What do you think about this? (sorry, this got long)

[Only me]

My dd goes to a private christian high school and they are required to take a Bible class. This is their Bible teacher's first year teaching. I'm not thrilled with some of the things he is doing. Parent/teacher conferences are next week and I want to be prepared for talking to him.

 

First of all I feel that his lectures are very unorganized. He tends to cover something, go onto something else and then remember something that he forgot to add to the material they covered days earlier. It tends to make notes a little confusing. They've only had one test so far this year. The day before the class he had review and assured the class that the test was very easy. The day of the class several of the students were shocked about the test. By the end of the day the whole school knew about how difficult the test was. Most of the material was not covered in the review sessions. Many of the questions were very minor details that you wouldn't normally be expected to remember. Needless to say the students didn't do very well on the test. My dd was sure that she failed so we were shocked when the teacher told her she received a 99%.

 

They had curriculum night a few weeks ago. Basically you go to each class and the teacher talks for 10 minutes about what they are covering in class. Many of the parents were talking before class about how poorly their students were doing and that they didn't understand the material. At time time I didn't chime in because I knew that my dd received a 99% on the test.

 

Tuesday my dd got her test back. She had over 20 problems wrong! It turns out that the teacher graded on a curve and that is why she received a 99. So if my dd received one of the highest grades and missed that many problems I can't imagine how many the majority of the class got wrong. So that is my first problem with the teacher.

 

During curriculum night the teacher told the parents that he was going to have the students do some research on a particular biblical passage and that each student would have to "teach" the class that topic. I had already heard about the assignment. Apparently during class many of the students asked if they could make it a group project or at least a partner project so that they wouldn't have to be alone in front of the class. He denied their request. A few of the parents requested this too but he felt it would be good for the students to do this and also that it would be a change of pace from his lectures.

 

I just found out that each student is responsible for talking for at least 20 minutes. Each day one or two students will give their presentations and that will be the whole class. These presentations will be lasting for the rest of the semester. So he will not be lecturing for the rest of the semester and the students have to learn the material from the other students. This is the material that will be on their tests.

 

I have a few problems with that. First of all, my daughter is terrified about speaking in front of class, especially for that long. I believe that God gave us each specific gifts. Some people are made for being leaders and others aren't. Some people may enjoy speaking for that long in front of a group, for others it is torture.

 

I also have a problem with this teacher being paid to teach when he is having the students take over for the rest of the semester. I feel that he is trained to teach and went to college to learn this material. I'm paying for my dd to be taught by a professional not by other students.

 

I realize that sometimes it is good for students to teach each other but not in this case and not for 10 weeks.

 

Would this upset you? Any suggestions about how I could approach the teacher about this without coming off as telling him how to handle his job?

[Melinda in VT]

My dd goes to a private christian high school and they are required to take a Bible class. This is their Bible teacher's first year teaching. I'm not thrilled with some of the things he is doing. Parent/teacher conferences are next week and I want to be prepared for talking to him.

 

First of all I feel that his lectures are very unorganized. He tends to cover something, go onto something else and then remember something that he forgot to add to the material they covered days earlier. It tends to make notes a little confusing. They've only had one test so far this year. The day before the class he had review and assured the class that the test was very easy. The day of the class several of the students were shocked about the test. By the end of the day the whole school knew about how difficult the test was. Most of the material was not covered in the review sessions. Many of the questions were very minor details that you wouldn't normally be expected to remember. Needless to say the students didn't do very well on the test. My dd was sure that she failed so we were shocked when the teacher told her she received a 99%.

 

They had curriculum night a few weeks ago. Basically you go to each class and the teacher talks for 10 minutes about what they are covering in class. Many of the parents were talking before class about how poorly their students were doing and that they didn't understand the material. At time time I didn't chime in because I knew that my dd received a 99% on the test.

