What to do about cheating

[borninthesouth]

My daughter began homeschooling in 6th grade.  Up until then she had been in public school.  She was always a decent student, but more from raw ability than from hard work.  Math has always been hard for her.  She began looking up all the answers on her math work that year.  I had 4 kids and would work with her, but assumed all was well.  I caught her cheating one day and she swore never to do it again and I believed her.  Then it happened again in Algebra.  She was not memorizing how to do the problems, but just looking in the book to do what they did.  When you took the book away she would get a 2/20 on her test.  She did the same thing-- I will never do it again-- tears, self hate-- how can you love me...  Then it happened a second time in Algebra.  Ugh!   I was much stricter after that.  I was constantly checking on her. The last time she seemed truly repentant.  Then this year, her freshman year, she just admitted to cheating on 4 tests.  It was minor from what she says-- one problem on each test. I was pretty vigilant about watching her, but if she wants to cheat she will find a way to do it.  She did come to me and admit everything and is so upset.  She says she can't help herself.  She is very compulsive.   If I give her a 0 on the tests she cheated on she will fail both classes.  She now has a very shaky math base-- especially in Algebra.  There are a host of other problems too. When I go do activities with my other kids she stays home and watches youtube instead of getting work done.  I have told her that she will have to go everywhere with us now.  I have taken away her phone until further notice.  I should have been more vigilant, but I trusted her.  I told her trust is very slow to build back.  Any thing more that I could do?  Any summer Algebra programs or brush ups?  Any advice?  I am considering putting her back in public school... But, it would be a punishment because she REALLY doesn't want to go.  But, I feel like I have lost control and I don't know what to do.  She has a lot of anxiety, but I think a lot of that comes from these bad choices.   I don't really have many close friends, so I really just needed a sounding board.  Thanks  :)

Edited March 14, 2017 by borninthesouth

[maize]

There is no reason she would not cheat in public school, so I don't see how that would help with anything.

 

When a kid is doing something impulsively that goes against their own conscience I don't think punishment helps. Punishment is supposed to be motivational, but she already doesn't want to do it and is disappointed with herself when she does.

 

There are a couple of things I would investigate as they may be contributing to this issue. 

 

1) That shaky math base--you may need to go back well before algebra to address whatever is causing her trouble. A kid who understands and can do the work doesn't need to cheat. So--she doesn't understand. You might investigate learning disabilities, but in the meantime it can't hurt to go back several levels and make sure the foundation is solid. Fractions are often a sticky point when kids struggle with algebra--that, and solid conceptual understanding of numbers and operations and their relationships.

 

2) Sounds like there may be some executive function difficulties--giving in to impulse. Have you noticed difficulties with focus, initiating tasks, completing tasks, maintaining order and organization in her life? To some extent that is age normal, but some kids struggle a lot more than others. I have kids diagnosed ADHD but also one who came up with some fairly severe executive function deficits in neuropsych evaluations without meeting the criteria for ADHD. You might look into resources for parents to help kids who struggle with these issues, with or without a diagnosis. This site is a good place to start: https://www.understood.org/en

Here are a couple of books that may be useful:

https://smile.amazon.com/Smart-but-Scattered-Teens-Executive/dp/1609182294/ref=pd_sim_14_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1609182294&pd_rd_r=FCK565GS8X4HPRRAYNT2&pd_rd_w=wR8Mq&pd_rd_wg=D58DU&psc=1&refRID=FCK565GS8X4HPRRAYNT2

https://www.amazon.com/That-Crumpled-Paper-Last-Week-ebook/dp/B0030CHF0I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1489499778&sr=8-1&keywords=crumpled+paper

[maize]

Oh, one more thought: 

 

You said "she is not memorizing how to do the problems"; I don't think that memorizing how to do problems should ever be the goal of math instruction. Understanding conceptually removes the need for memorization. Practice of course is important, but without the conceptual basis a person will always be mathematically handicapped.

 

Is she trying to learn math out of a book on her own? It is unusual for a child to be able to do this well. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Why not remove the ability for her to cheat?  Copy the test page and don't let her have the book.

 

I realize this does not solve the bigger problem, but I'm confused as to why you haven't taken at least that step. 

[maize]

Every time I re-read your post something else stands out to me. Your last bit about anxiety coming from bad choices--that is not how most anxiety works. Anxiety will make a person beat themselves up over mistakes and failures, but...we all make mistakes and beating ourselves up is not a helpful response. I have a couple more books to recommend that may help both you and her:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Mindset-Psychology-Carol-S-Dweck-ebook/dp/B000FCKPHG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1489500257&sr=8-1&keywords=mindset

 

https://www.amazon.com/Gifts-Imperfection-Think-Supposed-Embrace-ebook/dp/B00BS03LL6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1489500284&sr=8-3&keywords=brene+brown

 

If anxiety is severe to that point that it is preventing her from living her life fully I recommend seeking mental health services.

