not passing Barton screening...any alternatives to LiPS?

[caedmyn]

I gave my 5.5 YO the Barton screening.  He passed parts A & B fine, didn't pass part C.  I stopped it halfway through because he was doing so poorly.  He was having trouble with both auditory memory and auditory discrimination.  He mis-heard a couple of the sounds initially, and then several times would say the sounds correctly after me, but then forgot or mixed them up as he was pulling down the colored markers (couldn't pull the markers down without saying the sounds at the same time).  He wanted to learn to read a month or so ago so I started him with 100 EZ Lessons.  He's doing fine with the actual blending but keeps mixing up /m/ and /n/, sometimes /s/ and /t/ (no idea why on these two...maybe just because they're next to each other in the alphabet?), and saying /th/ as /f/.  He has a 7 YO brother who is very likely dyslexic, and a 10 YO sister who has some symptoms of dyslexia as well so I thought it might be a good idea to give him the Barton screening.  He can't seem to rhyme either.

 

Should I be concerned about this with a 5.5 YO? The Barton website recommends finding someone to tutor him with LiPS.  Are there any at-home alternatives to LiPS?

 

I just feel...cursed.  I don't have learning problems, DH doesn't have learning problems, we're both bright (or at least I used to be before thyroid problems messed up my brain function)...why are our kids having all these problems??  Actually I already felt cursed.  4 kids with multiple food intolerances, 4 kids who woke up 5+ times a night well into toddlerhood, or until sleep training got it down to once or twice a night for the last two, 4 kids who have always taken 30-90+ minutes to fall asleep every night and wake up at the crack of dawn...why can't anything ever be easy?  I just wanted normal kids.  And we get to go through it all again in a few months, and somehow I'm supposed to find the time to do intensive phonics etc with 3 kids while managing the preschooler and the new baby.  Just venting, feeling frustrated and discouraged.

[PeterPan]

You've already said in another thread you weren't open to pursuing evals, but evals would be *really* interesting with this.  My guess is they would explain why you're kids are so active, etc.  You said both parents are bright.  You know that sleeping less is common with high IQ kids?  So we go back to the train you didn't like, suggesting to get evals.  ;)

 

Yes, he needs LIPS.  You probably would do well to take other of your kids through it, so you might as well just buy it.  It takes some time to read, but it's scripted and not terribly difficult.  You'd get to re-use it with the rest, so you might as well.

 

As for why, well I have no clue about your genes.  Sometimes it *did* come from one of the parents but is just expressing a different way or in a more challenging way.  At some point, maybe after you get evals (hint, hint), you might like to read something like Dyslexic Advantage.  There's also a video floating around the web of someone famous talking about dyslexia as his SUPERPOWER and how a teacher revolutionized his life when he explained it that way.  Again, evals can be part of finding STRENGTHS so you're not only looking at their weaknesses.  And the ps will do the evals for FREE.  

[caedmyn]

Does dyslexia only occur in right-brained/visual learners? My DD is definitely not a visual learner. My 7 YO definitely is, and he fits the dyslexia profile perfectly (and the adhd one too). She doesn't fit into either of those boxes so neatly even though she has a number of symptoms of both. I don't think the 5 yo is visial either though it's a little harder to tell at that age. But I could tell the 7 yo was visual when he was 5.

[Crimson Wife]

I got a new-but-shelfworn copy of the LiPS manual through Gander Publishing's Amazon store relatively cheap. I haven't found it too difficult to use at home.

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: 

 

1. You can get LiPS and use it at home.  I would recommend just going ahead and using LiPS or hiring a tutor that uses this program or seeking out a local tutoring center that incorporates LiPS into their program.  Trying something else in the hopes it will work may waste a lot of time and effort.

2. You can use it with multiple children.

3. Not all dyslexics are visual learners.

4. Read the Dyslexic Advantage for a more positive outlook and to better understand the more global picture.

5. Kids that don't sleep well can be truly exhausting for the parent.  Hugs and sympathy.

6. Getting evaluations will help you break this down into who needs what.

7. Both of my kids are dyslexic.  They do not have the same strengths and weaknesses within that diagnosis and presented vastly differently as younger children.  One passed the Barton screening with flying colors.  The other one bombed Section C.  They have needed different things to address their learning challenges and tap into their learning strengths even though they have the same basic diagnosis.