 

Tuesday my dd got her test back. She had over 20 problems wrong! It turns out that the teacher graded on a curve and that is why she received a 99. So if my dd received one of the highest grades and missed that many problems I can't imagine how many the majority of the class got wrong. So that is my first problem with the teacher.

 

During curriculum night the teacher told the parents that he was going to have the students do some research on a particular biblical passage and that each student would have to "teach" the class that topic. I had already heard about the assignment. Apparently during class many of the students asked if they could make it a group project or at least a partner project so that they wouldn't have to be alone in front of the class. He denied their request. A few of the parents requested this too but he felt it would be good for the students to do this and also that it would be a change of pace from his lectures.

 

I just found out that each student is responsible for talking for at least 20 minutes. Each day one or two students will give their presentations and that will be the whole class. These presentations will be lasting for the rest of the semester. So he will not be lecturing for the rest of the semester and the students have to learn the material from the other students. This is the material that will be on their tests.

 

I have a few problems with that. First of all, my daughter is terrified about speaking in front of class, especially for that long. I believe that God gave us each specific gifts. Some people are made for being leaders and others aren't. Some people may enjoy speaking for that long in front of a group, for others it is torture.

 

I also have a problem with this teacher being paid to teach when he is having the students take over for the rest of the semester. I feel that he is trained to teach and went to college to learn this material. I'm paying for my dd to be taught by a professional not by other students.

 

I realize that sometimes it is good for students to teach each other but not in this case and not for 10 weeks.

 

Would this upset you? Any suggestions about how I could approach the teacher about this without coming off as telling him how to handle his job?

 

I'm confused. How many kids are in the class? Do they have Bible every day? I'm trying to figure out 1 or 2 kids presenting per class period is going to take up 10 weeks.

[Only me]

I don't know what I was thinking. The teacher said it would take the rest of the semester but that's impossible unless he is only doing it a few times a week.

 

He is planning on 2 students do their presentation each day. The class period lasts 45 minutes except for a few days when they don't have a whole class period then it would only be 1 student. So you're correct. That would mean it should only take up about 3 weeks or so.

 

I still would rather him do the teaching, especially since they have only had one test so far. This is only a semester class so I'd like to see him do more of the teaching.

[Melinda in VT]

I can understand that you would prefer he teach more.

 

And it sounds like he is a young teacher who is still learning what works and what doesn't. But there is nothing I see in your posts that would upset me as parent. (And my kids are in public school.) I would not bring this up in a conference.

[Remudamom]

I say suck it up and do it, especially if your dd is uncomfortable talking in front of the class. She needs to get over it.

[amy g.]

I agree about her speaking in front of a class. It's really scary, but there is no way to become good at it if you are not forced to try it.

[Heather in Neverland]

Well, I taught high school for 12 years and I am now an administrator and I have a problem with some of this. I DO believe in individual presentations but I also think 20 minutes is way too long. I think 5-10 minutes max. is appropriate. This would also allow the teacher to get done sooner.

 

The teacher sounds like he needs some guidance on lesson-planning and instructional strategies. He may be very good at his subject matter but the art of teaching it to someone else is an entirely different skill and teacher preparation programs at colleges are inadequate at best. Some teachers have this gift naturally and others have to work at it.

 

If his principal was worth his/her salt they would be in that classroom observing this for themselves and getting this teacher the help he needs. In the meantime, I would talk to the teacher (and principal if necessary) about the length of the speech.

 

Also, any test where the class average is below an 80% (without being curved) means the students did not master the material and he needs to reteach it in a different way. That's just common sense.

 

You are the consumer here and you deserve to get your money's worth. Remember that.

[Julpost]

I think it might be a good experience for her. I remember having to give a presentation in school, I was almost sick over it, I was so nervous. About 2 minutes into the speech though, I was having a ball. I was relieved to realize that I knew the material and I actually was enjoying it. I never would have known that if I hadn't been forced to do it.

