Night Elf Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 My dd was advised to take 4 classes and 1 of them was an Arts and Humanities class. DD couldn't find an open class she wanted. She emailed the advisor and asked if she could look at Physical Science or Social Sciences. The advisor responded by telling her to look at fine arts, philosophy or religion. Dd doesn't want to take any of those. She also didn't get that response until after she registered and she got a social sciences class she really wanted. She sent another email telling her advisor what she did. We don't think it's imperative she take the Arts and Humanities class this next semester. I can't imagine them being strict to tell her she absolutely must do what they say. What do you think? She'd have to rework her schedule and take a class she doesn't want. That doesn't seem to be fair. We're paying a lot of money for her to be in this school and she's taking classes under the general education core requirements. What difference does it make when she takes them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 We're not compliant by nature in my family. I consider an advisor to be one who gives advice, not one who dictates. I wouldn't be concerned in the slightest, but would consider it polite that your dd explained what happened. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 (edited) If the student needs a certain type of class, it is usually up to the student in which semester she takes the class; the advisor cannot force the student into a specific class at a specific point in time. The advisor lifts the avdising hold after the meeting with the student, and ultimately the student can sign up for whatever and pick completely different classes than the advisor suggested. ETA: OTOH, it is wise to listen to the advisor. One class might be a prerequisite for another class, or some class may only be offered infrequently. Good advisors know this stuff. Edited November 18, 2016 by regentrude 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 (edited) We're not compliant by nature in my family. I consider an advisor to be one who gives advice, not one who dictates. I wouldn't be concerned in the slightest, but would consider it polite that your dd explained what happened. :iagree: It has been my experience that too many advisors are know-nothings (or know-a-littles who act like they know-it-all). They have just enough knowledge to plug things in a certain way, and thinking outside of the box just isn't a thing they feel like doing. It's work. And they insist that the way they are doing things is the only way because it is the way things are done. Sigh. I have one kid who wants to finish a STEM degree with two minors, a semester abroad, and 1-2 coop semesters in 4.5-5 years. I have another who came in with a ton of DE credits and wants to finish her degree (1 major, 1 minor) in 3 years to move on to grad school - and maybe spend a semester somewhere else to boot. And probably do all her field/lab work elsewhere (not taking their regular programs). It looks like all of these are possible, but only with creative thinking and planning and moving things around. This is not 'the way things are done' and it freaks the advisors out. Hey, I'm a homeschooler, I'm all about out of the box. We've had to sit down with all the lists of requirements for majors, minors, and and check pre-requisites and limitations on when you can take certain classes or when they are offered and make plans. Departmental advisors or deans are usually much more helpful for much of this - they know much more about the classes than the registration advisors, and can sign off on skipping pre-reqs or alternate classes. The registration advisor at one dd's school was such a pain (what's with putting someone who's not a STEM person in charge of STEM advising - she constantly thinks all the classes will be 'too hard' or 'too much') we've just circumvented her. Dd went to a registration open house and they just said 'great' and unlocked her account so she could sign up for what she wanted to. I'm absolutely sure there are some great advisors out there that really listen and have good advice. We've had some good ones at the CC (although pretty much we walk in knowing exactly what we want and they agree - but that's way better than being argumentative or obstructive). But don't let them boss you around - do your own research and talk to departmental people (or for things like core classes, just read the website and the catalog. Those are all about box-checking, if you check right boxes at the right time, that's all you need to do). Edited November 18, 2016 by Matryoshka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted November 18, 2016 Author Share Posted November 18, 2016 If the student needs a certain type of class, it is usually up to the student in which semester she takes the class; the advisor cannot force the student into a specific class at a specific point in time. The advisor lifts the avdising hold after the meeting with the student, and ultimately the student can sign up for whatever and pick completely different classes than the advisor suggested. ETA: OTOH, it is wise to listen to the advisor. One class might be a prerequisite for another class, or some class may only be offered infrequently. Good advisors know this stuff. They're general ed classes that aren't a sequence. They just satisfy one spot in a category. I think she needs two social sciences and this next semester she's taking a psychology class. Her Arts and Humanities classes were like an English literature, Religion beginning in the 17th century, a film class, Philosophy 1101. Those sorts of classes. They aren't prereqs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 (edited) They're general ed classes that aren't a sequence. They just satisfy one spot in a category. I think she needs two social sciences and this next semester she's taking a psychology class. Her Arts and Humanities classes were like an English literature, Religion beginning in the 17th century, a film class, Philosophy 1101. Those sorts of classes. They aren't prereqs. They may not be a sequence, but for example, at our school, English composition 1 and one semester of British or American lit are prerequisite for any higher level literature courses - for all the cool and special ones. Intro to Philosophy is prereq for the very coveted Philosophy of Science course - something our majors need to know early so they can take the latter to fulfill their requirement, but if they realize too late and don't plan a slot to take intro, they won't have that option. So, even with gen ed, higher level classes will have lower level classes as prerequisites. Edited November 18, 2016 by regentrude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 (edited) I was just talking yesterday with a guy who graduated from the same (Mechanical Engineering) program - 10 years after I did. He