Computer Science and AI Safety - Good Merit Aid Schools

[lisabees]

DS is settling on a major - A summer Math Camp has changed his direction.  He is excited about theoretical computer science and AI (Artificial Intelligence) Safety and Math.  His scores etc are good enough for top-tier schools, but we need some "safety schools" with nice scholarships.  Most important to him, though, is being surrounded by smart, intellectual kids.  

 

Ideas?

[Julie of KY]

Listening in. My son is in the same boat.

 

[Luckymama]

What kind of scholarships? Or rather, how low do you need the bottom-line COA to be?

 

$20K off a $65K total is a lot different than $20K off a $40K total!

Edited October 11, 2016 by Luckymama

[lisabees]

Luckymama, yes indeed! That is a difference. Ideally, $30,000 a year total.

 

I am talking about merit aid scholarships. DS has almost perfect scores on all tests. Hoping that will help somewhat!

[daijobu]

Take a look at Carnegie Mellon.  I'm not really sure how much of a safety it is though.  

[raptor_dad]

Case Western is widely reputed to have lots of good merit aid for high stat kids and could be a safety and provide the intellectual environment you're looking for.

 

If he'll be national merit, various places like Minnesota and ASU have good math/CS and highly recruit NMFs with lots of merit aid.

 

Various lottery schools have small numbers of big scholarships... for CS/math my list would include Duke, Rice, WUSTL, and Chicago... but those are all lottery schools and the big scholarships are a further lottery on top of that.

 

ETA: Waterloo international tuition/fees/room/board for CS would run around $41k cad or just over $31k at current exchange rates. I think of their strength being applied but that might be something to investigate.

Edited October 12, 2016 by raptor_dad

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Take a look at Carnegie Mellon.  I'm not really sure how much of a safety it is though.  

 

The middle 50% SAT math score is 780-800 for the school of computer science.  In other words, only 25% of admitted students have lower than a 780.  (I think it was a 750 last year when ds applied.)

[mjbucks1]

Carnegie Melon is not a safety, especially for CS. It has one of the top rated CS programs in the country and their acceptance rate for CS is 6%. Case Western does have 'good aid', with the highest I have seen around $29,000. The school costs $65,000/year with room and board, which leaves around $36,000/ year. Also Case is somewhat known for rejecting the very high stat applicants. It appears the school is trying to raise the percentage of kids that matriculate to increase rankings. They do not want to be seen as a safety. Our ds was a high stat kid (and NMF) and was deferred EA, but was admitted in regular decision with a $25,000/year scholarship. Ds chose UA where he has a near full ride (UA gives great scholarships to NMF and high stat kids). Case is a great school, but I would not consider it a safety. I think the acceptance rate was around 20% last year. I was worried about ds going to a big state university because I knew he would want to be around studious kids. But he is in the honors program and lives in the honors dorms. All of his friends are very bright students and take their studies seriously. The best money will be where your student is well above the school average.

[GoodGrief]

Is he a National Merit semifinalist?

 

I really liked what we saw at both University of Oklahoma and University of Kentucky for engineering, but I don't know what their computer programs were like. They both have attractive honors programs. If he likes the outdoors, my daughter also liked Montana State, but again, I'm not sure about the computer program.

[lisabees]

Thanks all.  Yes, Carnegie Mellon is on the list - not as a safety, though.

 

Case is definitely a consideration, too.  

 

raptor_dad, I hadn't considered Duke or WUSTL or Chicago.  I'll have him look into their AI programs.  Waterloo, eh?  DS has mentioned a few Canadian schools.  His uncle is a professor at McGill; not sure if they have anything to offer.

 

DS has also mentioned U of Illinois and U of Michigan.  

 

Thanks for all of the suggestions.  I will pass the suggestions on to him.

[Kathy in Richmond]

For CS safeties with merit aid, I'd also take a look at U Texas Dallas & U Maryland.

