Help me think through this possibility *UPDATE*Remember This?

[RioSamba]

Tomorrow morning? You are much more patient than I am. The suspense is killing me!

[Guest]

So, it looks unlikely. :( The brother seems to think the issue is getting the farm for top dollar, which could be unaffordable for us. OTOH, if it sits there falling to pieces for 4? 5? 6? Years, it will be only less valuable. IMO, the best scenario would be for us (or any sibling) to buy it because then someone has a vested interest in repairing it. No one has the time or interest to manage repairs and renovations for the purpose of putting it on the market.

 

One possibility is: they have an appraiser assess value now and put the house on the market. If we were to get an offer, the sibling who wants to buy it could top that offer, but if it is out of range, then the sale would go to the outside buyer. But the problem with this is, obviously, the farm could go to an outside individual with MIL sitting by going, "What?!" Also, clearing her property of all belongings would obviously go better if we lived there, but an outside buyer, we would have to remove everything in a short period of time.

 

It's a conundrum. I wish we had more money a available to do this.

[RioSamba]

Rats!

[EmseB]

In my mind, if I was dealing with this from your BIL's perspective, yes if I was selling to an outside buyer I'd be asking for top dollar. But, if a sibling wanted to buy that would be completely different. Especially if said sibling wanted to manage all the belongings and estate along with buying and maintaining the property. I'm guessing your BIL doesn't really see it that way?

[shawthorne44]

If you do end up buying the house, are there any changes that he wants that aren't needed?   Roof obviously needs to be done, regardless.   But, something mancave-ish or for his work?    You could ask that nothing be done on his list until the urgent list, and your list is done.  

 

If there isn't anything like that, maybe put the projects into groupings.   If anything in Group A isn't done in a year, then you can hire someone,   Group B has two years ...    Or whatever timeline works for you.  

 

Also, I would go ahead and remove anything that can be removed right away.   Even if it makes the house look worse.  For example, it is a lot harder to argue that a hole in the dining room wall is OK, than that an old intercom is OK.   

 

 

Edited October 16, 2016 by shawthorne44

[Guest]

In my mind, if I was dealing with this from your BIL's perspective, yes if I was selling to an outside buyer I'd be asking for top dollar. But, if a sibling wanted to buy that would be completely different. Especially if said sibling wanted to manage all the belongings and estate along with buying and maintaining the property. I'm guessing your BIL doesn't really see it that way?

No, it doesn't seem like he thinks that way. Because there are six kids, I guess there is greater worry that someone is going to feel we got the better share of the estate.

[Carol in Cal.]

No, it doesn't seem like he thinks that way. Because there are six kids, I guess there is greater worry that someone is going to feel we got the better share of the estate.

I think he is right about this, and it's exactly how to think about it.

 

It's already going to be a bit hard on people if you buy the place and become the proprietors of something that has felt kind of like common property all these years.  But then if you get a sweet deal that amounts to everyone else getting less, that would probably cause great resentment.

 

Quill, here's how it sounds to me--when you were considering this theoretically, you really could see clearly the downside to it; but now that it's possibly out of the question you're seeing the great value of it even more clearly.  And in that circumstance I'd say, move on this as hard and as quickly as you can, make a top dollar offer, and let the chips fall where they may or you could regret this for the rest of your life.  And also, if you can't get the house fixed up exactly the way you want, try to arrange to build a little retreat for yourself, a tiny house type thing or an indoor/outdoor gazebo, elsewhere on the property.  That wouldn't cost very much, and it might ease the urgency of the other needs.

 

(Having said that, OMGosh I hate blown in ceilings.  And aluminum windows.  And wallboard panelling.  And all the other ugly as s*** 70's house features.  With the kind of passion that could very well trigger depression if I had to live in a house with those.  And they can't really be covered up.  Ugh.  So I do get it.)

 

(Save the intercom.  Those things are actually fairly useful; you'd be surprised.  Remember, you want to age in place there.)

 

Re. 'the stuff', that's a nit in the greater scheme of things.  Eyes on the prize!

[Guest]

I think he is right about this, and it's exactly how to think about it.