 

I wouldn't be upset. I hope it turns out to be a good experience.

[Julie in Austin]

Former ps teacher here:

 

(1) Class presentations are very appropriate and important. But 20min is way too long.

 

(2) If 20+ problems wrong was the best test result, he needs to reteach the material.

 

(3) Being a new teacher is very, very hard. I would be gentle and kind. I would also have a talk with the principal to be sure this teacher gets the supervision that he needs.

[Only me]

I don't think I made myself clear. I'll admit that 'm probably the most emotionally attached to the issue of the 20 minute presentation. I got through high school and college without ever giving a 20 minute speech so I don't think it is necessary in a Bible class. 5 or 10 minutes sure but to be responsible for 1/2 a class period seems a bit much. My dh wasn't thrilled about doing this for his MBA and he often has to make presentations for his work.

 

That is just one of the issues. I think what bothers me the most is that my dd received an A on something that she probably should have gotten at most a C or D on. If she missed 20 problems and received a 99 because of the curve that means that many students got a lot more wrong. I doubt there were more than 50 questions on the test (if that) so most students probably missed more than half the questions. That just doesn't seem right.

 

If the students aren't learning with the teacher presenting the material then how does he expect the students to learn when students are teaching the material? I'm not paying tuition so that students can do the teaching.

 

Of course I was more upset when I thought it was going to last 10 weeks but I still think it is too much.

[Kathleen in VA]

Well, I taught high school for 12 years and I am now an administrator and I have a problem with some of this. I DO believe in individual presentations but I also think 20 minutes is way too long. I think 5-10 minutes max. is appropriate. This would also allow the teacher to get done sooner.

 

The teacher sounds like he needs some guidance on lesson-planning and instructional strategies. He may be very good at his subject matter but the art of teaching it to someone else is an entirely different skill and teacher preparation programs at colleges are inadequate at best. Some teachers have this gift naturally and others have to work at it.

 

If his principal was worth his/her salt they would be in that classroom observing this for themselves and getting this teacher the help he needs. In the meantime, I would talk to the teacher (and principal if necessary) about the length of the speech.

 

Also, any test where the class average is below an 80% (without being curved) means the students did not master the material and he needs to reteach it in a different way. That's just common sense.

 

You are the consumer here and you deserve to get your money's worth. Remember that.

 

:iagree: First of all, this teacher sounds like he is very inexperienced and doesn't really know what he is doing. Second, 20 minutes is waaaaay too long for a high school presentation. 5 minutes ought to do it.

 

Third, it honestly does sound like he is trying to get the students to do his job for him.

 

I would have to observe this teacher in action to really *know* what's going on, but with the info you have provided, I would definitely have a problem with this.

 

Is he winging it? Does he use a curriculum or at least a Bible study book of some kind? If I were you, I'd ask him about these concerns. If you aren't satisfied with his answers, go to the principal. You are paying for your daughter to be educated by a competent teacher, not by a bunch of other students. I don't have a problem with the assignment of a presentation, but it sounds like he is trying to fill time and doesn't really know what he's doing.

[Melinda in VT]

No, I think you were clear before. What you posted in your most recent post was what I understood from your original post.

 

I still wouldn't bring it up.

 

This is his first year teaching, so he's been teaching for two months? And the test was his first test?

 

Yes, it sounds like he's going to have to adjust his teaching or his test writing or both. I'm not clear if the issue is that the kids didn't understand the material or that the test was poorly written or too difficult for high school.

 

And 20 minute presentations might be unrealistic for some high school students.

 

But I would give him more time to adjust. Since this is only a semester-long class, it's likely that your daughter won't have the best experience. But I think new teachers deserve a semester or two of grace before people start complaining.

 

Fortunately, the quality of her Bible class this semester is unlikely to have long-term repercussions. She'll be studying the Bible her whole life, right? And getting instruction at church. Plenty of time to fill in the gaps.

