S/O Obedience: If you value obedience in children, what are examples of disobedience?

[Bluegoat]

One  reason we had to rejigger the cultural norms about parenting and "obedience" here was because my sons wither under the obedience model.  I'm not setting them up to fail at something they struggle with and then writing that narrative of failure as the story of their life.  They thrive with a more cooperative, laid back, we are in this dinghy together and all suffer if someone capsizes us type approach.  Sometimes people say "well, yeah that gentle stuff works for you because your kids are just cooperative and easy" and I just laugh and laugh and laugh.  If only they had just been easy and helpful and cooperative.  

 

I'm not sure this is different than what happens in homes where people say they value obedience.  I'm not sure I ever say the word to my kids, and I've only rarely framed it as a matter of they really need to do what I say because I am the parent.  And that mostly with my older child who can see the reasoning for that in a more mature way.

 

To me its a question of whether what is going on reflects the idea, not the particular semantics.  I might never have to, or never choose, to present myself to my kids as an authority - but that power dynamic still exists even if it is latent or seldom used.  And my goal in any case if for them to undertstand and be capable of adult obedience - if I choose to be laid back, or more authoritarian, in different circumstances, that's still where I hope to go.

[LucyStoner]

I'm not sure why it is so important for some to seemingly try and "prove" to people that they actually do value something that they say they don't. Why not take them at their word?

 

When I say my sons withered under an obedience centered paradigm I am saying just that. Nothing more. Nothing less. I assure you that it's not just me using another name for the same thing. Trying to prove to people that they don't actually know what they are talking about or doing in their own household is a fairly tiresome and rude occupation. People can and do structure their home lives without valuing obedience as a virtue. Nor is the end result necessarily rude, nasty or unruly children.

 

Parenting has not come easily to me (not that it does to most anyone) and I have worked very hard building a mostly cohesive, mostly peaceful relationship with two special needs kids who struggle mightily with many social norms. When I speak from my own experience, for myself and certainly not critical of another, it would be swell if people just believed that I might just know better than internet people what paradigm is chugging along in my home. I am not just describing the same thing and I truly do reject the idea that as a parent I have to control or extract obedience or compliance from my sons.

[Guest]

With my teen very little looks like obedience, partly because you can't pick up a teenager and put them in the car or whatever, lol. You can with a toddler. What I was trying to say is that those that call it obedience aren't doing anything different than what you are saying. We aren't freaking out, escalating, etc just because we call it obedience. Rules need to be followed to keep the house running smoothly, just like laws need to be followed to keep a society running smoothly. Sometimes there is good reason to change the rules or laws, and I will absolutely listen if they want to suggest a change. But we do have rules. That doesn't mean I'm in some kind of power struggle all the time, looking to swoop down with authority to shame them and punish them if they don't follow them.

It may not be in your household. But I have seen this way more in families who outspokenly value obedience. Also, a parent can escalate without apparently "freaking out." Haven't you ever heard of the calm punishment delivery? "Fine. Don't go to church with us. Maybe when you want me to drive you over Madison's house, I won't feel like it, either."

 

It is true I couldn't pick up my 17yo and plop him in the car, happy or not, but I'm saying we just don't have that dynamic of Do What I Say. If he said, "I don't want to go to church," that's okay. We're going to talk about it because I want to know what motivates the desire to not go.

 

I know you're maintaining that it's just semantics and there is no difference in calling it obedience or not, but I maintain there is a difference, though it may be subtle in some families. If going to church with the family is obedience, refusing to go is disobedience - what else could it possibly be? If going to church with the family is just an established part of our family cultutre and my kids go either happily or at least neutrally, then refusing to go is not disobedience. It's an opportunity for me to understand what isn't working for that kid about that experience any more. In fact, the teen may not have to actually "refuse," just explain they have some different ideas about faith and want to consider that.

[ktgrok]

Parenting has not come easily to me (not that it does to most anyone) and I have worked very hard building a mostly cohesive, mostly peaceful relationship with two special needs kids who struggle mightily with many social norms.

 

I think what we are bristling at is the assumption that those who choose to use the word obedience, or rules, or whatever, don't have a mostly cohesive, mostly peaceful, respectful relationship based on love and understanding. It seems to be being implied that if you value relationship and your child's personality quirks and such, that isn't obedience based parenting. 

[ktgrok]

Parenting has not come easily to me (not that it does to most anyone) and I have worked very hard building a mostly cohesive, mostly peaceful relationship with two special needs kids who struggle mightily with many social norms.

 

I think what we are bristling at is the assumption that those who choose to use the word obedience, or rules, or whatever, don't have a mostly cohesive, mostly peaceful, respectful relationship based on love and understanding. It seems to be being implied that if you value relationship and your child's personality quirks and such, that isn't obedience based parenting. 

 

And that you are assuming what our paradigm is based on, while saying others shouldn't assume about yours. 

[ktgrok]

It may not be in your household. But I have seen this way more in families who outspokenly value obedience. Also, a parent can escalate without apparently "freaking out." Haven't you ever heard of the calm punishment delivery? "Fine. Don't go to church with us. Maybe when you want me to drive you over Madison's house, I won't feel like it, either."

 

It is true I couldn't pick up my 17yo and plop him in the car, happy or not, but I'm saying we just don't have that dynamic of Do What I Say. If he said, "I don't want to go to church," that's okay. We're going to talk about it because I want to know what motivates the desire to not go.

 

I know you're maintaining that it's just semantics and there is no difference in calling it obedience or not, but I maintain there is a difference, though it may be subtle in some families. If going to church with the family is obedience, refusing to go is disobedience - what else could it possibly be? If going to church with the family is just an established part of our family cultutre and my kids go either happily or at least neutrally, then refusing to go is not disobedience. It's an opportunity for me to understand what isn't working for that kid about that experience any more. In fact, the teen may not have to actually "refuse," just explain they have some different ideas about faith and want to consider that.

 

 I think maybe I get what you are saying. Although, going to church has never been a matter of obedience. It's something I like them to do, but the teen hasn't gone in forever, despite me desperately wishing he would. Because faith shouldn't be about obedience. 

 

But taking the trash is about obedience, because he hates getting up early to take it out, but also forgets to take it out in the evening, even when reminded. He does it because it is his job. Now, I've never used the word obedience when speakng to my kids, that I know of. I just make rules, and try to get them to follow them. I've never, outside this thread, discussed obedience, lol. I just figure expecting kids to follow the rules IS expecting obedience. 

