College

[lewelma]

Regentrude identified that I'm actually asking about a more complicated issue than ECs.  See posts 10, 12 and 18. I'm editing the title accordingly

 

I need to ask some pretty basic questions.  I'm in NZ so don't quite understand the university entrance system in the US.  My ds is interested in attending an elite university, and he has the academics to be competitive.  But the other thread on overworking has got me thinking about his extracurriculars and how they might be viewed by US university admissions people.  I know he should follow his passions, but then he has too many passions so he is going to have to choose next year, and part of the choice might be determined by how the universities might view these extracurricular.

 

He has 3 main areas of extracurricular interest: Music, Sports, and Mathematics

 

This is what he currently does in 10th grade (over in December for us southern hemisphere people):

 

1) Music: 2 hour trio, 2 hours string group (all on saturday afternoon), 1 hour lesson for violin, 6 concerts a year at rest homes, 1 trio competition (only a couple hours of extra prep).

 

2) Badminton: 6.5 hours a week including travel time (he walks there, 2 hours wed, 4 hours sunday), + 3 competitions a year

Martial Arts: 4 hours a week including travel time. He has done Win Tsung since he was 9 with his father

 

3) Math: attended IMO last year and expects to make the team for the next 2 years. He studies 10 hours a week.

 

For next year, he is doing all the above plus

 

1)his violin teacher has suggested and ds is interested in joining the City youth orchestra.  The teacher believes ds could make the National Youth Orchestra in 12th grade. These orchestras are competitive and for people 15 to 25, ds is 16.

 

2) I'm suggesting that he needs to do some volunteer work and would like him to join the mathematics student association and run lectures in the city on competition math. Most kids in NZ start working at 16, giving them something to put on a resume, so this would fit the bill quite nicely I think.  And he could just grab an AoPS  number theory or combinatorics book and teach without heaps of prep. He is a good teacher and good at public speaking.

 

********

 

This seems to be getting excessive.  However, he will have fulfilled his NZ highschool requirements this December, so we could turn some of these extracurriculars into courses, I guess.  

 

I'm just not clear on how to prioritize.  Clearly the IMO stays, but what about the rest?

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited October 6, 2016 by lewelma

[Crimson Wife]

Sports I would drop since they only help if a student is good enough to be recruited as a varsity athlete. Obviously he should still exercise to stay healthy but I would pick either martial arts or badminton and do it for recreation rather than competing. 

 

Music I would pick one ensemble and drop the others. National Youth Orchestra would look good on apps.

[Dmmetler]

Honestly, I would 't worry about EC's much-your son has a very impressive resume, and just applying from NZ will make him stand out. One reason there is so much focus on EC's is that so many US kids have applications/backgrounds that look the same and the hope is to stand out somehow so that the admissions committee will remember the student as an individual in a sea of applications. IMO participant from NZ is pretty darned unique, without needing to add "badminton playing violinist" to be remembered :).

[lewelma]

Thanks for that, CW.  How would running a maths lecture series look?  Don't most universities look for some sort of volunteer work?  

 

The competition for badminton is pretty low key, as in 3 afternoons a year.  But you are saying even if he starts winning, that it is not worth much.

 

To get onto the National Youth Orchestra, he would have to do a full year of the City Youth Orchestra, which is a lot of time for a 'maybe'.  The National Youth Orchestra is obviously pretty competitive, so he would also have to put quite some time into becoming a better violinist.  Is that worth more than a math lecture series, given that his focus is math not music?

[lewelma]

 IMO participant from NZ is pretty darned unique, without needing to add "badminton playing violinist" to be remembered :).

 

Haha.  Actually, you are right that IMO kids from NZ get gobbled up which is why ds is interested.  But the last one who applied didn't get in, and the boy said it was because he didn't study for the SAT and didn't do well, so ds is taking that to heart. 

 

Also, the only way that DS can meet the 4x5 requirements is to apply as a homeschooler, because in NZ you are allowed to specialize and ds will not have the foreign language or history/humanities requirements on his correspondence school transcript. So now he will be the only homeschooled IMO student in NZ ever.  

 

Personally, I think that getting some work experience to put on his resume (the maths student association lecturer) would be more valuable long term than the Youth Orchestra.  But his teacher is pushing for the orchestra, so I will need to have something behind my opinion if I'm to sway ds. 