 

Are you Christian? Somewhere around here I have a book by a Christian author that addresses some of these same issues from a biblical perspective. Let me know if you are interested and I will see if I can locate it; I can't remember the title right now.

[Guest]

On top of everything else suggested so far, I would give her a placement test from another math program (or two) and see where she is. I think you are facing multiple issues. So to start with the simplest, placement test her and see where she's weak. I am going through shaky Algebra with a 14 yo right now myself and we're having to back up. WAY up, because memorizing how to do the steps doesn't get them very far for very long if they don't have a firm understanding of the concepts behind it. 

 

Separating and identifying the individual issues might make is slightly less daunting to come up with a game plan for each. 

[Loesje22000]

Dd cheated a lot this year.

She became completely overwhelmed by the higher expectations.

She cheated all over the place.

 

Some things we did:

- all teacher manuals and answer keys are locked up now

- all work has to be handwritten now (so she can't copy paste from the internet)

- when working on the computer / internet/ laptop is unavoidable I must be able to see her screen

- all the work she cheated on had to be done over, as it was - after all - not her own work she turned in.

 

We talked a lot.

About plagiate, about honesty and integrety, about asking help in time.

She talks sometimes about the temptation to do it again, but talking about it helps her to do not so.

And it helps to ask for help.

 

These and other sanctions are for the remainder of the schoolyear (until July 1st).

[SparklyUnicorn]

Another thing I might try is to completely downplay the idea of "test".  Explain you have to figure out if she got the material or not.  Maybe offer that she has the opportunity to correct errors after the fact to boost the grade (if you insist on official tests).  This might be nicer than the real world, but since you have the liberty to do it, why not do it?  I care most about my kid learning the material.  I didn't even really test him.  I sometimes wondered if this would mess him up in the "real world", but it so far has not at all. 

 

 

[Julie of KY]

Agreeing with the above.

 

Putting her in public school won't solve the problem at all. If PS is what you need to do for your family, then that's fine, but I think it's a bad decision as a reaction to this situation.

 

I agree with backing way up on math. Obviously she doesn't understand the math. If the fundamentals are shaky, then she'll never be able to move on. It's not a punishment to back up, it's just what she needs to learn. Also, I'd remove any ability to cheat if possible. Have her do it in a room that you can watch her if needed. Copy the page out of the book so she can't look up answers. Don't allow her access to a computer. Give her work that she SHOULD be able to do to start with. Make the goal to realize if she can do the problem and to ask for help if she can't. Simply knowing which problems you can or can't do goes a long ways to learning the work correctly. Do a lot of the work buddy-style where you sit next to her and work together. In this way she can get instant feedback and you can figure out better where she is struggling.

 

This is based on the assumption that it sounds like she's cheating because she doesn't understand the material. This is different that the student that mostly understands but cheats to finish quicker or so not to miss a single problem.

 

 

 

 

[AMJ]

My daughter began homeschooling in 6th grade.  Up until then she had been in public school.  She was always a decent student, but more from raw ability than from hard work.  Math has always been hard for her.  She began looking up all the answers on her math work that year.  I had 4 kids and would work with her, but assumed all was well.  I caught her cheating one day and she swore never to do it again and I believed her.  Then it happened again in Algebra.  She was not memorizing how to do the problems, but just looking in the book to do what they did.  When you took the book away she would get a 2/20 on her test.  She did the same thing-- I will never do it again-- tears, self hate-- how can you love me...  Then it happened a second time in Algebra.  Ugh!   I was much stricter after that.  I was constantly checking on her. The last time she seemed truly repentant.  Then this year, her freshman year, she just admitted to cheating on 4 tests.  It was minor from what she says-- one problem on each test. I was pretty vigilant about watching her, but if she wants to cheat she will find a way to do it.  She did come to me and admit everything and is so upset.  She says she can't help herself.  She is very compulsive.   If I give her a 0 on the tests she cheated on she will fail both classes.  She now has a very shaky math base-- especially in Algebra.  There are a host of other problems too. When I go do activities with my other kids she stays home and watches youtube instead of getting work done.  I have told her that she will have to go everywhere with us now.  I have taken away her phone until further notice.  I should have been more vigilant, but I trusted her.  I told her trust is very slow to build back.  Any thing more that I could do?  Any summer Algebra programs or brush ups?  Any advice?  I am considering putting her back in public school... But, it would be a punishment because she REALLY doesn't want to go.  But, I feel like I have lost control and I don't know what to do.  She has a lot of anxiety, but I think a lot of that comes from these bad choices.   I don't really have many close friends, so I really just needed a sounding board.  Thanks  :)

 

 

For the math component you might want to try Derek Owens or some other online self-paced math class.  We are using DO for the first time this school year -- I or the girls can access and print out the lessons, practice problems, practice problem solutions, homework, and exams.  The kids then do the homework or tests and email a scanned image or photo of their work to the teachers, who then grade it and send back the graded and marked homework and tests.  There are online videos to go with every lesson, and the teachers are quite good about responding to appeals for further explanation or assistance.