[LucyStoner]

I think what we are bristling at is the assumption that those who choose to use the word obedience, or rules, or whatever, don't have a mostly cohesive, mostly peaceful, respectful relationship based on love and understanding. It seems to be being implied that if you value relationship and your child's personality quirks and such, that isn't obedience based parenting.

That's like me, on hearing that my friend has gone low carb, assuming she is attacking me for not doing so.

 

Don't read in negative intent and stop telling people they value something they do not.

 

I know many families who value obedience or something more traditional for their family dynamic who have very cohesive, happy and peaceful homes. I know some who value obedience where there is no end of mess and drama and angst. Different things work for different kids.

 

I shouldn't need to spell out that sharing my experience is not a de facto attack on other experiences. If someone says "I think obedience is important" I am not telling them that if they get a good result from that they really don't value obedience and are just calling my values by another name.

 

A good rule in life: don't borrow trouble.

Edited August 31, 2016 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

I think what we are bristling at is the assumption that those who choose to use the word obedience, or rules, or whatever, don't have a mostly cohesive, mostly peaceful, respectful relationship based on love and understanding. It seems to be being implied that if you value relationship and your child's personality quirks and such, that isn't obedience based parenting.

 

And that you are assuming what our paradigm is based on, while saying others shouldn't assume about yours.

Again- why assume stuff I am not saying and actually do not believe.

 

One of my friends is a very strict, obedience oriented sort of parent. She's a great mom and her kids are happy. She definitely values their quirks and personalities and tries hard to be the best mom she can be.

 

We make different decisions but that doesn't mean we think the other is making crappy choices.

 

Inherent in "this is what we do" is NOT "people who don't do what I do are fools who will meet an awful fate and rue that they aren't like me."

Edited August 31, 2016 by LucyStoner

[ktgrok]

That's like me, on hearing that my friend has gone low carb, assuming she is attacking me for not doing so.

 

Don't read in negative intent and stop telling people they value something they do not.

 

I know many families who value obedience or something more traditional for their family dynamic who have very cohesive, happy and peaceful homes. I know some who value obedience where there is no end of mess and drama and angst. Different things work for different kids.

 

I shouldn't need to spell out that sharing my experience is not a de facto attack on other experiences. If someone says "I think obedience is important" I am not telling them that if they get a good result from that they really don't value obedience and are just calling my values by another name.

 

A good rule in life: don't borrow trouble.

 

Fair point. I think it was the phrasing i was seeing, along the lines of we don't need obedience because we have relationships of respect. As if those who do need/use obedience must not. Perhaps I misunderstood. Perhaps there was more two separate statements there, not cause and effect. 

 

But it did seem like obedience was being almost caricatured, especially early on in one of the threads. It just doesn't look like that. I think rules = obedience, and many who said they don't have an obedience mechanism did say they have rules. They just pictured obedience as this very "other" thing, beyond basic rules. 

[LucyStoner]

I'm a literal minded, direct sort of person. I don't generally rely on implicit meanings when explicit will do. If I thought any of the crap you pinned on my statements ktgrok, you can trust I would just say it. Straight out. As I have done when people post that their 5 year old is beyond hope because he dawdles or is not happy doing his chores. Or when a parent posts that their child has ASD but they refuse to treat it and they think their child is very bad for behaving like a 9 year old with ASD might be expected to do so. Speaking up if I think someone is being unreasonable or dogmatic is hardly a weakness of mine. :P

Edited August 31, 2016 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

I recall being at the park with the friend who I mentioned who is obedience oriented in many ways.

 

There was a part of the park that you couldn't see from the playground. I know my sons' dispositions and know that they will come back when they explore such a hidey hole. She explicitly told her kids not to go there without her. They didn't because she said so. Neither of us was wrong or doing things better than the other.

 

My oldest is older than hers (old enough to go to the park alone) and my youngest who would be too young to go there has a disposition such that he wouldn't without asking me or his brother to come with. Her oldest wanted to go see what was there. My son, who didn't need permission to go, waited until her oldest had asked if she would come too so he could go. He made a good choice- don't leave your friend and don't pressure your friend to break their own rules. Her son made a good choice too- he asked for something his mom would be more comfortable with. Neither of these methods or outcomes is more or less moral nor can I say that her kids would do well with my approach. I CAN however say that for MY SONS, expecting them to not go back there without me wouldn't work well. My older son especially would be like "why are you following me everywhere?!" That doesn't make her approach a bad one. But it would be an ineffective one for my sons, lol.

Edited August 31, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Guest]

Fair point. I think it was the phrasing i was seeing, along the lines of we don't need obedience because we have relationships of respect. As if those who do need/use obedience must not. Perhaps I misunderstood. Perhaps there was more two separate statements there, not cause and effect.

 

But it did seem like obedience was being almost caricatured, especially early on in one of the threads. It just doesn't look like that. I think rules = obedience, and many who said they don't have an obedience mechanism did say they have rules. They just pictured obedience as this very "other" thing, beyond basic rules.

Yes, this exactly.

[EmseB]

Between the two threads (which seem to be basically the same conversation at this point), a poster outright said that obedience had a negative connotation to her. Another poster said it would lead a kid to do drugs if their friends told them to. Other posters characterized it as blind or unthinking. So it's not like people are imagining the negative viewpoint or somehow projecting it when it isn't there. I can see it's not what you mean, Katie, however it's kind of the conversation you jumped into. I do know that it is easy to jump in without reading all the posts though.

[Guest]

I think maybe I get what you are saying. Although, going to church has never been a matter of obedience. It's something I like them to do, but the teen hasn't gone in forever, despite me desperately wishing he would. Because faith shouldn't be about obedience.

 

But taking the trash is about obedience, because he hates getting up early to take it out, but also forgets to take it out in the evening, even when reminded. He does it because it is his job. Now, I've never used the word obedience when speakng to my kids, that I know of. I just make rules, and try to get them to follow them. I've never, outside this thread, discussed obedience, lol. I just figure expecting kids to follow the rules IS expecting obedience.

First, I have to chuckle about the last line of your first paragraph, because my very devout Christian parents (the ones from whence I get the negative ideas about obedience) would say faith is *exactly* about obedience. Obedience to God. But, I'm sure that is not exactly what you meant; you were saying a person should not pretend to subscribe to a faith because Mom told them to.