[Dmmetler]

I'm not a math person, but I can attest that STEM majors who were also musicians are pretty common, and since there isn't one national youth orchestra in the USA, that's a title that may not mean much. Basically every kid auditioning at a music scholarship day will have multiple pretty high performance credentials.

 

I think coaching/student lecturing would stand out more (and may be helpful in getting a similar position as a college student, since many schools have tutoring programs available on campus). I know that's the kind of project DYS seems to encourage their students to start/do.

[lewelma]

Got it.  Can't stand out in music either.  Haha.  America stinks when it comes to standing out.  Just too big!  DS is aiming for a high bronze for 2017, but the coach thought he should set his sights higher. Only way that is happening, is for us to prioritize the study, and this is exactly what ds wants to do.  Seems like you are saying 'be pointy'. 

[Lilaclady]

Lewelma, I have read your posts on your son's application and I just want you to remember that he is applying from NZ. There are thousands of students that apply each year from all over the world and they get into elite universities. A lot of these countries don't focus on volunteer work and meeting all the history, p.e and art that a student from the U.S. Has to worry about.

Your son has an excellent resume all ready- don't try and package it like he is an American homeschooler because that will take away from the strengths that he has. You don't have to follow the grid that students here have to follow.

He needs to have good SAT/ ACT and show passion- which he has a lot of with IMO but otherwise, let him study and do what interests him and will enrich him not what college admissions are looking for as that changes each year.

He needs to be pointy and focus on building his strengths without being spread too thin.

[regentrude]

I would not do anything about the extracurriculars with an eye on college admissions!

If he WANTS to do all these things because they enrich his life, he should. But I would not make him add anything (like the volunteering) if the sole purpose is to look good on the application.

 

A word about the "standing out": I do not think that is what is necessary. They want to see passion and sustained interest in something other than academics. He is not trying to win a music scholarship (for that, he'd have to stand out) - he is trying to show that he has interests besides school.

 

Life is short. High school years are precious life time. Let him do what he wants to do because he loves it, then package whatever it is for the application. It will be plenty impressive.

 

Just for perspective: my DD rode horses (no prestigious competitions, just small local shows and sustained training over all four years), sang in choir (not a prestigious choir, just the local uni one who does not even have music majors), volunteered as a physics tutor. No "spike". Just strong interests in very different fields. Apparently, some highly selective colleges liked it enough. Of course there is always the possibility that she got rejected from Harvard because she did not ride fancier horse shows, but it is what it is. I refuse to make young people jump through hoops whose position is so unclear anyway.

 

Let him do what he enjoys.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2016 by regentrude

[lewelma]

I appreciate what you guys are saying and I have read it here before -- Do what you love, not what you think admissions wants to see.  But the problem is that we HAVE to consider what admissions wants to see because ds will have finished ALL his highschool requirements in December as a 10th grader in the NZ system, but he wants to continue to compete in the IMO, given that his first shot was at 15, he thinks he can do better.  So basically we are in a holding pattern, because he cannot enter university and still compete at the IMO, and because he is finding the local university to be too easy (he was the only student who finished the midterm and he got 100%), he is now interested in an elite university.  This means that I have to find a way to keep him out of university, while keeping him competitive for elite USA universities even though he is done with NZ high school.  This is NOT an easy path to walk.  We have to be *careful* or he will either be disqualified from the IMO or will not be considered a freshman for USA admissions.  All this while still doing *something* interesting/academic/broad as a 11th and 12th grader so that the elite universities will find him competitive.  So although I appreciate the "just let him do what he likes," there is a little bit more to it.  If I allow him to do all the extracurricular activities he wants, there will be little time for academics except math.  However, he has finished the NZ highschool diploma, so he is a bit confused as to what else is *required* for USA admission, as am I.  If you say he doesn't need the 4x5 (which he does not have as NZ allows kids to be pointy), then what does he do for the next 2 years?  I think I need some nuanced advice here because it is kind of a mess.  

