Here's what I need for pre-algebra... help me find it please!!

[Heather in VA]

My daughter has ADD and some math issues. She's getting there with the math but finding a text that doesn't overwhelm has been a challenge. We are going to use Fresh Approach Algebra when we get there because it's the perfect combination of straightforward explanations using real world ideas (not just memorize steps) and uncluttered text and non-busy layout. But they don't have pre-algebra. She definitely still needs pre-algebra.

 

I have a copy of AOPS Pre-algebra and she really likes the explanations and layout. However, there is no way we can use it because the actual problems you do once you cover the concepts are well beyond what she'll be capable of without more stress than I want her to deal with. 

 

I also have a copy of Lial's Basic College Math. The level of problems is more in line, even a bit easy, with what she can handle but the layout and busyness of the page made her shake. The explanations are not nearly as good at AOPS either. They tell her what to do but it doesn't help her understand anything. 

 

So what I need is a book that has taken AOPS explanations and clean layout and put them in a blender with a more reasonable complexity of problems and hit 'blend'. 

 

Thoughts? Oh and she does not learn well from video lessons. I'll be teaching her. I can handle that so that's not an issue but a program like MUS is out because she despises the videos and there isn't really much of a text to go with it. 

[Farrar]

Have you looked at Dolciani? The vintage copies are usually easy to find cheap.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I really like the Fresh Approach books to - we have the Geometry text.  They seem like they'd work well for the same kind of kid MM works for. MM 7 is Pre Algebra, have you taken a look at that?  What has she used and liked in the past?

[HomeAgain]

To be fair, the videos in MUS are meant for the parent to watch while reading along in the teacher's guide, and then teach the child.  It is acceptable to use them as a direct teacher, though.  I wouldn't count it out based on that.

[Heather in VA]

Yes I've considered Dolciani based on reviews I've seen here but I'd really like to see it before I bought it. I found an old thread where someone had attached samples but they weren't there anymore. It was almost 4 years old so I assume the forum ages out attached files. Do you know where I might see some samples?

[Heather in VA]

I really like the Fresh Approach books to - we have the Geometry text.  They seem like they'd work well for the same kind of kid MM works for. MM 7 is Pre Algebra, have you taken a look at that?  What has she used and liked in the past?

 

I didn't realize MM had a pre-algebra. I haven't looked at them in several years and I think last time I did they had up to 5th or so. I'll check it out. We've used R&S and CLE but I wouldn't use the word 'like' for this child and math. She's a late math bloomer and her learning issues made it so that I used the curriculum but taught it myself (i.e. took the topics in order of the book but didn't really use the book) and altered the problems, or at least the amount of problems. She has really matured and gained stamina over the last 12 - 18 months and I think she's ready to really use a text with me teaching and helping but not totally replacing the curriculum. We've looked at several together and the word she keeps using is 'quiet'. She wants a book that is 'quiet'. So as clean as possible is key. I am sure she's going to like Fresh Approach when we get there. She read the samples and said they really made sense to her.  The narrative type dialog in Fresh Approach and AOPS seems to be what helps her the most.  I wish she had a pre-algebra book. 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, if you like a narrative approach that is written to the student, you might try Jousting Armadillos.  My dd loved it. The authorial voice really comes through, and it's a funny voice, with a good sense of humor, and you feel like he's talking right to you.  My only hesitation with suggesting it is that it doesn't review all of the operations on their own, but in the context of solving single-variable equations.  So you might be better off with MM7, if your dd will tolerate it.  But JA and its followup books for Algebra 1 were a huge hit here.

[Heather in VA]

I haven't seen Jousting Armadillos. I'll take a look. It's a fine line with her on the narrative voice. That is what makes the most sense to her as long as it's not too much narrative and not enough math. Life of Fred doesn't work for her at all. She can't extract the concept from the story, even though she likes the story. 

[Chrysalis Academy]

I get it.  JA isn't narrative like LOF is, it's more . . . conversational?  You feel like the author is speaking to you.  He tells little stories or jokes that illustrate the points. But there isn't a "storyline" in the sense of LOF.

[Heather in VA]

I get it.  JA isn't narrative like LOF is, it's more . . . conversational?  You feel like the author is speaking to you.  He tells little stories or jokes that illustrate the points. But there isn't a "storyline" in the sense of LOF.