 

It's already going to be a bit hard on people if you buy the place and become the proprietors of something that has felt kind of like common property all these years. But then if you get a sweet deal that amounts to everyone else getting less, that would probably cause great resentment.

 

Quill, here's how it sounds to me--when you were considering this theoretically, you really could see clearly the downside to it; but now that it's possibly out of the question you're seeing the great value of it even more clearly. And in that circumstance I'd say, move on this as hard and as quickly as you can, make a top dollar offer, and let the chips fall where they may or you could regret this for the rest of your life. And also, if you can't get the house fixed up exactly the way you want, try to arrange to build a little retreat for yourself, a tiny house type thing or an indoor/outdoor gazebo, elsewhere on the property. That wouldn't cost very much, and it might ease the urgency of the other needs.

 

(Having said that, OMGosh I hate blown in ceilings. And aluminum windows. And wallboard panelling. And all the other ugly as s*** 70's house features. With the kind of passion that could very well trigger depression if I had to live in a house with those. And they can't really be covered up. Ugh. So I do get it.)

 

(Save the intercom. Those things are actually fairly useful; you'd be surprised. Remember, you want to age in place there.)

 

Re. 'the stuff', that's a nit in the greater scheme of things. Eyes on the prize!

A lot of it for me is the idea of tearing the house down. I consider that ghastly. I have seen homes with far less potential and with far more enormous problems brought back to a very nice place to live. And, while there are awful things like paneled walls and the ubiquitous textured ceilings, there are also beautiful vintage irems that I would most definitely save (unless impossible), like the unusual mediterranean-like tile in one bathroom, and the stone firplace with woodstove, and the old-fashioned dining room chandelier. The house has a very agreeable layout and the overall style is charming.

 

I don't think there is any way for us to make a very generous offer and still have money to spare for reno. We don't want to take on house debt at this pont and we have years of college to pay for. So we have been clear from the start that we cannot move out of this paid-for house and move to something that will cost more money.

[Anne in CA]

No, it doesn't seem like he thinks that way. Because there are six kids, I guess there is greater worry that someone is going to feel we got the better share of the estate.

That was what happened with my father and his mother. Even though he took care of the farm for YEARS, one of my uncles was terrified my father would get more than him. It was not reasonable, but there it is. 

[EmseB]

No, it doesn't seem like he thinks that way. Because there are six kids, I guess there is greater worry that someone is going to feel we got the better share of the estate.

I am completely naive when it comes to stuff like that. Like if my brother took care of my parents' property and my mom I would just not care about things being equal. I think I've always thought there would be some inequality in work load or finances or property when the time came to deal with all of that. But with six (12?) people I'm sure it's a lot more difficult.

Edited October 16, 2016 by JodiSue

[Carol in Cal.]

 So we have been clear from the start that we cannot move out of this paid-for house and move to something that will cost more money.

Sounds like it's time to change your mind on this one.  

 

Eyes on the prize.  :)

[Carol in Cal.]

Quill, this absolutely smacks of 'OMGosh I wish I had...' to me.  Reeks of it.  

[Guest]

Quill, this absolutely smacks of 'OMGosh I wish I had...' to me. Reeks of it.

I hear ya, but...money. MoneyMoneyMoneyMoney. There's that.

[purplejackmama]

I hear ya, but...money. MoneyMoneyMoneyMoney. There's that.

Have I ever told you how much I dispise money. Loathe it really. The chase for it, the management of it, the stress of it. Ugh. Money.

Edited October 17, 2016 by purplejackmama

[Liz CA]

Since the things you are wanting to change are small items, you could give him a time frame in which he can get it done (nicely, of course  :)) If he is too busy to trim the shrubs and do the other things, I'd just hire someone. Sounds like you like the house on all the points where it counts and will be able to enjoy it - once your little list is done. ;)

[Guest]

Since the things you are wanting to change are small items, you could give him a time frame in which he can get it done (nicely, of course :)) If he is too busy to trim the shrubs and do the other things, I'd just hire someone. Sounds like you like the house on all the points where it counts and will be able to enjoy it - once your little list is done. ;)

Well, some of the things I want are small, but many are big. The small things I can and would readily do myself, such a tear down old wall paper, paint, replace light switches and some of the landscaping. But other issues are massive: re-roof, replace trimboard, change the front door, dig out (with an excavator) big, overgrown shrubs, complete kitchen reno from top to bottom, change out some bathroom fixtures. If I hired someone to do those things, he would file for divorce. ;) It would simply make no financial sense, just as it would make no financial sense for him to pay a professional painter to tear wallpaper and repaint. He is highly competent on all matters of building and has tools and equipment (and licensing) to do things like reno a kitchen.