[regentrude]

I appreciate what you guys are saying and I have read it here before -- Do what you love, not what you think admissions wants to see.  But the problem is that we HAVE to consider what admissions wants to see because ds will have finished ALL his highschool requirements in December as a 10th grader in the NZ system, but he wants to continue to compete in the IMO, given that his first shot was at 15, he thinks he can do better.  So basically we are in a holding pattern, because he cannot enter university and still compete at the IMO, and because he is finding the local university to be too easy (he was the only student who finished the midterm and he got 100%), he is now interested in an elite university.  This means that I have to find a way to keep him out of university, while keeping him competitive for elite USA universities even though he is done with NZ high school.  This is NOT an easy path to walk.  We have to be *careful* or he will either be disqualified from the IMO or will not be considered a freshman for USA admissions.  All this while still doing *something* interesting/academic/broad as a 11th and 12th grader so that the elite universities will find him competitive.  So although I appreciate the "just let him do what he likes," there is a little bit more to it.  If I allow him to do all the extracurricular activities he wants, there will be little time for academics except math.  However, he has finished the NZ highschool diploma, so he is a bit confused as to what else is *required* for USA admission, as am I.  If you say he doesn't need the 4x5 (which he does not have as NZ allows kids to be pointy), then what does he do for the next 2 years?  I think I need some nuanced advice here because it is kind of a mess.  

 

So do I understand it correctly that you are looking for some academics to fill in the two years so he can still legitimately be counted a high schooler? And that the question is about this, and not actually about how to package extracurriculars?

[lewelma]

Well, it all seems to be mixed up together.  How will he spend the next 2 years?  More extracurriculars mean less time for rigorous classes.  We can still do all the academics needed, but they will by necessity take less time. 

 

So for example, doing more music can count as a class or an extracurricular. Doing a mathematics lecture series could count as a public speaking class or an extra curricular.  A lot of these things just overlap. 

 

Perhaps I think that ds has a great opportunity to unschool the last 2 years of high school because he has finished the official requirements. Extracurricular can BE his academics. He can follow his passions and not get caught up in standard university requirements. I just need to think how to sell it.

Edited October 2, 2016 by lewelma

[Reefgazer]

I agree with this; he is unique already ("homeschooled, badmitton-playing violinist!").  Many American kids load their resumes with volunteer or paid work to try and impress, so I would drop that because it wouldn't help him stand out from the crowd.

 

As far as filling your 2 remaining years with some academics. how about concentrating on some area where he you mentioned he comes up short (the humanities or foreign language)?

Lewelma, I have read your posts on your son's application and I just want you to remember that he is applying from NZ. There are thousands of students that apply each year from all over the world and they get into elite universities. A lot of these countries don't focus on volunteer work and meeting all the history, p.e and art that a student from the U.S. Has to worry about.
Your son has an excellent resume all ready- don't try and package it like he is an American homeschooler because that will take away from the strengths that he has. You don't have to follow the grid that students here have to follow.
He needs to have good SAT/ ACT and show passion- which he has a lot of with IMO but otherwise, let him study and do what interests him and will enrich him not what college admissions are looking for as that changes each year.
He needs to be pointy and focus on building his strengths without being spread too thin.

 

Edited October 2, 2016 by reefgazer

[lewelma]

I'm getting a lot of pressure from NZ friends that ds should have a job.  It is a cultural thing here.  Kids wash dishes, pull coffee, do manual labor.  But some kids who have skills train the junior basketball team.  So I just thought that doing a math-related job would help his resume, not his university application.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think maybe you are overthinking this.  I think that what makes your kid stand out will be the math competition homeschooler from NZ.  That he is also active in sports and music is great - if those are things he likes doing.  But there are also times where we all realize that there are only so many hours in a day and in a week.  

 

When you say elite school in the US, what sort of schools are you thinking of?  Are you only considering schools like Ivies and Stanford and MIT?  Or are you going down the rankings a bit to schools like Georgia Tech, Purdue, etc?  

 

 

[lewelma]

 

As far as filling your 2 remaining years with some academics. how about concentrating on some area where he you mentioned he comes up short (the humanities or foreign language)?

 

Yes, this is the plan.  Economics, Philosophy, Current Events. Plus finish up his 4 years of Mandarin.  He is also going to work on his writing through the correspondence school both in English and in Science Writing through the Bio, Physics, and Chem curriculum.  We've got plenty to do.  But if he does more time in extracurricular, he will do less time in Academics. I think he needs to choose among all the ECs he is considering, but he is not so sure because from his point of view he has finished high school requirements.  Not only finished them, but apparently he might be the valedictorian for a school of 16,000. Why does he need to do *more*? And if he can count his ECs as courses, then he can do them all.  

