Civil war in Europe?

[38carrots]

DH just told me that there's a civil war in Europe. Like *now*. Already happening. Since I absolutely can't and won't talk politics with DH I told him that I wouldn't be talking about it.

 

I can talk / listen to you, ladies, about politics. Please tell me what's happening in Europe?

[Heatherwith4]

Ummmmm, not that I'm aware of.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I don't know of one.

[*Jessica*]

Ukraine?

Edited August 15, 2016 by *Jessica*

[hedwigtheowl]

I'm from Europe, now living in the US. I would not say there is a civil war in the technical sense (armed warfare by one group of citizens against another) but I do think there are tensions which are escalating and also increased fragmentation. Europe as I knew it, when you could stroll safely in London and Paris, no longer exists. 

 

The UK has voted in Brexit to leave the European Union. The Far Right in France is gaining ground. Women in Germany and Sweden are marching in support of their right to walk in public in freedom without suffering aggressive sexual harassment.

 

The refugee situation is worsening. The desire to help displaced and suffering refugees is coupled with fear at how public services can cope with an influx of needy people and the changes in culture brought about by those from a different culture and religion. 

 

And hundreds of ISIS terrorist sleeper cells are estimated to exist across the continent.

[zoobie]

Some nutter on FB was going on about a secret Muslim invasion of Europe designed to cause a civil war. The mainstream media isn't reporting any of it because of our president (also a secret Muslim, LOLZ).

[38carrots]

Some nutter on FB was going on about a secret Muslim invasion of Europe designed to cause a civil war. The mainstream media isn't reporting any of it because of our president (also a secret Muslim, LOLZ).

 

This is probably what DH is talking about. He has no FB, so he is not that nutter.

[8circles]

This is probably what DH is talking about. He has no FB, so he is not that nutter.

 

Ummm, that's pretty nutter even without the FB.

[zoobie]

This is probably what DH is talking about. He has no FB, so he is not that nutter.

If he's an attorney in GA who also believes the President's secret boyfriend is always on Air Force One and that's why Mr and Mrs don't walk off the plane together, he might have a secret FB account. ;)

[madteaparty]

i just came back and missed all the warfare. I was caught in the middle of some delicious Baiser Torte though...

 

[Anacharsis]

Civil war, civil unrest with violence, and domestic terrorism all sort of jumble together depending on whom you are asking, which can make it hard to suss out what's going on.

 

​​As Jessica mentioned, there's an active conflict in Ukraine -- two groups are trying to split off, forming the Luhansk People's Republic and Donetsk People's Republic. I don't know enough about the conflict to know if it is a genuine civil war or some sort of proxy battle, though -- it looks like the separatist groups have Russian support, but whether they are the instigators I don't know. I'm guessing that's what he's referring to.

​

Western Europe has a bunch of separatist movements, but I don't think they have reached the point of violence.

​

 

Edited August 15, 2016 by Anacharsis

[gardenmom5]

DH just told me that there's a civil war in Europe. Like *now*. Already happening. Since I absolutely can't and won't talk politics with DH I told him that I wouldn't be talking about it.

 

I can talk / listen to you, ladies, about politics. Please tell me what's happening in Europe?

 

how does he define civil war? the UK just voted to leave the EU, (re: brexit) several other countries have expressed interest. but what is going on is political with demonstrations and calls for policy changes.  that isn't civil war.

[Amira]

Europe is a large area with many countries. A continent can't have a civil war. ETA except Australia ;)

 

Europe as a whole is dealing with some challenges right now. Ukraine is a major concern. But calling it civil war is hyperbolic in addition to a misunderstanding of the term.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Amira

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Civil war, civil unrest with violence, and domestic terrorism all sort of jumble together depending on whom you are asking, which can make it hard to suss out what's going on.

 

It really isn't that hard to suss out. Civil wars pretty much stick out like a sore thumb.

[Anacharsis]

​​

It really isn't that hard to suss out. Civil wars pretty much stick out like a sore thumb.

​

​I suppose I should amend that to say that it isn't clear to me. :)

 

I think of a group like the Kosovo Liberation Army. Once having 45,000 members and responsible for a portion of the former Yugoslavia now recognized as the country of Kosovo by the U.S. -- but that's certainly not the way Yugoslavia saw it; the KLA was seen as a terrorist group, and accused of drug trafficking, kidnapping, using children to commit violence, and other crimes.

​

We also have a group like Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia. Once having 60,000 members and responsible for a portion of Colombia almost a third of the country's size before U.S. intervention --  but that's certainly not the way Colombia saw it; FARC was seen as a terrorist group, and accused of drug trafficking, kidnapping, using children to commit violence, and other crimes.

 

Despite engaging in similar tactics, one group was seen as participating in civil war, while the other was not. Maybe it's just my lack of deep familiarity with the two groups, but the sore thumb that makes one group's actions civil war and the other group's actions not isn't so obvious to me; any advice?

Edited August 15, 2016 by Anacharsis

[Laura Corin]

Honestly, this bit of Europe is a lot more peaceful than it was when I was growing up.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Northern_Ireland_Troubles_and_peace_process

[Melissa in Australia]

Europe is a large area with many countries. A continent can't have a civil war.

 

Europe as a whole is dealing with some challenges right now. Ukraine is a major concern. But calling it civil war is hyperbolic in addition to a misunderstanding of the term.