[Innisfree]

This situation makes me so sad for you. I've watched two family homes that I would have loved to buy and live in be sold because it was financially necessary in some fashion. It hurts, and it can't ever really be fixed, especially if the house will be torn down. However, sometimes the necessity is real.

 

My only advice would be to think very carefully, trying to separate logic from emotion as much as you can. It sounds as if you'd like to get the house if the work you envision could be done immediately. But, would you want to get the house, paying top price so the whole family is satisfied, if that meant postponing the work for some years until you could afford it? Do you want it that much?

 

Or one other possible (probably very difficult) way to approach the situation might be to look at the house, at a lower price, and your MIL's care as a unit. I don't begin to know how this would work for you and her and the suitability of her house for elder care, and I've done enough elder care to understand what a huge undertaking it is. But I think I remember discussions of your MIL's situation, if I'm not mistaken. Is she moving between all the siblings' homes for a month at a time, or some such arrangement? That sounds fraught with all sorts of difficulties for her and everyone else. Could she stay at her own home if you all were there with her, and in consideration of your work there, might the siblings look at the price of the home differently?

[TammyS]

 

Or one other possible (probably very difficult) way to approach the situation might be to look at the house, at a lower price, and your MIL's care as a unit. I don't begin to know how this would work for you and her and the suitability of her house for elder care, and I've done enough elder care to understand what a huge undertaking it is. But I think I remember discussions of your MIL's situation, if I'm not mistaken. Is she moving between all the siblings' homes for a month at a time, or some such arrangement? That sounds fraught with all sorts of difficulties for her and everyone else. Could she stay at her own home if you all were there with her, and in consideration of your work there, might the siblings look at the price of the home differently?

 

The fact is that the home and MIL's eldercare ARE one unit, regardless of how you slice the pie.  Someone could get the house, for some admixture of $$/care, or the house can be sold for $$ and then those dollars go toward MIL's care.  The older she gets, the more it will costs. Driving to doctors appointment (you can't even believe how many of these there can be) costs not only gas, but lots of hours that someone won't be working.  Other errands (trips to the pharmacy, the beauty parlor, whatever).  Food isn't free, even for 1 older person.  Medicines cost ghastly amounts of money sometimes.  If she ends up in a nursing home, that is thousands per month, and most states have a 6-10 year look-back before medicaid will pay a dime, which means the sale money will go to pay the nursing home. Unless the house is worth mega bucks, there is a very good chance that nothing will be left of the proceeds by the time she dies, anyway, so thinking in terms of inheritance is foolish.  Her care is where that money will end up going.

[Soror]

Has it been appraised? My thought on it- is get an appraisal. Any sibling can put in an offer for the appraisal value(minus 1/6th which would be their inheritance). I'd also think that 10-20% should be taken off the value just for the sake that it is family and selling it to family reduces the workload.

[Katy]

Why does BIL have any say in this at all?  If MIL isn't capable of living on her own, but is mentally capable, she can decide what to do with her own home. She's the one who gets to decide to go for top dollar, or to sell it to family for the appraised amount.  She's not dead yet.  It's up to her.

 

And if it's NOT up to her, you might as well get an appraisal, as well as ask what the numbers would be if the house was torn down, because I seriously doubt it would be higher with no house on the farm and a big area where the house was that cannot be farmed.

[TammyS]

 

 

And if it's NOT up to her, you might as well get an appraisal, as well as ask what the numbers would be if the house was torn down, because I seriously doubt it would be higher with no house on the farm and a big area where the house was that cannot be farmed.