Edited October 2, 2016 by lewelma

[RootAnn]

I have nothing to contribute on the BTDT front from a volunteer/college application standpoint. I just wanted to say that as opportunities come up to add to his schedule, I'd sit with him to take a look at everything he's already doing and see if the new thing is worth dropping a current activity.

 

It is my understanding that right now, he's at a good balance of time spent on academics, physical activity, reading, and relaxing. (Although, when math season is in session, the balance tips toward Lots of Math with other things being somewhat crowded out.) He'll probably be able to handle more as he gets older, but one can't count on that as one plans for next year. If he doesn't think the new thing is worth dropping a current activity, there would have to be a really, really important reason to add it, IMO.

[lewelma]

Nice point RootAnn.  He does have a good balance right now, and I guess that is my concern about adding the youth orchestra.  He just thinks it sounds fun.  Problem is that he doesn't want to drop his trio because he is kind of in the unique position of playing with the son of the NZ String Quartet, as in THE NZ string quartet.  So he kind of has an 'in' into the music community.  If he drops the trio, they will replace him and he won't be able to get back in.  He could drop the string group, but he is already at the facility for the trio and the string group is right before, so it is not like a lot of work, and he is the first chair, so kind of a leadership experience. My guess is that he will try to ADD the orchestra without dropping anything, and then he will just do less academics.  Problem is that he works WAY better for an outside provider than for me, so if we homeschool his academics for the last 2 years he is not going to be easy to hold accountable.  But he does not want to do the NZ system anymore because the assessments are nationally moderated and VERY picky, and he is kind of done with that kind of work.  I think he wants to really study on his own and follow his own rabbit trails.  He's punched his ticket and is now ready to follow his own vision of his future.

[lewelma]

I think maybe you are overthinking this.  I think that what makes your kid stand out will be the math competition homeschooler from NZ.  That he is also active in sports and music is great - if those are things he likes doing.  But there are also times where we all realize that there are only so many hours in a day and in a week.  

 

When you say elite school in the US, what sort of schools are you thinking of?  Are you only considering schools like Ivies and Stanford and MIT?  Or are you going down the rankings a bit to schools like Georgia Tech, Purdue, etc?  

 

I think we were posting at the same time. Regentrude is right, this is actually about more than just ECs, it is about how academics and ECs interplay in unschooling when all highschool requirements are completed, but a student can't go to university yet.

 

Seems like Harvard is the one regularly taking the NZ IMO kids.  I don't know about any other universities yet as we need to research.  This is all new as of about 3 months ago after spending time with one of the Harvard kids at the IMO and after finding out the the local university is WAY too easy.  Before that, ds was set to go to Auckland.  Kind of a major turn around and I am just trying to figure out what to do.  

[regentrude]

Perhaps I think that ds has a great opportunity to unschool the last 2 years of high school because he has finished the official requirements. Extracurricular can BE his academics. He can follow his passions and not get caught up in standard university requirements. I just need to think how to sell it.

 

That is exactly what I was going to suggest. 

Have him do whatever he does and sell it well.

He will continue to do math - that is academic.

You can split off a part of music and count for academics.

He will continue to read - that is English. (Btw, my DD  unschooled English in 11th grade; she just read whatever literature she wanted and discussed it online with friends. Her reading list is impressive.)

You may continue his Economist studies. 

Keep in mind that you can award cumulative credit for work completed over the course of several years and "count" that in the year of completion - so give him his economics/current events credit in 11th or 12th grade.

And you can make a transcript by subject instead of by year.

 

I am very impressed by what you write about your son. He seems an ideal candidate for unschooling, because he will spend the time on very interesting and worthy pursuits. You just need to package what he does.

 

ETA: And because "outside validation" is always good, I would recommend that he continue to take one class at the university. Those grades will be valuable, and nobody will be able to accuse him of not challenging himself if he takes any DE. You might want to think about whether a class in a subject that is not math would be  better; he is clearly so much better than everybody that math classes are not rewarding for him - but perhaps a class in a subject that is not his outstanding strength would be better in this respect.