 

CONVERSATIONAL!!!! That's the word I've been trying to come up with. Clearly I didn't get enough caffeine today. That's it exactly. The conversational tone really helps her understand. Off to read more samples from Jousting Armadillos.  Thanks!!

[wapiti]

What if... you use the AoPS text with her for the teaching (probably with a white board).  Then go to Dolciani, glance at the lesson and do the exercises in there to practice.  IIRC, Dolciani lines up well enough.  There are a few differences that would be easy to accommodate IMO.

 

I think I was the one who posted the Dolciani samples years ago but took them out so that I could post pics somewhere else.  I'd have to hunt to find them on an external drive but if I get around to it, I'll try to post (though I'm not sure I have the capability to post pics anymore at all?)

[kitten18]

Your description of your DD sounds similar to my DD. She liked BA and I know there are parts of AOPS that she would like but she doesn't love math and she doesn't want to spend hours and hours a day on it.

 

We started JA at the end of May, we only spent a couple weeks on it before taking a summer break but so far she really likes it.

I also have a copy of Lial's 3rd Edition PreA coming tomorrow. I'm a little confused about if JA is complete or if I need to supplement it.

 

 

I hope you'll update with what you decide to do.

[kitten18]

What if... you use the AoPS text with her for the teaching (probably with a white board). Then go to Dolciani, glance at the lesson and do the exercises in there to practice. IIRC, Dolciani lines up well enough. There are a few differences that would be easy to accommodate IMO.

 

I think I was the one who posted the Dolciani samples years ago but took them out so that I could post pics somewhere else. I'd have to hunt to find them on an external drive but if I get around to it, I'll try to post (though I'm not sure I have the capability to post pics anymore at all?)

That is an interesting idea, I have AOPS PreA, at home, I will have to look at it.

 

Is it there a specific edition of Dolciani?

I'm pretty sure I have an old Dolciani Algebra on my shelf (I'm away from home for a few more days) but not the PreA.

[deerforest]

My DD thrived in BA and hated pretty much every other elementary math program so we used a ton of different sources. I did the same with pre-algebra. I owned Lial, Dolciani, AoPS, JA, MM, Tablet Class, Key to.. and a bunch of other supplemental stuff and manipulatives. I mostly felt like pre-algebra was mostly just a review of all elementary math with a light introduction to algebraic concepts. I mixed and matched a bunch of things to just fill in any holes she had. I kinda felt disappointed by pre-algebra, as weird as it sounds. We probably could have just gone to algebra and taken it at a 2-year pace instead. I might do that anyway just so we have time for living math and other fun things.

 

She is quite strong with math but doesn't love it. She loves the conceptual explanations associated with AoPS, but she does not like their discovery-based approach. She would rather do just about anything than work math that way. So, I used it a lot for conceptual understanding with practice coming from the other books, as needed. I think by the end, AoPS and Dolciani ended up being a pretty good combo.

 

We are switching to Foerster for algebra I with plans for Jacobs for Geometry. But, I fully expect to continually pull in materials from other sources.

[Heather in VA]

My DD thrived in BA and hated pretty much every other elementary math program so we used a ton of different sources. I did the same with pre-algebra. I owned Lial, Dolciani, AoPS, JA, MM, Tablet Class, Key to.. and a bunch of other supplemental stuff and manipulatives. I mostly felt like pre-algebra was mostly just a review of all elementary math with a light introduction to algebraic concepts. I mixed and matched a bunch of things to just fill in any holes she had. I kinda felt disappointed by pre-algebra, as weird as it sounds. We probably could have just gone to algebra and taken it at a 2-year pace instead. I might do that anyway just so we have time for living math and other fun things.

 

She is quite strong with math but doesn't love it. She loves the conceptual explanations associated with AoPS, but she does not like their discovery-based approach. She would rather do just about anything than work math that way. So, I used it a lot for conceptual understanding with practice coming from the other books, as needed. I think by the end, AoPS and Dolciani ended up being a pretty good combo.

 

We are switching to Foerster for algebra I with plans for Jacobs for Geometry. But, I fully expect to continually pull in materials from other sources.

