down time at super selective schools

[rbk mama]

We were talking recently about families we know whose children are in huge amounts of extracurricular activities, or whose extracurricular activities take up huge amounts of time.  My kids do well academically, do a few extracurricular things they enjoy, and spend a lot of time in relaxed conversation or some quiet pastime.  DS will have perfect or near perfect scores in every exam, including many (14-16) APs.  I wonder, when I hear about families like I mentioned, if the climate at "lottery" schools is best suited for the student who is used to a packed out schedule and thrives on that.  DS is very bright, and very self-driven, but this boy likes his down time.  He's in 11th, and we are paring down the college list (he wants to go into engineering).  I'm wondering if, even if he were to get into a lottery school, if that might not be the best fit for him.   Those of you familiar with super selective schools - what do you think?  (And I realize they are not all the same - experience with specific schools would be nice to hear about.)  How does one find out this sort of information about a college environment?

[regentrude]

Not all highly selective schools have the same climate.

 

My DD attends a super selective school that has a reputation for insane work load. The school culture is to take a masochistic pride in being overworked and where you earn cred among fellow students by taking the hardest classes, working as much as humanly possible and still succeeding. As she phrased it: if you still manage to sleep 8 hours, you picked too easy classes. She has very little down time; her academic schedule is extremely tough since she is doing a double major and the school won't allow an extension past 4 years.

. 

Even among top tier schools, this school is extreme and not the norm.

 

OTOH, even among "normal " schools, down time is often at a premium for students if they are taking a large class load in a challenging major. I don't think an engineering major with 18 credit hours has much down time even at a public uni.

 

Edited November 7, 2016 by regentrude

[G5052]

OTOH, even among "normal " schools, down time is often at a premium for students if they are taking a large class load in a challenging major. I don't think an engineering major with 18 credit hours has much down time even at a public uni.

 

Crazy person that I am, I took 18 credit hours a semester with a double degree in computer science and math. I took off Saturday night to be with friends, but that was it. We generally just sat around and talked and went to bed at a reasonable hour.

 

Some of my junior and senior computer science projects required 20 hours or more a week to complete in addition to class time. Graduate school was even more.

[bettyandbob]

 

OTOH, even among "normal " schools, down time is often at a premium for students if they are taking a large class load in a challenging major. I don't think an engineering major with 18 credit hours has much down time even at a public uni.

 

:iagree:  engineering tends to be a 5 year degree crammed into 4 years, I wouldn't expect down time. The only thing that I would see providing some down time is if the student went in with enough dual enrollment that the few gen ed requirements the student had were covered, giving the student a chance at a 15 credit semester. 

[SeaConquest]

I agree that this varies widely by both university and major. As a dual humanities major at a selective liberal arts college, I had the time to work 30+ hours per week managing a health food store, participate in Army ROTC and the Army Reserve, and have an active social life. I managed to graduate magna cum laude/PBK. I don't think I could have done the same as a computer science or engineering major.

[GoodGrief]

My daughter is at Princeton. She's one of those packed schedule kids, but, to be honest, she doesn't really talk a lot about what her classmates are doing, so I am not sure. I stalk an unofficial college Tumblr page, and it sounds like there is a fair amount of partying there according to the chatter on that page, so I have to assume there is SOME downtime ;-)

 

Editing to add a couple of things now that I re-read you are interested in specific school experiences. Princeton encourages a lighter academic load first semester of freshman year for adjustment purposes. My daughter called crying a couple weeks in because she thought it was "too easy", and got permission to add a class. I also have the impression that the school is very interested in seeing the students succeed, and provides much support so that they can do so. One of my daughter's roommates had a serious adjustment issue very early on, went back home, and can return to the school in the spring or even next year. I think that is pretty neat.

 

Honestly, I think wherever he ends up, he will be fine with his preferences. I can't imagine any college that is forcing extracurriculars on people.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Gr8lander

[Gwen in VA]

Visit colleges. Visit lots of them. Talk with not only the admissions people and the tour guides (almost always students) but any other student you run into. TALK! Ask about why they chose that school. Ask about what other schools they looked at. Ask about what they like least and most about the school.

 

Read the bulletin boards -- they are an interesting window into what is going on on campus.

 

Read the school newspaper.

 

Do you know any students who go to colleges your student is remotely interested in? Talk with them.

 

The more information you get about the wide range of experiences people have, the better. And do be aware of stereotypes of colleges -- often the stereotype exists for a reason!