 

Second, taking out the trash. This is where I think our households would look different because if taking out the trash was a job I gave to my 16yo son and he repeatedly fails to take it out, something is going to change WRT this being his job. I would not continue to hope he takes it out and then continue to be pissed off when he fails to do so. I cannot project exactly what I *would* do, but it would be some combination of figuring out why this job does not get done and having a different person take care of this job.

 

I know that of which I speak, because both DS and DH have some Executive Function challenges that are such that some plan-oriented things don't happen unless I stay on them or I just do it myself. In our family DH has long taken the trash and recycling bins out, however the recycling requires more planning because they arrive very early in the morning and the bin must go out the night before. I got sick and tired of the recycling being missed and overflowing all week long, or going straight in the trash because it didn't get picked up by recycling, I stopped relying on DH to do it. *I* roll the recycling out the night before almost all the time, except in some instances where DH is driving out already and I say, "Hey, take the Recycling out while you're at it please."

 

If this was DS' job but he repeatedly fails to do it, it's not going to remain his job. In EXACTLY the same way as it stopped being DH's job because his brain doesn't work that way so much. He's amazingly good at many things, but planning ahead is not one of them. :)

[ktgrok]

 

If this was DS' job but he repeatedly fails to do it, it's not going to remain his job. In EXACTLY the same way as it stopped being DH's job because his brain doesn't work that way so much. He's amazingly good at many things, but planning ahead is not one of them. :)

 

Agreed, that happened with feeding the dogs in the morning. But he does take the trash out. I wake him up, tell him it needs to go out, and he does it. But he's doing it because I told him to, not because he has some desire to get up and do it. 

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[Ausmumof3]

Not Sadie, obviously, but I think Sadie and I set things up similarly, so I'm answering too.

 

So, when my kids were really young, like 3,4,5 years, we didn't have running in the store. I set a procedure up that was how it always was. When they were around 2, 2.5, I would start teaching them how to act like humans outside of a stroller. In the grocery store, kids would need to walk with their hands touching the grocery cart, near the push-bar. If you've ever seen a preschool class go out walking all holding onto a ring on a tether, it is like this. We're walking through the grocery store, put your handon the cart here. Gentle reminders all along if they forget. Walking other places, they had to hold my hand. It was simply the procedure. Now - maybe I got lucky and they are all very naturally compliant (which I highly doubt because at least one, maybe two have ADD), but I still ask myself - then how is it it the Preschool class walks the kids outside in that busy shopping center? Surely not every child in the class is naturally compliant. They have taught those kids that walking in the shopping center means they hold onto their rings on a tether. It must work nearly always or why would they ever bother to walk outside?

 

Sometimes my kids are too loud, sure. In fact, the older I get, the less well I tolerate cacaphony. Sometimes I ask them to be quiet. Sometimes I seek a quieter area myslef. (After all, my DH is loud a LOT of the time and I know he is not always going to be quiet just because *I* want to experience quiet. So if he wants to practice drums and I can't deal, I need to find quiet myself most of the time, not insist it has to be quiet because that's what *I* wish.)

 

Walking on the wet floor? I don't think any kid has ever done this if I have said, "floor's wet! Go around the other way!" I don't even make a statement about slipping and falling; I just don't want footprints showing up in the gloss. :D

 

Re: telling kids to stop this or that. When my kids were younger, I made a herculean effort to frame things positively as much as I could. I had to train myself to do it because I did not grow up with this modeled. So instead of saying, "Stop fidgeting. Stop touching your sister. Stop poking the pencil into the chair cusion. Stop sitting on the dog." I would frame it positively in such as way as the outcome was the same. "Rest your hands on your lap like this. Put the pencil in the cup while we aren't using it. Sit on your cushion over here." I noticed this was what the most effective managers of young children do and it seems to work really well, so I did it too. And it seemed to work well.

Ever thought about writing a parenting book? This is the sort of advice that should be in it for sure!

[maize]

I suspect that whether or not kids follow urgent instructions in exceptional circumstances doesn't have much to do with whether our not their parents habitually require obedience from them.

[LucyStoner]

I can see it's not what you mean, Katie, however it's kind of the conversation you jumped into. I do know that it is easy to jump in without reading all the posts though.

For whatever little it is worth, I did read both threads before chiming in. I was responding to a person who referenced my post directly and another who quoted me twice. One was saying that what I was describing was the same thing as obedience. No it is not. I was only trying to clarify that, which you seem to understand.

 

Obedience can be nice (I want people to bring me cake when I ask for cake!) but in my life it is not inherently virtuous nor is it a priority for me wth my sons. I have found that for some that is difficult to believe.

 

I just reminded my sons that to clear the table (which here also means wash your place setting) and one to get his soccer stuff on and the other grab their spelling stuff. Both did both of those things. I suppose you could say they obeyed me. But here's the thing. I don't really care. If they leave their plates on the table, they aren't going to have a clean plate for dinner later. They would literally have to wash it before they could eat because they each only have one plate. They know this. I won't demand they do it. Don't get ready for soccer? Don't go to soccer but if you miss practices you are letting down your team/will miss out of something you chose to do. Don't get your spelling stuff? Well, you're the one who wants to go to the national bee and asked me to coach you. See how well you do in the regional bee if you let yourself down. I don't consider it immoral to not practice spelling or to forget to take out the trash. We frame most all of it as the impact your actions and inactions have on yourself and others you have commitments to. They don't owe me obedience. That model doesn't work for me or for them.

Edited September 1, 2016 by LucyStoner

[maize]

My perspective on this issues comes from having been a child who-- could not do obedience.

 

I wasn't an exceptionally wild or rebellious child, more a sort of oblivious one. I didn't much notice rules, "things I am supposed to do" wasn't an item of high priority in my brain. If I didn't want to do something I just sort of forgot about that thing. And then there was a more active element of resistance once an adult got upset at my failure to do/not do whatever and started trying to force me-- then I had a huge and urgent need to resist external pressure.

 

I see both characteristics in some of my children. I have other children who feel an anxious need to always meet expectations. Those children are certainly more likely to follow instructions promptly and without reminders, but I can't see that over all they are healthier or happier or better people. 

Edited September 1, 2016 by maize

[Crimson Wife]

 

Second, taking out the trash. This is where I think our households would look different because if taking out the trash was a job I gave to my 16yo son and he repeatedly fails to take it out, something is going to change WRT this being his job. I would not continue to hope he takes it out and then continue to be pissed off when he fails to do so. I cannot project exactly what I *would* do, but it would be some combination of figuring out why this job does not get done and having a different person take care of this job.