 

That will depend on whether or not a likely buyer will consider the house a tear-down.  If most buyers would be looking to build fresh, then the property is worth market value - (tear down cost + 10% of tear down cost). 

[Guest]

Why does BIL have any say in this at all? If MIL isn't capable of living on her own, but is mentally capable, she can decide what to do with her own home. She's the one who gets to decide to go for top dollar, or to sell it to family for the appraised amount. She's not dead yet. It's up to her.

 

And if it's NOT up to her, you might as well get an appraisal, as well as ask what the numbers would be if the house was torn down, because I seriously doubt it would be higher with no house on the farm and a big area where the house was that cannot be farmed.

This BIL is the executor of the will. He is also, IMO, the most diplomatic and level-headed of the siblings (undoubtedly why MIL named him Executor).

 

Besides, DH is trying to not incur the ire of five siblings and their spouses and possibly their kids, KWIM? MIL would happily sell the farm to us; she has expressed a wish for it before. He spoke to his brother before his mother 100% to avoid seeming like he's trying to get the better share. His mother would happily give it to us, but we clearly cannot do such a thing.

 

We may get an appraisal. I have not let go of this idea completely; I said this to DH yesterday. It would solve several problems in a win-win way, not least of which is: it would make someone (us) motivated to take on the renovations; otherwise, the house is just sitting there going to pot indefinitely.

[Guest]

That will depend on whether or not a likely buyer will consider the house a tear-down. If most buyers would be looking to build fresh, then the property is worth market value - (tear down cost + 10% of tear down cost).

Yes, and there are complexities involved as well. The house could be put in the farm bank, which generates a sum for twenty years. But if in the farm bank, it (obviously) cannot be subdivided. But if not in the farm bank and with the house removed, it would be worth a great deal to a developer. However, several of us are developers, so selling it as developeable property to another developer would be insanely stupid.

 

*I* personally see the house as FAR from a tear-down. Maybe it's all those HGTV shows I watch ;) but clearly, that house has much potential. But I do think this BIL has been building (and living in) such magnificent houses, he doesn't realize there are people who are perfectly happy to rehab an older home and make it pretty again. That house will never be at the standard that he considers normal now, KWIM? So that could be part of why he thinks of the house that way.

[ktgrok]

How would MIL feel about subdividing it and you get the house and surrounding area, and the other siblings get the rest? With everyone paying what each parcel is worth?

[Guest]

How would MIL feel about subdividing it and you get the house and surrounding area, and the other siblings get the rest? With everyone paying what each parcel is worth?

It can't be subdivided without infrastructure development. There would have to be someone financing and managing the development and permitting. Anyway, I would not want it that way. I only want it as a never-subdivided farm.

 

The main motive for moving off our current property is because we own three other adjascent lots, which we plan to build on and sell. I don't want to live here with three neighbors. I only love this lot as it is now, secluded.

[ktgrok]

It can't be subdivided without infrastructure development. There would have to be someone financing and managing the development and permitting. Anyway, I would not want it that way. I only want it as a never-subdivided farm.

 

The main motive for moving off our current property is because we own three other adjascent lots, which we plan to build on and sell. I don't want to live here with three neighbors. I only love this lot as it is now, secluded.

 

Gotcha. I'd get an appraisal then. 

 

How does MIL feel about selling to a developer versus keeping it intact?

[Guest]

Gotcha. I'd get an appraisal then.

 

How does MIL feel about selling to a developer versus keeping it intact?

Once she's no longer here, she wouldn't care, but she definitely does prefer that one of her kids or grandkids would buy that farm and live there (as a farm). She has said so, not very long ago. Because DH operates his bisiness out of there, she has asked him if he would consider it. This was probably 2 years ago.

[shawthorne44]

It seems like a shame for someone who wouldn't appreciate the house to get it.  

 

Seems to me that the house could be sold to whichever sibling is willing to pay the highest price that is at least appraised value.  If the best-use of the house is a tear-down, then the appraisal will reflect that.  

 

At first it made sense that the price of the house would be reduced by 1/6.   But, I think Quill's DH's share of any cash by reduced by the same amount.