8. Dyslexics are usually quite bright.  Most are of at least average to above average intelligence.  Many are gifted.  Being dyslexic doesn't mean one isn't bright.  Usually it is just the opposite.  In the early years, though, their weaknesses in certain areas can mask their strengths.  (Evals would help you sort out their strengths so you could nurture those and use them to help with the struggle areas).

9.  Dyslexia usually has a genetic component so almost certainly it runs in one side of the family or the other.  Perhaps the person didn't even know they were dyslexic (DH certainly didn't when we started down this road.  He is a brilliant Engineer.  His coworkers have no idea he is dyslexic.)  Perhaps someone in the family was a stealth dyslexic?  Anyone especially able in areas like engineering, invention, architecture, entrepreneurship, writing (yes they can be brilliant writers), piloting, etc.?  Where it came from is irrelevant at this point, though.

10.  You have a LOT on your plate.  Have you looked at the Barton tutor list?  Perhaps you could outsource the tutoring for now.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[MistyMountain]

I completely feel you down to a kiddo the same age who failed the Barton screening and other kids with learning challenges. I also never had to deal with learning challenges myself and had babies and toddlers that did not sleep. I am not looking foward to doing LiPs myself since I did not like how another program if theirs was organized but I think that is my only option because tutoring with a speech therapist costs too much.

Edited April 19, 2016 by MistyMountain

[Lecka]

My older son did speech therapy at a clinic with a sliding scale when he was 6-7. My husband's insurance did cover it, but it would have been much, much less than prices I see mentioned here bc they had a sliding scale fee structure.

 

He had been in speech therapy through the school district for about 2 1/2 years by then without much progress, and his school speech therapist told me about this place, I wouldn't have known about it.

 

It is a university clinic and my son's speech therapists were graduate students supervised by a professor. So they were new and not getting paid for their time (I think), but they were very good I thought.

 

We did get lucky on this with where we live, and my son qualified with a large articulation delay.

 

But I think it is worth mentioning, that there might be a low-cost quality option.

 

I also think, depending on how difficult she is finding it, and his much time she has spent, you might try some phonemic awareness or phonological awareness materials that are aimed at pre-schoolers, to see if she would make any progress with it.

 

Just if it is available at your library, I don't think it is worth buying, but there is a book I liked called Phonics A-Z by Wiley Blevins, and he has some ideas, and he talks about "auditory discrimination in depth" the old name for Lips. He does also say, that at a certain point you go to a speech therapist. But he has maybe more things to try. This is like -- looking at your mouth in the mirror, and some things like that. I did get some good ideas.

 

Earobics is a computer program that used to get mentioned, with some people definitely finding it helpful.

 

I tried a competing computer program called Hear Builder that some people also find helpful, but it was a bomb here. My son just couldn't do it. But there are kids it is helping more, too.

 

So there are other options out there, but to some extent, sometimes people try them and they are effective, sometimes people try them and they are not effective and then they move on to Lips or speech therapy (as far as I know).

 

There is another computer program also, Fast Forward. I see it mentioned sometimes, too.

 

Earobics in particular used to be mentioned here a lot, I think.

 

There is a thing, though, called RTI. RTI level 2 is like "child needs extra help." A lot of computer programs are RTI Level 2. They are good for extra help.

 

Then there is RTI level 3. That is like -- the child needs one-on-one tutoring. Level 2 interventions are not sufficient.

 

So, if your child needs level 2 to make progress, then you can look at things like Earobics and games and more informal ways to work on it.

 

But if your child needs Level 3, then that is where it gets to be more Lips or speech therapy.

 

That is my opinion, at least. For a lot of things, you may be able to see in their description if they are level 2 or level 3, though.

 

Oh, maybe Wilson Fundations, if you have access to that (in a school, maybe). It is used in schools some places, and I don't know that it would meet the same need, but if it is available, it is worth checking I think.

 

I do think -- if a child needs Level 3, then kind-of by definition they have not had success with Level 2. So this is where, if a child needs Level 3, and you do Level 2, it is kind-of a waste of time. If your child would be fine with Level 2, though, then Level 2 is a good option.

 

Something to keep in mind, though, depending on how much you have already worked with her.

 

Homeschool is already a little like one-on-one tutoring, targeted to the student.

 

The RTI stuff is based on classroom instruction, and it is a little like "what kids can be fine with classroom instruction plus some computer instruction" bc they don't have enough people to do one-on-one with every child.

 

But in homeschool you are already at the one-on-one, targeted point.

 

So there is a part of me that thinks that considering this, it is more likely that if a homeschooler is looking, they may be more likely to need Level 3.

 

But level 2 is still good.