 

My take on this would be, by giving the trash job to someone else, you've just reinforced the negative behavior of failing to take it out. So the next time there's something that the child doesn't want to do, he/she will assume that failing to comply will just lead to removal of the demand. I might start tying some desired privilege (say screen time) to successfully completing the task. That way I'm reinforcing the desired behavior (getting the job done) rather than the undesired behavior (failing to do it).

[wendyroo]

We frame most all of it as the impact yor actions and inactions have on yourself and others you have commitments too. They don't owe me obedience. That model doesn't work for me or for them.

 

Just out of curiosity, was there a point at which they hadn't yet learned to rationally care about themselves or others?  None of my children have reached the magical "age of reason" that people speak of...ironically the 3 year old is the most rational and self-controlled of them all.

 

My 7 year old wiped his nose on the carpet earlier today because he couldn't be bothered to walk the 4 feet to the box of tissues.  When I calmly handed him a baby wipe and asked him to wipe up the mess he had just made he threw a 30 minute fit about how it was toooooo haaard and it waaaasn't faaair and, oh, yeah, it also wasn't him that did it...even though all five of us were right there and saw him do it.

 

All day is like that with them.  They simply don't or can't care about how their actions impact anyone, so they see no problem with hitting, destroying property, throwing huge tantrums that upset the household, wasting food, making messes that they refuse to clean up, shirking even small self-help tasks, etc.

 

At this point I can't see an end in sight and the whole thing seems very hopeless.

 

Wendy

[maize]

Just out of curiosity, was there a point at which they hadn't yet learned to rationally care about themselves or others?  None of my children have reached the magical "age of reason" that people speak of...ironically the 3 year old is the most rational and self-controlled of them all.

 

My 7 year old wiped his nose on the carpet earlier today because he couldn't be bothered to walk the 4 feet to the box of tissues.  When I calmly handed him a baby wipe and asked him to wipe up the mess he had just made he threw a 30 minute fit about how it was toooooo haaard and it waaaasn't faaair and, oh, yeah, it also wasn't him that did it...even though all five of us were right there and saw him do it.

 

All day is like that with them.  They simply don't or can't care about how their actions impact anyone, so they see no problem with hitting, destroying property, throwing huge tantrums that upset the household, wasting food, making messes that they refuse to clean up, shirking even small self-help tasks, etc.

 

At this point I can't see an end in sight and the whole thing seems very hopeless.

 

Wendy

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Some kids are really, really hard to be the parents of.

 

And the most perfect, insightful, consistent yet flexible, patient, etc. parent in the world wouldn't be able to change that.

[Crimson Wife]

That's an opinion, based on your worldview. You are definitely welcome to it, but you can't really say it's The Truth, it's just the truth in your home.

 

In my home, my children don't owe dh or I obedience. 

 

If a parent got accused of child neglect because they failed to make their children attend school/satisfy homeschooling requirements, bathe, see the doctor & dentist for checkups, etc. that person would find out that the state expects parents to exert authority over their minor children regardless of whether said parent thinks that the children owe them obedience.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Crimson Wife

[LucyStoner]

My older son recently was asked to seque from unloading to loading the dishwasher. This was a BFD for him. He was really struggling with it. I, incorrectly, guessed it was touching the dirty dishes that was wigging him out so I got him his own pair of rubber gloves. Problems continue. Frustration mounts.  His.  Mine. You name it. It turns out he is convinced he sucks at the job because our sucky dishwasher (renting blows at times) needs some careful rinsing and placement at times.  He is really worried about doing things "right" so when he loaded it and something didn't get clean he took it way too seriously. Remember, this is not an "easy" or even neurologically typical kid.  So I showed him how to hand wash some of the dishes and his job is to now hand wash the large stuff that doesn't go into the dishwasher and to watch me rinse and load the other stuff. I haven't observed a pattern of him trying to get out of jobs- heck who would trade loading a few dishes for scrubbing pots and pans and platters etc? We just rejiggered so that the assignments work for everyone. If I said fine, don't do it, you don't need to change at all, I could see that leading to issues. But finding a solution together that works for me and him (and frees up the unloading job for his little brother) doesn't seem to hurt anyone or any thing. Least of all his virtue.  The goal is that we all contribute to the home in age/developmentally appropriate ways AND big picture, both boys can leave home as young adults knowing how to keep their kitchens reasonably sanitary.  The goal is not really about him loading the dishwasher or complying with my request.  

Edited September 1, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Guest]

Agreed, that happened with feeding the dogs in the morning. But he does take the trash out. I wake him up, tell him it needs to go out, and he does it. But he's doing it because I told him to, not because he has some desire to get up and do it.

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What do you call it when DH takes out the trash because you asked him to?

[8circles]

I owe my kids quite a bit and it's on me (& DH) to figure out how to do it.

 

They owe me nothing.

[maize]

I owe my kids quite a bit and it's on me (& DH) to figure out how to do it.

 

They owe me nothing.

I dunno, I kinda think dd13 owes me a fair bit of babysitting in exchange for countless hours chauffeuring her to and from Dance.

 

She doesn't disagree ;)

[Guest]

My take on this would be, by giving the trash job to someone else, you've just reinforced the negative behavior of failing to take it out. So the next time there's something that the child doesn't want to do, he/she will assume that failing to comply will just lead to removal of the demand. I might start tying some desired privilege (say screen time) to successfully completing the task. That way I'm reinforcing the desired behavior (getting the job done) rather than the undesired behavior (failing to do it).

That is precisely the mindset I seek to avoid by not having this obedience priority. Yes, when they are little, concrete thinkers, there are a lot of things they just have to do. But not with a chore for a 16yo (neurotypical person able to understand). I don't just remove the obstacle, we are going to talk about it and figure out where the problem is, just like Lucy Stoner said about the dishwashing.

 

See, I don't think a 16yo needs to be trained like a puppy. He is almost a man. In some societies he would have begun his life's occupation and would probably have a permanent mate and possibly a kid or two. If there is some obstacle to completing an expectation, we have to work that out together. I simply believe that doing the job myself or having a different person do it is one option. It is one possibility and is a possibility I have explored in other relationships with people I care about. There are things I do in the household because DH is not good about getting it done and there are things he does that I am neglectful of. I don't say, "Sorry honey; I'm not rewarding you with dinner until you go drag the recycling bin out to the curb." I just accept that I care about this more than he does and am better at projecting time frames so I do it and get on with my life.

