluation rubric with the student before the task are two different things.  If I were teaching my child how to put dishes away, I would not provide a rubric up front of "I will evaluate what you have learned as follows:  2 points for each plate put in the proper place, 1 point for each fork, and additional point if the fork is turned the right way in the drawer, X points for not poking your hand...."

 

I can see that it is helpful to tell younger students, "We will have a quiz on multiplication--up to 9X9" so that it is clear that you are not expecting them to multiply 159X131 on the quiz.  However, once you start moving away from learning facts, I think it is much more difficult, and at times counter-productive, to provide too much detail regarding what the expectation is.  Once you move into a student synthesizing material and creating something new, I find that pre-prescribed, detailed rubrics become more problematic.  

[FaithManor]

How old are you? When I got my teaching degree, the word "rubrics" wasn't even used in educational circles. Of course we did evaluate our student's work. But not using a rubric. And we certainly didn't present one to our students because . . . they weren't part of the educational landscape. There is nothing wrong with using rubrics. I have used them later on in teaching public school and in homeschooling as well. But this thread is looking back to our high school experiences. Obviously since we didn't know about them in college, my teachers hadn't had them during their college teaching classes and didn't use them for us. And they still evaluated our work.

 

I must be younger than you. The terms was used when I was in college in the mid 80's, and explained in my music ed classes. Professors were known to having grading rules rubrics, called them that, and often inserted them into their course syllabi. I went to a top 50 LAC. Maybe they were doing "cutting edge" stuff or something. That said not every professor used them for certain.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I must be younger than you. The terms was used when I was in college in the mid 80's, and explained in my music ed classes. Professors were known to having grading rules rubrics, called them that, and often inserted them into their course syllabi. I went to a top 50 LAC. Maybe they were doing "cutting edge" stuff or something. That said not every professor used them for certain.

I had already graduated from college by the mid 80's.

[Julie Smith]

I don't remember many details. 

 

But I do remember taking accounting, because I liked the teacher very much due to the fact she was very organized. She had everything planned out and written out before the first class. 

 

When I taught college I was the same way. 

[FaithManor]

I had already graduated from college by the mid 80's.

Ahhhh

[TravelingChris]

We did not have syllabi. I think the only class where we got information about what we were going to do was AP English. Every other class, it was either we are doing the book or here is the next book we are reading. I think that sometimes they did talk about how much different things counted but am not really sure. I am of an older generation than many of you (tail end baby boomer) and it was just the expectation that we would do the work. I was a top student even though I did not know beforehand how much given things were worth. I just tried to do my best. So did most of the kids. I do remember that my geometry teacher who was a retired Naval officer was really interested in having us learn and would let us work any problems we did wrong on a test and if we did them right, we would get half credit on that problem. Our course descriptions were just titles normally. I spent ninth grade in a junior high and them 10-12th in a public high school. Even in college, some of the classes did not have syllabi, I think,

 

As to class choices- every year I took English, some social science, some science class,a math class and a foreign language class. That left me with one free period in which to choose a class after 10th grade (we had mandatory gym until 10th). So I did take journalism, drama, and economics and psychology.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I will be 40 in December.  So, yes, much younger than having graduated college in the mid 80s.   I graduated college in 2000....which sounds young to me even, but when I realize that it's 2017....it's still just 3yrs shy of 20 yrs ago.   I graduated high school in 1996.  I clearly recall rubrics and study guides and syllabi from my high school, and even the occasional middle school class.

 

 

 

Of course I don't give my DD8 a rubric for for putting away dishes, that's silly.  For one thing, I don't GRADE my kids at home.  Part of the deal of a "rubric" is to provide a mathematical calculation of the student's abilities.  Because in a school, EVERYTHING is a mathematical calculation.  It's actually part of the reason I pulled my kids OUT. 

 

But, when I pulled my kids into the kitchen to teach them how to unload the dishwasher (a chore I am actually straight up in the middle of teaching my DD8 and DD6 together) the first thing I did was show them where everything goes.  Plates go in this cabinet, Pots go in this cabinet, forks go in this section, spoons in this section etc.  That IS, in terms of a homelife....a rubric.  It's a clearly laid out definition of the goals of unloading the dishwasher.  It's not a GRADE....cause I am not giving one.  But it lays out exactly what the objectives are.  Because after I have SHOWED the kids how to put the dishes away, what the process is, I turn around and watch them (aka evaluate) put the dishes away.  Then, I come back and explain,  "Ok, I showed you plates go here and mugs go here....you put Daddy's coffee mug on the counter."  That IS the assessment of the rubric of "X and Y and Z are expected of you in this task."  I don't NEED to tell my kids that a mug left on the counter takes off X points...........cause I don't give them in life.  Points are an artificial construct meant to be an objective representation of what the kids learned.  And in that environment, giving that information upfront is important IMO. 