 

That is what I did with my other two, especially my middle daughter. She didn't need a review and was already deep into the kind of thinking needed for Algebra. This one isn't there yet. There doesn't seem to be a step between just doing elementary math and full blown algebraic problems. I thought that was what pre-algebra was but there isn't much difference between the algebraic concepts in pre-algebra and in algebra 1. 

[Farrar]

Nm... hold on...

 

Edited August 1, 2016 by Farrar

[Farrar]

nm... not sure why that didn't work...

Edited August 1, 2016 by Farrar

[wapiti]

Here is one pic, I think that is all I will be allowed

 

(aside - this is very weird - I am posting from my phone but cannot access the forum at all from my computer )

Edited August 1, 2016 by wapiti

[Heather in VA]

Wonderful!! Thanks wapiti!! That helps a lot. And thanks Farrar even though it didn't work. I really appreciate you both taking your time to help.

[wapiti]

Is it there a specific edition of Dolciani?

I'm pretty sure I have an old Dolciani Algebra on my shelf (I'm away from home for a few more days) but not the PreA.

I think any edition of Prealgebra, An Accelerated Course will do, circa 1986-1992

 

Eta another pic for heather

Edited August 1, 2016 by wapiti

[...................]

My dd also gets distracted and even i do as well. So I know what you mean.

 

I would look at Dolciani,but FYI it's somewhat advanced

Math mammoth might be great but it's even more advanced - my dd needs more arithmetic review

 

I haven't looked at JA - sounds like it might work too

[wapiti]

I would look at Dolciani,but FYI it's somewhat advanced

Math mammoth might be great but it's even more advanced - my dd needs more arithmetic review

For arithmetic review, Lial's BCM probably has the most, among the programs that I have seen myself. Edited August 1, 2016 by wapiti

[lisabees]

DD also used the combination of AoPS and Dolciani.  It worked well.

 

She also used MEP 7-9 to supplement.  

 

I haven't looked at Lial's in years, but I remember it was a big book.  I personally didn't like the layout.  I'll look for it today to see if my memory serves me right.

[Heather in VA]

Thanks for all of the great information. I'm still looking through everything and trying to decide. Just because I have to know about ALL my options LOL - what do any of you know about Dimensions Math? It's from Singapore and there seems to be 7th and 8th grade level.

[Julie of KY]

It doesn't fit your guidelines as it is video based, but my daughter did very well by doing Derek Owens prealgebra (with me grading) and then has followed it up with AoPS Prealgebra which is definitely a step up.

[Heather in VA]

Julie, 

 

Is it possible to use Derek Owens without the videos? Can I teach it myself? I see the you said you are grading but the website implied you turn things into them to grade. Does that mean you have the option to have them grade but don't have to? I'd prefer to do it myself. Did you feel like you had to follow it up with AoPS Prealgebra to be ready for Algebra or did you just want to take it deeper? 

[Lucy the Valiant]

We just finished Dolciani Pre-A here (after Singapore 1A-6B), and the pre-algebra book is exactly like the algebra book; it give examples of the concept, then A-B-C level practice sections. Self-tests and review sections cycle through regularly.

 

Not sure if that's helpful or not, but - I had 2 students using it simultaneously, and they felt it was pretty straightforward. We supplemented with Khan Academy and also Life of Fred Pre-Algebra (more for enrichment and entertainment purposes; they used the Dolciani (which is locally referred to as "Houghton-Mifflin") for primary instruction.

 

Our texts have a brown cover and were wicked cheap through AbeBooks.

[Lucy the Valiant]

Thanks for all of the great information. I'm still looking through everything and trying to decide. Just because I have to know about ALL my options LOL - what do any of you know about Dimensions Math? It's from Singapore and there seems to be 7th and 8th grade level.

 

We took a look at it when deciding what to do after SM6 - I was mistaken about availability of the books, so rejected it largely based on that assumption. It is integrated (which for us was a con), rigorous (think Challenging Word Problem style), and as my DS calls it "skinny-looking" (size of text, haha!).

 

Not sure what we'll do for next kid coming up, but he leans Singapore-ish in his thinking, so we may have him do DM instead of Dolciani, but Dolciani has been an excellent fit for my olders.

