Could your 2nd grader do this math problem?

[Guest]

It's interesting to me that, despite there being multiple people who said their seven-year-olds couldn't have read the problem independently, no one said that reading simple word problems is a skill that is "age appropriate for a typical second grader."

 

However, if a neurotypical second grader can't do the math, it's because the parent is teaching them wrong. Or using the wrong curriculum.

 

I wonder why some people are so much more forgiving when it comes to varying levels of reading ability, but so rigid about working at the "correct" level for math?

You completely misread my intent. My point was that a neurotypical kid might be physically capable and just not exposed to that particular style of problem yet. A kid not being able to work it doesn't mean they aren't smart enough, sometimes it just lacking tools in the toolbox.

 

To be analagous to reading, it's like saying a kid who hasn't been taught a phonogram is incapable of sounding of a word, when in fact they are entirely capable but just lack the supporting skill exposure. Had they been given it, the 'problem' disappears.

 

I believe some kids really can't think through a change of two problem, but in the scope of age appropriate math skills it wouldn't be the norm. Of course there is a range but I am always quicker to assume there is just a small difference in the skills taught and acquired than some inherent deficiency in the student - it's like saying a Montessori kid is dumb or delayed if they can diagram a sentence in fourth grade like a traditional track kid, when the only difference is the approach to skill acquisition and not intellectual ability at all.

 

 

You can hear that as a teaching criticism, but in my experience I think it can be comparing apples to oranges to survey kids and think that tells the whole story of either their innate abilities OR skill. Knowing what they were taught and if it is even fair to ask the question based on their exposure is a wiser starting point.

 

And this is neurotypical kids - these judgments are doubly unfair in a kid with any delays or challenges.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[ErinE]

We did Singapore Math word problems which are similar. Both my older kids could have done it.

Edited August 31, 2016 by ErinE

[ErinE]

Mine could have by the end of 2a, but we also used Singapore, which really focuses on word problems and working backwards. (I say 2a because addition/subtraction is covered heavily in 2a). Possibly even by the end of 1a.

 

Having said that she also would have probably argued that at the very start of the trip, no passengers would have been on the train yet-they would have been waiting at the station gate. We had a lot of missed math problems due to adding information based on real-life experience until she finally grudgingly accepted solving the problem and writing additional comments in the margins.

DS13 does the all the time! We've had to work on this for several years. Every time he takes a standardized test, he wants to argue the correct answer for some squishy problem.

[HomeschoolingHearts&Minds]

My 7-year-old just beginning 2nd grade math work was thrown off by the numbers, so I gave her the same problem with smaller numbers, and she figured out how to do it instantly.  "Oh, that's easy!"  

 

Plugging in the original numbers made her nervous, but she was still able to solve it.  I suspect that if it were later in the year it wouldn't have been an issue.  

 

Not sure how my other kids would have done at that age, but I suspect it would be a mixed bag---they have all developed at different rates in mathematical thinking and logic.

[DawnM]

Probably.  They are well beyond 2nd grade now so I can't say for sure.

 

But my oldest didn't read until age 9, so he would have had to have me read to him.

[raptor_dad]

Yes. I gave the problem to DS7 at breakfast to confirm my intuition and he did it with no issues. He figured out the net change on loading/unloading easily and then had to talk himself through whether to add or subtract that based on the problem but got it all on his own. He just started 2nd grade in a public school that uses the Singapore Primary Math books.

Edited August 31, 2016 by raptor_dad

[Seasider]

three of my four could

[frogger]

I think there is a huge difference in saying the average NT child could do it and all NT children can do it. NT just means within a normal range. It doesn't mean all kids are alike and figure things out at the same speed even if taught the methods or tools. I would be cautious in blaming teaching techniques or worrying that everyone's kid could understand it except mine. Some children have very linear thinking. You might have to give them extra tools or specific steps to see the problem for what it is whereas some children would simply see the whole problem naturally. They will both get there in the end but one child will take longer for that type of problem. The big picture kid who can see that naturally may slow up in comparison when doing things that require them to slow down and do things step by step. I have had to give extra steps on how to have self control and do the tedious steps without making mistakes for those particular children.

[LucyStoner]

Beginning of second grade?  Maybe.  End of second grade?  Absolutely.  Most second graders turn 8 at some point during their second grade year.  Only summer babies would be 7 all year long.  At the end of second grade, some are closer to 9 than to 8.  

 

My son (7 years, 8 months and "starting" 2nd grade in the fall) looked at it and said uhh, dunno.  And then said "two more people got off than got on".  That's the crux of the problem.  