 

There is also really not much of a downside to taking a chance on Level 3, if Level 2 would have worked.

 

But if you need Level 3 and do Level 2, it can be a waste of time even if it is a quality level 2 program.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Lecka

[Joyful Journeys]

Caedmyn,

It is HARD. So hard. Everything was going fine until about 6 or so months ago. My 5 yr old couldn't pay attention long enough to finish *any* of the Barton. She maybe passed one section, a stretch. My 8.5yo totally stopped progressing in reading. She has really poor vision needing therapy AND didn't pass the Barton screening the first time (barely the second). The anxiety left over from kindergarten has resurfaced after we moved and it's hard to even get her to eat. My 3 yr old has sensory issues and a speech delay (maybe even autism) and I have an 8 month old cruising the house.

It has been so so hard. I basically closed out our school year last month. We are taking 3 months off to just chill. They can do pretty much whatever they way. Play on some learning games, listen to audiobooks or what have you. We have had tons of appointments with referrals and such through the school system, so I just let everything school wise that needed me go. I was going to lose my mind.

My husband, turns out, is likely dyslexic. He has never been made aware, but he's a poor speller, doesn't picture words at all, will do anything but read a book (unless it's a manual lol) and is incredible at building and fine tuning processes. The Dyslexic Advantage was so eye opening and I highly recommend it. Your children are indeed bright! It's just a different way of thinking. My mom was dx with ADHD as an adult and there is some mental illness on my dads side. There's some genetic things sprinkled in there, so here we are.

I'm trying to focus on the good. There are so many really really good tests to sort things out. There are so many really good interventions to help whatever comes out of that. I am able to homeschool, so they don't have to stress about fitting in on top of their struggles right now. We can just have fun while I prepare myself for what they need. We might not be spending our days having tea and reciting poetry, thereabs some grieving going on honestly, but they are going to love learning and do a lot of it, it is just going to be much different than I expected. Hugs!

Edited April 19, 2016 by Joyful Journeys

[PeterPan]

What's on your mind that the right-brain, VSL stuff is coming up?  It's a total rabbit trail and way more complex than just yes/no.  If you actually want to read about dominance, you want to get The Dominance Factor.  It shows how to test multiple dominances in the body to yield a pattern.  The book then gives personality and instruction profiles for each pattern.  You can be mixes, like left for some things and right for others.  It's interesting stuff.

 

The other thing you're glossing is that someone could have developmental vision problems AND dyslexia.  It's not like it's either/or.  You said you were already overwhelmed, so that's why I'm wondering why you're bringing that up, lol.  Like sure, consider one more thing than REALLY get overwhelmed, kwim?  

 

So yes, I took my ds to a developmental optometrist, which you can find through COVD, to get a regular check-up (the $100 thing) and have them screen for developmental vision problems.  You only need the longer eval they do if there's some reason, some indication.  Yes, some people with dyslexia, which is a phonological processing disorder and NOT considered vision per current DSM and psychs, will also have vision problems (acuity, developmental vision, etc.).  On that screening, my ds did not.  My dd, who is *not* dyslexic, did have developmental vision problems.  In her case, getting VT actually UNLOCKED her VSL side.  We had always seen hints of it in the way she conceptualizes things, designs, arranges the house, etc., but it wasn't coming out strongly because she had severe convergence, depth perception, etc. issues.  When we improved the developmental vision issues, her VSL side became a strength.

 

So I have no clue if your kids have developmental vision problems.  Sure, take them to a COVD doc and get them screened.  It's always good to get vision screened.  But that doesn't change whether they're dyslexic.

 

We've said this multiple times, but good thorough evals would help you IMMENSELY right now.  You're on the cusp of realizing you have a whole bunch of kids with challenges.  It's good to have the RIGHT WORDS for the challenges.  And not only the labels, but it's good to have the information from those evals so you can target your interventions.  We've already said this, but a CTOPP would not only help the psych diagnose dyslexia, sure, but it would actually give you really detailed info to guide your interventions.  Same with IQ testing.  You might say oh I don't need this, but the subtests kick you back info that could change how you work with them.  Our psych also did detailed language testing that helped me target my ds' language issues affecting his reading comprehension.  

 

Right now you're flying BLIND.  No evals, no way to know what to do first.  You really want evals.  It feels really stressful in the moment, but it would give you a lot of peace to have that info and to know you're going the right direction with each dc, targeting what they really need to succeed.  Your kids are young enough that you have time to intervene and turn this around with good information to guide you.  Don't be overwhelmed.  The techniques you learn for the one will help with the rest.  But you actually need EVALS for them, because each dc's mix will be a little different.  You don't want to assume, because you could be missing components that would UNLOCK SUCCESS for them.