 

But the best thing you can do is VISIT, VISIT, VISIT. And do visit schools that are on the "unlikely" list -- they will help your student become aware of aspects of college life he likes and dislikes, even if you know from the get-go that he won't really attend that school. Visit rural schools, urban schools, small schools, big schools, specialty schools, high-powered schools, laid-back schools.....

 

 

 

 

 

[JanetC]

The other thing that can affect stress is the school calendar.

 

My daughter was at dual enrollment at the local community college, which is on a quarter schedule. Fall wasn't extra stressful, but the spring (3rd) quarter tended to be. Winter and spring quarters tended to run together with only short breaks between them and by June kids were really tired.

[Bootsie]

I think that the stress level of being busy when a full-time, on campus college student is different than when living at home.  For students who live on campus, there is no commute time, no shopping for food, often no cleaning or other chores besides washing clothes, etc.  Even a 15 minute one-way commute, twice a day, five days a week, adds up to 2 1/2 hours per week--about the same amount of time as being in class each week for a 3 credit class.  Also, the college student is surrounded by other people who are on a similar schedule with busiest times (mid-terms, finals, etc.) falling at the same time.  I think it is easier when everyone around you is in the same boat.  About this time of semester, I know a lot of college students that are feeling the stress of being busy--but they can look and say that this semester will be over in a month--and then they get four weeks of a totally undisturbed break. 

[Hoggirl]

My ds's school is known for its "duck syndrome." Meaning that students are expected to have a calm, outward appearance, yet underneath the surface they are all paddling like crazy. Not sure how accurate that is. I think ds works pretty hard, but I know he has down time. He goes to all the home football games and hangs out with friends. It's somewhat cyclical, I think. There are definitely times during the quarter that he has no downtime (midterms, finals, extra work/expectations for an extracurricular activity), When things aren't in high gear, I think he usually has down time on the weekends. I beat into his head the mantra, "work before play," from a young age, so when he takes his down time, he has definitely earned it. Those who take the downtime first and procrastinate are the ones who wind up in trouble, IME. How much downtime does your ds need? Engineering is challenging because the sequence of classes is usually pretty set and one must hit the ground running first semester to stay on track. So, I think there is less time for adjusting to college life in general. I also think that whether the school has a collaborative or cut throat environment plays a role. Ds's school is not cut throat at all, but I would imagine that in such an environment there would be the sense of always needing to do more, which could inhibit taking that necessary down time.

[Frances]

The other thing that can affect stress is the school calendar.

 

My daughter was at dual enrollment at the local community college, which is on a quarter schedule. Fall wasn't extra stressful, but the spring (3rd) quarter tended to be. Winter and spring quarters tended to run together with only short breaks between them and by June kids were really tired.

I also think the quarter system is more intense due to the greater number of courses taken each year. My son did semester classes at a local LAC in high school, but his college is on quarters. At the LAC, students took 4 regular classes max each semester with maybe some additional partial music, PE, or science lab credits. At his university, most students take a similar number of classes each quarter, but he said in addition to averaging four more classes per year, almost always, the quarter classes cover more material, in more depth than any of the LAC semester classes he had.

[regentrude]

The other thing that can affect stress is the school calendar.

My daughter was at dual enrollment at the local community college, which is on a quarter schedule. Fall wasn't extra stressful, but the spring (3rd) quarter tended to be. Winter and spring quarters tended to run together with only short breaks between them and by June kids were really tired.

 

Absolutely. This is DD's experience. The long stretch of winter+spring quarter with only one week spring break between them is tough.

 

Plus, classes on the quarter system move at break neck speed because instructors still cover the same amount of material as they would in a semester class. One of her courses used a book where it was recommended to select 10 chapters to cover over the course of a 14 week semester. Her professor covered the entire 14 chapter book in a 10 week quarter.

[JanetC]

At the LAC, students took 4 regular classes max each semester with maybe some additional partial music, PE, or science lab credits. At his university, most students take a similar number of classes each quarter, but he said in addition to averaging four more classes per year, almost always, the quarter classes cover more material, in more depth than any of the LAC semester classes he had.

 

I don't think it's number of courses - I took 5 classes a semester at highly-competitive school, which was the norm. 18 credits was the max allowed, which could be 6, 3-credit classes. Lab classes could be 4 credits, though.

 

3 classes per quarter/trimester is the typical at my daughter's schools.