 

One of my kids is largely let-her-at-it-and-let-her-run, but the other requires a bit more direct instruction, especially during allergy seasons.  I usually check their work before it gets sent off so I can go over anything they simply aren't getting.  This also lets me determine when allergy-brain is hitting (when this happens I give extra days to get certain work done, since allergies hit us HARD).

 

It sounds like your DD might learn better by seeing plenty of examples of actual problems worked out.  Check Khan Academy and other websites, and YouTube, for more demonstrations of sample problems being worked through to completion.  Being able to sit down with someone knowledgeable in the topic and going step by step (repeatedly) can help, especially if they can explain the benefits of doing things certain ways and how to tell when doing things another way would be equally valid (and when not).  If there isn't a IRL person she could use for this the videos can be a decent substitute.

 

If you can perhaps signing up your DD with Kumon or another tutoring agency over the summer might be beneficial.  She can have personal attention from someone knowledgeable in the subject, someone who is not Mom (so teen desire for independence might not be much of an issue), someone who might know several different approaches for presenting the material.  Such agencies see a LOT of kids having difficulties with math, and might know some strategies to help your DD.

[AEC]

She was always a decent student, but more from raw ability than from hard work.  Math has always been hard for her.  

 

Then it happened again in Algebra.  She was not memorizing how to do the problems, but just looking in the book to do what they did.

 

She has a lot of anxiety, but I think a lot of that comes from these bad choices.

this is tough.

 

I'm reading A LOT into the above...but I'm going to speculate that she has high expectations of herself (and possibly from others) but hasn't learned the mental discipline necessary to meet those expectations.  YouTube while you're gone also suggests lack of mental discipline to take a future deadline and make it motivation to deal with RIGHT NOW.

 

She ends up getting stuck, not being able to meet those high expectations and, feeling desperate, resorts to cheating to meet them.

 

If so...I feel for you, and I've seen this movie.

 

Some things you can do that might help:

 

1) back off a bit from 'testing/grading' for awhile...make it clear, especially in the math, that the goal is to learn and understand.  If she doesn't know how to do a problem she should mark it as such, skip it, then ASK how....and you'll go through it with her.

 

2) go back to algebra.  She shouldn't be memorizing how to do problems.  With the exception of some basics (what's an exponent, order of operations) there's very little to 'memorize'.  What she wants/needs is to understand the why - to know how to think it through.  What text are you using?  And for the algebra...you really do have to spend however long it does take to understand it before you can move on.  Algebra is just that fundamental.

 

3) remove the immediate ability to cheat - make it require work.  When she's doing the work there shouldn't be an ability to look up anything in the book.  If the problems are in the book and the answers are in the back, photocopy the workpage.  Cut our the answer pages and you keep them, etc.

 

4) set short-term deadlines.  It's much harder to exercise mental discipline when the deadline/goal is far away.  Break it down...in the next 1 hour, you need to get XXX done.   She'll have to start small and work up.

 

5) try not to be too hard on her w/ the trust issue.  I suspect she's doing what she feels like she has to do in the moment to resolve the stressful conflict in her head ('I am supposed to be smart.  I have to know how to do this and get a good grade.  I have no idea how to do this...PANIC')...not that she's trying to deceive you or get away with something.  See if you can coach her out of that mental conversation and talk through what kind of 'out' she should have when she finds herself in that position.

 

 

 

<warm thoughts>

 

 

 

[borninthesouth]

Why not remove the ability for her to cheat?  Copy the test page and don't let her have the book.

 

I realize this does not solve the bigger problem, but I'm confused as to why you haven't taken at least that step. 

 

 

I do this sometimes, but with so many kids and so much going on sometimes I forget.  I guess I will have to be more diligent.  

[borninthesouth]

Dd cheated a lot this year.

She became completely overwhelmed by the higher expectations.

She cheated all over the place.

 

Some things we did:

- all teacher manuals and answer keys are locked up now

- all work has to be handwritten now (so she can't copy paste from the internet)

- when working on the computer / internet/ laptop is unavoidable I must be able to see her screen

- all the work she cheated on had to be done over, as it was - after all - not her own work she turned in.

 

We talked a lot.

About plagiate, about honesty and integrety, about asking help in time.

She talks sometimes about the temptation to do it again, but talking about it helps her to do not so.

And it helps to ask for help.

 

These and other sanctions are for the remainder of the schoolyear (until July 1st).

Thank you.  This was extremely helpful.  