 

One of my former brilliant tutoring students is currently at UTD in CS on a scholarship & is having a terrific experience there.

 

In my son's cohort, I recall that some of the USACO (computing olympiad, theory & math heavy) kids ended up at UMBC.

 

I don't know what they offer in AI, though.

 

[lisabees]

For CS safeties with merit aid, I'd also take a look at U Texas Dallas & U Maryland.

 

One of my former brilliant tutoring students is currently at UTD in CS on a scholarship & is having a terrific experience there.

 

In my son's cohort, I recall that some of the USACO (computing olympiad, theory & math heavy) kids ended up at UMBC.

 

I don't know what they offer in AI, though.

 

Thanks Kathy.  DS has ruled out certain states - Texas being one of them.  Kids are funny, eh?

 

Maryland is on the list.  It's a huge school, though.  Ideally, he would prefer smaller.

[JanetC]

Thanks all.  Yes, Carnegie Mellon is on the list - not as a safety, though.

Case is definitely a consideration, too. 

raptor_dad, I hadn't considered Duke or WUSTL or Chicago. 

DS has also mentioned U of Illinois and U of Michigan. 

 

These are all great computer science schools - they are not really safeties for kids who need merit aid. These schools either do not give merit aid, or only give it to their "tippy top" kids. Males who wish to pursue CS are a dime a dozen in the applicant pool - you need to be the tippy-top of the tippy-top to be a merit aid candidate at a school with a strong CS program.

 

They would be great match schools, if you didn't need the money.

 

You need to look lower in the rankings - UT Dallas is an excellent example of the type of school you need for a safety.

[lisabees]

Janet, thanks for the reminder.  I just started the process this week; obviously, I have not done my homework with this child, as compared to the others.  I am just not ready to do this again!

 

Good point about males going into CS.  My older boys had a slight advantage when applying to liberal arts colleges as males.  

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by lisabees

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Last year I was going through this with DS1.  (With the added twist that he wanted a school with a Navy ROTC college program.)

 

One thing we found was that nearly every school had computer science, much as nearly every school has an English department.  We really had to look at the required courses and majors tracks to see if their offerings matched up with DS's goals.  

 

A couple things we looked at included:

What was the first required math course?  Calculus was a good sign.  Pre-calculus or lower indicated that incoming students might be less well prepared and that courses might be less demanding.

 

Was the computer science major in the College of Engineering or the College of Science?  How did the CS program work with other departments?  For example, was robotics something for Mech E majors or something that interdisciplinary groups collaborated on?  Similarly, we looked at where Computer Engineering was and if there was cross-pollination between CS and CE.  Do students start out with CS courses freshman year or do they spend time on fundamentals before moving on to CS (DS ended up at a college that has all engineers start as General Engineering students, then change their majors after completing 24 credits.  I liked this because it gives him the opportunity to see the different flavors of majors available and identify which one he really wants.  Another school has students apply directly into their major.  The advantage of this approach is that the college plans for the numbers it has and doesn't accept more than they can teach.  But it would be harder to switch from CS to something else, especially if the other major were full.)

 

Does the school have cooping, internships, team projects or other hands on experiences?  Is this something most/all students do or only a select few?  How does cooping affect graduation timing?

 

This thread was really helpful for my son to use as a jumping off point for college research.  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/557174-naval-rotc-programs-with-computer-science-majors/

[Hoggirl]

Thanks Kathy. DS has ruled out certain states - Texas being one of them. Kids are funny, eh?

 

Maryland is on the list. It's a huge school, though. Ideally, he would prefer smaller.

That's unfortunate. We know a young man at UTD who is there on a McDermott scholarship. They are extremely competitive. It's a full ride + perks. However, there is plenty of merit money to be had there. Our friend turned down Stanford for it because of costs. He interned at Tesla last summer and at TI the summer before that.