Edited November 8, 2016 by JanetC

[regentrude]

I also think the quarter system is more intense due to the greater number of courses taken each year. My son did semester classes at a local LAC in high school, but his college is on quarters. At the LAC, students took 4 regular classes max each semester with maybe some additional partial music, PE, or science lab credits. At his university, most students take a similar number of classes each quarter, but he said in addition to averaging four more classes per year, almost always, the quarter classes cover more material, in more depth than any of the LAC semester classes he had.

 

I don't think it is number of classes either. In order to finish a in 4 years, our students need to complete at least 16 credits per semester. That is either 4 four hour courses (which works only in the beginning, because most upper level classes are 3 hours), or more typical 5-6 three hour courses each semester.

With 4 classes per semester, students will need 5 years+ to finish their degrees which require 128 credit hours.

Edited November 8, 2016 by regentrude

[rbk mama]

Well, DS may need a reality check about how much free time he will have regardless of where he attends.  We had several friends at UMich who were in engineering and part of the same Christian campus group with us, and they were all significantly involved - in leadership positions that were fairly time-demanding, so I didn't get the impression that they were struggling to find time outside of their academic work.  And they all graduated in 4-5 years. 

 

I feel confident DS can manage the academic load of a good engineering program - most of the classes, especially physics and math, he finds exciting and fun to study.  And his high school academic load has been fairly heavy.  I think I am asking about something a bit more vague.  Maybe the type of person who attends a super selective university.  This DS is competitive (on the basketball court and in an exam room), but also laid back in terms of how he schedules his life.  He loves music and spends a long time each day improvising on his piano, as well as researching and discussing theological questions.  In that way, he is not a typical "overachiever," racing from one intense activity to another.  Can he survive 4-5 years of hectic university life with very little free time?  Yes, he could, but I think he would be happier with more. 

 

 

[Frances]

At the LAC my son took classes at in high school, all classes are 1 credit each, regardless of the actual number of hours of class each week, and you need 32 credits to graduate. Four regular classes per semester is the maximum allowed, so only eight per year, but you can receive additional partial credit for PE, music, and lab classes. My undergraduate LAC was the same, as is the highly selective one my niece now attends. Although I'm sure there are lots of different systems out there for semester schools and lots of variation. And perhaps unusual, at my undergrad LAC, classes such as math, science, and foreign languages that met for significantly more hours per week earned no more credit than humanities classes that met far less frequently.

 

At my son's current university, most classes are four credits each with some language and math classes being worth five credits. Most science lab classes are separate from lecture and vary in the number of credits depending on the number of lab and lab lecture hours. Since 180 credits are needed to graduate, most students take 16 credits or four courses per quarter or twelve per year. It's my understanding that several years prior, most humanities and social science classes at his university were worth only three credits, so many students averaged five classes per term or 15 classes per year.

 

And at least in my son's experience comparing his two schools, they covered just as much, and often much more in his quarter classes compared to the semester classes. So at least for him, eight semester classes per year was significantly less work than 12 quarter classes per year now. But of course there are so many differences between schools that others could have very different experiences.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Frances

[snowbeltmom]

Well, DS may need a reality check about how much free time he will have regardless of where he attends.  We had several friends at UMich who were in engineering and part of the same Christian campus group with us, and they were all significantly involved - in leadership positions that were fairly time-demanding, so I didn't get the impression that they were struggling to find time outside of their academic work.  And they all graduated in 4-5 years. 

 

I feel confident DS can manage the academic load of a good engineering program - most of the classes, especially physics and math, he finds exciting and fun to study.  And his high school academic load has been fairly heavy.  I think I am asking about something a bit more vague.  Maybe the type of person who attends a super selective university.  This DS is competitive (on the basketball court and in an exam room), but also laid back in terms of how he schedules his life.  He loves music and spends a long time each day improvising on his piano, as well as researching and discussing theological questions.  In that way, he is not a typical "overachiever," racing from one intense activity to another.  Can he survive 4-5 years of hectic university life with very little free time?  Yes, he could, but I think he would be happier with more. 

Kids at super selective schools also find time for downtime.  I think that the kids who have more downtime have the following characteristics:

1. Excellent time management skills

2. Attend all professor lectures

3. Go to professor office hours when needed

4. Get a good nights sleep each night

 

Good luck with your decision.

[Nan in Mass]

Quarters ... youngest has midterms at about the third week. If you get sick, you are probably going to have trouble recovering. Youngest is pretty tired by the end of the year. There are advantages to the system but it can be intense.