[ktgrok]

What do you call it when DH takes out the trash because you asked him to?

 

I don't know..he doesn't, lol. I suppose if he was doing it for me, rather than me doing it, if it was something I normally do, it would be doing me a favor. If my son does something for me I usually do, I also call it doing me a favor. If my husband has made doing the trash his job, and then does it, I don't call it anything. Because he's not doing it because I asked, he's doing it so the trash doesn't build up. My son doesn't care if the trash builds up. 

Edited September 1, 2016 by ktgrok

[ktgrok]

I do want to say, I do NOT think obedience, or rule following, or compliance, or whatever you call it, is a moral issue. It's a practicality issue, and often a safety issue, but not a moral issue, at all. 

[Guest]

I don't know..he doesn't, lol. I suppose if he was doing it for me, rather than me doing it, if it was something I normally do, it would be doing me a favor. If my son does something for me I usually do, I also call it doing me a favor. If my husband has made doing the trash his job, and then does it, I don't call it anything. Because he's not doing it because I asked, he's doing it so the trash doesn't build up. My son doesn't care if the trash builds up.

Well then we have arrived back at the beginning where some posters said their kids do these things just because it's their job or they were asked and some other posters (including you) wondered how that can be. :)

 

And what is interesting about the term "favor" is that I very often use exactly that term when I am asking a kid to do something I want them to do. I say, "could you do me a favor and start your laundry now because I'm going to need the washer later today." Or whatever. And they do it because I asked and, I don't know, I guess they like me and don't want me to be aggravated. It is *exactly* like when I ask DH to do something and he does it. He isn't obeying me. He's just being harmonious. Presumably he also likes me and doesn't want me to be unnecessarily irritated.

[ktgrok]

Well then we have arrived back at the beginning where some posters said their kids do these things just because it's their job or they were asked and some other posters (including you) wondered how that can be. :)

 

And what is interesting about the term "favor" is that I very often use exactly that term when I am asking a kid to do something I want them to do. I say, "could you do me a favor and start your laundry now because I'm going to need the washer later today." Or whatever. And they do it because I asked and, I don't know, I guess they like me and don't want me to be aggravated. It is *exactly* like when I ask DH to do something and he does it. He isn't obeying me. He's just being harmonious. Presumably he also likes me and doesn't want me to be unnecessarily irritated.

 

No, I get that they do it because it is their job. I'm just calling it obedience (in this thread...I never really use the term in real life). I guess if they are, say, taking out the trash because to not do it makes it back up and they don't want that to happen, I wouldn't call that obedience. If they are doing it because it is their chore, and they know they are supposed to do it, so they do it, I'd say that is obedience. 

 

In other words, if there are rules, and the kids are supposed to follow them, I'd say that is obedience. Again, only in this thread, lol, as I seriously never use or really think about that term in real life. The only punishment my littles ever get is to sit on their bed and calm down (they can play with stuffed toys, look at a book, whatever) if they get too hyped up and are just acting crazy and not listening to me. (unless we can go outside, in which case we do that and let them run around the yard). Seriously, that's the only punishment I can think of I've given them. I have randomly threatened to tie them up and sell them to gypsies, but it's pretty clear I don't mean that :)

 

The teen has had more, although I think of them as consequences in my head, because with an aspie he just doesn't have the desire to people please, and thinks most of my rules are stupid. He needs much more external guidance than is typical at his age. And still many would say I let him walk all over me. He didn't finish three of his classes last year, his room looks like a bomb went off, etc. But I do have a few things I need him to do, that are non negotiable, like bring dirty dishes out of his room, do his laundry when it is stinking up the house, etc. Because I live here too and his room stinking up my house is not okay. So sometimes he loses internet privileges until those things are done. So yes, power struggle there. 

 

But most of the time, with the neurotypical kids, I ask them to do stuff and they do it. No power struggle or punishment. 

[Scarlett]

Anybody ever read The Explosive Child?

 

Excellent book, and discusses the difference between traditional "Plan A" parenting, and what some of us are trying to explain ("Plan B and Plan C" parenting).

 

Plan A parents think, ok, my kid isn't performing. I will increase the pressure until he does.

 

Plan B thinks, ok, what's going on, because this kid isn't out to have bad character. Let's ask him and see if there's a constructive way of fixing this problem with a mutually agreeable solution. The author does a fantastic job of explaining how a parent can actually have much higher standards with Plan B than with Plan A.

 

Plan C says, not today. This kid isn't ready for this. It is sort of like picking your battles, but it isn't because it was never a battle.

 

It looks a little more like leadership, and a lot less like traditional parenting.

 

Problem: My kid isn't taking out the trash every morning. Well, there's lot of stuff that I don't do every morning. I do it when it needs done, though. A 16 year old doesn't need to take out the trash, and it is a pretty random thing to ask him to. My 9 year old is sort of the resident "trash man", but every single time I ask him. It's something that I need, not something that he needs. So, not ever having assigned jobs to anyone, it wouldn't be an issue just to stop asking him. If I really feel he has trouble remembering important things, I don't think that punishing him to motivate him to remember is really very helpful. I mean, he's 16. Upping the ante is probably just going to tick him off. It's probably better to have a discussion with my concerns, ask him if he's noticed a problem, maybe suggest a few things I've tried that help me keep things in mind that need to happen. They are separate issues, though.

Tonight I asked my 16 year old to take out the trash. I even reminded him it is trash day in the morning. He stopped on his way out the door and asked, 'to the curb right?' Yes, because it is Wednesday and trash runs on Thursday at 5 a.m. Like it has for all 4 years we have lived here.

 

I didn't say that. I just said, yes son, it is Wednesday. After he went outside Dh and I looked at each other and I said,'hey at last he asked. I think that is progress.' Dh agreed.

 

Seriously he just can't remember.

[Guest]

Tonight I asked my 16 year old to take out the trash. I even reminded him it is trash day in the morning. He stopped on his way out the door and asked, 'to the curb right?' Yes, because it is Wednesday and trash runs on Thursday at 5 a.m. Like it has for all 4 years we have lived here.

 

I didn't say that. I just said, yes son, it is Wednesday. After he went outside Dh and I looked at each other and I said,'hey at last he asked. I think that is progress.' Dh agreed.

 

Seriously he just can't remember.

Yeah, well that is a thing.

