s/o SAHM question - partnership in marriage

[wendy not in HI]

I've enjoyed the previous thread about the challenge of changing marriage roles - it has made me think of some recent discussions with my good friend and my college aged daughters.

 

How do you teach your children to seek a partner* in marriage, whether they stay home or have a career (or both)?

 

Background - My dh and I married young, had kids right away, and I've always stayed home, very traditional lds sort of marriage.  That has worked for us, but things are changing as our kids are growing up and I'm taking on more responsibilities out of the home.  Though I am changing, my dh seems to be resisting the changes and is not quite as supportive as he could be.  I'm feel like I did not do a good job "training" him in our early marriage ;) I'm not trying to bash, and I'm really not trying to fix that problem in this thread.  I'm thinking more of my kids and their relationships in the future.  

 

I have two daughters in college, one recently married, and I'm thinking of them, though this applies to my younger dd and son, also.  I want my girls to feel like they can be and do anything, and I hope that they can establish patterns in their homes where both of the people in the relationship are partners - that dishes and laundry and babies and vacuuming and cars are shared responsibilities, not just the mom's job, even if she does stay home (or dad's job, depending).  I'm thinking that the happily ever after really depends on some good habits and patterns established early in a relationship...

 

Tips?  Suggestions?  Ideas? 

 

 

*partner - I'm not sure if that's the word I'm looking for, but something - equal, friend, co-parent, twuew love, etc

[Garga]

I think about this, too. My boys have only know the woman stays at home, man goes to work structure.

 

However, my dh does a lot of dishes and laundry. He tidies the house every day. He will dust and vacuum about as often as I do (which isn't very often.). He loves to iron. He cooks his own lunches on the weekends to take to work during the week.

 

So, they do see him partnering with me on household things.

 

I just talk to them about it. That their wives will probably work and so will they. They'll have to figure out how to take care of their own houses together.

 

Talking about it and maybe pointing out in popular culture (tv, magazines, books) where the women work outside the home as much as the men do--that's about all I can do at this point.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Garga

[Garga]

Actually, I told my son the other day, but in a flippant tone, that he shouldn't marry someone who wants a perfectly cleaned house, because then he'd need to be cleaning all the time and who wants to do that?? But that was sort of as a joke because my house is often dusty and cluttered and it was more of a self-depreciating remark than anything.

 

We happen to know some girls who are being raised in a perfectly cleaned house all the time and I know that it causes a lot of strain on the marriage because the wife's standards are too high. She often gets only 2-4 hours of sleep a night because she's cleaning, so I was making that comment thinking of her in the back of my mind.

 

But it's still sort of true. For day to day things, like cleaning, you do want a partner and someone on the same page as you for how to do things, or you have to be willing to change your mind about how they're done so you can work together with that person. (Barring the extreme of my friend who cleans until 4 in the morning.)

[Guest]

I don't know. I think some of the issue comes from change rather than "early training". People, as a general rule, prefer routine and change is hard. So whether a spouse worked for 15 years and then came home, versus a spouse stayed home 15 years and then when to work- I'm not sure there's anyway you can really prepare for something so far in the future. It would be like me planning now for what my life is going to be like when my kids are all moved out. I have no clue. I think more than anything its just the relationship, and trying to be a supportive spouse under any circumstance, rather than prepared for these either/or situations. The only way I can see to prep someone for that is to let them know relationships evolve, circumstances always change, and if you don't have an "we're in this together for the long haul" mentality, you're probably going to have some bumps. No one is going to be happy about every circumstance handed out- it's learning the maturity to deal with it as gracefully as possible. 

 

ETA- And some of this is acknowledging that things in life are rarely fair, or 50/50. It's a partnership rather than a competition of who does what. Sometimes you're going to have to pick up slack. Sometimes the other person is going to have to pick up the slack. It's important to select a partner willing to do that. A score keeper isn't someone who would be good marriage material, in my opinion, and for my oldest, I think those are more of the talks we have. I think when you have these expectations of who does what, when and were is a lot of times where people set themselves up for conflict, because life is fluid and plans rarely go according to schedule- at least around here. 

Edited September 23, 2016 by texasmom33

[Happy]

As the mom of two sons, I've tried to train them in the manly art of home care. :)

 

When they left my house, they knew how to prepare a few basic meals, do their own laundry, and how to clean a bathroom and run a vacuum and mop. Much of that knowledge leaked out of their heads the second they moved out. I saw those first apartments. Ugh.

My oldest is married and does not get the idea of shared responsibility for house work. I'm baffled because their dad is great in the kitchen and knows how to clean and keep a place nice. My sons watched him all their lives.

