Need some reputable links to info on Heathenry for a beginner

[KarenNC]

My daughter has recently been increasingly interested in Heathenry so I'd like to find some good links for her on what's out there in terms of reputable resources and groups (and what to avoid).

 

Thanks!

[MercyA]

I know this isn't what you're looking for, Karen, but I strongly, strongly advise your daughter not to dabble in or seriously undertake the practice of heathenry. 

 

As Shakespeare wrote, "There are more things in heaven and earth...than are dreamt of in your philosophy," and not all of them are good.

[Mergath]

I know this isn't what you're looking for, Karen, but I strongly, strongly advise your daughter not to dabble in or seriously undertake the practice of heathenry. 

 

As Shakespeare wrote, "There are more things in heaven and earth...than are dreamt of in your philosophy," and not all of them are good.

 

Really? Come on now. When someone asks for specific Christian resources, I don't come into those posts and strongly advise them not to "dabble in Christianity."

[Mergath]

OP, does she want a general overview? Or is she looking for more specific information?

[KarenNC]

I know this isn't what you're looking for, Karen, but I strongly, strongly advise your daughter not to dabble in or seriously undertake the practice of heathenry. 

 

As Shakespeare wrote, "There are more things in heaven and earth...than are dreamt of in your philosophy," and not all of them are good.

 

MercyA, you're right, this isn't what I'm looking for. Based on your sig line quote from Romans, I am going to presume you are a Christian. Your response is coming across the same as if someone posted asking for more information on the Methodist or Roman Catholic Church or any other Christian denomination (as happens many, many times on these boards) and having a non-Christian jump in to say, "I strongly, strongly advise you not to dabble in Christianity--it's very dangerous!" or even a Protestant saying, "I strongly, strongly advise you to stay away from the Roman Catholic Church---it's evil!" Frankly, it feels pretty rude. It would have been more respectful to at least open the conversation with a less condemnatory post---perhaps a question to find out more about why I was asking than to jump in with hob-nailed boots.

 

We are already a Neopagan family (more toward the Hellenic end of things, overall) and have been for many, many years, longer than she has been alive, so she has grown up as a Neopagan. This isn't some unusual tangent. At 16, she is feeling drawn to a different aspect within the Neopagan umbrella and I want to help guide her exploration in a responsible manner because I am well aware that there are groups and elements within any religion (including Christianity) that are not desirable. Knowing that there are some members on this forum who are practicing Heathens, I'm asking for suggestions from them as people who are more involved with that community. 

[MercyA]

Really? Come on now. When someone asks for specific Christian resources, I don't come into those posts and strongly advise them not to "dabble in Christianity."

 

Fair enough, Mergath, and I understand your response. 

 

I'm trying to think of an analogy that won't increase the offense already taken here (and will probably come up short, but I'll do my best). I guess from my perspective, it's as if someone said, "My daughter is thinking of taking up snake-charming" and then asked for resources to encourage that interest. If no one else responded, I'd feel a responsibility to say, "Hey, maybe that's not such a good idea," *especially* if I had some knowledge of snakes.

 

I have had concrete dealings with demons in the physical world. Call me a nutter if you'd like, but it's the truth. I think any manifestations of neopagan deities are demons. I do think it's dangerous. I don't think it's safe. Karen has said that she feels differently, and I'm not going to argue with her about it. 

[KarenNC]

OP, does she want a general overview? Or is she looking for more specific information?

 

For now, general information for both of us. She said that she is feeling more drawn to the Norse mythology at this point and wants to learn more about what's out there in that community. We know of one practicing group locally that has invited us to gatherings (my husband has been at least once, but I haven't been able to make it yet), which will be helpful. While I have attended or been involved with a number of types of ritual from different groups, I am pretty woefully ignorant about Heathenry other than a general surface knowledge of some of the mythology.

 

We do have some source material (much of which I haven't read yet, though my husband has):

Penguin Classics editions of "Hrafnkel's Saga and other stories,"Seven Viking Romances," "Eyrbyggja Saga," "Njal's Saga," and "Orkneyinga Saga."

"The Poetic Edda," and "The Skalds," translated by Lee M. Hollander

"The Icelandic Saga" by Peter Hallberg, trans. by Paul Schach

"Edda" by Snorri Sturluson, trans. by Anthony Faulkes

"Volsunga Saga," trans. by William Morris

World Classics editions of "Erik the Red and other Icelandic sagas," and "The Kalevala."