 

Kinda like the nine billion times I have answered DH's question, "So...what time do we need to leave for church?" Same time as the past 142 Sundays. (Only now, my church just changed the service times around! Man, two more years of telling him the new time..."

[8circles]

Bwhahahaha!  I ask my dh that every Sunday, too!  I just can't remember!  He, like you with your dh, is very patient with me. 

 

HAAAAAAAAA!  Me too!!! I ask *every* Sunday - what time do we need to leave?  Yes, DH is very patient although he does chuckle.

[Scarlett]

I imagine that when he's out on his own, it'll probably matter, and he'll probably remember. But, would you believe I don't even know when trash day is here? Dh always does it on his way to work. If he weren't here for some reason, it'd take until the trash can out there was over-flowing, but then I'd finally remember I wanted to look that up. I'm realizing I don't even know who our provider is!

 

I am a fairly productive member of society, though.

I just have no words. How do you not know when trash day is? Or who picks it up? Who pays your bills?

 

This reminds me of the woman I worked for whose Dh dropped dead at age 37. She had no idea where they banked or if her husband had life insurance.

[Scarlett]

Yeah, well that is a thing.

 

Kinda like the nine billion times I have answered DH's question, "So...what time do we need to leave for church?" Same time as the past 142 Sundays. (Only now, my church just changed the service times around! Man, two more years of telling him the new time..."

Well since he can't remember it won't really matter. Lol

[Scarlett]

I am laughing so hard I can hardly breathe. Oh!

 

I'm totally up on the bank and the life insurance, lol. The trash just isn't my problem. I keep track of lots of things that are my problem, but...that one just isn't. I'd figure it out if I needed to.

Ok good. I fully acknowledge one doesn't need to know when trash day is or who the provider is.....heck my son doesn't. I just don't operate that way. I have to know.

[LucyStoner]

Just out of curiosity, was there a point at which they hadn't yet learned to rationally care about themselves or others? None of my children have reached the magical "age of reason" that people speak of...ironically the 3 year old is the most rational and self-controlled of them all.

 

Oh course. My sons weren't manners and responsibility prodigies as toddlers. I didn't try to reason with my toddlers or preschoolers.

 

My sons are 13 and pushing 8. How things work now vs. how they worked when they were 6 and 1 are naturally very different things. I would prolly think someone expecting what I do now to work with a two year old was a lunatic.

 

My boys are certainly aren't fully rational or perfect now. They are kids. We do see though that natural consequences have worked very well, and that all that modeling and narrating our reasons for this or that (ie, when I would do the dishes I would explain, to no one in particular, why it's important to do the dishes) has sunk in more than not. The other thing that has helped is just them seeing us doing what we want them to do. Kids, NT or not, learn a lot from how the people around them behave. Things they see now are habits they will fall back on later, even if one of them (cough, teenager, cough) thinks now that wearing the same pants 24/7 for a week is totally ok. Me, telling him that "the pro-social" thing to do is to wear clean clothes he didn't sleep in >>>>> :rolleyes: :confused: :ack2: :banghead:

 

ETA- As for the explosive behaviors your post describes, we have navigated some exceptionally challenging behaviors. Definitely verbal and physical anger directed at each other and others (mostly mom since I'm the primary caregiver) for starters. It all was a full time job and I am the first person to admit that what works for my sons (whose rages and meltdowns connected to ASD) do not work for all. There's no magic bullet (nor do all explosive kids need to be dx with anything at all). In sorta-short, responding to those needs totally changed our lives- it was a big part of why we started homeschooling, which is why I don't work FT at this juncture. Me not working FT cost us >half our income which meant a move and downsizing for now of our standard of living. We did a lot of therapy (think multiple appointments per week per child) and continue with some though we do less and we don't have the same more urgent issues now that we did. We do meditation and yoga at home nearly everyday, home is a sensory friendly environment, still do therapy in clinical settings 2-4x a month and have ABA for them at home. We have done workbooks and skill building and on and on. This is why I feel entitled to laugh when people say that my kids respond well to our approach because they are easy or laid back or just naturally pliable. Like I said, I can't say what works for others in our shoes or similar shoes but no one can think we had a short easy row to hoe either. We've been overwhelmed, exhausted and at the end of our rope at times and have no doubt that can happen again. But in those times, we realized that certain models fed the explosive behavior (more of an issue for the oldest one than the younger) more and made things worse. So if nothing else, I come by my opinions on how we need to parent them honestly. Lately people have been marvelling over the huge leaps they have made in maturity and social skills. This summer my older son did a 5 week intensive class at local college for 8th-11th graders. He took the bus to and from, he participated in the class discussions everyday, and never needed to call me to come and get him. All of that would have been a big enough success for him but he also nearly entirely managed his own assignment deadlines, learned to order in a cafeteria without panicking AND prepared and delivered a presentation on a topic of his selection, confidently and calmly taking questions afterwards. 4 years ago, I was the mom who couldn't drop my son off anywhere because I would inevitably recieve a call that he was either missing, belligerent or in some way causing a huge problem. 2 years ago presentations were a non-starter in every possible way. The resulting freak outs were epic. One last proviso- I am absolutely not saying that all kids who tantrum need the sort of interventions my sons did or that all the stuff we have done is an effective way to help all kids or all kids with any similar issues. Nor is all the stuff we have pursued therapeutically incompatible with different values and parenting styles than we have. I don't have the one right way. I don't think it exists. I do know what is the effective way for my particular personality with my particular kids in this particular stage and know, accept and fully grasp that I have made mistakes and will make many more. One thing that helped us more than many other things with behavior and reducing the over the top tantrums that leave any sane person feeling totally hopeless was the Nurture My Heart material by C. Stafford.

Edited September 1, 2016 by LucyStoner

[ktgrok]

I actually did read that book, and used it a lot. I absolutely look for constructive ways of fixing the issue, deciding if it is more than they can handle (like my recent example of walking in the store vs running) etc. But I'm sorry, it isn't that my nearly adult young man isn't capable of taking out the trash. He just doesn't want to. And it isn't every morning, it's twice a week. He can sleep in every other day. He can go back to sleep after taking it out (and by early, I mean it has to be out before 9am, not 6am). He can take it out the night before. He could offer to trade for another chore instead. We've brainstormed the options. I remind him the night before, saying "If you don't want to have to do it in the morning, remember to take the trash out tonight."  I suppose I could just have him not do it, but then, at what point should a nearly adult member of the family be doing some kind of chores to help out? He's taller, and therefore it is easier to get the trash bags into the big tall trash can the city assigns us than for me to do it. He's also stronger. It's one of his three jobs. (trash twice a week, litter box every few days, mow the lawn as needed). 