 

I should stress again that there is nothing wrong with rubrics or syllabi or study guides.  I do remember one over achiever in high school who made his own study guides.  I would help him to study using it right before the test and then we would go in and get the same grade.  Drove him absolutely nuts but he had a crush on me so he kept letting me do it.  ;)  My point was that depending on time and place, not everyone had the exact same high school experience with the same expectations or educational organization.  That doesn't mean that we didn't have good teachers.  And it doesn't mean that they weren't organized.  It just meant that different things were understood than might be understood now in this day and age.  And the organizational methods might be different. 

 

Someone up thread asked about how you would know which paper to put more effort into.  It just seemed to come naturally to us that a one page paper would not require as much effort as the ten page research paper.  I don't mean that to be snarky.  But it was really that simple. 

 

In my high school at least, we learned to write in essay form so that all of our tests had essay questions that were half or full page answers.  And you couldn't just write fragments either.  They were to be organized answers with a thesis paragraph and your argument set out in order.  Or we had oral exams that required spoken answers that were also organized the same way.  I'm sure the teacher knew how many points each question was worth but we didn't.  We just sat there and wrote (or spoke) as fast as we could while trying to get it in the correct format. 

 

 

[scoutingmom]

If I had done "my very best" on every single assignment in my high school career, I would have literally gone nuts. The workload was astounding. There was just no way I could put 100% into every math homework, every set of reading questions, every paper, every book. I mean, with three reading heavy courses, I had to read more than a book a week at times. The volume of writing was very high. I remember an infamously work heavy history course that had an essay, a quiz, two chapters of reading, a lengthy outline, and a group project due every single week. Some weeks, you just had to say screw it and cut corners, even though you knew it would cost you on the quiz.

 

I think there's strongly something to be said for deliberate assignments where every assignment is really worth 100% of your time. And that's something I think schools have really gotten away from. And there's a real danger in kids gaming out the grading system to slack off.

 

On the other hand, that too much work course was an AP class. The AP test was like a joke by the time we took it. We all thought it was absurdly easy. So the cram, cram, cram mentality did something too. And a good teacher will weight things well and structure a class so that students *both* know what's going on because that's only fair to them and doesn't allow for getting out of doing the important work.

 

I have a real hard heart for teachers who give unfair grades. When I was in high school, there was a class I went from a B to a D in because the teacher weighted homework as 20% of the grade. She only gave one homework assignment the entire semester. And I forgot it (no surprise - we never had homework!). And she refused to let me turn it in late. So that was that. I just think... sure, that wasn't my very best. But that's not really fair. And not knowing the stakes ahead of time (it was a rare thing at my school to not know... this teacher... she was a real piece of work... she ended up having a nervous breakdown the following year) made it just impossible. I decided to purposefully fail the following semester. It made her batty. She really freaked out.

Well, I was in I.B. and before signing up for I.B. there was a prospective student and parent meeting in which they discussed how 4 to 5 hours of homework per night was common. I did my best on each assignment. The kids in my class were mostly competing for highest marks awards for the year. Not sure what to tell you.

 

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[scoutingmom]

 

 

Now that's in the lower grades. As applied to tests in 8th grade Earth Science, if a teacher hands out a review sheet/study guide for the unit test on Friday, that review sheet should tell kids exactly what it is they are being assessed on. If a kid is going to be assessed on whether or not he knows the difference between lava and magma, he should know that. If he's going to be assessed on the difference between igneous and sedimentary rock, he should know that. There are a wide range of Earth Science topics that can be covered in a year, and which ones are the important ones and which ones aren't (for that particular class/year) should be communicated to the student. And idealy, if you are going to be issuing a unit assessment at the end of the unit of plate tectonics, it's good to tell kids ahead of time that they are going to cover the layers of the Earth, hot spots, etc etc, because at the end of the unit, this is what they should know.

 

But will this be on the test?

 

 

Honestly, I always learned stuff so I would know it for me... not for the test. Maybe that is why my marks were so high. I never crammed for tests either.

 

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[frogger]

I didn't know what a syllabus was until college. Some teachers would give you a break down of how much each type of assignment would count towards your grades, some wouldn't. Some would say something was due and liking to get things done and over with I would finish or have mostly done an assignment and it would change. It was annoying but I didn't know that school could be different. 