[Crimson Wife]

 

It is a university clinic and my son's speech therapists were graduate students supervised by a professor. So they were new and not getting paid for their time (I think), but they were very good I thought.

 

The grad students are paying the university tuition to be there :lol:

 

Clinical practica come in the final year of graduate study after the foundational theory courses and the observation one. So while the students are new to actually running a therapy session (though some may have past experience as a SLP Asst, Applied Behavioral Analysis interventionist, or special ed teacher/para), they should have a basic level of familiarity with what they're supposed to be doing. And the supervising professor offers feedback & coaching on an ongoing basis.

 

When I did some observations last fall at an oral school for the deaf & hard-of-hearing, I did not notice any obvious quality difference between the grad students and the fully-certified therapists, with the exception of the senior SLP/supervising professor.

[kbutton]

Hang in there! We had some dyslexic symptoms, but it turned out to be a combo of other things (auditory stuff plus vision issues). I do hear you on the "I just wanted normal kids." Remember that people were not as likely to be identified (or identified correctly) even just a couple of decades ago. My extended family has a LOT of people in it--like hundreds in just ONE of my grandparent's families if they all showed up for a reunion. We have a few quirky people, but the pot is so diluted that you wouldn't really see much of a pattern until people compare notes. DH's family...let's just say quirky is the pattern. Few people, many, many issues. NONE were identified (except for a vague, "we tested, and you're not typical" WAY back when that's about all they could say), but one figured out some of her own issues in college and early adulthood (dyslexia, ADHD, and then some random stuff that might be auditory processing, some physical issues). It's hard, and sometimes people just skirt the line of diagnosis on the "normal" side but then pass down more significant/stronger versions of the same traits to their kids. 

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[caedmyn]

What's on your mind that the right-brain, VSL stuff is coming up?  It's a total rabbit trail and way more complex than just yes/no.  If you actually want to read about dominance, you want to get The Dominance Factor.  It shows how to test multiple dominances in the body to yield a pattern.  The book then gives personality and instruction profiles for each pattern.  You can be mixes, like left for some things and right for others.  It's interesting stuff.

 

 

One of the books I read on dyslexia, Gift of Dyslexia, says that dyslexia is always right brain dominance/visual-spatial related.  And something I read on ADHD said the same thing, and I've heard people talk about all these talents that dyslexic kids have, which would fit into that.  Like I said my 7 YO fits this profile really well...it was clear when he was really small that he was wired differently.  He can look at a book upside down and read it just as well as right side up (which isn't to say well by any means...but the orientation seems to make no difference to him, which would fit in with what the Gift of Dyslexia was saying).  In the past I read books that people recommended like The Out of Sync Child and they just didn't fit him.  This does.  But DD is very different even though she struggles with many of the same things, and I don't believe she is right brained or visual-spatial, so I was curious as to whether dyslexia really only occurred in visual learners.

[OneStepAtATime]

One of the books I read on dyslexia, Gift of Dyslexia, says that dyslexia is always right brain dominance/visual-spatial related.  And something I read on ADHD said the same thing, and I've heard people talk about all these talents that dyslexic kids have, which would fit into that.  Like I said my 7 YO fits this profile really well...it was clear when he was really small that he was wired differently.  He can look at a book upside down and read it just as well as right side up (which isn't to say well by any means...but the orientation seems to make no difference to him, which would fit in with what the Gift of Dyslexia was saying).  In the past I read books that people recommended like The Out of Sync Child and they just didn't fit him.  This does.  But DD is very different even though she struggles with many of the same things, and I don't believe she is right brained or visual-spatial, so I was curious as to whether dyslexia really only occurred in visual learners.

Please read The Dyslexic Advantage by Brock and Fernette Eide, if you can.  I think it is more well rounded in its approach to the strengths of dyslexic individuals.  The author of The Gift of Dyslexia is writing through the filter of his own experiences and is tying his book into his particular method of teaching  a dyslexic learner.  I think the book can be helpful but it is limited in its approach.  The Eides on the other hand have done a lot of research, interviewed many scientists and educators and adult dyslexics and have worked with many different types of dyslexic individuals over the years.

[Crimson Wife]

One of the books I read on dyslexia, Gift of Dyslexia, says that dyslexia is always right brain dominance/visual-spatial related.