 

I do get it. Ds wouldn't look at anything in Oklahoma. :/

[GoodGrief]

Funny, my '16 grad daughter was very negative about TX and OK too (though practical enough that the very good scholarship possibilities available there were not completely ruled out until the end ;-) ) She has a good friend at UTD on the McDermott scholarship too; it really is a great deal. The colleges I named above were listed only as possible safeties, which I thought was the point of your post. I may have misunderstood; obviously there are lots of excellent schools with CS. The other posters make a good point though; tougher for a white male to get into great CS programs with merit aid, so schools that may otherwise be safeties with his scores, may be quite competitive if intended major is taken into consideration.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Gr8lander

[raptor_dad]

DS has also mentioned U of Illinois and U of Michigan.  

 

 

Actually UIUC is a great example of the difficulty you face for top schools. Like the UCs, Washington, Wisconsin, and other top CS state schools, Illinois offers almost no out of state merit aid. However the engineering school does have a few 10-15k scholarships and more lower awards. But to quote[1]:

 

 

 

Funds vary from year to year but 100 freshmen will be awarded a College of Engineering Scholarship in a typical year... <snip>... Engineering at Illinois attracts the very best; we typically have well over 500 applicants with 35 & 36 ACT composite. Average ACT is above 32 for our college.

 

So even with top scores it's a lottery. Which isn't surprising since UIUC is ranked #5 in CS.

 

[1] http://engineering.illinois.edu/admissions/cost-and-financial-aid/scholarship-faqs.html

[MarkT]

Case Western is widely reputed to have lots of good merit aid for high stat kids and could be a safety and provide the intellectual environment you're looking for.

 

If he'll be national merit, various places like Minnesota and ASU have good math/CS and highly recruit NMFs with lots of merit aid.

 

 

Large schools such as ASU have honors colleges so worth a look. Some of these large public U have special scholarship money for recruiting honors students from out of state.  My nephew got a merit scholarship for UMass Honors where he is going now (from upstate NY).

[lisabees]

Thanks all.

 

DS and I have been having discussions about changing his incoming major and adding smaller, liberal arts colleges with a good math/physics dept.  Math and Physics have long been his undergrad goals, until he recently became enthralled with theoretical computer science and AI Safety.  

 

His desires:

 

1. Intellectual student body, filled with those who are brighter than he is.

2. Excellent math and physics depts.  He is more interested in AI Safety for grad school.

3. Small to medium sized school that inspires him to be a better person.  Not interested in big preppy/athletic/greek school.

4. Flexibility in academic path.  Exposure to a variety of courses.  Afraid that larger, state schools will lock him into a major without easy transfer.  

5. Great merit aid.

 

 

 

 

[Kathy in Richmond]

Has he considered U Rochester?

 

It's intellectual more than preppy/sporty, medium sized, & has excellent math & physics departments.

 

Check out the Rochester Curriculum. Students take ownership in designing their curriculum instead of taking the usual gen-eds.

 

There's merit aid available to top students. I'm a happy alumna who attended on a large merit scholarship back in the day. I believe it helps to show true interest in the school, though, if you want to be considered.

 

[lisabees]

Yup!  Rochester is on his list.  We will be visiting Rochester soon. :)

 

ETA:  Thanks for that link.  DS will like the sound of that.

Edited October 14, 2016 by lisabees

[JoJosMom]

DS is settling on a major - A summer Math Camp has changed his direction.  He is excited about theoretical computer science and AI (Artificial Intelligence) Safety and Math.  His scores etc are good enough for top-tier schools, but we need some "safety schools" with nice scholarships.  Most important to him, though, is being surrounded by smart, intellectual kids.  

 

Ideas?

 

Slightly off topic, OP, but would you mind sharing what summer camp sparked his interest in this?  This sounds like something that would intrigue my DD.

[Matryoshka]

Also if you're in Rochester, you might want to look at RIT.  Dd applied and was accepted at both, but the net price for us at RIT was $20K less.  