[borninthesouth]

For the math component you might want to try Derek Owens or some other online self-paced math class.  We are using DO for the first time this school year -- I or the girls can access and print out the lessons, practice problems, practice problem solutions, homework, and exams.  The kids then do the homework or tests and email a scanned image or photo of their work to the teachers, who then grade it and send back the graded and marked homework and tests.  There are online videos to go with every lesson, and the teachers are quite good about responding to appeals for further explanation or assistance.

 

One of my kids is largely let-her-at-it-and-let-her-run, but the other requires a bit more direct instruction, especially during allergy seasons.  I usually check their work before it gets sent off so I can go over anything they simply aren't getting.  This also lets me determine when allergy-brain is hitting (when this happens I give extra days to get certain work done, since allergies hit us HARD).

 

It sounds like your DD might learn better by seeing plenty of examples of actual problems worked out.  Check Khan Academy and other websites, and YouTube, for more demonstrations of sample problems being worked through to completion.  Being able to sit down with someone knowledgeable in the topic and going step by step (repeatedly) can help, especially if they can explain the benefits of doing things certain ways and how to tell when doing things another way would be equally valid (and when not).  If there isn't a IRL person she could use for this the videos can be a decent substitute.

 

If you can perhaps signing up your DD with Kumon or another tutoring agency over the summer might be beneficial.  She can have personal attention from someone knowledgeable in the subject, someone who is not Mom (so teen desire for independence might not be much of an issue), someone who might know several different approaches for presenting the material.  Such agencies see a LOT of kids having difficulties with math, and might know some strategies to help your DD.

Yes, we do Khan Academy and have a tutor come over or go to her house about once a week.  I think there is a little bit of she doesn't understand and little bit of lazy going on.  Thank you.  :)  

[borninthesouth]

this is tough.

 

I'm reading A LOT into the above...but I'm going to speculate that she has high expectations of herself (and possibly from others) but hasn't learned the mental discipline necessary to meet those expectations.  YouTube while you're gone also suggests lack of mental discipline to take a future deadline and make it motivation to deal with RIGHT NOW.

 

She ends up getting stuck, not being able to meet those high expectations and, feeling desperate, resorts to cheating to meet them.

 

If so...I feel for you, and I've seen this movie.

 

Some things you can do that might help:

 

1) back off a bit from 'testing/grading' for awhile...make it clear, especially in the math, that the goal is to learn and understand.  If she doesn't know how to do a problem she should mark it as such, skip it, then ASK how....and you'll go through it with her.

 

2) go back to algebra.  She shouldn't be memorizing how to do problems.  With the exception of some basics (what's an exponent, order of operations) there's very little to 'memorize'.  What she wants/needs is to understand the why - to know how to think it through.  What text are you using?  And for the algebra...you really do have to spend however long it does take to understand it before you can move on.  Algebra is just that fundamental.

 

3) remove the immediate ability to cheat - make it require work.  When she's doing the work there shouldn't be an ability to look up anything in the book.  If the problems are in the book and the answers are in the back, photocopy the workpage.  Cut our the answer pages and you keep them, etc.

 

4) set short-term deadlines.  It's much harder to exercise mental discipline when the deadline/goal is far away.  Break it down...in the next 1 hour, you need to get XXX done.   She'll have to start small and work up.

 

5) try not to be too hard on her w/ the trust issue.  I suspect she's doing what she feels like she has to do in the moment to resolve the stressful conflict in her head ('I am supposed to be smart.  I have to know how to do this and get a good grade.  I have no idea how to do this...PANIC')...not that she's trying to deceive you or get away with something.  See if you can coach her out of that mental conversation and talk through what kind of 'out' she should have when she finds herself in that position.

 

 

 

<warm thoughts>

This is it exactly. One clarification-- memorize is the wrong word. I have the flu and with all this I am not thinking super clearly.  She needs to understand concepts, memorize definitions and learn formulas.  These are a good start.  I will think through what to do now and go from there.  

[maize]

Yes, we do Khan Academy and have a tutor come over or go to her house about once a week.  I think there is a little bit of she doesn't understand and little bit of lazy going on.  Thank you.   :)

 

If she is getting 2/20 on a test I think it is safe to assume that there is a lot of not understanding going on, and there is a good chance that some of that not understanding is left over from prior years and that she needs to get a solid foundation in pre-algebra skills including arithmetic.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

First, this is not a problem that is unique to your house.  It happens with many teens.  The difficulty level of school is ramping up, it seems more consequential (ie, something they could fail), and they may be struggling with impulse control and deferring gratification.

 

At the same time, parents are often distracted by trying to keep up with several children or thinking that at this age the kid should be working independently.  It can make for a bad combination.  