I agree

 

Exactly what I was about to post.

[Amira]

I'm actually really bothered when people (not referring to anyone here, necessarily, but to other sources) use military terms to refer to the difficulties the refugee crisis is causing in Europe. It's a humanitarian crisis, not a military crisis.

 

The same goes for people trying to portray immigration to Europe as the precursor to armed conflict in Europe. Europe is changing, and I think for the better, because of immigration, but that change doesn't come without challenges. Those challenges definitely aren't anything even remotely related to civil war.

 

I wouldn't call the conflict in the Crimea a civil war since it appears to have been orchestrated by a foreign government and is mostly limited to the area that was invaded. It could lead to one though, although I don't think it will and I very much hope it doesn't.

[madteaparty]

I'm actually really bothered when people (not referring to anyone here, necessarily, but to other sources) use military terms to refer to the difficulties the refugee crisis is causing in Europe. It's a humanitarian crisis, not a military crisis.

 

The same goes for people trying to portray immigration to Europe as the precursor to armed conflict in Europe. Europe is changing, and I think for the better, because of immigration, but that change doesn't come without challenges. Those challenges definitely aren't anything even remotely related to civil war.

 

I wouldn't call the conflict in the Crimea a civil war since it appears to have been orchestrated by a foreign government and is mostly limited to the area that was invaded. It could lead to one though, although I don't think it will and I very much hope it doesn't.

The refugee crisis is a crisis only for the refugees. They arbitrarily opened the borders, and then just as arbitrarily closed them and trapped thousands of people. Now they're out of sight out of mind in military camps in Greece, so carry on old Europe, nothing to see here.

[hedwigtheowl]

The refugee crisis is a crisis only for the refugees. They arbitrarily opened the borders, and then just as arbitrarily closed them and trapped thousands of people. Now they're out of sight out of mind in military camps in Greece, so carry on old Europe, nothing to see here.

 

That is simply not true. Sweden is struggling to assimilate refugees and so is Germany, France and the UK. Cities like Cologne have seen marches in support of women's rights. Public services, particularly hospitals, are at breaking point in some areas in the UK and the schools there don't have the resources to teach children who do not speak English. In Belgium and France the police have struggled with neighborhoods where it is extremely hard for them to enter safely.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with you that people should not be held in camps but to say that the rest of the population of Europe has been unaffected is to misunderstand the scale of the problem.

[madteaparty]

That is simply not true. Sweden is struggling to assimilate refugees and so is Germany, France and the UK. Cities like Cologne have seen marches in support of women's rights. Public services, particularly hospitals, are at breaking point in some areas in the UK and the schools there don't have the resources to teach children who do not speak English. In Belgium and France the police have struggled with neighborhoods where it is extremely hard for them to enter safely.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with you that people should not be held in camps but to say that the rest of the population of Europe has been unaffected is to misunderstand the scale of the problem.

I guess we will have to disagree. To me, the above is a political statement and not a statement of facts as I have personally witnessed them on the ground. But anyway everyone is entitled to their version of reality and yours is just as valid as mine.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

​

​I suppose I should amend that to say that it isn't clear to me. :)

 

I think of a group like the Kosovo Liberation Army. Once having 45,000 members and responsible for a portion of the former Yugoslavia now recognized as the country of Kosovo by the U.S. -- but that's certainly not the way Yugoslavia saw it; the KLA was seen as a terrorist group, and accused of drug trafficking, kidnapping, using children to commit violence, and other crimes.

​

We also have a group like Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia. Once having 60,000 members and responsible for a portion of Colombia almost a third of the country's size before U.S. intervention -- but that's certainly not the way Colombia saw it; FARC was seen as a terrorist group, and accused of drug trafficking, kidnapping, using children to commit violence, and other crimes.

 

Despite engaging in similar tactics, one group was seen as participating in civil war, while the other was not. Maybe it's just my lack of deep familiarity with the two groups, but the sore thumb that makes one group's actions civil war and the other group's actions not isn't so obvious to me; any advice?

Not sure how any of your examples demonstrate how we could miss a "civil war" raging across Europe.

[Anacharsis]

Not sure how any of your examples demonstrate how we could miss a "civil war" raging across Europe.

 

​Ah, maybe I misunderstood -- I thought the post was about a civil war in Europe, not across it. Meaning that they had heard one of Europe's many countries was having a civil war, and they were trying to find out where it was.

[Lady Florida.]

Considering that Europe isn't a country that doesn't make any sense. Civil war in {insert name of European country} is something that could be fact checked. But general Europe? Um, what?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Considering that Europe isn't a country that doesn't make any sense. Civil war in {insert name of European country} is something that could be fact checked. But general Europe? Um, what?

 

Based on recent events there have been some in the tinfoil hat community insisting that there is an impending implosion of the EU/war breaking out between EU members.

[Melissa in Australia]

Based on recent events there have been some in the tinfoil hat community insisting that there is an impending implosion of the EU/war breaking out between EU members.

 

But that still wouldn't be a civil war. That would be war between different countries.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

But that still wouldn't be a civil war. That would be war between different countries.

 

The nutters I know usually don't usually get details correct.

 

[LucyStoner]

Sometimes I just don't know what to say. I've found that no good comes in arguing with the crazy.