 

With a child yes, there are issues of is this too much to ask, is there a real reason they are fighting it, etc. And yet, with someone with the body of an adult, and nearly the maturity (he will be legally adult in less than a year) at some point there is just one person taking advantage of another's good will. At that point it's less about obedience anyway, and more about not being a schmuck. (and for there record, he DOES take the trash out...he just doesn't like it, so I used it as an example, because he doesn't do it because he wants to help out, he does it because it is a chore assigned to him.)

 

But for the little kids? Absolutely we have plan A, B, C, we re-evaluate, we back off if an approach isn't working, etc. Maybe i never should have gotten into this conversation, as I think what I was calling obedience maybe isn't what others are thinking of. Like I said, I never even use the word, I just figured if you have rules you want kids to follow, that is obedience. Do I increase pressure? I guess sometimes. If they are yelling and being crazy in the car (a pet peeve) I will sometimes escalate my voice. And I did threaten to put them in the trunk with tape on their mouths...except I own no duct tape and I drive a van that doesn't have a trunk, so none of us took that seriously. I may say, if you keep roughhousing I'm going to put you to bed early....if they are wound up and overtired. But I don't spank, we don't really use time out or anything. We just figure it out. 

[Bluegoat]

I'm not sure why it is so important for some to seemingly try and "prove" to people that they actually do value something that they say they don't. Why not take them at their word?

 

When I say my sons withered under an obedience centered paradigm I am saying just that. Nothing more. Nothing less. I assure you that it's not just me using another name for the same thing. Trying to prove to people that they don't actually know what they are talking about or doing in their own household is a fairly tiresome and rude occupation. People can and do structure their home lives without valuing obedience as a virtue. Nor is the end result necessarily rude, nasty or unruly children.

 

Parenting has not come easily to me (not that it does to most anyone) and I have worked very hard building a mostly cohesive, mostly peaceful relationship with two special needs kids who struggle mightily with many social norms. When I speak from my own experience, for myself and certainly not critical of another, it would be swell if people just believed that I might just know better than internet people what paradigm is chugging along in my home. I am not just describing the same thing and I truly do reject the idea that as a parent I have to control or extract obedience or compliance from my sons.

 

Because definition of terms and using them the same way is pretty basic to discussing anything. 

[ktgrok]

Yeah, well that is a thing.

 

Kinda like the nine billion times I have answered DH's question, "So...what time do we need to leave for church?" Same time as the past 142 Sundays. (Only now, my church just changed the service times around! Man, two more years of telling him the new time..."

 

What is it with men and church times?

[Bluegoat]

Anybody ever read The Explosive Child? 

 

Excellent book, and discusses the difference between traditional "Plan A" parenting, and what some of us are trying to explain ("Plan B and Plan C" parenting).

 

Plan A parents think, ok, my kid isn't performing.  I will increase the pressure until he does.

 

Plan B thinks, ok, what's going on, because this kid isn't out to have bad character.  Let's ask him and see if there's a constructive way of fixing this problem with a mutually agreeable solution.  The author does a fantastic job of explaining how a parent can actually have much higher standards with Plan B than with Plan A.  

 

Plan C says, not today.  This kid isn't ready for this.  It is sort of like picking your battles, but it isn't because it was never a battle.

 

It looks a little more like leadership, and a lot less like traditional parenting.

 

Problem: My kid isn't taking out the trash every morning.  Well, there's lot of stuff that I don't do every morning.  I do it when it needs done, though.  A 16 year old doesn't need to take out the trash, and it is a pretty random thing to ask him to.  My 9 year old is sort of the resident "trash man", but every single time I ask him.  It's something that I need, not something that he needs.  So, not ever having assigned jobs to anyone, it wouldn't be an issue just to stop asking him.  If I really feel he has trouble remembering important things, I don't think that punishing him to motivate him to remember is really very helpful.  I mean, he's 16.  Upping the ante is probably just going to tick him off.  It's probably better to have a discussion with my concerns, ask him if he's noticed a problem, maybe suggest a few things I've tried that help me keep things in mind that need to happen.   They are separate issues, though.

 

Isn't there a pretty significant assumption here about motivation?

 

Yes, many kids will not do what you'd like for reasons of not being ready, or some other understandable reason, that you can address.

 

Sometimes though people - kids and adults - don't do things for reasons that are not quite like that.  One is that they just don't want to. 

 

I don't see how taking out the trash is a random thing to ask a 16 year old - they make trash, they can do the job, they see why trash has to go out.  If they can't remember, by all means help find a way, but it is part of the work of the household, not just of the parent - especially teens but older kids as well are not well-served by the idea that their parents are there as servants to them - they might think they like it but ultimately I think it is profoundly disempowering. 

 

Someone up-thread a bit pointed out that in a lot of cultures a 16 year old would be married with adult responsibilities, and I agree.  The work of life is part of that, and if they can't self-motivate enough to do it, then they are seriously in need of learning how.  That is part of what it means, as an adult, to be able to be obedient - to see that our role (doing chores, paying taxes, doing a stupid report for work) is one we need to fulfill even when it is unappealing or seems stupid, and having the self-discipline to actually do it - ultimately we become obedient to ourselves, or to necessity. 

 

None of which is to say that there is some need to assign jobs specifically, or "up the ante", or that you can't help problem solve or negotiate a solution that works better for everyone.  But kids can have reasons besides "not developmentally ready" for not living up to their responsibilities just as adults can.

[8circles]

The question was "I'm not sure why it is so important for some to seemingly try and "prove" to people that they actually do value something that they say they don't. Why not take them at their word?"

 

Because definition of terms and using them the same way is pretty basic to discussing anything.

???? I can't believe you've read this whole thread and you're mplying that people are just not understanding the definitions. Still. Because apparently there hang been enough explanation yet about what "obedience" means.

[Bluegoat]

The question was "I'm not sure why it is so important for some to seemingly try and "prove" to people that they actually do value something that they say they don't. Why not take them at their word?"

 

 

???? I can't believe you've read this whole thread and you're mplying that people are just not understanding the definitions. Still. Because apparently there hang been enough explanation yet about what "obedience" means.

 

If someone is obviously using a different definition, then they aren't talking about the same thing. 