[Heather in VA]

It doesn't fit your guidelines as it is video based, but my daughter did very well by doing Derek Owens prealgebra (with me grading) and then has followed it up with AoPS Prealgebra which is definitely a step up.

 

Julie... I just spent some time watching the videos and I really like what I see. I had my daughter watch one and she wasn't opposed to them. She said as long as I watch with her and teach her too she'd try it. I think the videos only being 5 - 8 minutes or so helps a lot. I also noticed that he has the first 4 chapters of videos on his youtube page for free so I can start and see how it works before having to sign up. I just would have to get the workbook from Lulu. 

 

I think I might have found the right option. I'm going to sleep on it but I think I found it!! 

[Julie of KY]

In response to some of your other questions:

 

Yes, you can buy the workbook from Lulu and watch the videos. What you would be missing are the homework pages and test pages. I don't think you miss much by skipping the tests, but the homework helps reinforce it. I bought it all on a flash drive back when he was selling it that way.

 

For all his courses, he offers half-price option in which you buy the book and he gives you access to the videos, homework, tests and all the solutions and you grade it yourself. Since much of the prealgebra videos are on youtube for free, you might email him and ask if you can get access to the homework.

 

I think Derek Owens preps well for algebra, but I knew my daughter both needed more reinforcement as well as to take it deeper with AoPS. She was ready for the challenge of AoPS, but needed much more reinforcement of skills such as fractions, decimals, percents. Doing DO first was perfect for her and set her up well to do AoPS. Some kids could go straight to algebra, but I knew she needed more reinforcement. (She deals with multiple learning disabilities so has challenges from multiple directions).

 

I try to use the videos first (though my daughter isn't a huge fan) and then anything she has problems with, I go back and teach with the workbook.

 

My son has used the half-price (with me grading) option for physics.

[Heather in VA]

Thank you so much for the info Julie. I emailed Mr. Owens about the grade-it-myself option. I figured I'd use the videos like you do - use them first and then I would step in a teach and clarify. I don't think she would  be able to just watch them and teach herself but it would be a good starting point. 

 

 I feel so relieved. I think I'm on the path toward a solution.  I will worry about whether to go into Algebra or if she needs more when we are done. One step at a time :-). 

 

THANK YOU!!

[Heather in VA]

Julie, 

 

Can I bother you with a few more questions? I signed up for Derek Owens (with me grading) and now I can see the workbook, practice problems, homework problems, and syllabus. How exactly did you schedule this? It looks like you can't do the practice problems until you've viewed all the videos for that lesson section. But then you have homework problems too that look very similar. According to the syllabus the first week includes 15 videos, 2 homework sections and 2 practice problem sections. How do you balance it so you aren't watching 6 or 7 videos one day and then doing both practice and homework the next - or is that what you've been doing?

 

Thanks!

[fourisenough]

Following

[Julie of KY]

Julie, 

 

Can I bother you with a few more questions? I signed up for Derek Owens (with me grading) and now I can see the workbook, practice problems, homework problems, and syllabus. How exactly did you schedule this? It looks like you can't do the practice problems until you've viewed all the videos for that lesson section. But then you have homework problems too that look very similar. According to the syllabus the first week includes 15 videos, 2 homework sections and 2 practice problem sections. How do you balance it so you aren't watching 6 or 7 videos one day and then doing both practice and homework the next - or is that what you've been doing?

 

Thanks!

 

I schedule a "week's" worth of videos divided over the days of the week. She has the option of doing a bunch in one day, but that doesn't work well for her.

After watching the videos, I see if she can do the workbook practice problems herself. Sometimes she can, sometimes she needs be to go back over the teaching material. I run the homework problems a section or two behind the videos she is watching. I also take the test and just give one page a day for the week rather than all in one day. Basically I aim for some videos and about 2 pages of work per day, but I usually aim to have the 2 pages cover different topics.

 

My son (when he did physics) did all the videos in double time and took notes in double time - I have no idea how he processed it this fast, but it worked for him.

[Heather in VA]

Thanks Julie. Your daughter sounds a lot like mine. Watching a whole bunch in one day wouldn't work well for her either. I like your approach. It seems doable without leaving her exhausted. If we do too much math, she can't function for the rest of her subjects. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me through this. 