[AuntieM]

I would agree with others that a shorter presentation would be an appropriate assignment for a high school student, in a Bible history class.

 

If it's a Bible doctrine class, well, I'd feel differently about that. I would want a well-qualified instructor who is very knowledgeable about the subject matter to be instructing my child (above what I may teach myself). I wouldn't want to turn any portion of that instruction over to a student presentation.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[PeterPan]

Just so you know, he may be following the same testing procedure he experienced in his own Bible classes in undergrad or seminary. In many of the upper level Bible courses I took in college, the test was unbelievably hard and graded on a curve. I was used to it, so I was surprised when a friend in grad school, who had transferred in from another college, got vehement about it, said it was the worst thing ever, blah blah. Well I think it actually had a point: communicating the idea that you don't know everything.

 

I'm not saying it's good teaching technique, especially for a high schooler, but he could have a reason behind the madness. Give the guy a chance to make his mistakes. Make your suggestions or observations quietly and calmly. And yes, your dd should suck up and do the presentation, my lands. Most people need to do public speaking in high school or college, so it's a good time to start. Bring in something fun (hands-on illustration of the point) or a pre-quiz or create a handout/outline they fill in, something that kills time. I remember this one lesson a prof in college did where he brought in all the ingredients for a cake and talked about them one by one. It was a lesson on things working together, and it killed plenty of time.

Edited October 16, 2008 by OhElizabeth

[joannqn]

I'd have no problems with the speech requirement. I was in JROTC in high school and was required to give speeches this long and longer at times for that class. One assignment that I remember well was having to teach a full length class on the Uniform Code of Military Justice. I had to learn the material myself, create my own overhead transparencies, and get excused from all my other classes so I could teach it to all six periods. I also had to create, administer, and grade a test for the material I taught. The test was part of each student's grade. I was graded on how well the students learned the material from my class. I had occasional teaching responsibilities in a few other classes as well. I know it is possible for students to teach well and for other students to learn from a student teacher.

 

I wouldn't worry about students teaching the material. It sounds like he's such a poor teacher, that they might actually do better with the students doing the teaching. It is possible for students to teach well. For the subjects not covered well, students can supplement with their own reading and research.

 

I do have a problem with the test scores. If part of the class did poorly and part of the class did well, I would place the responsibility on the shoulders of the students. If the whole class did poorly, the responsibility is entirely on the teacher. Something needs to change...either his teaching or his test or both.

[Only me]

Good suggestions ohElizabeth about having something hands on. I'll tell my dd about that.

 

Again, I don't mind her having to make a presentation but in my opinion 20 minutes is way too long.

 

This class (Romans) only lasts a semester but she will have him 2nd semester for Bible class also.

 

Please remember that I'm paying a lot of money for my dd to go here. I know that is my choice but I'm not thrilled about students teaching my dd even if it is only for 3 weeks. Of course I want my dd to learn but the grade she receives in this class counts just as much as her other classes so I want her to do well.

 

Next Friday are parent/teacher conferences and most parents go so it is the perfect time to bring up any concerns rather than wait and speak to him at another time. I think he would take it as being more critical if it was brought up at a different time.

 

I never planned on being critical. I'm just looking for the right words to say so I don't come across that way. I think he should know if I have concerns.

[gardening momma]

First of all I feel that his lectures are very unorganized. He tends to cover something, go onto something else and then remember something that he forgot to add to the material they covered days earlier. It tends to make notes a little confusing. They've only had one test so far this year. The day before the class he had review and assured the class that the test was very easy. The day of the class several of the students were shocked about the test. By the end of the day the whole school knew about how difficult the test was. Most of the material was not covered in the review sessions. Many of the questions were very minor details that you wouldn't normally be expected to remember. Needless to say the students didn't do very well on the test. My dd was sure that she failed so we were shocked when the teacher told her she received a 99%.

I'd bring up this issue to the school administration as well as to the teacher.