Edited October 2, 2016 by regentrude

[regentrude]

I'm getting a lot of pressure from NZ friends that ds should have a job.  It is a cultural thing here.  Kids wash dishes, pull coffee, do manual labor.  But some kids who have skills train the junior basketball team.  So I just thought that doing a math-related job would help his resume, not his university application.

 

"Help his resume" - for what purpose? He wants to go to university in the US, not be hired in a job in NZ.

If teaching is something he is passionate about and wants to do, he should go for it; it is very rewarding. But I would resist the pressure if it's just about looking good on paper. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm totally confused.  I thought colleges would want to see extras and not that they'd be turned off by several.  I'd be way more concerned if he had no outside interests, but with your situation I see zero to be concerned about.

 

 

[regentrude]

I'm totally confused.  I thought colleges would want to see extras and not that they'd be turned off by several.  I'd be way more concerned if he had no outside interests, but with your situation I see zero to be concerned about.

 

Read post #10; the OP clarified what the actual issue is.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm getting a lot of pressure from NZ friends that ds should have a job.  It is a cultural thing here.  Kids wash dishes, pull coffee, do manual labor.  But some kids who have skills train the junior basketball team.  So I just thought that doing a math-related job would help his resume, not his university application.

 

It's a cultural thing here too among some people.  So nothing so different.  I would do it if it makes sense, but not just because other people are pressuring me.

[Crimson Wife]

Nice point RootAnn.  He does have a good balance right now, and I guess that is my concern about adding the youth orchestra.  He just thinks it sounds fun.  Problem is that he doesn't want to drop his trio because he is kind of in the unique position of playing with the son of the NZ String Quartet, as in THE NZ string quartet.  So he kind of has an 'in' into the music community.  If he drops the trio, they will replace him and he won't be able to get back in.  He could drop the string group, but he is already at the facility for the trio and the string group is right before, so it is not like a lot of work, and he is the first chair, so kind of a leadership experience. My guess is that he will try to ADD the orchestra without dropping anything, and then he will just do less academics.  Problem is that he works WAY better for an outside provider than for me, so if we homeschool his academics for the last 2 years he is not going to be easy to hold accountable.  But he does not want to do the NZ system anymore because the assessments are nationally moderated and VERY picky, and he is kind of done with that kind of work.  I think he wants to really study on his own and follow his own rabbit trails.  He's punched his ticket and is now ready to follow his own vision of his future.

 

Then I would make music one of his courses. The high school I attended in 11th grade put me in chorus even though I can't carry a tune as they had an arts course graduation requirement and that was the option that fit into my schedule (I would've preferred drama or creative writing but the scheduling didn't work).

 

[Crimson Wife]

Volunteer work is something that we stress in our family as a moral obligation for everyone, not as something to be done as a way of making oneself look good on applications or resumes. For us, it's part of being a follower of Jesus, but even if we weren't Christian, trying to make this world a better place would still be important.

[lisabees]

Ruth - My gut says that good college admission folks can spot the difference between authenticity and inauthenticity.  That is why you allow your son to follow his heart, academically and extracurricularly.  

 

Remember - top-tier colleges are not looking for well-rounded students.  They are looking for well-rounded student bodies. Let your son fill that niche in his unique way.

 

One more bit of advice - worry just as much about your son selecting the right school, as well as hoping the school will see him as the right fit.  I hope you get the chance to visit these schools.  Sometimes the choice(s) are so clear when you step on campus and interact with the students and professors and faculty.

 

Enjoy this crazy time!

[zaichiki]

since there isn't one national youth orchestra in the USA, that's a title that may not mean much. 

Off topic, but...

 

Actually, there *is* a National Youth Orchestra here in the USA.  Link: http://www.carnegiehall.org/nyousa/ 

 

It's pretty recent, though, so no "lost points" for not knowing about it.  In the last couple of years it has earned a huge reputation and I know kids who have used it on their college apps. It's a definite application sparkle.

[zaichiki]

Ruth,

 

You've probably looked at their website, but if you use Harvard's recommended high school courses list as your measuring stick (try to package ds's last two years to look like this...), it might give you some place to start.

https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/preparing-college/choosing-courses

 

Also, Harvard has a badminton club and lots of chamber music opportunities (and SEVEN orchestras!) if your ds would like to continue with these interests in college...