 

My youngest just moved back home for a bit--while I know the boy can cook (he is a chef) we have to twist his arm to get him to demonstrate the skill. I get that he cooks for hours at a time so we let him off, but....he seems to have forgotten how to clean up after himself.

 

No answer to your question--I thought I was doing great things for my daughters in law by all that training, but it didn't stick.

 

[Bluegoat]

I think I agree with texasmom - it's more about supporting each other, having some flexibility, and change of habits is almost always hard for people.  Typically I think with this stuff there will need to be an explicit discussion, because on person may not even notice that there needs to be a rebalancing.

 

I think making sure that kids know there is a duty and responsibility for everyone to pitch in is big, that it can look different ways, that responsibilities should be approached holistically rather than in a tit for tat way.  I think it helps to have some competence at housework and such, even with managing such things though that may be going too far for some - if people are competent they are more likely to notice what needs to be done and just do it.

 

It's also important not to expect others will always do things the way you would, or have the same priorities, or notice the same things.  And on the flip side, that waiting for direction all the time is a drag for others and makes them feel like a nag.

 

Our arrangement is fairly "traditional" as well, sometimes I think depressingly so.  I am household and most childcare, dh is work, cars, most banking and outdoors maintenance.  But I hope our kids see us as working together and being sensitive to what we all need.  In fact, dh is probably better at taking on my jobs when required than I am at taking on his. because I am really not skilled at some of his jobs.

[Guest]

 

 

It's also important not to expect others will always do things the way you would, or have the same priorities, or notice the same things.  And on the flip side, that waiting for direction all the time is a drag for others and makes them feel like a nag.

 

 

 

:iagree: a million times over on this statement. If I had learned this prior to marriage and before taking on management jobs I would have had much smoother sailing at the onset. If you delegate, and it gets done, it's done. It counts, no more commentary on the job necessary.  It doesn't matter if the towel edge you like isn't on the right side of the folded towel or the Excel report you requested uses a different format that you would've used. It was done. It's usable. Move on. Ah to go back in time to 21 year old me.........

[marbel]

<snip>

 

How do you teach your children to seek a partner* in marriage, whether they stay home or have a career (or both)?

 

<snip>

 

My kids know that our arrangement (stay home, non-income-producing mom taking care of the house, dad out working) is not the standard they should expect.  I agree that modeling the behavior we want - everyone pitching in -  is the ideal, but it's not always realistic.  It's just never going to work for us to have my husband participate in meals other than making suggestions and occasionally cooking something that I can't/don't.  It is unlikely they will ever see me hold a "real" job.    They do see my husband and me step out of our typical roles as needed.  I do like having a fairly predictable division of labor; it just seems more effective to me, but we can also do pick up the others' tasks as needed. My husband is much better than I at seeing and attacking cobwebs, for example.  :-)  

 

But we talk a lot, and my kids know that their lives are probably going to be vastly different than their dad's and mine.  My daughter in particular seems to have no desire to be a stay home mom completely (financially) dependent on a husband.  (Of course that may change.)   My son, well, he's a late bloomer and pretty clueless right now but he's certainly been exposed to the idea. 

 

I didn't marry for real till late in life; age 39.  I was 41 and 42 when my kids were born.  My kids know that I had a professional life before they came along.  They know other working parents.  My daughter in particular understands different family structures from her job in a cafe, and she sees how hard certain lifestyles are.   

 

Not sure if that really answers the question!   Interesting discussion in any case. :-)

Edited September 23, 2016 by marbel

[gardenmom5]

I've enjoyed the previous thread about the challenge of changing marriage roles - it has made me think of some recent discussions with my good friend and my college aged daughters.

 

How do you teach your children to seek a partner* in marriage, whether they stay home or have a career (or both)?

 

Background - My dh and I married young, had kids right away, and I've always stayed home, very traditional lds sort of marriage.  That has worked for us, but things are changing as our kids are growing up and I'm taking on more responsibilities out of the home.  Though I am changing, my dh seems to be resisting the changes and is not quite as supportive as he could be.  I'm feel like I did not do a good job "training" him in our early marriage ;) I'm not trying to bash, and I'm really not trying to fix that problem in this thread.  I'm thinking more of my kids and their relationships in the future.  

 

I have two daughters in college, one recently married, and I'm thinking of them, though this applies to my younger dd and son, also.  I want my girls to feel like they can be and do anything, and I hope that they can establish patterns in their homes where both of the people in the relationship are partners - that dishes and laundry and babies and vacuuming and cars are shared responsibilities, not just the mom's job, even if she does stay home (or dad's job, depending).  I'm thinking that the happily ever after really depends on some good habits and patterns established early in a relationship...