 

 

[Farrar]

Well, I was in I.B. and before signing up for I.B. there was a prospective student and parent meeting in which they discussed how 4 to 5 hours of homework per night was common. I did my best on each assignment. The kids in my class were mostly competing for highest marks awards for the year. Not sure what to tell you.

 

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Yeah, so that's roughly 8 hours of class time. 5 of homework. Plus most kids have an activity or two on most days that takes at least 2 or 3 more hours. So sixteen hours of scheduled time, nearly all of it working. For teens who need roughly 8-10 hours of sleep a night. Math.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed your life like that.

 

Honestly, there was many, many an assignment that I had in school that could get an A without doing "my best." I really want to push back on this idea that our best is really required all the time or even desirable most of the time. My best is cooking Thanksgiving dinner that will make your mouth water for days. My best is writing that takes hours and hours of time but comes out pretty good if I do say so myself. My best is a house that's clean enough for the in-laws at any moment. My best is a several hour hike or making myself do the blue level on the climbing ropes. But none of these are things I actually think have to be done every day. It's okay if the house is tidy but lived in. It's okay if I cook a decent dinner that doesn't take hours. It's fine if I don't re-edit this throwaway forum post for absolute perfection. It's enough if I just make myself take a walk and do a little yoga. That's how life is lived.

 

We live our "good enough" lives most of the time. Doing a good job, but not an exceptional one. And sometimes, we choose to bake complicated cakes, push ourselves to hike a mountain, plan an elaborate dinner party, write a curriculum that's worth selling, plan a co-op class that involves elaborate science projects. Sometimes. And there's joy in that. But living life that way all the time is exhausting.

 

And when people come on this forum and say that they feel guilty that they didn't keep the house perfectly clean, that they didn't plan a field trip as exciting as the one the school kids were taking that day, that they haven't done enough "cool" history and science projects that get the kids dressing up and cooking and building complex models, we assuage their guilt. "But I could do it if only I could make myself!" Except, honestly, we know they can't. Because our best for every little thing would kill us. And realistically, I think we know that. Yet we tell our kids that they should do their absolute best on everything? School is no different.

 

You can turn in an essay with extra citations, revised half a dozen times, that you did additional reading for, and went to the library for, and just wrote your heart out for... but if it's a daily assignment throwaway grade that the teacher's expectations were that you'd dash off quickly that evening, then your "best" was gravely misplaced. Learning is process as well as product. And that process does not require that we produce our best products all the time in order to learn.

[Bootsie]

I will be 40 in December.  So, yes, much younger than having graduated college in the mid 80s.   I graduated college in 2000....which sounds young to me even, but when I realize that it's 2017....it's still just 3yrs shy of 20 yrs ago.   I graduated high school in 1996.  I clearly recall rubrics and study guides and syllabi from my high school, and even the occasional middle school class.

 

 

 

Of course I don't give my DD8 a rubric for for putting away dishes, that's silly.  For one thing, I don't GRADE my kids at home.  Part of the deal of a "rubric" is to provide a mathematical calculation of the student's abilities.  Because in a school, EVERYTHING is a mathematical calculation.  It's actually part of the reason I pulled my kids OUT. 

 

But, when I pulled my kids into the kitchen to teach them how to unload the dishwasher (a chore I am actually straight up in the middle of teaching my DD8 and DD6 together) the first thing I did was show them where everything goes.  Plates go in this cabinet, Pots go in this cabinet, forks go in this section, spoons in this section etc.  That IS, in terms of a homelife....a rubric.  It's a clearly laid out definition of the goals of unloading the dishwasher.  It's not a GRADE....cause I am not giving one.  But it lays out exactly what the objectives are.  Because after I have SHOWED the kids how to put the dishes away, what the process is, I turn around and watch them (aka evaluate) put the dishes away.  Then, I come back and explain,  "Ok, I showed you plates go here and mugs go here....you put Daddy's coffee mug on the counter."  That IS the assessment of the rubric of "X and Y and Z are expected of you in this task."  I don't NEED to tell my kids that a mug left on the counter takes off X points...........cause I don't give them in life.  Points are an artificial construct meant to be an objective representation of what the kids learned.  And in that environment, giving that information upfront is important IMO. 

 

I think we are using the word rubric in different ways.  To me, a rubric is more of a measuring tool which provides weighting of different components of a task and examples of different levels of mastery.  That would be different that what I consider the goals or objectives of something to be.