"The Sagas of Icelanders," Viking edition with preface by Jane Smiley

 

As I said, she is coming at this from more of a Hellenic and Druidic background rather than Wicca/Wiccan-esque or ceremonial magic, which I think will be helpful.

[MercyA]

MercyA, you're right, this isn't what I'm looking for. Based on your sig line quote from Romans, I am going to presume you are a Christian. Your response is coming across the same as if someone posted asking for more information on the Methodist or Roman Catholic Church or any other Christian denomination (as happens many, many times on these boards) and having a non-Christian jump in to say, "I strongly, strongly advise you not to dabble in Christianity--it's very dangerous!" or even a Protestant saying, "I strongly, strongly advise you to stay away from the Roman Catholic Church---it's evil!" Frankly, it feels pretty rude. It would have been more respectful to at least open the conversation with a less condemnatory post---perhaps a question to find out more about why I was asking than to jump in with hob-nailed boots.

 

We are already a Neopagan family (more toward the Hellenic end of things, overall) and have been for many, many years, longer than she has been alive, so she has grown up as a Neopagan. This isn't some unusual tangent. At 16, she is feeling drawn to a different aspect within the Neopagan umbrella and I want to help guide her exploration in a responsible manner because I am well aware that there are groups and elements within any religion (including Christianity) that are not desirable. Knowing that there are some members on this forum who are practicing Heathens, I'm asking for suggestions from them as people who are more involved with that community. 

 

I'm sorry, Karen, I should have been more tactful, and I apologize for that. I did try to word my post carefully, but not carefully enough, it seems. 

 

If I had known you were a Neopagan yourself, I would not have posted. I should have thought to ask about your personal religious persuasion first.

Edited November 14, 2016 by MercyA

[Mergath]

Fair enough, Mergath, and I understand your response. 

 

I'm trying to think of an analogy that won't increase the offense already taken here (and will probably come up short, but I'll do my best). I guess from my perspective, it's as if someone said, "My daughter is thinking of taking up snake-charming" and then asked for resources to encourage that interest. If no one else responded, I'd feel a responsibility to say, "Hey, maybe that's not such a good idea," *especially* if I had some knowledge of snakes.

 

I have had concrete dealings with demons in the physical world. Call me a nutter if you'd like, but it's the truth. I think any manifestations of neopagan deities are demons. I do think it's dangerous. I don't think it's safe. Karen has said that she feels differently, and I'm not going to argue with her about it. 

 

Seriously, now. Try to imagine how it would make you feel if I said that I've had some involvement with Christianity, and I feel that Yahweh is a manifestation of pure evil.

 

I know you feel duty-bound to say these things, but believe me when I tell you that these kinds of comments only serve to drive people further and more irrevocably from Christianity.

[Mergath]

For now, general information for both of us. She said that she is feeling more drawn to the Norse mythology at this point and wants to learn more about what's out there in that community. We know of one practicing group locally that has invited us to gatherings (my husband has been at least once, but I haven't been able to make it yet), which will be helpful. While I have attended or been involved with a number of types of ritual from different groups, I am pretty woefully ignorant about Heathenry other than a general surface knowledge of some of the mythology.

 

We do have some source material (much of which I haven't read yet, though my husband has):

Penguin Classics editions of "Hrafnkel's Saga and other stories,"Seven Viking Romances," "Eyrbyggja Saga," "Njal's Saga," and "Orkneyinga Saga."

"The Poetic Edda," and "The Skalds," translated by Lee M. Hollander

"The Icelandic Saga" by Peter Hallberg, trans. by Paul Schach

"Edda" by Snorri Sturluson, trans. by Anthony Faulkes

"Volsunga Saga," trans. by William Morris

World Classics editions of "Erik the Red and other Icelandic sagas," and "The Kalevala."

"The Sagas of Icelanders," Viking edition with preface by Jane Smiley

 

As I said, she is coming at this from more of a Hellenic and Druidic background rather than Wicca/Wiccan-esque or ceremonial magic, which I think will be helpful.

 

I'm a Buddhist-Pagan, so I don't know how helpful I can be (hopefully someone can come along with more specific knowledge) but have you checked out The Asatru Alliance? It looks legit. http://www.asatru.org/

 

This book is supposed to be good, and it's from Llewellyn so shouldn't have any racist crap: https://www.amazon.com/Teutonic-Religion-Practices-Tradition-Llewellyns/dp/0875422608

 

I'm sure you're probably already aware of this, but be careful because there tends to sometimes be a bit of crossover between Asatru and white supremacist groups.