 

Tips?  Suggestions?  Ideas? 

 

 

*partner - I'm not sure if that's the word I'm looking for, but something - equal, friend, co-parent, twuew love, etc

 

Also lds, also married young, had kids right away, and always stayed home.  (except for some bouts of unemployment, when I worked.)

 

because both dh's and my father died when we were teens, we know first hand what loss of 'breadwinner' income does to a family. (our mothers were working office jobs.)  I encouraged my girls for education in fields where they could comfortably support a family on their own if need be.  they are also very flexible fields, so they can work just a few hours a month if they wish while children are small.  

 

what attracted me to dh is one of the things we've encouraged in our children.  he loved the gospel as much as I did. (dh dated A LOT before we started dating.  he wanted  to get married, but none of them were a 'match'. after 34 years,  I still hear how I'm better than whomever was in 2nd place.   I've met some of his former girlfriends.  I liked them a lot.) 

 

I've also encouraged them to think about "are you a better person for being with this person?"

there are simply some things I've noticed if they're the priority, other things will fall into place.

that said, 1ds' gf is not lds, but he wants to marry her. (he's an engineering student). he is also open to: if it doesn't work out, there is a better 'fit' out there (goes for her too.).  but he is a better person for being with her. (that includes his commitment to the gospel/praying for guidance.)

 

if they are emotionally and spiritually healthy and mature - they are more likely to be attracted to, and attract, that kind of person.

how chores and family caregiving get divided up should be based upon who has time for what,  talents, and interests in said direction.   (e.g.  dh unloads the dishwasher.  I hate it, he doesn't mind.  I load it - he doesn't like it, and I have no problem with it.)

 

  dh loves to cook - it actually would drive me NUTS because I'd be making dinner, he'd come in and ask me what I was making and start making suggestions.  he loves to experiment in his cooking.  to the point, a standard family question is "what did you do differently this time?"  I've had to repeatedly make clear he is not welcome in the kitchen if I'm cooking.  if I want his input, I will ask.

[Arcadia]

My hubby has an older brother and sister. What they want is different even though both BIL's wife and SIL works.

 

SIL is in the Air Force while her husband is a lecturer. She does all the laundry because of her Air Force uniforms form the bulk of laundry. He takes the kids to dentist, doctors and extracurriculars. He looks after the kids when his workplace is not in session. That is what they agree on before marriage.

 

BIL is in tech sales and his wife wanted to be a SAHM. She quit a to her low paying computer science job when her kids were young but family income was not stable enough to support a housekeeper so she went back to work as a keyboard teacher and MLM. So their ideal was for her to be a SAHM and to have a housekeeper but BIL was unemployed a few times and tech sales is only good income for those that are good at selling. My ex-colleague sells high end computer servers to big corporations and his commission is high enough to afford a lot of luxuries. His wife is better at sales.

 

My hubby is against a housekeeper or even those once a week cleaners. However he does all housework other than cooking. If I am not up to cooking, he and kids can make their own sandwiches, eat cereal or even instant noodles. My hubby does all chauffeuring and we take public transport if he is busy. That is what we agree upon. My MIL was the traditional do it all and working as well with no say over finance. So hubby is very different from his dad in that manner.

[redsquirrel]

I think it in part it is role modeling.  My dh and I have a relationship that is equitable. We are equals, we don't have 'spheres' as dictated by our gender. My dh is as competent and involved a parent as I am and he makes it very clear that my homschooling is as much a job as his. Just because I am home with the kids, doesn't mean that I am also responsible for the housework.  I have a job, homeschooling, and that doesn't include maid duty.  I also frequently remind my children that I was not put on this earth to clean up after them, and if they think anyone is going to joyfully do so in the future, they have another think coming.

 

I also talk to my boys about my job before they came along. I talk about how much I liked it, and how I was sad to quit. They know that I am looking forward to returning to paid work in a few years, even though I don't yet know what that is.  I talk about my first apartment, when I lived on my own. I talk about how unusual it is that they have a mom who is at home with them. 

 

When I speak of their future I say things like 'Maybe your partner will have such a good job that you will have to move far away"..I should add that I never say that I expect them to get married and/or have kids.  I always phrase it as 'If you choose to get married in the future' or 'if you chose to become a parent'.  Frankly, with things being what they are, it is highly unlikely that they will both get married. Statistically, it is more likely they will become parents without getting legally married, and I don't want to create a situation where they think I won't accept their family no matter how it looks. I also take a page out of my mother's book and say things like 'After you are done with college and have worked a few years and are thinking about settling down..."   She planed that timeline firmly in our heads, lol.  The message her daughters were raised with was that we were expected to go to college and support ourselves for a few years before thinking about getting married.  It did hold true for all four of us.