 

Nan

[angela in ohio]

My oldest daughter is at Olin. It's pretty much what regentrude described: earning street cred by taking on more and working an insane amount. Student services has educational campaigns on campus about how necessary it is to sleep sometimes. :D Students came in with every AP they could get, near perfect SAT scores, etc. They are used to working hard.

 

We are constantly busy with something, so dd is used to that environment. Their down time is studying while watching a movie, attending Hackathons all weekend, starting more clubs, starting companies, etc. Dd routinely takes 18-20+ credit hours. Her friends who are pre-med are doing more even.

 

I would think someone could fit in who wants to do less, by taking the minimum classes required to graduate and not joining a lot of other activities.  It could still be tough, because the courses themselves require so much more work than at a typical university.

 

My middle dd got into Olin, but that wasn't the environment she was looking for, so she went to Michigan. Still tough, but you can choose to have more of a life outside of school. She has a boyfriend and was able to keep her friends and see them, and she has some free time to relax.  They also took her year+ of transfer credits from DE (most selective schools don't do that), so she only has to take 3-4 classes a semester.

Edited November 8, 2016 by angela in ohio

[rbk mama]

My oldest daughter is at Olin. It's pretty much what regentrude described: earning street cred by taking on more and working an insane amount. Student services has educational campaigns on campus about how necessary it is to sleep sometimes. :D Students came in with every AP they could get, near perfect SAT scores, etc. They are used to working hard.

 

We are constantly busy with something, so dd is used to that environment. Their down time is studying while watching a movie, attending Hackathons all weekend, starting more clubs, starting companies, etc. Dd routinely takes 18-20+ credit hours. Her friends who are pre-med are doing more even.

 

I would think someone could fit in who wants to do less, by taking the minimum classes required to graduate and not joining a lot of other activities.  It could still be tough, because the courses themselves require so much more work than at a typical university.

 

My middle dd got into Olin, but that wasn't the environment she was looking for, so she went to Michigan. Still tough, but you can choose to have more of a life outside of school. She has a boyfriend and was able to keep her friends and see them, and she has some free time to relax.  They also took her year+ of transfer credits from DE (most selective schools don't do that), so she only has to take 3-4 classes a semester.

 

Thank you!  This is the type of information I was hoping to gather.  U of Chicago and Olin most likely won't be on the list. :001_smile: 

[snowbeltmom]

Thank you!  This is the type of information I was hoping to gather.  U of Chicago and Olin most likely won't be on the list. :001_smile:

Before you cross any school off the list, I would visit to try to get a first-hand impression.  You are going to find very competitive students who overload on credit hours at every university or spend most of their waking time studying.  However, not every student at that university is going to fall into that category.

 

Fwiw, my kids have a couple of friends who are currently at the U of Chicago. They have time to devote hours a day to their extracurricular activity and are both very happy there and feel that they have a good balance in their lives between academics and social/extracurriculars. 

 

I am not saying that other experiences are not valid, because they certainly are.  However, not everyone is going to have the same experience and your son should visit schools and decide for himself which schools are good fits.

[rbk mama]

Before you cross any school off the list, I would visit to try to get a first-hand impression.  You are going to find very competitive students who overload on credit hours at every university or spend most of their waking time studying.  However, not every student at that university is going to fall into that category.

 

Fwiw, my kids have a couple of friends who are currently at the U of Chicago. They have time to devote hours a day to their extracurricular activity and are both very happy there and feel that they have a good balance in their lives between academics and social/extracurriculars. 

 

I am not saying that other experiences are not valid, because they certainly are.  However, not everyone is going to have the same experience and your son should visit schools and decide for himself which schools are good fits.

 

OK, so this is my DS's argument against visiting:  He is skeptical that you can predict what your personal experience will be based on speaking with a few people (or even several people) on campus.  At of U of Chicago, for example, he might run into your kids' friends and have one impression, or he might only run into other students who have zero down time and spend all of their time studying, with few hours of sleep.  He's also skeptical that those students who are stressed would actually own up to that (as in the duck syndrome mentioned earlier.) 

 

I should say also that this DS has lived most of his life in Asia (we're US expats, moved to Asia when DS was very young), and just about ANY university campus looks pretty amazing compared to where we live.  Plus, we are used to not having many options.  For most of his life there's been one kind of cheese available, one kind of bread, one option for basketball, very limited options in which to pursue music, etc.  A lot of what people talk about when they compare colleges - the size, the location (urban/rural etc), feels unimportant to him.  And this DC is very different from my others in that he really doesn't care one whit what anyone else thinks about him - feels zero social pressure.  So any argument for getting a feel for a place holds no weight for him.  He believes that in any university with a good academic program, he will find interesting people to hang out with.  He's really just interested in the strength of the academic program.  Period.  And his parents are concerned about that in addition to finances.  So that leaves us with a ridiculously large list of schools.  (The only other limits are geographical, to stay somewhat close to extended family.)