 

 

[KarenNC]

I'm a Buddhist-Pagan, so I don't know how helpful I can be (hopefully someone can come along with more specific knowledge) but have you checked out The Asatru Alliance? It looks legit. http://www.asatru.org/

 

This book is supposed to be good, and it's from Llewellyn so shouldn't have any racist crap: https://www.amazon.com/Teutonic-Religion-Practices-Tradition-Llewellyns/dp/0875422608

 

I'm sure you're probably already aware of this, but be careful because there tends to sometimes be a bit of crossover between Asatru and white supremacist groups.

 

 

 

Yeah, I'm aware of the cross-over fringe and we've had a lot of conversation about it, particularly in light of recent events, which is why I want to be very hands-on in helping her explore this and find groups and resources that are legit. It helps that she's fully aware that there are odd and sometimes dangerous extremist fringes in all religious groups, so is primed to look out for that.

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

[MercyA]

Seriously, now. Try to imagine how it would make you feel if I said that I've had some involvement with Christianity, and I feel that Yahweh is a manifestation of pure evil.

 

I know you feel duty-bound to say these things, but believe me when I tell you that these kinds of comments only serve to drive people further and more irrevocably from Christianity.

 

I appreciate your attempt to help me see things from another perspective. I know you are sincere and mean well, just as I do.

 

I do understand that I need to be very careful what I say, as a Christ follower. "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." I can only say what I think is best as the time, according to the need of the moment. It is inevitable that my words will sometimes cause offense. However, I wouldn't be too sure, if I were you, that speaking plain truth always and only drives people away from Christ. 

 

What I said is apparently not helpful to Karen, and I am sorry for that; perhaps it will be helpful to someone else. 

[KarenNC]

Fair enough, Mergath, and I understand your response. 

 

I'm trying to think of an analogy that won't increase the offense already taken here (and will probably come up short, but I'll do my best). I guess from my perspective, it's as if someone said, "My daughter is thinking of taking up snake-charming" and then asked for resources to encourage that interest. If no one else responded, I'd feel a responsibility to say, "Hey, maybe that's not such a good idea," *especially* if I had some knowledge of snakes.

 

I have had concrete dealings with demons in the physical world. Call me a nutter if you'd like, but it's the truth. I think any manifestations of neopagan deities are demons. I do think it's dangerous. I don't think it's safe. Karen has said that she feels differently, and I'm not going to argue with her about it. 

 

Just to let you know, saying, "I don't want to increase offense and I'm not going to argue but by the way all your deities are demons" is not really the way to go about opening lines of communication and, frankly, decreases the effectiveness of your witness. It was a gratuitous cheap shot.

[Ravin]

Some good resources for beginners can be found at Frigga's Web and  The Troth. I would recommend The Troth over Frigga's web largely because they have signed Declaration 127. I would also not recommend the Asatru Alliance because while they are not as explicitly racist as the Asatru Folk Assembly, they do have a history of leaning "Folkish" which in practical terms often amounts to the same thing. 

 

From the Asatru Alliance bylaws:

 

 

1. Asatru is the ethnic religion of the indigenous Northern European peoples. 

2. The Asatru Alliance is a free association of Independent kindreds seeking to preserve and protect the ancient faith of our ancestors. 

3. The Asatru Alliance is organized along tribal democratic lines, permitting the full expression of our religious opinions, opting for the sanctity of our Asatru faith. 

 

This is all pretty strong coding for "you can be as racist as you want, and if you aren't you can agree to disagree with those who are but be expected to play nice with them at Allthing."

 

And, here is what to most especially steer clear of:

 

The Asatru Folk Assembly. That's toxic waste right there, much as Westboro Baptist Church and the KKK are toxic in the Christian religion.

 

Here is a list of Kindreds and other organizations who have signed Declaration 127; any in your area would be worthwhile to network with if she is seeking community:

 

 

Declaration 127:

 

The organizations listed below represent a truly diverse set of voices within modern Heathenry. They represent national organizations, resource centers, local kindreds, as well as a plethora of authors and community leaders from every possible branch of our religion and walk of life. These independent organizations have signed this article due to a single shared interest.