Any adult who would struggle with this problem as the article suggests?  I assume has a learning disability or just never learned any math at all.  

 

ETA:  I have used a fairly laid back approach to math with him.  He's not accelerated or especially inclined towards math.  We've used Kitchen table math, manipulatives, games and he's basically finished Math in Focus grade 1 but we've done that intermittently.  He will probably do Math in Focus grade two this year and then we will shift to Beast Academy.  This month we have talked a lot about the distance between two numbers so I am betting that is why he was able to puzzle it out.  3 months ago he wouldn't have been able to do this problem without hints/help.  

Edited August 31, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Meriwether]

Dd6 did it. I read it to her, though, and cheated a good deal by adding "Did more people get off or on?" to the question.

[QueenCat]

Yes. And when I taught second grade, the overwhelming majority of my students could do that type of math by Christmas of 2nd grade.

[6packofun]

Maybe 1 of my 6 kids would have been able to do this in 2nd grade. (Reading the problem would not have been an issue for any, though.)

[Murphy101]

My 7 yr old could read it and do the math.

 

Of past children of mine, 2/9 would have had a bit of difficulty. 1 wasn't reading fluently 7, but if I had read it to him the math would have been easy. Another would have read it easily, but needed guidance on how to back track to the answer.

 

Regardless, I don't much care if a 2nd grader can do it.

 

I'm a lot more concerned that apparently a lot of adults can't do it. And bc they can't, their ignorance is coloring whether they think any 2nd grader should even be taught it or expected to do it. That's rather scary.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Murphy101

[hepatica]

My 8yo DS solved it with no problem, but he can't yet read the problem fluently (He solved it using mental math in about 15 seconds. I suppose if he were in school his lack of reading fluency would preclude him being in any advanced math). He has completed Singapore Primary Math 2B.

 

Btw, his method was 63-17+19.

[SporkUK]

My end-of-Year 2 child did it though I had to read it to her a few times [which I have to do for all word problems] and she added a few extra on her first try before I wrote the numbers down bigger for her. She used 'two more left than got on'  thinking. 

 

The reason this is a big deal in England and Wales [scotland and Northern Ireland have different education and testing systems] is the latest National Curriculum changes and testing has a lot of people angry -- particularly where the goal posts for certain levels/grades were moved mid and later in the year which I agree was really unfair to those testing for qualifications and their teachers. There are quite a few other things that are really frustrating about the changes - history has been hobbled and whitewashed for 'British values', PE and the arts have against been pushed down, and the new computing section reads like someone threw jargon at the wall and saw what stuck will little thought on how it would get it done particularly on any sort of budget with too few computing teachers. 

 

But really - much like the US's Common Core - it's a lot of people who are unhappy it isn't like in their day. The original tweet was to Michael Rosen who pretty much hates all the 'new' requirements...including all phonics and teaching grammatical terms. He's an author and was Children's Laureate. He's the backing a lot of parents here use in their arguments. Home educating parents [and private schools and state academies] aren't even required to use the National Curriculum but he's still thrown around by a lot as the reason they're doing something and used to convince a lot of new home educating parents they shouldn't bother or worry about things. I kinda blame him for why the 'my child learned to read without any help, phonics and being bothered by reading ability is a waste of time' that is a big badge of honour for parents around here which demoralizes a lot of parents and kids who struggle with English and practically any other topic as Rosen and his ilk seem to think that kids will just get everything if they 'really need and want it'. 

[RKWAcademy]

my new 2nd grader DS read it just fine.  It took him a minute but he got the right answer.  I didn't ask my 2nd grade DD.  She probably wouldn't have gotten the problem without some help.

[FaithManor]

We used Singapore Math so the kids were all exposed to similar problems. They would have been able to do it.

 

They would also have been able to read it. Some students might need assistance with that, but still be expected to reason it through by the end of 2nd grade or early third at least judging by what the semi decent PS in our county is doing. The crappy ps's?? Uhm...no!

[slackermom]

My dd is well beyond 2nd now, but I asked her if she could do the problem. She answered correctly in about a second, and then asked why I was giving her first grade problems. Then she said, Wait, what about the conductor? I answered, well, if he's a person, he's included in the number they give, and if he's NOT a person, we don't need to count him, right?

 

I did read somewhere, a long while ago, that most kids under a certain age couldn't process numbers above a certain point. I think the age was about 6, and the number was maybe 46? So, if the number of passengers given was 33, rather than 63, perhaps it might be easier for kids that age to comprehend?