 

DH has really taken it upon himself to be a role model in this area for the kids. He has always done bedtime duty with the kids, he does the laundry as his regular household chore and is the one who taught ds1 how to do his own.  He has gone out of his way a few times to take time off from work and taken over homeschooling in order to allow me to do something out of the ordinary....just as I have had to deal with him traveling for work.

[carriede]

My DH has higher deep cleaning standards than I do. He also recognizes the value of me being a SAH-MOM, not just a housekeeper.

 

So, if he notices the floor needs to be vacuumed, the fridge cleaned out, or the stove top scrubbed, he does it! And he does it with a smile and NOT as a favor to me. He sees it and does it (if he can) simply because it needs to be done.

[Guest]

See, I think looking for some equality in work output or responsibilities is inherently flawed. Marriages are unbalanced by nature - some seasons and tasks put a lot more stress on one partner than the other, and sometimes there isn't much for it (hard job, newborn baby, etc).

 

My aim for the kids is to have them look for someone with similar values to them who *cares* enough to do their best, whatever the task at hand. Someone empathetic and diligent, who is pulling the cart the same direction as you. Then they BOTH need to keep their eyes on their own work and give it their best. Each person doing 100%. The natural outgrowth of that is camaraderie instead of resentment, because whatever the breakdown of responsibilities ends up being, neither partner is 'slacking' or getting a free pass. Both people are in it together, to the same end goal, and doing their best in their personal capacity to achieve it with the circumstances they are in.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[lllll]

nm

Edited October 5, 2016 by Cathi

[StephanieZ]

For me, I think it comes down to modeling -- by both parents. 

 

I am the primary at home parent, and my dh is the breadwinner. 

 

BUT, I am well educated and very involved in our family and business finances (the primary decision maker on financial and strategic issues), etc. 

 

There is very little work at home that dh doesn't pitch in on to the extent of time available . . . There are some jobs I do 90% of and some he does 90% of, but not because they are women jobs or men jobs, but because they are things we like and are good at (or hate and suck at). All the kids are expected to pitch in on all tasks and to show respect to both of us parents (and to each other). Our son helps wash up after dinner just as our girls do . . . 

 

The kids see and know that there is no one leader in this marriage. There are two partners, and we balance and negotiate our responsibilities and decisions as they come along. With plenty of respect and love, we have never had the need for a "boss" or "head" in our family. 

 

I think that if your family models mutual respect and trust/love/admiration, then your kids will pick up on it. I really believe that's a huge part of the equation.

 

Beyond that, supporting your kids in their educations and financial independence goes a long way to helping them establish their identity as strong, independent individuals and partners. 

 

 

[LucyStoner]

We teach:

 

1. Any household job can be anyone's. We each do what we have time for and are good at.

 

2. All contributions to a household are valuable. When I was the primary breadwinner I wasn't contributing more or less than I am now as a homemaker/at home parent/primary homeschool teacher. Same thing for my husband.

 

3. Modeling these things without preaching.

 

4. Being skeptical of claims and social norms that any job (not tied to biological necessity like gestating or breastfeeding) needs to be tied to being male or female.

 

In our marriage equality doesn't mean split everything 50-50. It means to respect and value each person equally.

[regentrude]

We model. I believe that how children witness their parents handling their relationship while growing up has the strongest impact, more than any explicit teaching.

Partnership and equality have nothing to do with each person doing the same tasks.

DH and I have a fairly traditional division of labor: since I work fewer hours in my job, I am the one who does most of the household work. I happen to enjoy cooking, whereas he does not; he OTOH enjoys fixing things on the house or car and handling finances, tasks I don't like. 

What is important is that we each value each other's work, share the work in equal measure (but not split each task equally), that we are supportive of one another, give each other room to grow, like to spend time together and also are comfortable spending and letting the other spend time without ourselves.

Our children observe. The see us treat each other with respect. They see both parents work. They see both of us pursue our own interests and see the other supporting of the partner's personal growth. 

[Wheres Toto]

I definitely think the key is modeling.  What we've modeled here is basically anything goes, and be flexible. 

 

When the kids were little, I was home with them during the day, homeschooled, and did most of the cleaning.  Dh worked full time and cooked dinner every night.

Then they had a private teacher, while I worked full time, dh worked mostly out of the house full time (self-employed so schedules varied).  I did most of the deep cleaning and all the laundry, but dh cooked dinner every night, and daily cleaning was probably split pretty evenly.