 

To state their complete denunciation of, and disassociation from, the Asatru Folk Assembly.

 

The Asatru Folk Assembly (hereinafter referred to as the AFA) has a long and well-documented history of discrimination on the basis of ethnicity, sexuality, and gender identity. In a recent statement the AFA declared point blank that non-white and LGBT Heathens were not welcome in their tradition. While the undersigned organizations listed here fully recognize the AFA’s right to govern themselves as they see fit, and with full autonomy, we hereby exercise the same right.

 

We will not promote, associate, or do business with the AFA as an organization so long as they maintain these discriminatory policies.

 

The AFA’s views do not represent our communities. We hereby declare that we do not condone hatred or discrimination carried out in the name of our religion, and will no longer associate with those who do. We will not grant the tacit approval of silence in the name of frið, to those who would use our traditions to justify prejudice on the basis of race, nationality, orientation, or gender identity.

 

The AFA is free to stand for whatever principles it sees fit.

 

They are free to stand alone.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Ravin

[MercyA]

Just to let you know, saying, "I don't want to increase offense and I'm not going to argue but by the way all your deities are demons" is not really the way to go about opening lines of communication and, frankly, decreases the effectiveness of your witness. It was a gratuitous cheap shot.

 

I did not intend it that way at all, and I'm sorry that's how you see it. This is an open message board and the comment was not directed at you, although I can understand why you think it was. I am not trying to witness to you. As I said, had I known you were a Neopagan yourself, I would not have posted.

 

This is your thread, and if you would prefer me to bow out, I will. 

Edited November 14, 2016 by MercyA

[KarenNC]

I did not intend it that way at all, and I'm sorry that's how you see it. This is an open message board and the comment was not directed at you, although I can understand why you think it was. I am not trying to witness to you. As I said, had I known you were a Neopagan yourself, I would not have posted.

 

This is your thread, and if you would prefer me to bow out, I will. 

 

You're welcome to stay if you are interested in learning. :)

[MercyA]

nm 

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by MercyA

[Joules]

Following along, I'm embarrassed to say that I thought Heathen was a synonym for Pagan.  I love how much I learn here.

[bibiche]

LOL, Karen. Yes, I'm interested in learning. May I say that I hope you are, too?  ;)

Clearly she is, which is why she posted the request for links! ;)

 

Thank you, Karen, for posting this..  Would you be so kind to post more info, if you have it, on the Neopaganism your family practices now? It sounds fascinating and I am interested in learning more (as I am sure DS will be). :)

[KarenNC]

Some good resources for beginners can be found at Frigga's Web and  The Troth. I would recommend The Troth over Frigga's web largely because they have signed Declaration 127. I would also not recommend the Asatru Alliance because while they are not as explicitly racist as the Asatru Folk Assembly, they do have a history of leaning "Folkish" which in practical terms often amounts to the same thing. 

 

From the Asatru Alliance bylaws:

 

This is all pretty strong coding for "you can be as racist as you want, and if you aren't you can agree to disagree with those who are but be expected to play nice with them at Allthing."

 

And, here is what to most especially steer clear of:

 

The Asatru Folk Assembly. That's toxic waste right there, much as Westboro Baptist Church and the KKK are toxic in the Christian religion.

 

Here is a list of Kindreds and other organizations who have signed Declaration 127; any in your area would be worthwhile to network with if she is seeking community:

 

Thanks so much, Ravin! This is exactly the kind of guidance I was looking for. I'm familiar with the code words and areas to avoid in many areas of the Neopagan world, but I'm just not up on Heathenry. I am encouraged that the local group is led by a gay couple, and my husband says they seem very grounded. We'll have to ask about whether they have signed the declaration or are part of a group that has. I passed the info onto my daughter and she said she had already heard to be leery of "Folkish" as well as "Odinist" groups.

[Mergath]

LOL, Karen. Yes, I'm interested in learning. May I say that I hope you are, too?  ;)

 

Why in the world would she have asked if she WASN'T interested in learning more?

 

I'm so confused right now.

[MercyA]

nm 

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by MercyA

[Ravin]

I'll just reiterate that the Troth's resources are excellent, including their website and the books they have published.

[Happy2BaMom]

As a practicing pagan (so can't help a whole lot with specific heathen references), I did want to pipe up and say (thinking in terms of education here) that I have always received guidance/instruction from my pagan teachers about being careful with any deity worship and ensuring that deity is an inspiration for positive good in one's life and the world. It's now like people become pagans (or heathens) and suddenly everything goes (even though I know it is popular in some Christian circles to display it as such....and I was a Baptist for 12 years, so I know what I am talking about).