asked me what I thought of my advisor. I told him that I had three of them and only needed one for advice (and needed it badly) one semester - and that was the semester my advisor was on loan to another campus and thus never around. The departmental dean's secretary was my savior. Otherwise, when I had to see them, they were completely unhelpful and useless. (But, several of the professors would have been great. I just didn't get assigned to those ones.) ETA: He asked because he had a very bad experience with his advisor as he was a non-traditional student transferring from a CC. The advisor was clueless and told him to just "read the manual. It will tell you what classes to take." He never went back to see the advisor after that. I echo what some of the others said - use them for advice, but do what you need to do. And know that the department's secretary or someone in the dean's office might end up being more helpful for tricky situations, which yours doesn't sound like. Glad your daughter got a social science class she wanted! Edited November 18, 2016 by RootAnn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted November 18, 2016 Author Share Posted November 18, 2016 They may not be a sequence, but for example, at our school, English composition 1 and one semester of British or American lit are prerequisite for any higher level literature courses - for all the cool and special ones. Intro to Philosophy is prereq for the very coveted Philosophy of Science course - something our majors need to know early so they can take the latter to fulfill their requirement, but if they realize too late and don't plan a slot to take intro, they won't have that option. So, even with gen ed, higher level classes will have lower level classes as prerequisites. I understand that, but she only needs one literature and not all of them have prereqs. Only the upper level foreign languages have prereqs. And she needs two courses under fine arts/philosophy/religion, and some of those have prereqs as well but of classes she probably won't take under the literature requirement. And she won't take anymore of those types of classes. I think she'll be fine. She's got a lot of courses to choose from. She can work on the Arts and Humanities next year. She was very hesitant about taking a literature class while taking English 1102 next semester. She's had a lot of reading/writing in English 1101 of things that didn't interest her. Her psychology class is a subject she's really interested in and won't mind reading/writing in it. She's looking forward to it. She tested out of the prereq for it with her AP exam. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootsie Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 Advising is handled differently at different schools (and differently across different departments at the same school). This can impact the quality (and appropriateness) of advise. It may not matter what order general education requirements are taken in. However, the advisor may know something--that if the students change majors they are unlikely to need a certain course or will need to take a particular course to meet the requirement (e.g. a social science course may be required but if you are a business major you need to take economics for that social science without adding hours). Or, maybe the advisor knows that if a student takes a well-liked upper level course, study abroad, internship, or some other popular course that it will fill in a particular slot and suggests that the student wait for that class. My suggestion would be for her to ask why the advisor made the particular suggestion--was it personal preference or does the advisor have some information that should be considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 I would also ask the advisor and then do what she feels is best after looking at all avenues. Advisors are not the final say. I've changed classes between advising and registration before. My advisor is pretty lenient as long as I'm moving forward toward graduation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obsidian Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 My advisor was completely useless. :huh: She told me to take Calc IV instead of Number Theory, despite the fact that Number Theory is a prereq for nearly every higher level math course, and Calc IV is not. And she didn't want me to take a class that one of the math professors advised I take because I wasn't taking it in the right order (I had all the prereqs for it done). I'm sure some advisors are good, but mine is not, and I learned more from looking at prereqs for classes I want to take next semester, looking at how often the class is offered, and looking at my major req sheet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Girls' Mom Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 My college experience thus far has caused me to lose all faith in the competency of advisors..lol. My dd and I both have had very, very bad suggestions from our advisors, and one advisor would have caused dd to not graduate on time if she'd followed her recommendations. If you've carefully looked at classes and feel confident that she's not missing something major, then don't worry about it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 (edited) My son's school does not have advisors, they are assigned a professor from their major, who basically just makes sure the student understands pre-reqs and how to stay on track to graduate,then enters it on the computer, thus allowing them to register. I think Walt said the meeting lasts about 90 seconds. At first it worried me, but really, these are young adults who should know how to read and follow a course schedule. To comment on the bolded: yes, that is correct. But reading the course schedule and knowing which classes they should take does not tell them that: - a certain class is only offered in spring semesters or only every other year (this info is not in the catalog) - a certain instructor should better be avoided - of two comp sci courses that can fulfill the same requirement, one is the easy course to check the box and the other is for students who actually want to learn programming - a certain instructor will be going on research leave and not teaching the following year - if you end in the online section because the in seat section you wanted is full, there are ways you can still attend the live lecture - departments have leeway and can substitute a course that is not listed as fulfilling the requirements to fulfill the requirement -of the different courses that fulfill the requirement, some are more helpful for later work in a job in their major than others (undergraduates do not have the insight to discern this) - a certain combination of courses is a heavier work load than another combination which totals the same number of credit hours - if they want to apply to grad school, they should take a course that