 

Is that the Ron Davis book? That was interesting and had some excellent strategies on working with struggling readers, but his theory is pseudoscience. It's like Brain Balance- the activities may be helpful to certain kids, but not for the reasons claimed.

[ElizabethB]

Here is a thread I started with some cheaper alternatives. I also like the app Sounds of Speech by the Unversity of Iowa. They also have some if the stuff onlne for free, but the app is cheap.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/582944-phonemic-awareness-resources/?hl=%2Bphonemic+%2Bawareness&do=findComment&comment=6806116

[caedmyn]

I am going to get The Dyslexic Advantage from the library today.

 

I think I will get that Phonemic Awareness for Young Children and try that for a month or so before going for LiPS. $5 used on Amazon, and I haven't really done any phonemic awareness stuff with him before, so it seems like that would be a good place to start.

 

I need to get his hearing checked also as he's been saying that he can't hear things for the last couple weeks. I thought it might be earwax buildup, as I've had problems with that affecting my hearing, but a nurse friend with an otoscope checked his ears today and said he doesn't have that much wax in there, so I guess that's not it.

[Lecka]

I have seen that book, it has a lot of good activities in it.

[caedmyn]

 

 

We've said this multiple times, but good thorough evals would help you IMMENSELY right now.  You're on the cusp of realizing you have a whole bunch of kids with challenges.  It's good to have the RIGHT WORDS for the challenges.  And not only the labels, but it's good to have the information from those evals so you can target your interventions.  We've already said this, but a CTOPP would not only help the psych diagnose dyslexia, sure, but it would actually give you really detailed info to guide your interventions.  Same with IQ testing.  You might say oh I don't need this, but the subtests kick you back info that could change how you work with them.  Our psych also did detailed language testing that helped me target my ds' language issues affecting his reading comprehension.  

 

Right now you're flying BLIND.  No evals, no way to know what to do first.  You really want evals.  It feels really stressful in the moment, but it would give you a lot of peace to have that info and to know you're going the right direction with each dc, targeting what they really need to succeed.  Your kids are young enough that you have time to intervene and turn this around with good information to guide you.  Don't be overwhelmed.  The techniques you learn for the one will help with the rest.  But you actually need EVALS for them, because each dc's mix will be a little different.  You don't want to assume, because you could be missing components that would UNLOCK SUCCESS for them.

 

I talked to a homeschool mom here who has a background as a special ed teacher, has a PhD in special ed, homeschooled/is homeschooling her own children with dyslexia and one with ADHD, and she said that state law here doesn't require the public schools to provide any special services to homeschoolers, so they generally won't (regardless of what federal law is supposed to mandate).  She also said she requested an assessment for an adopted child who at the time was in the public schools here...this would have been 3-4 years ago...and they wouldn't do it even for him.  They did a Response to Intervention instead.  I've gotten the same feedback from others here too, like the person I talked to at the Scottish Rite center here who said there was no one here who tests for dyslexia and they have to refer people to the state university language center which is 2.5 hours from here.

 

I'm not saying evaluations are completely out of the question, but it seems really unlikely that we'd be able to get free ones through the school system.  And then the cost of getting evaluations...for three kids...becomes a huge issue!

[OneStepAtATime]

I talked to a homeschool mom here who has a background as a special ed teacher, has a PhD in special ed, homeschooled/is homeschooling her own children with dyslexia and one with ADHD, and she said that state law here doesn't require the public schools to provide any special services to homeschoolers, so they generally won't (regardless of what federal law is supposed to mandate).  She also said she requested an assessment for an adopted child who at the time was in the public schools here...this would have been 3-4 years ago...and they wouldn't do it even for him.  They did a Response to Intervention instead.  I've gotten the same feedback from others here too, like the person I talked to at the Scottish Rite center here who said there was no one here who tests for dyslexia and they have to refer people to the state university language center which is 2.5 hours from here.

 

I'm not saying evaluations are completely out of the question, but it seems really unlikely that we'd be able to get free ones through the school system.  And then the cost of getting evaluations...for three kids...becomes a huge issue!

:grouphug:

 

What you might consider is just checking with local neuropsychologists (if there are any) and just inquiring about your oldest to start with.  The other children have a bit more time.  Just find out what the cost would be (if there is more than one option, check with each of them and make sure you are comparing apples to apples since prices and services may vary significantly), the time frame involved to even get seen, and if it is a long lead time you could go ahead and put them on the schedule but you would have time to really think it through.  You could also check with insurance, etc. to see what might be covered from that end.  If, further down the road, you do end up getting that evaluation, you can then determine if it would be worth it to try pursuing evaluations for your other children, perhaps spaced out over a year or two.  In the meantime, that first eval may give you some useful info for helping the other children.  