Now, I'm back home during the day, doing a couple of part-time jobs, and homeschooling, while dh works full time out of the house.  He still cooks dinner every night (I don't think that's ever going to change, he's a much better cook than I am), does most of the grocery shopping.  I do most of the cleaning and all the laundry.

 

I think what I want my kids to realize is, you can agree to a certain set-up when you first get married/start a relationship, but life happens and you have to be willing to work together when it does.  Dh and I agreed that I would stay home with the kids (although we didn't think that would include homeschooling until it happened).  When he started his own company and we needed steadier income and benefits, I went back to work.  We did what we could to make sure the kids still got what they needed, that I wasn't overwhelmed, and things got done, but I didn't refuse to get a job because that's not what we agreed to.    Flexibility is important, IMO, you can't predict the future.

[LucyStoner]

My sons and I have been watching the Wonder Years in order for awhile now. We reached the episode where Norma goes to work as a comptroller and husband and sons take it badly despite the fact that her kids are all basically grown- one is married, one is graduated from high school and working and the youngest has about 1 year of high school left. Also Kevin's ego is bruised when Winnie way outperforms him on the SATs. I had some serious cultural translating to do for my sons during and after that episode. They were both genuinely baffled. It was pretty illuminating to me on cultural shifts. My younger son was like "one of them could make dinner!" My older son thought it was flat out preposterous of Kevin to feel badly about Winnie's score.

 

I saw a husband freak out when his wife went back to work one time. I was visiting a friend in high school and his mom had just started a PT job and his dad was apparently used to all his shirts being ironed by her. He literally came out into the family room where she was helping us with planning a project and just kept repeating that he needed his shirt ironed. It was 6:30 pm on a Sunday night. He needed the shirt the next day. He said it multiple times until she got up and ironed his shirt. What did he do while she ironed his shirt? He watched her while she worked. Both of them were nice people but it was bizarre and I remember thinking "if I ever marry, it will be to someone who can operate an iron." I do most all of the laundry and I do iron my husband's shirts. But it would ever occur to him, not in 100 years, to get me to stop what I was doing so I could iron his shirt for the next day. He'd get out the ironing board and iron his own shirt. when the laundry was his job he ironed all the time. When I am behind in the laundry he will wear something else (like pulling a light sweater over his collared shirt) or just iron it himself.

 

In the Wonder Years episode I mentioned, Jack declares he has a hole in his sock with the same inflection my friend's dad used about his shirt needing to be ironed. I'm glad my husband is not like that. I don't think our sons will be either.

[Bluegoat]

My sons and I have been watching the Wonder Years in order for awhile now. We reached the episode where Norma goes to work as a comptroller and husband and sons take it badly despite the fact that her kids are all basically grown- one is married, one is graduated from high school and working and the youngest has about 1 year of high school left. Also Kevin's ego is bruised when Winnie way outperforms him on the SATs. I had some serious cultural translating to do for my sons during and after that episode. They were both genuinely baffled. It was pretty illuminating to me on cultural shifts. My younger son was like "one of them could make dinner!" My older son thought it was flat out preposterous of Kevin to feel badly about Winnie's score.

 

I saw a husband freak out when his wife went back to work one time. I was visiting a friend in high school and his mom had just started a PT job and his dad was apparently used to all his shirts being ironed by her. He literally came out into the family room where she was helping us with planning a project and just kept repeating that he needed his shirt ironed. It was 6:30 pm on a Sunday night. He needed the shirt the next day. He said it multiple times until she got up and ironed his shirt. What did he do while she ironed his shirt? He watched her while she worked. Both of them were nice people but it was bizarre and I remember thinking "if I ever marry, it will be to someone who can operate an iron." I do most all of the laundry and I do iron my husband's shirts. But it would ever occur to him, not in 100 years, to get me to stop what I was doing so I could iron his shirt for the next day. He'd get out the ironing board and iron his own shirt. when the laundry was his job he ironed all the time. When I am behind in the laundry he will wear something else (like pulling a light sweater over his collared shirt) or just iron it himself.

 

In the Wonder Years episode I mentioned, Jack declares he has a hole in his sock with the same inflection my friend's dad used about his shirt needing to be ironed. I'm glad my husband is not like that. I don't think our sons will be either.

I think mid-20th century was much closer to a time when tasks were divided by gender in a way that was much trickier to overcome, and not just for social reasons.  There were a lot more specialized skills most people had in the pre-WWII era that would take a real time commitment to learn, and the idea of switching the male and female workplaces wasn't so simple without reliable birth control.

 

It does seem to make it hard for today's young people to understand because their experience is just so different.