 

Anyway, I appreciate hearing about your kids' friends' experience at U Chicago.  It may be that this latest pondering of mine is not going to help us pare down the list.

[snowbeltmom]

OK, so this is my DS's argument against visiting:  He is skeptical that you can predict what your personal experience will be based on speaking with a few people (or even several people) on campus.  At of U of Chicago, for example, he might run into your kids' friends and have one impression, or he might only run into other students who have zero down time and spend all of their time studying, with few hours of sleep.  He's also skeptical that those students who are stressed would actually own up to that (as in the duck syndrome mentioned earlier.) 

 

I should say also that this DS has lived most of his life in Asia (we're US expats, moved to Asia when DS was very young), and just about ANY university campus looks pretty amazing compared to where we live.  Plus, we are used to not having many options.  For most of his life there's been one kind of cheese available, one kind of bread, one option for basketball, very limited options in which to pursue music, etc.  A lot of what people talk about when they compare colleges - the size, the location (urban/rural etc), feels unimportant to him.  And this DC is very different from my others in that he really doesn't care one whit what anyone else thinks about him - feels zero social pressure.  So any argument for getting a feel for a place holds no weight for him.  He believes that in any university with a good academic program, he will find interesting people to hang out with.  He's really just interested in the strength of the academic program.  Period.  And his parents are concerned about that in addition to finances.  So that leaves us with a ridiculously large list of schools.  (The only other limits are geographical, to stay somewhat close to extended family.)

 

Anyway, I appreciate hearing about your kids' friends' experience at U Chicago.  It may be that this latest pondering of mine is not going to help us pare down the list.

I have only gone through the process twice, so I am by no means any expert, but my kids benefited by visiting the schools on their lists. 

 

In addition to visiting, I also think your son's personality will come into play as well when determining whether a school is a good fit.  Just as one example, I know of a parent that told a coach at a highly selective school that her son would freak out if he ever got any grade less than an A. The coach told the mom that this highly selective school would not be a good fit since the school is known for grade deflation and the odds of any student getting all A's is extremely remote.  He recommended that the recruit go elsewhere, and the family listened to the advice. 

 

Good luck navigating the process.

[rbk mama]

I need to think of better questions to ask, then.  This kid - doesn't care about grades.  So that doesn't work.   We are in the US this year, so now's the time to visit.  We just haven't thought of how to make those visits worth it for us (and like I said, DS is SO not on board with the idea.)

[snowbeltmom]

I need to think of better questions to ask, then.  This kid - doesn't care about grades.  So that doesn't work.   We are in the US this year, so now's the time to visit.  We just haven't thought of how to make those visits worth it for us (and like I said, DS is SO not on board with the idea.)

The fact that he doesn't care about grades would be a good indication to me that he would be a good fit at a school known for grade deflation.  Imo, kids who focus on learning the material to the best of their abilities instead of worrying about the letter grade assigned would be a good fit at the schools that have been discussed in this thread.

[daijobu]

OK, so this is my DS's argument against visiting:  He is skeptical that you can predict what your personal experience will be based on speaking with a few people (or even several people) on campus.  At of U of Chicago, for example, he might run into your kids' friends and have one impression, or he might only run into other students who have zero down time and spend all of their time studying, with few hours of sleep.  He's also skeptical that those students who are stressed would actually own up to that (as in the duck syndrome mentioned earlier.) 

 

 

 

You DS sounds wise, or at least experienced in the era of Yelp, RateMyProfessor, and Amazon reviews.  Yes, when you visit, you should take that experience with a grain of salt and compare it to other research you have done.  But does he think visiting a campus is inferior to parents posting to each other about the experiences of their kids or their kids' friends?  

 

That's like completely discounting the results of an election year poll...wait....

[rbk mama]

You DS sounds wise, or at least experienced in the era of Yelp, RateMyProfessor, and Amazon reviews.  Yes, when you visit, you should take that experience with a grain of salt and compare it to other research you have done.  But does he think visiting a campus is inferior to parents posting to each other about the experiences of their kids or their kids' friends?  

 

That's like completely discounting the results of an election year poll...wait....