[kbutton]

Thanks for all of the great information. I'm still looking through everything and trying to decide. Just because I have to know about ALL my options LOL - what do any of you know about Dimensions Math? It's from Singapore and there seems to be 7th and 8th grade level.

 

It sounds like you are on your way to solving your dilemma. We are using DM, and we like it. It's not ugly (it's well-organized), but it's cluttered. There are some learning through trying concepts types of exercises. 

 

Have you seen the mathequalslove blog? It's a teacher blog, but she has a lot of materials she created for her students to use in notebooks and to practice individual skills. There is some great stuff on there for cementing things for kids who might need a little extra. It emphasizes math vocabulary, and you basically create a reference as you notebook. My son likes using those materials. They aren't all tailored to pre-algebra, but there are some that apply. As you move into algebra, even more are available. It would totally take the cluttered look of things out of the equation--just a page or two on a concept, sometimes some cutting and assembly (minimized), lots of games for practicing skills, etc. 

[...................]

My dd just went back to her old standby this week and she couldn't be happier.  Horizons math has one VERY short, to the point lesson, and the entire lesson is two pages.  There is almost always enough space to do the actual work, and it progresses quickly but clearly.  She loves that it's always exactly two pages, and she takes a little break between pages as a way to take a break and also motivate herself through the first page.  The crisp clean layout is inviting and it goes well into Algebra 1 concepts.

 

There aren't a lot of word problems like AOPS (of which I am very familiar because my son used it) but there is some application and critical thinking.  

 

I myself thought she would do well with a change and bought an excellent textbook but the distracting pages, sidebars, and long explanations were completely overwhelming to her.  She also has focus issues, and with Horizons she can just move so fast through the explanation and start working.

[Janeway]

Yes I've considered Dolciani based on reviews I've seen here but I'd really like to see it before I bought it. I found an old thread where someone had attached samples but they weren't there anymore. It was almost 4 years old so I assume the forum ages out attached files. Do you know where I might see some samples?

They look just like the Jurgenson's Geometry books, only algebra content. See if you can find a sample of that one. Or look at the Algebra 2 sample..but imagine it with algebra 1 content. I really like the lay out. It is worth considering. I assume the pre algebra is the same.

[MerryAtHope]

 

Thoughts? Oh and she does not learn well from video lessons. I'll be teaching her. I can handle that so that's not an issue but a program like MUS is out because she despises the videos and there isn't really much of a text to go with it. 

 

I wouldn't assume MUS is out. You can either watch the videos yourself (usually 5 minutes--they're very short) and then teach her, or teach her from the Teacher's Manual, or both. The workbook is definitely clean and uncluttered, and the approach worked well for ADHD here.

[HeatherL]

Here are scans of chapter 10 that I just found.  If you click on the arrow near the bottom you can see multiple pages.  https://www.yumpu.com/it/document/view/25662809/dolciani-chapter-10-ramsey-school-district

[wapiti]

Here are scans of chapter 10 that I just found.  If you click on the arrow near the bottom you can see multiple pages.  https://www.yumpu.com/it/document/view/25662809/dolciani-chapter-10-ramsey-school-district

 

Well that put me on an interesting little rabbit trail LOL.  That link is not to the prealgebra book we were discussing upthread, Dolciani's Prealgebra, An Accelerated Course.

 

It is a link to Dolciani's Algebra Structure and Method, Book 1, which is an algebra 1 text published around the same time period.  I have the 1986 edition of that text though I'm guessing the linked one is later, because its page numbers are off by about 10 and some of the numbers of the problems are different.

 

Google also yields Chapter 8 of that algebra 1 text thanks to the same school district.  Chapter 1, Chapter 2, Chapter 3, Chapter 4, Chapter 5, Chapter 6,  Chapter 9 , Chapter 10, Chapter 11, and that's about all I can find; there are 12 chapters in all.  It's very inexpensive used on Amazon, at least the edition I have.  There are much newer editions in the late 1990s with even more recent re-printings, though I tend to prefer the older ones for formatting (not to mention that Dolciani's influence was long gone at that point, as she passed away in 1985).

Edited September 3, 2016 by wapiti