 

[kitten18]

Yeah, so that's roughly 8 hours of class time. 5 of homework. Plus most kids have an activity or two on most days that takes at least 2 or 3 more hours. So sixteen hours of scheduled time, nearly all of it working. For teens who need roughly 8-10 hours of sleep a night. Math.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed your life like that.

 

Honestly, there was many, many an assignment that I had in school that could get an A without doing "my best." I really want to push back on this idea that our best is really required all the time or even desirable most of the time. My best is cooking Thanksgiving dinner that will make your mouth water for days. My best is writing that takes hours and hours of time but comes out pretty good if I do say so myself. My best is a house that's clean enough for the in-laws at any moment. My best is a several hour hike or making myself do the blue level on the climbing ropes. But none of these are things I actually think have to be done every day. It's okay if the house is tidy but lived in. It's okay if I cook a decent dinner that doesn't take hours. It's fine if I don't re-edit this throwaway forum post for absolute perfection. It's enough if I just make myself take a walk and do a little yoga. That's how life is lived.

 

We live our "good enough" lives most of the time. Doing a good job, but not an exceptional one. And sometimes, we choose to bake complicated cakes, push ourselves to hike a mountain, plan an elaborate dinner party, write a curriculum that's worth selling, plan a co-op class that involves elaborate science projects. Sometimes. And there's joy in that. But living life that way all the time is exhausting.

 

And when people come on this forum and say that they feel guilty that they didn't keep the house perfectly clean, that they didn't plan a field trip as exciting as the one the school kids were taking that day, that they haven't done enough "cool" history and science projects that get the kids dressing up and cooking and building complex models, we assuage their guilt. "But I could do it if only I could make myself!" Except, honestly, we know they can't. Because our best for every little thing would kill us. And realistically, I think we know that. Yet we tell our kids that they should do their absolute best on everything? School is no different.

 

You can turn in an essay with extra citations, revised half a dozen times, that you did additional reading for, and went to the library for, and just wrote your heart out for... but if it's a daily assignment throwaway grade that the teacher's expectations were that you'd dash off quickly that evening, then your "best" was gravely misplaced. Learning is process as well as product. And that process does not require that we produce our best products all the time in order to learn.

I love this so much. All of it. â¤ï¸

[bolt.]

Once I did "rubric" my 11 year old as a parenting thing, about morning routines. It was kind of enlightening for both of us. Plus, just saying, "Good for you! You earned a four!" -- is totally free and easy as a 'reward' structure.

Edited May 17, 2017 by bolt.

[Jean in Newcastle]

. And that process does not require that we produce our best products all the time in order to learn.

For brevity's sake I snipped all but the last sentence. I wasn't the person who said do your absolute best. But I did start off this general thought by saying that I didn't understand picking and choosing assignments. In my mind part of a general good work ethic is doing all that you are assigned. And I will grant you doing it "well enough ". But "well enough " still requires some effort and not half assing it. (I know that isn't polite language but I can't think of a more polite synonym. ).

[scoutingmom]

 

 

Yeah, so that's roughly 8 hours of class time. 5 of homework. Plus most kids have an activity or two on most days that takes at least 2 or 3 more hours. So sixteen hours of scheduled time, nearly all of it working. For teens who need roughly 8-10 hours of sleep a night. Math.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed your life like that.

 

 

Hm, I say I did my best on everything and so did my friend (and those competing for top awards), and you tell me how rigorus and homework filled your high school program was. I indicate that I also did a rigorus program and that creates a response like that?

 

Yes, I enjoyed my life. I also was an air cadet, earned the flying scholarship (very few did), and other honours. I was also better at being efficient than average. If your best requires 10 revisions, you are doing it wrong.

 

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[Jean in Newcastle]

Some people have to work harder than others. Nothing wrong with that.

 

 

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[Word Nerd]

I don't know about generational.  The idea of kids who didn't do what they were supposed to in school goes back a long way.  Farmer Boy comes to mind right now.  The idea that kids in high school sometimes fail to do their homework isn't exactly new to 2017.

 

The idea that it's objectionable to say good students complete all assigned work and that teachers should be obligated to provide rubrics so students can decide which assignments to skip is pretty novel. 

[Bluegoat]

For brevity's sake I snipped all but the last sentence. I wasn't the person who said do your absolute best. But I did start off this general thought by saying that I didn't understand picking and choosing assignments. In my mind part of a general good work ethic is doing all that you are assigned. And I will grant you doing it "well enough ". But "well enough " still requires some effort and not half assing it. (I know that isn't polite language but I can't think of a more polite synonym. ).