 

You know at this point that if she has the opportunity to cheat, it will be a strong temptation.  Take steps to remove temptations. At our house that meant only working on a computer in public areas, with the screen visible, not in the basement or a bedroom.  Separate answer keys and solutions from the books she has access to.  Limit the amount of time she is home alone.  She may need to spend a season going with you a lot.  My kids did not have phones with internet ability as young teens.  Instead they had pay as you go flip phones so they could be in contact.  Or we issued out a phone when they left the house and it went back into a kitchen drawer between events.  You may need to investigate changing internet passwords or setting up access with time restrictions.

 

I also had to discipline MYSELF more to be there during school time, not on the computer or otherwise distracted.  It wasn't my preference, but it was necessary.  

 

I agree with others that part of the temptation is a sense that she doesn't know what to do in the math.  I would recommend that math go back to being a topic that is done with you at her elbow, rather than something she does independently.  That might mean you sit with her as she does every problem.  It might mean that you are doing each problem at the same time.  It might mean that she does the work on a big white board and explains her steps as you watch and give on the spot correction.  If what you have been doing isn't working, stop doing it that way.

 

I learned to knit so I would have something to do with my hands while I monitored my kids school work.  I donate hats and scarves to a charity.  It helped me not feel like I was wasting my time sitting there, but also kept me off of the computer, which left me less able to  pull away to help when needed.

 

This may also be a time to make a very detailed weekly or daily worklist.  Sometimes a student frustration is a sense that the work never ends.  If they can see that it is finite, they have a little more hope that they will get done.

[borninthesouth]

One question-- if I have her do the mastery for Pre-Algebra on Khan Academy will that give me an idea how far back we need to go?  

[borninthesouth]

Very helpful.  Thank you for your kind words.  

First, this is not a problem that is unique to your house.  It happens with many teens.  The difficulty level of school is ramping up, it seems more consequential (ie, something they could fail), and they may be struggling with impulse control and deferring gratification.

 

At the same time, parents are often distracted by trying to keep up with several children or thinking that at this age the kid should be working independently.  It can make for a bad combination.  

 

You know at this point that if she has the opportunity to cheat, it will be a strong temptation.  Take steps to remove temptations. At our house that meant only working on a computer in public areas, with the screen visible, not in the basement or a bedroom.  Separate answer keys and solutions from the books she has access to.  Limit the amount of time she is home alone.  She may need to spend a season going with you a lot.  My kids did not have phones with internet ability as young teens.  Instead they had pay as you go flip phones so they could be in contact.  Or we issued out a phone when they left the house and it went back into a kitchen drawer between events.  You may need to investigate changing internet passwords or setting up access with time restrictions.

 

I also had to discipline MYSELF more to be there during school time, not on the computer or otherwise distracted.  It wasn't my preference, but it was necessary.  

 

I agree with others that part of the temptation is a sense that she doesn't know what to do in the math.  I would recommend that math go back to being a topic that is done with you at her elbow, rather than something she does independently.  That might mean you sit with her as she does every problem.  It might mean that you are doing each problem at the same time.  It might mean that she does the work on a big white board and explains her steps as you watch and give on the spot correction.  If what you have been doing isn't working, stop doing it that way.

 

I learned to knit so I would have something to do with my hands while I monitored my kids school work.  I donate hats and scarves to a charity.  It helped me not feel like I was wasting my time sitting there, but also kept me off of the computer, which left me less able to  pull away to help when needed.

 

This may also be a time to make a very detailed weekly or daily worklist.  Sometimes a student frustration is a sense that the work never ends.  If they can see that it is finite, they have a little more hope that they will get done.

 

[daijobu]

My kids don't take math tests at home.  I assess by watching them solve problems while I sit next to them.  You don't necessarily need to test them if you can assess them with observation.  If you can, sit with her while she does her problem sets and give her Socratic instruction (aka hints) if she gets stuck.  Hopefully this will also reinforce the idea that learning is more important than a score.  Best of luck.  

[RootAnn]

I can't remember the name of it (not Khan,not IXL), but there is a website (subscription) where your kid can work on math skills and it tracks what they are good at and what they need more work on. ?? Might be good (once someone posts its name) to do that everyday to shore up math weaknesses as you back up.

It also might help to either start the year over with a new algebra program or restart this one. She needs to learn the material, even if it takes her another year.

Definitely not something that has never happened before. She needs to know she can ask for help, admit she doesn't know, and you will either help or find her some one who can help if you can't. It is ok if she doesn't know - and obviously she doesn't think it is.

 

Edited to add:  The website I was trying to think of is Aleks!

Edited March 14, 2017 by RootAnn

[Sebastian (a lady)]

One question-- if I have her do the mastery for Pre-Algebra on Khan Academy will that give me an idea how far back we need to go?

Maybe. Has she used Khan Academy before? Will topics show up as mastered or nearly mastered because she did them before?

 

I have used Khan Academy with my kids at times, but it can reward a guess and check mentality instead of requiring thoughtfully solving problems. You might consider requiring her to work all problems out on paper before entering the answers.