 

:lol:  :lol: 

 

He isn't actually banking much on my posting others, though I do think he appreciates whatever info I pass on to him.  I have told him that paring the list is something he is going to have to do, not me.  But of course I can't keep myself out of it.  After spending hundreds of hours researching curriculum/resources for high school, this feels like a natural extension.

[snowbeltmom]

:lol:  :lol:

 

He isn't actually banking much on my posting others, though I do think he appreciates whatever info I pass on to him.  I have told him that paring the list is something he is going to have to do, not me.  But of course I can't keep myself out of it.  After spending hundreds of hours researching curriculum/resources for high school, this feels like a natural extension.

Fwiw, I don't think trying to eliminate schools based on down time is an ideal way to pare down the list since the term "down time" is so subjective.

 

My oldest only had 3 schools that he was interested in, so his list was easy.  My current senior was more like your son - he was considering a lot of schools initially and he needed to cull his list because there was no way he would be able to visit them all.  The highly selective schools are very different from one another in very objective ways:

 

1. Some have a heavy core curriculum, while others have no set graduation requirements. (U of Chicago and Columbia both have a very heavy core, MIT is in the "middle range", while Brown has a completely open curriculum.)

 

2. Some schools are in a very urban environment, while others are in the middle of nowhere where you may run into the occasional moose.

 

3. Some schools get a lot of snow, while other schools get a lot of sunshine.

 

4. Highly selective schools all calculate EFC differently.

 

5. Some colleges have frats, while others don't.

 

 

Fwiw, my current senior had two absolute requirements: No mandatory heavy core curriculum and no foreign language requirement.  The answers to these two questions reduced his list down to around 10 schools. 

 

He then visited the schools on his list.  After the first round of visits, the school that had been #1 based solely on his absolute requirements and info in the college guide books was completely eliminated because he didn't like the campus vibe, campus surroundings, or the athletic facilities.

 

He ended up with a list of 4 schools at the end of the visits that he would have been thrilled to attend.  These 4 schools spanned the spectrum from very urban to the middle of nowhere. 

 

If your son can come up with a list of objective questions and objective criteria that are important to him, I think he will be able to reduce his list to a very reasonable size as well. 

 

 

[saw]

My dd at Princeton has about 15 hours of class and 15 hours of extracurriculars a week, so homework and so on on top of that. She's one of those that keeps wanting to add more and more and more, but is limiting herself for now. She's busy but it's a good balance so far. If she were to cut down on extracurriculars, she would have more down time, but that's not what she wants. The work is manageable and not too difficult yet.

DD at Williams has around 12 hours of extracurriculars, not sure how many hours of class. Her workload is a lot heavier, probably because she's taking higher-level classes that are particularly challenging. She does manage downtime but isn't getting that much sleep. Williams seems to have a lot of support, though, with tutors and teaching assistants readily available for help. Seems that Wiliams has more of that than Princeton, but YMMV. 

I think if you choose not to do extracurriculars, or do some that don't require a great deal of commitment, that would leave plenty of downtime. 

[rbk mama]

Fwiw, I don't think trying to eliminate schools based on down time is an ideal way to pare down the list since the term "down time" is so subjective.

 

My oldest only had 3 schools that he was interested in, so his list was easy.  My current senior was more like your son - he was considering a lot of schools initially and he needed to cull his list because there was no way he would be able to visit them all.  The highly selective schools are very different from one another in very objective ways:

 

1. Some have a heavy core curriculum, while others have no set graduation requirements. (U of Chicago and Columbia both have a very heavy core, MIT is in the "middle range", while Brown has a completely open curriculum.)

 

2. Some schools are in a very urban environment, while others are in the middle of nowhere where you may run into the occasional moose.

 

3. Some schools get a lot of snow, while other schools get a lot of sunshine.

 

4. Highly selective schools all calculate EFC differently.

 

5. Some colleges have frats, while others don't.

 

 

Fwiw, my current senior had two absolute requirements: No mandatory heavy core curriculum and no foreign language requirement.  The answers to these two questions reduced his list down to around 10 schools. 

 

He then visited the schools on his list.  After the first round of visits, the school that had been #1 based solely on his absolute requirements and info in the college guide books was completely eliminated because he didn't like the campus vibe, campus surroundings, or the athletic facilities.

 

He ended up with a list of 4 schools at the end of the visits that he would have been thrilled to attend.  These 4 schools spanned the spectrum from very urban to the middle of nowhere. 

 

If your son can come up with a list of objective questions and objective criteria that are important to him, I think he will be able to reduce his list to a very reasonable size as well. 