 

I would also say that Christians are not immune to being caught worshipping the wrong powers, including many worldly ones. That is not meant to be a slam against Christians, I am more trying to point out that every worshipper in every religion has to retain critical thought and observation over his/her own experiences and resulting behaviors.  It is not a matter of "white hats, black hats". 

[Mergath]

Following along, I'm embarrassed to say that I thought Heathen was a synonym for Pagan.  I love how much I learn here.

 

There are many groups that fall under the larger umbrella of Neopaganism. :) Here's a list, if you're interested in researching further:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Neopagan_movements#Ethnic

 

Some of them have reconstructed ancient religious practices, but there's a lot of us who are just more broadly and eclectically Pagan, too.

 

Some people do use "Heathen" as a synonym for Pagan, both affectionately and in a derogatory way.

[Charlie]

Why in the world would she have asked if she WASN'T interested in learning more?

 

I'm so confused right now.

 

I'm guessing Mercy wants the OP to learn about Christianity. Because Jesus. And Salvation.

 

Mercy, your comments might be better explored on a different thread, so this one can stay on course. I would enjoy talking about your concerns with you. But on a different thread. So this one doesn't get highjacked. Because that's a courtesy others extend. Unless it's okay every time someone asks about Apologia or BJU science, it's appropriate for others to step in and gently warn them about the dangers of being anti-science. But I'm guessing that's frowned upon here.

[MercyA]

nm 

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by MercyA

[MercyA]

I'm guessing Mercy wants the OP to learn about Christianity. Because Jesus. And Salvation.

 

Mercy, your comments might be better explored on a different thread, so this one can stay on course. I would enjoy talking about your concerns with you. But on a different thread. So this one doesn't get highjacked. Because that's a courtesy others extend. Unless it's okay every time someone asks about Apologia or BJU science, it's appropriate for others to step in and gently warn them about the dangers of being anti-science. But I'm guessing that's frowned upon here.

 

I said I wasn't trying to witness to Karen, and I meant it in all sincerity.

 

The OP said I was welcome to stay. If she asks me to leave, I will be happy to do so.

 

And just FYI, I am not a young-earth Creationist, so I would be perfectly happy with someone gently warning others about those particular curriculums on any thread.  :)

[Mergath]

I think you knew what I meant, but I'll spell it out, if you need me to:

 

She said I am welcome to stay if I am interested in learning, presumably about her beliefs and/or related beliefs. I hope that she is also open to learning about beliefs other than those of neopaganism.

 

It was just intended to be a brief, friendly response. That's all.

 

I was assuming you weren't really being so rude.

 

I'm not sure if your intent is to cause enough strife to get the thread deleted so the links will be gone or what, but this would be a good place for you to bow out. I think we all know you aren't genuinely interested in learning about Pagan beliefs. If you want to proselytize from a Christian perspective, you should start a new thread.

 

 

[Joules]

There are many groups that fall under the larger umbrella of Neopaganism. :) Here's a list, if you're interested in researching further:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Neopagan_movements#Ethnic

 

Some of them have reconstructed ancient religious practices, but there's a lot of us who are just more broadly and eclectically Pagan, too.

 

Some people do use "Heathen" as a synonym for Pagan, both affectionately and in a derogatory way.

 

Thanks!  When you say you are broadly and eclectically Pagan, is that a synonym for Neopagan?  I guess what I'm asking are there both Pagans and "new" Pagans (Neopagans), or are all Pagans who live now Neopagans?  (It sounds like a stupid question, but I'm not sure.)

 

ETA: Wait a minute, I just realized that you said you were Buddhist-Pagan, so maybe not "new."  It occurs to me as I read the article they are referring to reconstructed religions that had died out.  Things like Buddhism and Hinduism would not really be "neo" since they have been practiced all along.  (It's on my mind as dh is visiting Hindu temples and shrines in India this week.)

Edited November 14, 2016 by Joules

[MercyA]

I was assuming you weren't really being so rude.

 

I'm not sure if your intent is to cause enough strife to get the thread deleted so the links will be gone or what, but this would be a good place for you to bow out. I think we all know you aren't genuinely interested in learning about Pagan beliefs. If you want to proselytize from a Christian perspective, you should start a new thread.