 

In fact you might work them out yourself at the same time. This lets you see where her misunderstanding are. So rather than just knowing she missed several topics, you might see that she is dropping negative signs or not finding a common denominator before adding fractions.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

One other thought. This might be a call to evaluate how much margin and reserve you have in your life.

 

Is she over extended? Are you? Do you need to back away from some other areas for a time? That might be extracurricular stuff. It might be less critical but time consuming academics. Highly demanding history and lit studies might need to take a backseat to math for a time.

 

I can't see signature blocks on my phone so I dont know your kid count and age range. Do you have time to maintain your stamina and reserves? I know it can feel impossible. Working out and sleeping enough help me be strong enough to keep up better with my mom responsibilities. Sort of like putting on your own oxygen mask first.

[GinaPagnato]

I can't remember the name of it (not Khan,not IXL), but there is a website (subscription) where your kid can work on math skills and it tracks what they are good at and what they need more work on. ?? Might be good (once someone posts its name) to do that everyday to shore up math weaknesses as you back up.

 

It also might help to either start the year over with a new algebra program or restart this one. She needs to learn the material, even if it takes her another year.

 

Definitely not something that has never happened before. She needs to know she can ask for help, admit she doesn't know, and you will either help or find her some one who can help if you can't. It is ok if she doesn't know - and obviously she doesn't think it is.

 

Alcumus from Art of Problem Solving?

[GinaPagnato]

I agree with the others that a 2/20 on a test shows a lack of understanding. Sounds like she panics when she has a test because she feels so shaky. Are you using Saxon? I ask because of the 20 question test. When my dc have gone through Saxon algebra I literally sat right next to them for each problem to provide immediate correction when needed. It also helped *me* because as I watched them solving a problem I could see right away where their thought process was going awry. I know you have other kids, too, as do I. But mastering a skill like Algebra is so important, and so many other maths build from it, that I would prioritize working on math right beside her. Organize your other kids' schoolwork and your involvement with them in such a way that you are 100% available to her during that block of time.

 

It sounds like she's a good kid who is feeling overwhelmed. I think it can be solved with another approach besides public school.

 

Hugs, mama. Homeschooling is hard work!

[SparklyUnicorn]

I can't remember the name of it (not Khan,not IXL), but there is a website (subscription) where your kid can work on math skills and it tracks what they are good at and what they need more work on. ?? Might be good (once someone posts its name) to do that everyday to shore up math weaknesses as you back up.

 

It also might help to either start the year over with a new algebra program or restart this one. She needs to learn the material, even if it takes her another year.

 

Definitely not something that has never happened before. She needs to know she can ask for help, admit she doesn't know, and you will either help or find her some one who can help if you can't. It is ok if she doesn't know - and obviously she doesn't think it is.

 

Edited to add:  The website I was trying to think of is Aleks!

 

Yes Aleks is awesome!  I used it myself.

 

 

[katilac]

 

 

Edited to add:  The website I was trying to think of is Aleks!

 

Yes, it's worth taking a look at ALEKS. It's not free like Khan Academy, but I find it far easier to use and much more accurate in assessing knowledge and shaky skills. It's $20/month. If it works well for her, you can save by buying six months or a year at a time. 

 

High school can be very stressful - the workload increases, and everything 'counts.'  If you haven't addressed her anxiety with a doctor, I would definitely do that, along with lessening the opportunities for cheating. And it's not a bad idea to take her with you to get some work done on the road, but I wouldn't do it in a punitive manner, just "that isn't working well, let's try this." 

 

It's frustrating, but it really doesn't sound like she wants to cheat. It sounds very anxiety-driven to me, and somewhat compulsive. I don't agree that she will find a way to cheat if she wants to - just proctor her tests. She is flat-out telling you she can't help herself, so nothing good will come of putting her in that position.

 

Or, as others have said, back off on typical testing for a while. Algebra can graded as Pass when she has sufficient mastery of the material (ALEKS could help with deciding this if needed). 

 

It's hard, and it's frustrating, but the fact is that many teens will dawdle if left to work alone, and many teens will give in to cheating if tests aren't proctored. Of course you want them to be self-motivated and responsible and honest, but it's a work in progress! People develop different skills on different time frames. Just keep trucking and she will get there. You don't want a severe math phobia to set in if it can be avoided. 

 

My focus would be on addressing the anxiety with a doctor and diminishing focus on testing. She has to learn to manage test taking, but she has time.  Good luck!

[bibsandmegs]

We had this going on in our house with one child. I have four, all were homeschooled at the time.

 

As has been mentioned,

 

- all teachers manuals are locked up (behind a locked door as they used a paper clip on a locked file cabinet)

- I supervised all work done on the computer

- this child no longer has access to her computer without a parent present (only the parents know the password)

 

Now, I'll tell you the rest of the story.