 

(Not partial to Harvard, but you mentioned it, so...)

[Rosie_0801]

"Help his resume" - for what purpose? He wants to go to university in the US, not be hired in a job in NZ.

If teaching is something he is passionate about and wants to do, he should go for it; it is very rewarding. But I would resist the pressure if it's just about looking good on paper. 

 

I've never operated or known anyone who has operated at the levels Ruth is talking about, but if the cultural rules are the same as down here in Averageville, her son would be penalised if he wanted to come back and work in NZ if he hadn't any work experience on his resume.

[zaichiki]

I've never operated or known anyone who has operated at the levels Ruth is talking about, but if the cultural rules are the same as down here in Averageville, her son would be penalised if he wanted to come back and work in NZ if he hadn't any work experience on his resume.

A lot of kids at selective universities in the US do summer internships.  Would that count as resume-worthy work experience in NZ/Australia?

[Rosie_0801]

A lot of kids at selective universities in the US do summer internships.  Would that count as resume-worthy work experience in NZ/Australia?

 

Since Christmas and New Year are in the middle of summer here, we don't have a tradition of summer internships like the US seems to, but there are some available in some industries. Yes, they look good if you are going into that industry. They aren't a last minute option. Applications for things like that usually close months, and sometimes the year before. 

[lewelma]

I've never operated or known anyone who has operated at the levels Ruth is talking about

Seriously. Me neither.  How in the world did this happen??!?! Sometimes I feel like my ds needs a different mother, one who knows what to do.  :001_huh:  :blushing:

 

, but if the cultural rules are the same as down here in Averageville, her son would be penalised if he wanted to come back and work in NZ if he hadn't any work experience on his resume.

 

Basically, people here say a university graduate is not going to get a job without experience, but a university student will not get a job without experience.  So you need to get work as a high schooler to get your foot in the door. It seems to me that ds does not need to pull coffee or wash dishes or haul boxes like ALL the other teens I know, when he can train up the next generation of mathematicians.  Right?  I get CW's point that volunteer work is more than worthy, it is one's duty.  Personally, I think that helping out others and having a job (paid or unpaid) for your resume is more worthwhile than the youth orchestra. 

 

I also have the problem that if ds goes to the USA for university, if he wants to come home at all in the summer to be with his family, that he may not be able to get an internship.  This may not be a problem for people in the US who go to university in the US. 

 

ETA: I can't like your posts, Rosie, so pleas consider them liked!

Edited October 3, 2016 by lewelma

[Rosie_0801]

Basically, people here say a university graduate is not going to get a job without experience, but a university student will not get a job without experience.  So you need to get work as a high schooler to get your foot in the door. It seems to me that ds does not need to pull coffee or wash dishes or haul boxes like ALL the other teens I know, when he can train up the next generation of mathematicians.  Right?  I get CW's point that volunteer work is more than worthy, it is one's duty.  Personally, I think that helping out others and having a job (paid or unpaid) for your resume is more worthwhile than the youth orchestra. 

 

 

Teaching maths is far better than burger flipping, for sure, and while I'm a great believer in volunteer work, it isn't viewed the same way here as in the US. Volunteering *doesn't* replace a paying job on our resumes in most cases.

 

How would the teaching work, Ruth? Would he be employed by the maths association? Would he be working as a sole trader? 

 

Is the orchestra a paying gig? Do they donate their time to play in places regularly that could be dressed up as volunteer work?

[lewelma]

Our experience is that unpaid internships and volunteering in the chosen field whilst still studying is a way around the 'need experience, but how do I get experience if I can't get a job ?'

 

However, is this really going to be an issue for your son ? Aren't the rules different for very smart mathematicians ? I can't imagine a top tier graduate of a top tier college struggling to get work, whether or not he had a job as a teen.

Boy, I don't know.  Elite mathematicians don't seem to have a clear cut path.  They seem to need to focus on something else that *uses* maths unless they want to go the professor route, which I think is always a bit hard.  Basically, I know that in NZ that someone needs to die for there to be a job opening as a professor.  DS is young, and very idealistic, and thinks that everyone will want to hire him if he just works very hard. So we are working to make sure that he has a marketable skill besides theoretical maths - Machine learning, International banking etc.  In the end he needs something applied.  And he needs work experience.  I am just too aware of kids who go to university and come out without job prospects.  