 

Thanks for this!  #1 and #4 are the most important for us to look at.  As I said earlier, this one has no interest in discerning the "vibe" on a campus.  My next DS absolutely will want to experience that (much more sensitive in that regard), but not this one.  I think that he feels strongly about NOT visiting campuses, because the objective things (like #1 and 4, and other info gathered online) can be determined without visiting, and the rest are meaningless to him.  He really would be happy anywhere. 

[regentrude]

With respect to visits: if a student considers super selective schools with very small admissions rates, it may make more sense to apply first and then visit the ones where he actually gets accepted. Paying the application fee+score report is much cheaper than a college visit.

[Hoggirl]

I think the type of ECs can affect the consistency of downtime one can experience. My ds is heavily involved in two ECs. One is pretty steady week in and week out in terms of the amount of time he must devote to it (with the exception of one week in two of his three quarters - those two weeks require significant time). The other is much more cyclical in terms of time demands. So some weekends (such as this one) he has NO free time at all. I hope I am making sense. I'm just saying that there can be more to it than just the *number* of ECs a student participates in when one is considering down time.

 

Regentude has a great idea about doing visits after decisions come in. It's really hard for me to wrap my head around someone not caring about "vibe" at all. I guess if one were more of a loner?? Not trying to be critical - I just don't get it. "Fit" (and climate) just can't really be adjusted once a student lands somewhere. Other than by transferring, of course.

[regentrude]

It's really hard for me to wrap my head around someone not caring about "vibe" at all. I guess if one were more of a loner?? Not trying to be critical - I just don't get it. "Fit" (and climate) just can't really be adjusted once a student lands somewhere. Other than by transferring, of course.

 

I actually get it - because it is really a luxury to be able to include this as a criterion for school selection. 

 

I went to the university in my home town because it had the program I wanted and that is what we did. Picking a school according to "fit" was not a luxury any of us had, so it would not have even occurred to us that this should even be a thing. 

Some families' choices are very restricted because of finances.

Some have very limited choices because they are looking for a specific major/ specific level of instruction and only few schools offer this.

Some have geographical restrictions.

My DS has never set foot on his top choice school's campus. It is the level university that is suitable to his academic abilities, located in the city where he wants to be so he can continue to train with his club, and offers the major he wants with the slant he wants. If he gets accepted and the financial aid package works for us, this is where he will go - vibe or not.

 

Looking for "fit" and "vibes" is nice if you can get it - but it is a luxury.

[rbk mama]

It's really hard for me to wrap my head around someone not caring about "vibe" at all. I guess if one were more of a loner?? Not trying to be critical - I just don't get it. "Fit" (and climate) just can't really be adjusted once a student lands somewhere. Other than by transferring, of course.

:lol:  :lol: 

 

This DS has grown up as a foreigner in Asia, looking and thinking very differently from those around him.  He's used to not fitting in and making do.  And he is very optimistic when it comes to people - he enjoys meeting different types of people with different backgrounds, especially if they enjoy talking about deep things.  He is very comfortable in his own skin.  This past summer at a math/science camp, his favorite part was just getting to be around a large group of smart kids (for the first time really), and initiate philosophical conversations.  The trappings of the university setting were irrelevant. 

 

And I agree that "fit" really is a luxury.  Americans are used to having SO MANY options and getting things just exactly right.  

[Nan in Mass]

There are other non-vibe, non-extra-curricular activities aspects of universities to look at. Academic structure is one. Quarters? Semesters? Grading policies - some are structured to encourage students to challenge themselves (for example, by allowing dropping a class up until finals) and some are more standard. An applied slant or amore theoretical slant? Hands-on learning included or not? Recitation groups for large lectures or not? One academic advisor the whole time or a new one each year? How much help is there for finding internships and coops? How many opportunities are there for undergraduates to do research? Some universities have an emphasis on group work and some on individual work. Some have an emphasis on longterm, giant projects and some don't. There are also living situations to consider. I know Yale has houses, like Harry Potter. Lots of frats and sororities can make it so all the socializing happens off campus. Some have rules about living on or off campus. How expensive is it going to be to get home in a family emergency or for the holidays? Our friend from the south fell so often her first winter that she wound up sitting on the icy sidewalk sobbing. All of those things can be coped with, of course, but if you have to reduce the list somehow, you might as well eliminate the places where life will be especially hard.

 

My relatives at selective schools seem to have time for lots of ECs, sports, a heavy academic load, AND lots of interesting discussions hanging out and silly things like sledding down stairwells on matteresses.