is normally taken in spring of senior year a year early because the topic is covered on the subject GRE These are all things my colleagues and I deal with in our capacity as undergrad advisors. In my department, we take the advising pretty seriously and aim to meet with every major during advising week. It's a loooong week. Edited November 20, 2016 by regentrude 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 To comment on the bolded: yes, that is correct. But reading the course schedule and knowing which classes they should take does not tell them that: - a certain class is only offered in spring semesters or only every other year (this info is not in the catalog) - a certain instructor should better be avoided - of two comp sci courses that can fulfill the same requirement, one is the easy course to check the box and the other is for students who actually want to learn programming - a certain instructor will be going on research leave and not teaching the following year - if you end in the online section because the in seat section you wanted is full, there are ways you can still attend the live lecture - departments have leeway and can substitute a course that is not listed as fulfilling the requirements to fulfill the requirement -of the different courses that fulfill the requirement, some are more helpful for later work in a job in their major than others (undergraduates do not have the insight to discern this) - a certain combination of courses is a heavier work load than another combination which totals the same number of credit hours - if they want to apply to grad school, they should take a course that is normally taken in spring of senior year a year early because the topic is covered on the subject GRE These are all things my colleagues and I deal with in our capacity as undergrad advisors. In my department, we take the advising pretty seriously and aim to meet with every major during advising week. It's a loooong week. Yeah, that's exactly the info that the registration advisors do not give most places. You need to head over to the department head or sometimes the dept secretary. At one dd's school the fact that a certain class is offered only spring semester or alternate years is in fact in the catalog, but no one so far has been able to tell her when the courses ran last/are running next so she can plan. :glare: She's going to talk to the department people next. It sounds like at your school the department people are the advisors. That makes sense. The advisors most are complaining about here are yet another extra layer of admin that's been added that have not been in the major themselves at that school and usually do not have any of that knowledge you mention, but they're the gatekeepers you have to go through before you're supposed to talk to anyone else... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 (edited) Yeah, that's exactly the info that the registration advisors do not give most places. You need to head over to the department head or sometimes the dept secretary. At one dd's school the fact that a certain class is offered only spring semester or alternate years is in fact in the catalog, but no one so far has been able to tell her when the courses ran last/are running next so she can plan. :glare: She's going to talk to the department people next. It sounds like at your school the department people are the advisors. That makes sense. The advisors most are complaining about here are yet another extra layer of admin that's been added that have not been in the major themselves at that school and usually do not have any of that knowledge you mention, but they're the gatekeepers you have to go through before you're supposed to talk to anyone else... Yes, at our school, advising is done in the department. Advising through the registrar's or admission's office makes no sense since these people do not have the information that is necessary to determine the best course of action for an individual student in a specific major. I would advise (no pun intended) everybody to encourage their students to check with the undergraduate studies coordinator/academic advisor/secretary/ IN the respective academic department if there are any questions or ambiguities. Students who sign up at big open house events for admitted freshmen often get poor advice about prerequisites etc. Edited November 20, 2016 by regentrude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 An advisor is just an advisor. We have not had good experience with advisors knowing exactly what should be taken and when. Often it doesn't even matter. But sometimes it does, and that's when I finally realized that we needed (mostly the student, but sometimes with the guidance of a parent) to be far more careful. My ds had to stay in school an extra semester to get the classes in that he could have completed earlier but they just didn't line up right that last year. A dd ended up having to drop one of her majors because she followed the advice of her advisor, but then in her last year she couldn't take a class that was needed because it was only offered in the fall that year but required a prerequisite that was also only offered in the fall. My current dd in college ran into the same problem just this year. She is a junior, and her advisor told her to take her science + lab this spring to get it out of the way. It was only after I double checked everything (which I never did with my other kids, but finally learned with my youngest!) that I was able to look ahead and see that two classes (required for her major) that she needs in order to graduate in 2018 were only offered in the spring at the same hour. She was planning to take them both next year. Luckily, she is able to take one of those classes this spring instead, instead of the science. She can take a general science + lab anytime. It's really up to the student (and sometimes parent ;)) to figure out exactly what is needed and when. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted November 20, 2016 Author Share Posted November 20, 2016 My dd isn't advised by the department. It's a set of general advisors for the whole school, Franklin College of Arts and Sciences. Based on one of her advising appointments, they aren't even up to speed on every major within that school. I think they're literally for only the general education classes everyone takes before getting into the major classes. I don't know when they'll transfer her to her department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Advising is a total joke in the dual enrollment program my daughter attends. Basically, the state dictates specific rosters of classes from which DE students can choose, so you have to stay within those, but there is none of the type of guidance regentrude is describing. To me it would make sense that someone from the transfer department would advise the group in the college transfer tracks and someone in the relevant department would advise those taking a career certificate track, but that is not the case. The part-time person who is over the program for multiple campuses serves as the "advisor" for homeschoolers (it's pushed off on the high school guidance counselors for those in brick and mortar schools who participate). No meetings or sign-offs required or suggested other than that your paperwork showing eligibility is in (which you email or turn into the registrar)---no input on class selection at all. The woman who had the position last year and did our informational meeting made it very clear she had no interest in actually talking to a student if she didn't have to do so. She flat out said advising wasn't her "strong point," and spent the time walking us through the website she set up. At the end, the survey asked if we now felt we could do it all on our own. The one this year at least has responded (albeit unhelpfully) when my daughter had a registration issue. I ended up walking my daughter through how to go to the department and registrar to get the situation cleared up. The advisor at another relatively local cc DE program has a reputation as super helpful and useful, but it's about five times as far to drive and doesn't have many of the options my daughter wants, so we suck it up for two years and I do my best with input from other families in the program on what they've had to do to get what they needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa B Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 It definitely varies college to college and program to program. The DE advisors at our local CC are excellent. We've had two and they are great. They juggle so much information as they keep the high school transcript as well as the CC transcript for each DE student. They have specific information on all of the professors and classes as well as necessary testing and transfer information. Even the front desk secretaries are knowledgable and helpful. While the DE liaison at the local university is a nightmare. I'm reconsidering having any of my other children take DE classes at the university as I just do not want to deal with her again. The freshmen advisors at my dd's university are an absolute joke. I'm not sure how they chose them, but my daughter recognized one of them as a friend from one of her DE classes there. He didn't have any special training to her knowledge - maybe just any upperclassman that volunteered? Her advisor knew nothing. On the day open registration unlocked, she dropped nearly every class he had registered her for and reregistered for classes that made sense. She just met recently with her major advisor and she said he seems decent. He's not overly involved, but was able to answer general questions and approve her for classes that are otherwise locked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 To comment on the bolded: yes, that is correct. But reading the course schedule and knowing which classes they should take does not tell them that: - a certain class is only offered in spring semesters or only every other year (this info is not in the catalog) - a certain instructor should better be avoided - of two comp sci courses that can fulfill the same requirement, one is the easy course to check the box and the other is for students who actually want to learn programming - a certain instructor will be going on research leave and not teaching the following year - if you end in the online section because the in seat section you wanted is full, there are ways you can still attend the live lecture - departments have leeway and can substitute a course that is not listed as fulfilling the requirements to fulfill the requirement -of the different courses that fulfill the requirement, some are more helpful for later work in a job in their major than others (undergraduates do not have the insight to discern this) - a certain combination of courses is a heavier work load than another combination which totals the same number of credit hours - if they want to apply to grad school, they should take a course that is normally taken in spring of senior year a year early because the topic is covered on the subject GRE These are all things my colleagues and I deal with in our capacity as undergrad advisors. In my department, we take the advising pretty seriously and aim to meet with every major during advising week. It's a loooong week. This is how it works at my school, at least in my department. My advisor allots an hour for each student. The school also sends out an advising survey every semester, which people can do anonymously or get specific about issues with a particular person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 (edited) I would just bounce along merrily with what she chose, as long as DD is aware that this course may not satisfy a requirement for graduation that would be satisfied with the other options, that she may need the recommended course as a prereq, and providing this choice wouldn't alter her graduation plans. My dd was advised to take 4 classes and 1 of them was an Arts and Humanities class. DD couldn't find an open class she wanted. She emailed the advisor and asked if she could look at Physical Science or Social Sciences. The advisor responded by telling her to look at fine arts, philosophy or religion. Dd doesn't want to take any of those. She also didn't get that response until after she registered and she got a social sciences class she really wanted. She sent another email telling her advisor what she did. We don't think it's imperative she take the Arts and Humanities class this next semester. I can't imagine them being strict to tell her she absolutely must do what they say. What do you think? She'd have to rework her schedule and take a class she doesn't want. That doesn't seem to be fair. We're paying a lot of money for her to be in this school and she's taking classes under the general education core requirements. What difference does it make when she takes them? Edited November 21, 2016 by reefgazer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 My dd isn't advised by the department. It's a set of general advisors for the whole school, Franklin College of Arts and Sciences. Based on one of her advising appointments, they aren't even up to speed on every major within that school. I think they're literally for only the general education classes everyone takes before getting into the major classes. I don't know when they'll transfer her to her department. Ds's school did a freshman advisor that was not from their major, then they could request an advisor in their major or one was appointed. Ds has never met with an advisor. He recently changed advisors so he does have two advisors (one for each major) that he knows now and they are both already mentors, so I'm hoping they will prove helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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