[PeterPan]

Do you live somewhere very remote, isolated, or rural?  I definitely can believe there are parts of the country where it's this hard, yes.  I think what you're going to need to do is look at your state's dept of ed and make some calls.  The *school* is not going to tell you the law, but you can find it and use it to advocate.  In our state (and probably most), you are able to *dispute* the results of the evaluations and request independent evals ON THE SCHOOL'S DIME.  In other words, you'd have to jump through hoops, but you could request evals for all your kids (I kid you not), go through the process for every one, and if they don't do it correctly DISPUTE and force them to pay for the 3rd party evals.  

 

Federal law (IDEA) mandates they identify children in their district with disabilities.  It's federal law.  Your state law determines the rest.  It's true they do not have to provide services, but that's your state law deciding that.  FEDERAL law requires them to eval.  And your state probably has some dispute process that protects you and gets you independent evals.  Some people have said that when the school cannot provide the evals they will sometimes go ahead and pay for 3rd party evals.  So you'll need to talk with your state's dept of ed and find out the law and see what you can make happen.

Edited April 20, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Joyful Journeys]

Do not ask "Do they test for dyslexia?" It's actually termed "specific learning disability -reading" or something like that. You simply write a letter that states the issues you have seen and that you suspect learning disabilities.

 

Could you share what state you are in? I'm sure someone here could help point you in the right direction. Here, we will likely not get services either as funding doesn't allow, but the testing is a federal mandate they cannot ignore.

[ssavings]

Does dyslexia only occur in right-brained/visual learners? My DD is definitely not a visual learner. My 7 YO definitely is, and he fits the dyslexia profile perfectly (and the adhd one too). She doesn't fit into either of those boxes so neatly even though she has a number of symptoms of both. I don't think the 5 yo is visial either though it's a little harder to tell at that age. But I could tell the 7 yo was visual when he was 5.

I'm dyslexic (mildly),DD#2 is dyslexic (moderate/severe); neither of use are visual learners at all.

[Jenn in CA]

  I've gotten the same feedback from others here too, like the person I talked to at the Scottish Rite center here who said there was no one here who tests for dyslexia and they have to refer people to the state university language center which is 2.5 hours from here.

 

Did you apply to Scottish Rite? They do testing. Not "on demand," but you fill out the paperwork, they put you on a waiting list, and when you get in you start meeting weekly, but the first couple meetings are testing.

 

I think you aren't accepted unless they're pretty sure, by your paperwork, that your child is dyslexic (or has any other issues they work with).

 

And my dyslexic child isn't a visual learner at all. Unfortunately, she's not auditory either. But we persevere.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Jenn in CA

[caedmyn]

I specifically asked at the Scottish Rite here if they tested for dyslexia and they said no.

 

We are in Montana.

[caedmyn]

Resurrecting this...would there be any point to doing LiPS for about 5 mins twice a day? This kid has a 5 minute attention span for anything reading/writing/coloring/phonological awareness/etc involved. He hits that five minute mark, and he's done, he's tired of it, and he's not going to cooperate anymore. He doesn't have ADHD, he just doesn't want to do things for very long. He'd probably be diagnosed with ODD if I ever pursued that though.

[Jenn in CA]

Sure. You can do a lot in 5 minutes.

[BlsdMama]

You've already said in another thread you weren't open to pursuing evals, but evals would be *really* interesting with this.  My guess is they would explain why you're kids are so active, etc.  You said both parents are bright.  You know that sleeping less is common with high IQ kids?  So we go back to the train you didn't like, suggesting to get evals.   ;)

 

Yes, he needs LIPS.  You probably would do well to take other of your kids through it, so you might as well just buy it.  It takes some time to read, but it's scripted and not terribly difficult.  You'd get to re-use it with the rest, so you might as well.

 

As for why, well I have no clue about your genes.  Sometimes it *did* come from one of the parents but is just expressing a different way or in a more challenging way.  At some point, maybe after you get evals (hint, hint), you might like to read something like Dyslexic Advantage.  There's also a video floating around the web of someone famous talking about dyslexia as his SUPERPOWER and how a teacher revolutionized his life when he explained it that way.  Again, evals can be part of finding STRENGTHS so you're not only looking at their weaknesses.  And the ps will do the evals for FREE.  