 

Oh, for heaven's sake. 

 

I'll go back and delete the post. I believe you if you say it was rude. I am genuinely trying to do the best I can to respond to all of your posts.

 

No, I am not trying to cause strife.

 

No, I am not interested in seeing links deleted. I am not and have no reason to be afraid of information.

 

Yes, I was interested enough in "heathenry" to look it up myself before posting here.

 

No, I am not interested in proselytizing. I am interested in people being made aware that there are real spiritual entities active in the world, and they are not all benign.

 

I like you, Mergath, you know that, and I assume you have good intentions. Please assume the same of me.

[Mergath]

Thanks!  When you say you are broadly and eclectically Pagan, is that a synonym for Neopagan?  I guess what I'm asking are there both Pagans and "new" Pagans (Neopagans), or are all Pagans who live now Neopagans?  (It sounds like a stupid question, but I'm not sure)

 

I can't speak for everyone, of course, but in my circles "Pagan" and "Neopagan" mean pretty much the same thing if we're speaking about modern day religion. Some of us just prefer the former because Neopagan sounds sort of... I don't know. Academic?

[Charlie]

Oh, for heaven's sake. 

 

I'll go back and delete the post. I believe you if you say it was rude. I am genuinely trying to do the best I can to respond to all of your posts.

 

No, I am not trying to cause strife.

 

No, I am not interested in seeing links deleted. I am not and have no reason to be afraid of information.

 

Yes, I was interested enough in "heathenry" to look it up myself before posting here.

 

No, I am not interested in proselytizing. I am interested in people being made aware that there are real spiritual entities active in the world, and they are not all benign.

 

I like you, Mergath, you know that, and I assume you have good intentions. Please assume the same of me.

 

I'm curious what makes you so sure, but this isn't the thread. Is there another one? Would you start one?

 

[Mergath]

Oh, for heaven's sake. 

 

I'll go back and delete the post. I believe you if you say it was rude. I am genuinely trying to do the best I can to respond to all of your posts.

 

No, I am not trying to cause strife.

 

No, I am not interested in seeing links deleted. I am not and have no reason to be afraid of information.

 

Yes, I was interested enough in "heathenry" to look it up myself before posting here.

 

No, I am not interested in proselytizing. I am interested in people being made aware that there are real spiritual entities active in the world, and they are not all benign.

 

I like you, Mergath, you know that, and I assume you have good intentions. Please assume the same of me.

 

I never assumed you had anything but good intentions. But at the same time, I don't think you realize how rude it seems to us non-Christians, and how tired we are of this kind of thing. Imagine if every time someone asked for a Christian resource I jumped in and told them their God is a demon or whatever. None of us are unaware that Christians think other religions are bad or false. Hearing it over and over just makes us that much more determined to dig in our heels and never, ever take Christianity seriously. I'm not exaggerating that. I would be so much more open to Christian ideas if it wasn't for Christians. Please hear what I am saying.

 

[Joules]

I can't speak for everyone, of course, but in my circles "Pagan" and "Neopagan" mean pretty much the same thing if we're speaking about modern day religion. Some of us just prefer the former because Neopagan sounds sort of... I don't know. Academic?

 

Yeah, it does sound weird, and I've never heard anyone call themselves that...just Pagan or Wiccan (or now Heathen).  It may be fancier for a sign...kinda like "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" when everyone just says Mormon or LDS.  

[Tanaqui]

Imagine if every time someone asked for a Christian resource I jumped in and told them their God is a demon or whatever.

 

Or - from the atheist side - if I popped up and pointed out that I personally find Bible stories highly contradictory and frequently immoral. I mean, I could say that... but I'm not going to do that all the time because it's amazingly rude to insult other people's religions. Nobody needs that.

 

(Edit: Well, I guess I did it just now, but I usually don't think much about other people's religions at all. Most religions ultimately stumble upon the ethic of reciprocity (the "golden rule") and I figure that's a moral code we can all agree with, anyway. That's the important thing.)

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by Tanaqui

[MercyA]

I never assumed you had anything but good intentions. But at the same time, I don't think you realize how rude it seems to us non-Christians, and how tired we are of this kind of thing. Imagine if every time someone asked for a Christian resource I jumped in and told them their God is a demon or whatever. None of us are unaware that Christians think other religions are bad or false. Hearing it over and over just makes us that much more determined to dig in our heels and never, ever take Christianity seriously. I'm not exaggerating that. I would be so much more open to Christian ideas if it wasn't for Christians. Please hear what I am saying.