 

I personally value volunteer work over extra extra curriculars. Because when you are living a privileged life, as many of our homeschooled teens are, it seems to me that giving something back is in order. 

 

.

 

I completely agree. I think ds is very privleged.  We live in a tiny flat and drive a 20 year old car, but we also want for nothing as we live way below our means. He knows we can afford Harvard, although not happily.  I think ds would be *very* good at training other kids for the olympiad and I think he would like it, a lot. But there are just so many other ECs that are bubbling up to the top.  But the others are for *him*, at some point I think he needs to do for *others*.  I'm not so sure that ds feels the same.

Edited October 3, 2016 by lewelma

[eternalsummer]

how much time does the city youth orchestra (is he currently in it?) take?  How much time does the national one take?  The National surely can't be more than once a week, right?

[lewelma]

Teaching maths is far better than burger flipping, for sure, and while I'm a great believer in volunteer work, it isn't viewed the same way here as in the US. Volunteering *doesn't* replace a paying job on our resumes in most cases.

 

How would the teaching work, Ruth? Would he be employed by the maths association? Would he be working as a sole trader? 

 

Is the orchestra a paying gig? Do they donate their time to play in places regularly that could be dressed up as volunteer work?

 

I think that volunteering in your field, especially mathematics, would count.  We have thought about burger flipping, but have decided that there is actually more money if he can pull off a silver in the IMO, so we are looking at the long game. Time he puts into burger flipping will clearly take away from IMO study, just no way around it.

 

The NZ student association picks 18 kids to be on the management committee, ds would either be 1) writing the exams (!!) and then grading them (other NZ IMO kids are doing this), or 2) he would be doing the markup in Latex, or 3) he could be running the training sessions in our city as all of them happen in Auckland because there is no one here with the interest or skill to do it.  If he does the classes, I would help him to get a room in the central library and they student association would advertise to the teachers/students.   

 

I'm sure I could dress up the orchestra as volunteer work, and probably will in the beginning.  But eventually, that will fall off the resume, while training future IMO kids could stay on it for longer. At least this is the way I see it.

Edited October 3, 2016 by lewelma

[eternalsummer]

Also, he already does the concerts at nursing homes, right?  That would be considered volunteer work here in the US (at least, I'd have gotten community service credit for it in high school)

[eternalsummer]

Does the national orchestra meet in wellington?  Would he have to travel a lot for it if it is in Auckland (or, god forbid, Christchurch)?

[lewelma]

Banking - he will need to do a lot of networking while at uni, and he'd probably have to sacrifice summers at home for the ability to intern. 

 

Well, ds is getting kind of head hunted already.   :huh:  I don't know what you call it when USA firms who are Market Makers send him t-shirts and bags.  I'm talking snail mails him this stuff to NZ!  It is kind of opening our eyes.  There are a set of firms who are targeting the IMO kids internationally; they had booths set up at the IMO in Hong Kong too. So perhaps 'banking' is not the right description.  Market makers?  I don't know. But they seem to want him, and he is certainly not networking at 16.

Edited October 3, 2016 by lewelma

[Rosie_0801]

he could be running the training sessions in our city as all of them happen in Auckland because there is no one here with the interest or skill to do it.  If he does the classes, I would help him to get a room in the central library and they student association would advertise to the teachers/students.   

 

Could he make a business out of running these types of classes? Entrepreneurialism would have to look pretty on the application forms, if he can keep it going until he's ready for uni applications. Then, with that experience, he may be able to re-open in the US if he has the right visa?

[lewelma]

Does the national orchestra meet in wellington?  Would he have to travel a lot for it if it is in Auckland (or, god forbid, Christchurch)?

 

Very good question.  I think they do weekends once a month throughout the country.  But I don't really know!  Definitely need to look at that.  The Wellington Youth Orchestra obviously meets in Wellington and that is what he would do for next year.  It would be the first step to auditioning for the National Youth Orchestra.

[lewelma]

Could he make a business out of running these types of classes? Entrepreneurialism would have to look pretty on the application forms, if he can keep it going until he's ready for uni applications. Then, with that experience, he may be able to re-open in the US if he has the right visa?