 

 

<3

 

I especially enjoy this:

 

"As for why, well I have no clue about your genes.  Sometimes it *did* come from one of the parents but is just expressing a different way or in a more challenging way. "

 

 

And to add, the why matters less than figuring out how best  to deal with challenges and evaluations really contribute so much to beginning the journey of how to deal expressly with your child.

[BlsdMama]

Resurrecting this...would there be any point to doing LiPS for about 5 mins twice a day? This kid has a 5 minute attention span for anything reading/writing/coloring/phonological awareness/etc involved. He hits that five minute mark, and he's done, he's tired of it, and he's not going to cooperate anymore. He doesn't have ADHD, he just doesn't want to do things for very long. He'd probably be diagnosed with ODD if I ever pursued that though.

 

 

To add to this - I'd encourage you to pursue it.  I'll re-word this for you: he's not attention deficit, he just can't keep his attention the same way a neurotypical can...

 

I'm not being condescending, I'm re-wording it so you can realize what you wrote.  

 

You know, I never thought of any of my kids as ADD/ADHD.  I'm 17 years now into raising DS (very, very gifted, moderate dyslexic, and now I know ADHD) and I did so many good things with him just intuitively.  But I'm further down the line and have two more that are far more affected and I know realize  that knowledge is a tool to best equip ME to work with them most effectively, kwim?

[caedmyn]

To add to this - I'd encourage you to pursue it.  I'll re-word this for you: he's not attention deficit, he just can't keep his attention the same way a neurotypical can...

 

I'm not being condescending, I'm re-wording it so you can realize what you wrote.  

 

You know, I never thought of any of my kids as ADD/ADHD.  I'm 17 years now into raising DS (very, very gifted, moderate dyslexic, and now I know ADHD) and I did so many good things with him just intuitively.  But I'm further down the line and have two more that are far more affected and I know realize  that knowledge is a tool to best equip ME to work with them most effectively, kwim?

 

Yes...but the thing is, I have two other kids who appear to be ADHD.  One appears ADHD-inattentive, and the other is *quite* ADHD everything.  So it's not like I don't know what it looks like, and this kid is nothing like either of them.  I know it sounds odd, and I don't know how to explain it.  He just gets bored with just about everything quickly, whereas the others have things that they will do for long periods of time.  Not abnormally long, but DD will read for hours, DS1 will play with Legos or Duplos for long periods of time, they both tend to lock onto the TV if it's on.  They do hyperfocus at times.  He doesn't.  Until very recently it was hard even finding a movie that he will sit and watch for very long.  He just wants to go dig in the dirt for a little while, then go climb trees for a little while, then go ride his bike for a little while, then climb something else for a little while, and on and on and on.  So idk how to describe him.  He's the most typical of my kids, in terms of seeming pretty much like most kids his ages to the average person. 

[PeterPan]

We keep suggesting evals, and that's why.  My ds was like that, and he turned out to have astonishingly poor single sentence comprehension.  He wasn't UNDERSTANDING the television or books or anything, so he didn't stay.  And he got ADHD combined diagnosis and later added ASD.

 

On that dc, I would not do LIPS now.  I would focus on behavior, do standard, good things you do with kids (read alouds, AAR-pre, puzzles, etc.), and then get him evals when he turns 6.  And I would make sure behavior and lots of stuff is on the table.

 

You're pregnant, your dh is opposed, and you've got a lot you've been sorting through.  I took a year to accept my dd's issues, even after I was told.  I get it in that sense.  I haven't been pregnant 5 times, lol, and I get that you're trying to keep the dh happy as well.  I'm just suggesting that at some point you see enough flags that you go wow I really need info to teach this kid better.  That was the line I used with dh.  I told him that I could NOT teach this child without better explanations.

 

I'm pro evals.  You can walk into your ps and get them, by federal law.  They won't be perfect, but the price will be right, free.  The trouble is that to explain what is going on with this ds5.5 you're probably going to need some detailed testing. You need language testing, which either a np or SLP can run.  And the regular stuff (WISC, CTOPP, achievement, behavioral, etc.).  So when money is tight, the ps could get it done.  Or go through the state medicaid.  Or...

Edited July 5, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[caedmyn]

I wouldn't mind getting somebody evaluated just so I can say to DH, "See, they really do have something wrong with them.  I'm not making this up."  He thinks I'm just looking for things to be wrong with them.  Like I enjoy creating more work for myself....