 

I understand, Mergath, and I am listening to you and pondering what you are saying, truly.

 

If I am perceived as unkind, or rude, or argumentative, I regret that, and will try to do better. But I will say that the integral message of Christianity--that Jesus is the Way--is going to be offensive to some no matter how I say it.

[bibiche]

I understand, Mergath, and I am listening to you and pondering what you are saying, truly.

 

If I am perceived as unkind, or rude, or argumentative, I regret that, and will try to do better. But I will say that the integral message of Christianity--that Jesus is the Way--is going to be offensive to some no matter how I say it.

Mercy, why not start your own "Jesus is the way" thread and leave this one? I am sure we would all be grateful.

[The Girls' Mom]

Chalk me up as another that didn't realize that Heathens were a particular branch of Paganism. I've always heard it used to refer to a general category of non-religious.  (but then again, I live in the Bible belt)  

 

Now I'm curious if the Twenty One Pilots song is referring to the particular or general term.  

[MercyA]

I'm curious what makes you so sure, but this isn't the thread. Is there another one? Would you start one?

 

I've talked about it here in the past. Anyone who is interested is welcome to PM me, but I will probably only go into detail with long-time forum members or those I know well.

[MercyA]

Mercy, why not start your own "Jesus is the way" thread and leave this one? I am sure we would all be grateful.

 

Okay, bibiche. You win. I tried to phrase my response to Mergath as succinctly and inoffensively as possible, and have still managed to arouse this response from you. 

 

Peace to all, bowing out.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Wait, there are white supremacist pagans? This doesn't compute for me, probably because I associate paganism/New Age stuff with the liberal end of the spectrum. (No offence intended if I used any terms incorrectly.)

[KarenNC]

LOL, Karen. Yes, I'm interested in learning. May I say that I hope you are, too?  ;)

 

I'm always interested in learning!

 

I was raised incredibly "there every time the doors are open plus devotionals daily" Calvinist by a father who really wanted to be a minister and practiced on us regularly, then our household moved to Assembly of God in my late teens, and then I moved to the Episcopal Church as a young adult for several years, where I was involved heavily in altar guild and did three years of their lay EfM (Education for Ministry http://efm.sewanee.edu/about-efm/about-efm)study program prior to realizing in my early 30s I was at heart not Christian. I have read the Bible several times in several different translations, including the Apocrypha/deuterocanonical material, a fair number of things by assorted authors including C.S. Lewis, Paul Tillich, Karl Barth, Matthew Fox, John Shelby Spong, Dominic Crossan, Charles Spurgeon, and Frances Schaeffer, and took some Christian theology classes in college. I probably used the Oxford Study Bible the most, but I am interested in reading Dr. Amy-Jill Levine's "The Jewish Annotated New Testament" because I am a fan-girl of hers (great speaker!). :) I required my daughter to do a course on Biblical literacy using "The Bible and Its Influence," as well as read the Tanakh, the Protestant New Testament, and the deuterocanonical books from a Roman Catholic Bible, because she needs to be conversant with it as part of Western culture (she also had to read "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Jonathan Edwards). I'm well aware of the Great Commission, but have pretty strong opinions on how one can and cannot effectively carry that out. Overall, I think I'm pretty conversant with most forms of Christianity, though I know the least about Orthodox, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, and Seventh-Day Adventist.

 

Also spent a year in deep study with a rabbi for possible conversion to Reform Judaism but didn't because, in the end, the call wasn't there (and that helped me realize I wasn't at heart a monotheist).  We've stayed tangentially involved with the synagogue for about 18 years, however. In the end, we're at home in a Unitarian Universalist Church for most of those 18 years, with a personal spiritual practice heavily informed by Hellenic Neopaganism, Druidry (ADF and OBOD influenced), Reform Judaism, Shinto, and Zen Buddhism, so somewhat eclectic. ;)

 

For some of my favorite books related to Neopaganism that might be of interest:

"Christians as the Romans Saw Them" by Robert Lewis Wilken is an interesting look at how the early Christian movement was viewed by their contemporaries.

pretty much anything by British historian Ronald Hutton, but especially "Triumph of the Moon: a history of modern Pagan Witchcraft." It talks about all the societal strands in the 17th and 18th centuries which led up to the appearance of Gerald Gardner and Wicca, then how that movement split and morphed, crossing the ocean to mix with radical American feminism and was then imported back to Britain. Fascinating stuff detailing the rise of a religious movement. I see a lot of parallels between this and the way Christianity developed and morphed in the first century.