 

Tuesday my dd got her test back. She had over 20 problems wrong! It turns out that the teacher graded on a curve and that is why she received a 99. So if my dd received one of the highest grades and missed that many problems I can't imagine how many the majority of the class got wrong. So that is my first problem with the teacher.

I'd say to the teacher that this is good evidence that grading on a curve is highly inaccurate. Your daughter didn't deserve a 99% if she missed 20 questions. It would be better to grade based on the % of questions answered correctly so that everyone involved--the student, parents, teacher and school--know the student's comprehension and progress.

 

During curriculum night the teacher told the parents that he was going to have the students do some research on a particular biblical passage and that each student would have to "teach" the class that topic...the students have to learn the material from the other students. This is the material that will be on their tests.

This is not a speech class, but speech is not the only class where students have to make presentations. I think this would be acceptable if: 1) it is not graded on the same basis as a presentation in speech class would be, but rather according to the content presented. 2) the students hearing the presentation are not required to "learn" the material and be tested on it--that is the teacher's job. I think this is especially important in a Bible class, where a student's comprehension and interpretation of the subject matter is not as complete as the teacher's. The teacher, although new, does have a few additional years age-wise, as well as some formal training in the subject. A student should not be the teacher here. Again, this is something I'd notify the school administration of. Tell them what you said--"I'm paying for my dd to be taught by a professional not by other students."

 

Would this upset you?

Yes!

Edited October 16, 2008 by gardening momma

[The Governess]

I wouldn't hesitate discussing these concerns with him. There was obviously some sort of miscommunication as to the content of the test. Hopefully seeing the student's scores and discussing it with parents who helped their children prepare for the test will help him figure out a more effective way to review and set the student's expectations for future exams. On the other hand, now that the students have seen what he expects from them on exams (more detailed questions, etc.) they will probably do better on the next one, even if he doesn't change anything.

 

I agree that 20 minutes is rather long for a student to be standing up in front of the class. I think 10 minutes is probably plenty, although like previous posters have said, it will give the students some much-needed experience. When I was in college I had to make several speeches/presentations to the class that were 15 or so minutes in length and it does get easier each time you do it.

 

So, I guess what I'm saying is that while neither of these issues seems to be something that the class isn't capable of dealing with, I also think it isn't a big deal to bring them up with the teacher if you are concerned. And maybe you'll get some clarification/insight from him in the process.

[Parrothead]

How many questions were on the test? Was the test hard because it was a very long test with 100 or more questions? Or was it a 40 question test that your dd missed half of the answers? If the former I wouldn't worry too much. If it was a short test I'd take the whole thing to an administrator.

 

The student teaching sounds okay in theory, but I don't think it will work out the way the teacher intends. 20 minutes to teach an aspect of Bible history is too short. I don't think the students will get anything out of it other than learning how to prepare and present material. The students will each know their little piece that they prepared for, but probably will get very little out of listening to other students teach. If there is no testing or other responsibility for the listening students it will be so easy for them to tune out for the next 3 weeks of class. The first to present his spiel will be able to get by doing nothing for quite some time.

 

Going to the conference I'd bring up a few questions asking what he expects the students to take away from this exercise. Ask how he is ensuring that the students are taking in the information presented.

[Stacy in NJ]

I'm just going to point out that a 20 minute teaching presentations is much different than a 20 minute speech.

 

As the students teach their individual passage it could probably include guided discussion with the other students, hand-outs or other interactive activites.

 

As a Senior in AP Social Studies in HS, we we're required to teach an entire class period on an approved topic. I used an overhead projector, hand-outs and a short quiz as part of by "class".

[Rosie_0801]

Is he trained as a Bible studies teacher? From what I've heard, it's not unusual for the newest teacher to get 'lumped' with the RE class. It could well be that he took a job and this was put on as one of his extra responsibilities without having been given lesson plans or anything.

Rosie