 

This child suffers from depression, deep depression. She had been cheating a lot for a long time before we discovered it. We talked, we punished, we prayed, etc. My DH and I agonized over this for months. We tried to determine the right thing for this child. We even talked about putting her back in public school - not our first choice, at all! One day, her therapist said she thought we should put her back in public school. It was a message to us. We truly felt this was the confirmation we needed that this was what we were supposed to do. It was very hard! I'm not saying this is the right answer for you because it's not the best placed and not the right place for everyone. However, for this child, it was the right thing. She is thriving now! Life at home is so much more peaceful. Yes, her education is not near what it was at home, but when it makes this big a difference, it's worth it. I still homeschool three other children.

 

Yes, she can still cheat at public school, but it's not as easy. She also knows that if she gets kicked out for cheating, she will not be homeschooled again. We made that very clear. I actually think, for her, just being in a different environment made all the difference.

 

I'm not saying this is right for your dc. I'm just telling you our story so that you look at all the factors. I hope this helps in some way.

[foxbridgeacademy]

If it were my kid, I'd probably assume the work was too hard and apologize for not paying attention/helping more and have a long talk about how she knows I'm always on her side and I will do whatever is needed to help her succeed on her own merit and that cheating/lying to me solves nothing... how can I help you fix the problem if you don't tell me about it?.  Then we'd start over looking for gaps and I'd sit with her for every single lesson (I do this already).  I would assume no more cheating but I would also stop testing if that's what's causing the anxiety. We'd work each problem together so I could get a sense of how she's doing. if I'm right there then there's no issues or worries about cheating.  If I had little kids then they could have free time in another part of the house for an hour a day while she and I worked on Math and anything else that was causing her trouble that day.

[borninthesouth]

Thank you.  This is helpful.  I don't know if I am going to put her back in public school or not.  She is begging not to go, but I can't sit with her for every lesson.  She is cheating often, in all subjects-- particularly math.  Having 4 kids and she being the oldest makes it hard to give her hours of one on one time each day.  The behavior goes beyond cheating to too much digital time when she is not supposed to have electronics and watching shows I have clearly said no to.    I love her to pieces, but following her around all day to make sure she makes good choices is exhausting.  She seems to be having a change of heart, but it is hard for me believe it will last-- because we have done this before.  But, as a mom I will believe in her and that it is going to last and help her make goals that will take her beyond the bad choices she is currently making and hopefully to a better place.  We have taken all the answer keys, changed all the computer passwords and taken away all her digital accessibility and she will earn each back little by little.  

We had this going on in our house with one child. I have four, all were homeschooled at the time.

As has been mentioned,

- all teachers manuals are locked up (behind a locked door as they used a paper clip on a locked file cabinet)
- I supervised all work done on the computer
- this child no longer has access to her computer without a parent present (only the parents know the password)

Now, I'll tell you the rest of the story.

This child suffers from depression, deep depression. She had been cheating a lot for a long time before we discovered it. We talked, we punished, we prayed, etc. My DH and I agonized over this for months. We tried to determine the right thing for this child. We even talked about putting her back in public school - not our first choice, at all! One day, her therapist said she thought we should put her back in public school. It was a message to us. We truly felt this was the confirmation we needed that this was what we were supposed to do. It was very hard! I'm not saying this is the right answer for you because it's not the best placed and not the right place for everyone. However, for this child, it was the right thing. She is thriving now! Life at home is so much more peaceful. Yes, her education is not near what it was at home, but when it makes this big a difference, it's worth it. I still homeschool three other children.

Yes, she can still cheat at public school, but it's not as easy. She also knows that if she gets kicked out for cheating, she will not be homeschooled again. We made that very clear. I actually think, for her, just being in a different environment made all the difference.

I'm not saying this is right for your dc. I'm just telling you our story so that you look at all the factors. I hope this helps in some way.

 

[borninthesouth]

Another question-- How do you moms remember Algebra 1 and 2 and Geometry?   :laugh: I remember parts of Algebra (I liked Algebra), but nothing but loathing for Geometry.  I can sit with her, but I am no help much beyond intro to Algebra.  I guess I can do a refresher, but that may not happen until summer.  

[maize]

Another question-- How do you moms remember Algebra 1 and 2 and Geometry? :laugh: I remember parts of Algebra (I liked Algebra), but nothing but loathing for Geometry. I can sit with her, but I am no help much beyond intro to Algebra. I guess I can do a refresher, but that may not happen until summer.

You can sit and read the chapter and work the problems alongside her. That is your refresher. It seems to me that if we expect our students to learn that way we can expect the same from ourselves?

 

I do recognize that finding the time to do this with a larger family can be difficult. I have 6.5 kids and have recently turned over my own algebra student to my mom--she's in a different state but she and my daughter Skype math time together. Mom has her own copy of the textbook and they both work the problems and talk about them. If mom didn't already have my undying gratitude and love she would have earned it just for this!