"A World Full of Gods: an inquiry into Polytheism" is a nice discussion some of the underpinnings polytheistic theologies and philosophies  by John Michael Greer

Edited November 14, 2016 by KarenNC

[Joules]

Wait, there are white supremacist pagans? This doesn't compute for me, probably because I associate paganism/New Age stuff with the liberal end of the spectrum. (No offence intended if I used any terms incorrectly.)

 

I can see that. If you look at the page that Mergath sent me to, you'll see the group you are thinking of is just one of many pagan religions.  It's much more diverse than I realized.

[KarenNC]

No, I am not interested in proselytizing. I am interested in people being made aware that there are real spiritual entities active in the world, and they are not all benign.

 

MercyA, I think you will find that the majority of folks who are non-Christian (I extend this past just those groups that self-designate as Pagan or Neopagan) are well aware that there are myriad real spiritual entities active in the world, and that while some may choose to act beneficently toward humanity at times, some may also choose to act malevolently (and some likely just don't bother to pay any attention at all). I have not found any theological idea that my Gods are omnibeneficial (and, honestly, from the point of view of humanity, I'd say many of the acts of the God of Christianity as described over the centuries don't always seem to meet that criteria either). The vast majority of us really don't believe it's all fluffy bunnies, pretty crystals, and rainbows! (there's always the exception ;) )

[KarenNC]

Wait, there are white supremacist pagans? This doesn't compute for me, probably because I associate paganism/New Age stuff with the liberal end of the spectrum. (No offence intended if I used any terms incorrectly.)

 

Yep, there are power-tripping (insert any of the many words I would use to describe folks with this attitude but can't because of polite company) in all religions. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on these types (ie KKK and Westboro, among others).

[Rosie_0801]

I'm going to post this again, not because it'll be any use to the OP, but because it sounds like a few people on this thread haven't read it and might want to :)

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/455100-ask-a-pagan-thread/page-1

[Guest]

MercyA, your posts are violations of board policy. Please bow out of the thread permanently.

 

I'm leaving the posts up because there's good information in the responses that won't make sense if I remove them.

 

SWB

[KarenNC]

Thanks!  When you say you are broadly and eclectically Pagan, is that a synonym for Neopagan?  I guess what I'm asking are there both Pagans and "new" Pagans (Neopagans), or are all Pagans who live now Neopagans?  (It sounds like a stupid question, but I'm not sure.)

 

ETA: Wait a minute, I just realized that you said you were Buddhist-Pagan, so maybe not "new."  It occurs to me as I read the article they are referring to reconstructed religions that had died out.  Things like Buddhism and Hinduism would not really be "neo" since they have been practiced all along.  (It's on my mind as dh is visiting Hindu temples and shrines in India this week.)

 

Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, Jainism, and various indigenous religions, etc are not usually grouped under the term "Pagan" (note this is "big-P" Pagan to differentiate talking about modern religious groups rather than "small-p" pagan, the ancient pre-Christian religions).

 

You'll find a variety of terminology. I prefer to use Neopagan for pretty much the reasons you mention. The majority of religions grouped under the "Pagan" or "Neopagan" umbrella in America, at least, are all new religions (like Wicca which is from the 20th century) or to various degrees reconstructions/revivals/re-creations/re-imaginings of various pre-Christian (small-p) pagan religions, so it feels more accurate to me. I also find it particularly appropriate since I am not trying to re-create as exactly as possible the worship of the Hellenic Gods as practiced by someone who lived in Homer's time or in Alexander's. I don't have that worldview or that cultural support, and society is just flat different, which is why Christianity as practiced today is not identical to that practiced in 33 CE or 1517 CE or even 1959 CE. Societies and religions change over time. My practice is influenced by the society in which I live and my modern worldview. Hopefully, it bears some resemblance to what it might have looked like if the practices had not died out/been destroyed, while using what we know and learn about those ancient practices as a base from which to grow.

[KarenNC]

Ravin, I listed the resources for source material we have on hand. Would you suggest any of them as a starting place, or is there another resource you would particularly recommend as a starting point for learning more of the mythology?