 

Nan

[saw]

 I've heard that schools care about applicants displaying interest in them and that visiting is one way to do this; even if your DS isn't interested in visiting, he may want to indicate interest in his top choices, just in case. I don't know how much this matters or how true it is, but I do know that one school that rejected DD flat-out was one that she had displayed zero interest in. This was a school that she should have gotten into, considering the others that accepted her. I happened to talk to one of their Ad Coms at a college fair this fall who confirmed that the school would be inclined to reject applicants who applied last minute without showing any interest (which DD did, she was in panic mode at that point!). I personally wouldn't go too far out of my way to display some sort of interest, but if my DC were interested in a highly selective school but had no need to visit, I think I'd encourage DC to find some way to indicate their interest, whether by reaching out to a professor/department or similar. 

[daijobu]

 I've heard that schools care about applicants displaying interest in them and that visiting is one way to do this; even if your DS isn't interested in visiting, he may want to indicate interest in his top choices, just in case. I don't know how much this matters or how true it is, but I do know that one school that rejected DD flat-out was one that she had displayed zero interest in. This was a school that she should have gotten into, considering the others that accepted her. I happened to talk to one of their Ad Coms at a college fair this fall who confirmed that the school would be inclined to reject applicants who applied last minute without showing any interest (which DD did, she was in panic mode at that point!). I personally wouldn't go too far out of my way to display some sort of interest, but if my DC were interested in a highly selective school but had no need to visit, I think I'd encourage DC to find some way to indicate their interest, whether by reaching out to a professor/department or similar. 

 

I agree with this.  Here's an article about how colleges try to improve their reputations, including boosting their yield.  This is probably a bigger factor with less prestigious universities that actually are concerned about their reputations.  

 

"Rejecting good students universities think are just using them as a backup

 

While opening up early decision and early action programs is a way for colleges to force students to demonstrate that they're their top choice, schools use a variety of ways to divine the same information from regular decision students as well. This is perhaps the most common — and in some ways, common sense — method used by colleges to improve yield: simply to admit only those students who they perceive as likely to enroll.

 

"There are so many silent electronic footprints they're leaving nowadays," said Sundar Kumarasamy, vice president for enrollment management and marketing at the University of Dayton.

 

Kumarasamy said that his institution tracks many of these subtle signals of interest from applicants: They can tell whether individual applicants clicked to open email communications, logged into the system to check the status of an application, and not only whether they called the school, but how long that phone call lasted. If the school gets the sense that an applicant isn't interested, that's factored in. Kumarasamy calls it "recruiting for fit."

 

The interest — or lack thereof — can ultimately mean that the school rejects some candidates who on paper are more than qualified but failed to demonstrate interest."

[Hoggirl]

One can check the Common Data Set to see if "demonstrated interest" is considered and to what degree.

[FaithManor]

Not all highly selective schools have the same climate.

 

My DD attends a super selective school that has a reputation for insane work load. The school culture is to take a masochistic pride in being overworked and where you earn cred among fellow students by taking the hardest classes, working as much as humanly possible and still succeeding. As she phrased it: if you still manage to sleep 8 hours, you picked too easy classes. She has very little down time; her academic schedule is extremely tough since she is doing a double major and the school won't allow an extension past 4 years.

. 

Even among top tier schools, this school is extreme and not the norm.

 

OTOH, even among "normal " schools, down time is often at a premium for students if they are taking a large class load in a challenging major. I don't think an engineering major with 18 credit hours has much down time even at a public uni.

Very true.

 

My guy in a nice major at WMU that requires more than 90 credits just to complete the program without GEN ED or a minor has limited down time. He as some. He does try to make the effort to spend an hour each four days per week in the gym because he is a physically active kid and the constant time at his desk is hard to endure without some physical activity besides walking to and from classes or the dining hall. He is trying to find time to add a little meaningful volunteer work but so far not room for much.

 

Our other guy at U of MI attempting a double major is pretty much entirely occupied with his academics. He did manage to attend a classical concert the other night, and attend a volunteer event. Though only 2.5 hrs from home, we do not see him much. He also has extremely short breaks. Only two days for Thanksgiving for those that have Saturday courses as the professors are allowed to hold class on the Saturday after the holiday. Christmas break runs Dec. 22 to Jan.3. Not even two full weeks. There is only one day between the last final for the winter term and the first day of classes for spring term students.

 

He handles it very well, but it is definitely not a good situation for many students.