 

ooh.  Interesting.  Very interesting.  DS has a US passport.  There was a kid who got onto the NZ squad of 12 was tutored in competition maths and paid $150/hr.   :huh:

Edited October 3, 2016 by lewelma

[lewelma]

how much time does the city youth orchestra (is he currently in it?) take?  How much time does the national one take?  The National surely can't be more than once a week, right?

 

I think that the city youth orchestra meets 4 hours every monday.  I think the National orchestra meets once a month for a weekend. But serioiusly, how much music should he do?!?!  

 

Trio + competitions (2hr/week)

String group (2hr/week)

Orchestra (4hr/week)

Personal violin (5hr/week)

Going for Post secondary diploma, the 2 months before the exam will be 4 hrs/DAY.

Plus, he is learning piano on the side.

 

If he does all this, plus 10 hr/week of IMO study for 7 months a year, and 20hr/week for 5 months a year.

 

Plus Badminton/Martial arts at 10hrs/week

 

Plus I'm discussing the work experience of teaching competition maths classes at who knows how much time.

 

I think we are back to my original post.  ECs will take over his life.   :willy_nilly:

Edited October 3, 2016 by lewelma

[Rosie_0801]

ooh.  Interesting.  Very interesting.  DS has a US passport.  There was a kid who got onto the NZ squad of 12 was tutored in competition maths and paid $150/hr.   :huh:

 

Get endorsed by AoPS and charge $180 :lol: He could have the monopoly on Anzac territory!

 

 

Anyway, I vote the kid needs a job so he can buy a car and drive himself to all these activities. If you're paying for Harvard, he ought to pay petrol. :p

[eternalsummer]

How much free time does he currently have?

 

I think whatever he wants to do can be packaged to sell him well to elite universities.  Has he taken an ACT or SAT test?  Do you suspect he will score anything less than say a 34 composite?  He is already pointy (the IMO) and well rounded enough (he plays an instrument and does a sport).  From what you say he has more or less finished high school requirements for a NZ diploma?

 

I don't know how you could mess the next 2 years up, honestly.

[eternalsummer]

In favor of the job, I worked in the summers in high school.  I was a very academics-focused kid who was sure I wanted to grow up and be an English professor after getting a PhD at some amazing school.

 

Alas, it turned out that while I liked *learning* and I liked *teaching*, I hated academia.  Hated It.  

 

I learned almost nothing useful at university - but I did learn, though summers of working for a small dog grooming business, a lot about running a small business.

 

and that is what I do today :)  (only not a dog grooming one).

 

 

A job is a good idea.

[regentrude]

I've never operated or known anyone who has operated at the levels Ruth is talking about, but if the cultural rules are the same as down here in Averageville, her son would be penalised if he wanted to come back and work in NZ if he hadn't any work experience on his resume.

 

But he will undoubtedly acquire work experience while he is at college and in graduate school.  He can work as a tutor or peer learning assistance while an undergraduate, and as  a math grad student, he will be a TA or RA.

 

Again, if he WANTS to work, fine. But I would not panic if he does not.

Edited October 3, 2016 by regentrude

[regentrude]

Well, ds is getting kind of head hunted already.   :huh:  I don't know what you call it when USA firms who are Market Makers send him t-shirts and bags.  I'm talking snail mails him this stuff to NZ!  It is kind of opening our eyes.  There are a set of firms who are targeting the IMO kids internationally; they had booths set up at the IMO in Hong Kong too. So perhaps 'banking' is not the right description.  Market makers?  I don't know. But they seem to want him, and he is certainly not networking at 16.

 

And that could be his "in" for a summer internship. So really, I would not worry about him not being able to get an internship with his qualifications. He might consider nursing those contacts and possibly get a foot in the door even before he goes to college.

[Dmmetler]

One thing that pops to mind-will he have to self-fund for the IMO again this year? If so, it seems likely that the math route would pay better for fewer hours than most other ways a high school student could raise funds. Math tutors here get about $1/minute USD with a BS-and I suspect the IMO would be more valuable than a BS for parents looking for someone to coach a high ability math child who is interested in competition math. One of the highest paid high school students I've known was a kid who is internationally ranked pretty high in chess-I think he was able to get about $100/hr as a high school/undergrad student, and has made coaching his full-time business after college.