 

I suspect when some people say "do your best" it means within the context of the assignent. 

[Farrar]

Hm, I say I did my best on everything and so did my friend (and those competing for top awards), and you tell me how rigorus and homework filled your high school program was. I indicate that I also did a rigorus program and that creates a response like that?

 

Yes, I enjoyed my life. I also was an air cadet, earned the flying scholarship (very few did), and other honours. I was also better at being efficient than average. If your best requires 10 revisions, you are doing it wrong.

 

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If your best can be dashed off in ten minutes, you're probably fooling yourself that it's your best, even if it is getting you the grades you want.

[Farrar]

I suspect when some people say "do your best" it means within the context of the assignent. 

 

But then we're back to the original topic. If the teachers don't tell you the context of the assignment, how do you know which assignments are just for processing information and which ones are meant to be huge, culminating works?

[Jean in Newcastle]

If your best can be dashed off in ten minutes, you're probably fooling yourself that it's your best, even if it is getting you the grades you want.

Why are you being so rigid about this? I'm not Scouting Mom but I was happy if I got A's on my work. I count that as "my best" even if I could keep working on it. I was able to get A's on papers without multiple rewrites. In fact, my friend and I used to make things more interesting by setting our own parameters for assignments. I remember when we challenged each other to write "A" papers using a nursery rhyme as an opening. I used "Humpty Dumpty" for a paper on King Lear. I got my A. So did she, though I can't remember what nursery rhyme she used.

 

Anyway... I didn't need a syllabus to give me the details of an assignment. The teacher wrote the assignment on the blackboard (this was prior to chalkboards or whiteboards). It told us how long the paper was supposed to be and the basics on what the topic should be. We didn't need to know how many points we would get for correct grammar or spelling- it was understood that our work needed to be proofread.

 

Isn't that what this thread is about? If a very narrow definition of classroom organization is necessary? But it isn't no matter what your classroom experience was like. Other people have their own experiences. And they are equally valid. Which means that your experience is valid too, of course. But it isn't the benchmark by which everyone else needs to measure their experience.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Why are you being so rigid about this? I'm not Scouting Mom but I was happy if I got A's on my work. I count that as "my best" even if I could keep working on it. I was able to get A's on papers without multiple rewrites.

 

I know why Farrar is being so rigid about this - what you're saying here is what I was talking about earlier, but I felt I said it too poorly so I deleted it:

 

If "my best" means "the teacher gave me an A" then that is not a definition of "best" that some people's personal ethics will allow. To some of us, "my best" means "I left it all on the field; I could do no better."

 

Pleasing others (or being compared to others and found the best of the day), and personal satisfaction in a job done to one's own highest ability are VERY different things.

[EmseB]

Getting an A on something is hardly synonymous with doing one's best. If that's the criteria, then I think several of us are talking about different things.

[EmseB]

The idea that it's objectionable to say good students complete all assigned work and that teachers should be obligated to provide rubrics so students can decide which assignments to skip is pretty novel.

Luckily that's a complete strawman.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I know why Farrar is being so rigid about this - what you're saying here is what I was talking about earlier, but I felt I said it too poorly so I deleted it:

 

If "my best" means "the teacher gave me an A" then that is not a definition of "best" that some people's personal ethics will allow. To some of us, "my best" means "I left it all on the field; I could do no better."

 

Pleasing others (or being compared to others and found the best of the day), and personal satisfaction in a job done to one's own highest ability are VERY different things.

I never found brick and mortar school- whether high school or college- to give me much personal satisfaction. I did well. I was top of my university class. But it was an academic game for me. I don't know how I could have done better in an academic sense. But my personal "leave it all on the table " best? Nope. I was in high school because I had to be. I was in college to get a degree. Personal satisfaction never entered into it. Personal satisfaction came later once I was out of the academic arena.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Then you agree with Farrar, Jean, that nobody can or does operate at top capacity - "best" - all the time at school!

[Word Nerd]

 .

Edited May 18, 2017 by Word Nerd

[Jean in Newcastle]

Then you agree with Farrar, Jean, that nobody can or does operate at top capacity - "best" - all the time at school!

Sure. I already said to her previously that "well enough " was good enough. But I agree with Bluegoat ( I think) who said that "doing your best" means doing your best in the context of the assignment.

[scoutingmom]

 

 

If your best can be dashed off in ten minutes, you're probably fooling yourself that it's your best, even if it is getting you the grades you want.

You keep talking extremes. I never said I only took 10 minutes, and I never said that I would do 10 revisions on each paper. My best was in between those extremes.

 

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