[lisabees]

So...if anyone is familiar with getting a Phd in Math or Physics, should we stay away from LACs? Larger schools - with highly rigorous math courses at the undergraduate level - seem to be recommended on College Confidential.  A couple of the honors math classes that ds has taken at Penn were easy A's and not challenging for him. I would hate for him to run out of classes during undergrad.  I think we need to be extremely careful when choosing his safeties.

 

JoJosMom - I read your post aloud to ds and his girlfriend and we all laughed out loud at the same time!  The camp is named SPARC! A few of his friends who attend MIT recommended it highly. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

So...if anyone is familiar with getting a Phd in Math or Physics, should we stay away from LACs? Larger schools - with highly rigorous math courses at the undergraduate level - seem to be recommended on College Confidential.  A couple of the honors math classes that ds has taken at Penn were easy A's and not challenging for him. I would hate for him to run out of classes during undergrad.  I think we need to be extremely careful when choosing his safeties.

 

JoJosMom - I read your post aloud to ds and his girlfriend and we all laughed out loud at the same time!  The camp is named SPARC! A few of his friends who attend MIT recommended it highly. 

 

This is a sample of 1, but a relative of ours did his undergrad at what most would consider a LAC, then his MS/PhD at Washington University (St. Louis).  He is in astrophysics and has been continuously employed in research since his graduation.

 

ETA:  However, your caution about looking at course availability and other factors is a good instinct.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Sebastian (a lady)

[lisabees]

This is a sample of 1, but a relative of ours did his undergrad at what most would consider a LAC, then his MS/PhD at Washington University (St. Louis).  He is in astrophysics and has been continuously employed in research since his graduation.

 

ETA:  However, your caution about looking at course availability and other factors is a good instinct.

 

Thanks, Sebastian.  Glad your son is doing well!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Thanks, Sebastian. Glad your son is doing well!

Not one of our kids. This is a relative my age.

[Emerald Stoker]

Lisa, I know nothing about this (I'm not American, and I'm a fine arts person...)--but I thought your question above was an interesting one and went looking around the web. I found this interesting article that I thought you might enjoy also: http://www.forbes.com/sites/chadorzel/2015/04/10/why-small-colleges-are-great-for-science-students/#77430fee7bb9

Edited October 18, 2016 by Emerald Stoker

[*LC]

So...if anyone is familiar with getting a Phd in Math or Physics, should we stay away from LACs? Larger schools - with highly rigorous math courses at the undergraduate level - seem to be recommended on College Confidential.  A couple of the honors math classes that ds has taken at Penn were easy A's and not challenging for him. I would hate for him to run out of classes during undergrad.  I think we need to be extremely careful when choosing his safeties.

 

'

It is  easy to find out where many math grad students come from. Simply search the "name of the school" and "math grad students". Then copy and paste a chosen student's name into a search with the word "math."

 

I was able to easily find out where 9 out of the 10 students I searched did their undergraduate work. The students I searched came from a wide variety of backgrounds. One from a junior college then Berkeley undergrad; one from a regionally ranked state college; a couple from big state schools that are ranked outside the top 100; a few from top 100 LAC schools, one from MIT, a couple from other top 100 national universities.The only criteria for the names I picked was that they seemed a bit uncommon. So, a more thorough search may show that most math grad students at your son's top choices do come from a certain type of school, however, the students I searched came from all types of schools.

 

https://math.berkeley.edu/people/grad

http://math.mit.edu/directory/graduate.php

 http://abel.harvard.edu/people/graduate.html

https://www.math.princeton.edu/directory/grad-students

 

Physics students may be harder to track as Harvard wouldn't list those unless you had a Harvard ID, but I didn't try to search a different way. I searched Princeton the standard way and there was no problem getting the list. 

 

https://www.princeton.edu/physics/people/index.xml?display=faculty

 

Good luck.