 

Lots of people have said they don't like obedience because it is "blind" or because they often or even always use other ways of shaping behavior like modeling, or they think what is often labeled as disobedience can be about not being developmentally ready,  that they only enforce rules with punishment in the most extreme circumstances, that their expectations of their teens look more like a relationship with another adult. 

 

None of those things really seem to be any different than what the people who do think obedience is involved in those relationships thinks, so they don't seem to be the crux of the issue.

 

A few people have actually said right out that they don't like the idea of obedience because it means things like not respecting kids as people, and they value a more cooperative and harmonious relationship.  Which really doesn't seem to relate to what people who are ok or positive to the idea are saying.

 

So - yeah, somehow I don't think people are working with the same ideas.

[Joules]

It's really interesting to read everyone's take on this.  We do live our lives very differently here, for better or worse.  Disobedience isn't really a concept any more than obedience.  I realized from something Katie said that we don't even really have "rules."  There's a big Norman Rockwell of the Golden Rule at the front door, but that's about it.  

 

It's pretty much live and let live.  Most everything here gets done because someone does it.  If something doesn't get done because no one cared enough to do it, maybe it needs to be re-evaluated.  It's why we don't have houseplants anymore.  Dh and I lived that way before and after some early drama of me trying to be a "proper" parent with a strong-willed, explosive child, we just went back to it.  Ds helps lots either when I ask or when he sees something that needs to be done, just like dh (but more often.)  Now that he's at college, there are all kinds of things I didn't even realize that he was doing that I'm taking over.

 

The trash to the street is a bugaboo for all of us.  We all try because it just seems like it is impossible for any one of us to remember consistently, even with the natural consequence of stinky cans or running out in pajamas when we hear the truck.  I can't imagine why I would expect a 16yo to be any better at it than I am.  From reading this thread, I can see that I'm not the only one.

[Joules]

I don't do things I don't want to do, for the most part.  There are privileges and responsibilities and consequences that come with being an adult.  I should take out my trash, but I don't have to.  If I don't, it'll be a huge disgusting mess.  I'll probably eventually be motivated to clean it up, and then I'll probably not do that again, because, well, yuck!

 

Having regular family chores has nothing to do with being a responsible adult, though.  I just don't see the correlation at all.  

 

My kids don't think that I am a servant to them, and, in fact, do a lot of work in our household.  Everyone has to pitch in because there are 8 of us.  The difference is that I recognize that this is my house, and my priorities.  So, each and every time I need something done, I ask.  And I will continue to do so when my kid is married and home to visit for a holiday.  

 

Just because it is natural to you to assume that trash taking out on schedule is a very obvious, must be done thing, it doesn't follow that everyone does.  Our trash needs to go out when it's full, and the person who notices it is full, usually takes it out, or asks someone who isn't busy in the moment to do it.

 

There's more than one way to teach kids to be responsible workers, and it doesn't have to involve splitting up the household chores.  

 

My kids have never had regular chores, but are very hard workers.  My 9 yo carried boxes 8 hours, without complaint, helping a neighbor move.  He was really a help, and not just in the way thinking he was helping.  My 11 yo keeps the kitchen cleaned up mostly on her own, which is no small thing for a family of 8.  When we are traveling or camping or something, the kids almost completely pack everything on their own, neatly.  

 

Things I want done in a certain way or at a certain time, though?  Those are my preferences, and I do it myself.  I might say, "Dd, I am really tired, but we have to leave for x at y time.  Would you mind getting up and making the brownies I said I'd bring?"  She probably will say yes, and, if she does, she'll follow through.  

 

I understand this is so foreign to so many people.  I am surrounded by people who are constantly asking me how we manage a big family, but if it's done with the model of rules and schedules and etc, I think it would be very tiring and life sucking.  I just don't live under that at all.  

 

 

You just said what I was trying to, but so much better.  I've wondered if it just works for me because our family is small, but it sounds like it works for your large one, too.

[ktgrok]

Again, I don't expect him to remember. I remind him the night before, and then I wake him up the morning of, as late as possible (9am) to do it. Not remembering isn't disobedience. I remind him. I'm saying that when he does it (which he does) it is because I said to, not because of  some internal drive to do it. Which I would label as obedience, if I were thinking about it, which I normally don't. Because he's doing it to satisfy an outside authority (me) not because he gives a darn about the trash. Same with the lawn. He would be fine with it being overgrown and horrid. He mows it because we ask him to, not because he cares if the lawn is mowed or not. To be clear, we are NOT struggling with having him do these things. He does them as asked. (with some grumbling...which is fine.)

 

Also, I do extend grace. If I know he's extra tired, sometimes I take out the trash rather than wake him. Or if I hear the truck coming extra early. Or if there is only a few bags and it can wait until the next time. It's not like I'm a tyrant. He'd rather do trash twice a week than dishes every day or whatever. So that's his job. As I said above, he can trade for another job if he would rather.

 

Again, saying it is about obedience doesn't make it inherently adversarial and ugly. He's never been punished for forgetting to take out the trash because honestly, if I forgot to remind him I can't blame him for forgetting to do it. If he was supposed to do it, didn't ask for a different chore instead, and just refused, even after being reminded, the consequence is that mom is really unhappy with him. But there's no "I'll show him who's boss" or whatever. Obedience doesn't have to mean that kind of interaction. 

[Pam in CT]

re definitions and discussion

Because definition of terms and using them the same way is pretty basic to discussing anything. 

 

Except different definitions and usage in terms happen all the time, including on this very thread... as well as another in which you yourself have made intriguing and interesting insights into different slants on a whole slew of terms, sharia and canon law and religion and evidence and state and secular and spiritualism and coercion and and compliance and Thomism and mysticism and psychology...

 

Very often, like here, the nature of the discussion *is* turning over and plumbing the differences between the different meanings that different people find in / bring to the words...  discussions which over the years I have often rather enjoyed *with you.*

[LucyStoner]

Because definition of terms and using them the same way is pretty basic to discussing anything.

Le sigh.

 

You don't have any basis whatsoever for repeatedly claiming that I or anyone else are just calling the rose by any other name.

 

I find your remarks and thinly veiled insistence you must know other people's lives better than themselves to be downright rude. Again, I am not telling anyone who has success with a method other than mine that their method is just mine by a different name.

 

Why is it so hard to accept that obedience is not a universally held value among other wise decent parents? Why can't you accept that there are people who are in fact just doing it differently?

Edited September 1, 2016 by LucyStoner