[Penelope]

Another question-- How do you moms remember Algebra 1 and 2 and Geometry? :laugh: I remember parts of Algebra (I liked Algebra), but nothing but loathing for Geometry. I can sit with her, but I am no help much beyond intro to Algebra. I guess I can do a refresher, but that may not happen until summer.

Yes, this explains why so many people outsource math beginning at some time in high school. I have found that I am only a competent teacher/facilitator for the math several levels *below* the level I finished in my schooling. A level or so above that, I can study ahead and jog my memory and be okay, but then there is a point where that isn't really good enough, either.

 

Anyone can check the answers. But I have to know enough to be able to tell if understanding is there, or if it is just that the student memorized a pattern of how to do something. I have to be able to evaluate the process by which they got the answer. This semester I have watched a lot of math teaching videos online, and I see some that approach things conceptually and then a whole lot that just show the "tricks" of how to do a problem that looks like such and such. A student that has the latter too often and for too long is going to eventually hit a wall IMO.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Another question-- How do you moms remember Algebra 1 and 2 and Geometry?   :laugh: I remember parts of Algebra (I liked Algebra), but nothing but loathing for Geometry.  I can sit with her, but I am no help much beyond intro to Algebra.  I guess I can do a refresher, but that may not happen until summer.  

 

I didn't necessarily *remember* a lot of algebra and geometry. But I did have the ability to understand it when I read the lesson and did it with my sons.  If you are not able to do that, then it may be worth the money to outsource it in a way that works with her at the level she is in, but also moves her forward.

 

You might find that revisiting math now that you are older, more mature and more experience in the world is nothing like it was when you were a teenager.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Thank you.  This is helpful.  I don't know if I am going to put her back in public school or not.  She is begging not to go, but I can't sit with her for every lesson.  She is cheating often, in all subjects-- particularly math.  Having 4 kids and she being the oldest makes it hard to give her hours of one on one time each day.  The behavior goes beyond cheating to too much digital time when she is not supposed to have electronics and watching shows I have clearly said no to.    I love her to pieces, but following her around all day to make sure she makes good choices is exhausting.  She seems to be having a change of heart, but it is hard for me believe it will last-- because we have done this before.  But, as a mom I will believe in her and that it is going to last and help her make goals that will take her beyond the bad choices she is currently making and hopefully to a better place.  We have taken all the answer keys, changed all the computer passwords and taken away all her digital accessibility and she will earn each back little by little.  

 

Yes, parenting a teen is exhausting.  No lie.  When we had experiences like this, it was months before we were back on an even keel.  There were definitely times when I would look at one of my kids and tell them that XYZ wasn't going to happen because I didn't know that I could trust them anymore.  It took time, but they matured and we did move past it as a family.

 

You don't necessarily have to give her hours of one on one time.  But you do need to make sure that she is getting enough and probably that she does not have solitary time during routine school time.  That may mean that she sits in a corner of the living room while you are in an adjoining room doing school with another kid.  It probably means no more schoolwork in a bedroom, certainly nothing on a computer.

[FriedClams]

Another question-- How do you moms remember Algebra 1 and 2 and Geometry? :laugh: I remember parts of Algebra (I liked Algebra), but nothing but loathing for Geometry. I can sit with her, but I am no help much beyond intro to Algebra. I guess I can do a refresher, but that may not happen until summer.

I do every problem, every day with them. We watch the video (we use Saxon and Art Reed videos) where I teach them how to take notes, make a formula card, etc, and then we do the problems. I have a notebook, and they have a notebook. That way I can help, and get help from the kids (which is not uncommon in advanced math, LOL!). I also take all the tests. It's actually very fun and makes math better for everyone. It becomes something we do together, not something I do TO them. I also think it communicates a lot, particularly to girls, that math isn't something that's "too hard for mom" or a "wait until dad gets home" subject.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I do every problem, every day with them. We watch the video (we use Saxon and Art Reed videos) where I teach them how to take notes, make a formula card, etc, and then we do the problems. I have a notebook, and they have a notebook. That way I can help, and get help from the kids (which is not uncommon in advanced math, LOL!). I also take all the tests. It's actually very fun and makes math better for everyone. It becomes something we do together, not something I do TO them. I also think it communicates a lot, particularly to girls, that math isn't something that's "too hard for mom" or a "wait until dad gets home" subject.

 

I love this.

 

I think that in general, people are rather quick with the label of being "not good at math." There are all kinds of things that I haven't been good at when I started.  Time spent working out, learning to cook better meals, driving, etc all have made me better at those tasks.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

There are a lot of threads about remediating math, especially algebra.

 

One suggestion is to do an hour a day without fail, but to stop at the one hour point. It may take more meetings to get through each lesson, but it may take some of the dread out of the lesson to know that it will be over in 60 min. Over time the consistency will be likely to result in improved understanding and with that a better speed.