I tried to get him to give the 5 YO the Barton screening part C today because he doesn't cooperate well for me and it's hard to tell how much of him failing it is actual problems with it, and how much is lack of cooperation.  DH acted like he couldn't understand how to do it so I asked him to sit with us so he could make 5 YO behave himself.  I quit halfway through the test again because he'd already missed quite a few.  DH started telling me he couldn't understand some of the sounds I was saying so how is 5 YO supposed to, and he couldn't remember three sounds in a row either and he can read just fine so how is this test valid and how is a 5 YO supposed to do if an adult can't?  And telling me 5 YO was saying some of the sounds properly when he wasn't (like /n/ for /m/....I looked at his mouth to be sure, and he was saying what I thought he was, not what DH thought he was).  And yes I passed the Barton tutor screening.  And DH does NOT have any signs of dyslexia or speech problems or auditory processing issues or hearing problems.  Sometimes I want to rip my hair out trying to talk to him about stuff.  I remembered why I try to avoid involving him in school stuff if possible.

 

Side note: 5 YO kept missing things because he would say the sounds correctly initially, then he'd say them correctly as he pulled the colored bears that we were using as markers down (he can't seem to do it without saying them again), and then I ask him to say them again after he'd pulled them down and this time he'd mess them up.  I don't understand how he can say them correctly twice and two seconds later get them mixed up.  And he got worse as the test went along.  Maybe it's a memory thing, but this is my kid who has no trouble remembering multi-step directions, unlike his older siblings.

[PeterPan]

Did you already do parts A and B with this ds5.5?  How did he do on those?

 

Yes, working memory is a component being tested in the pretest, because a certain amount of working memory is necessary to identify sounds, hold them in your head, and blend together.  And not that we like to sit here analyzing people's husbands, but we've pointed out to you that your dh is evidencing having some challenges himself.  That is what that test is telling you, and that is what the blowing off is telling you.  And I would encourage you, as the mother, to STOP DOUBTING YOURSELF, stopping letting him blow off things, and make some moves.  

 

 

[PeterPan]

Adding: I'm concerned about how that behavior went.  Mere, mild, simple ADHD (inattentive) or no ADHD could have just been compliant, done some, gotten squirrelly, and bopped off.  You might have been able to use a positive bribe/reward.  Every time you describe what's going on, it just sounds like there's more going on, like he's pretty challenging to work with, and it's so much like my ds was.  At that age (3-5), you could sorta make it work if you were VERY high tempo, with short sessions, willing to engage on what interested him, blah blah.  By 6-7 even that stopped working.  

 

To me I think you ought to take that behavior very seriously and be pursuing evals for ALL your kids but ESPECIALLY this one, because it might not improve just by waiting.  I thought a lot of things would improve on my ds by waiting, and they didn't.  Instead they moved from hard to impossible.

[BlsdMama]

I wouldn't mind getting somebody evaluated just so I can say to DH, "See, they really do have something wrong with them.  I'm not making this up."  He thinks I'm just looking for things to be wrong with them.  Like I enjoy creating more work for myself....

I tried to get him to give the 5 YO the Barton screening part C today because he doesn't cooperate well for me and it's hard to tell how much of him failing it is actual problems with it, and how much is lack of cooperation.  DH acted like he couldn't understand how to do it so I asked him to sit with us so he could make 5 YO behave himself.  I quit halfway through the test again because he'd already missed quite a few.  DH started telling me he couldn't understand some of the sounds I was saying so how is 5 YO supposed to, and he couldn't remember three sounds in a row either and he can read just fine so how is this test valid and how is a 5 YO supposed to do if an adult can't?  And telling me 5 YO was saying some of the sounds properly when he wasn't (like /n/ for /m/....I looked at his mouth to be sure, and he was saying what I thought he was, not what DH thought he was).  And yes I passed the Barton tutor screening.  And DH does NOT have any signs of dyslexia or speech problems or auditory processing issues or hearing problems.  Sometimes I want to rip my hair out trying to talk to him about stuff.  I remembered why I try to avoid involving him in school stuff if possible.

 

Side note: 5 YO kept missing things because he would say the sounds correctly initially, then he'd say them correctly as he pulled the colored bears that we were using as markers down (he can't seem to do it without saying them again), and then I ask him to say them again after he'd pulled them down and this time he'd mess them up.  I don't understand how he can say them correctly twice and two seconds later get them mixed up.  And he got worse as the test went along.  Maybe it's a memory thing, but this is my kid who has no trouble remembering multi-step directions, unlike his older siblings.

 

 

caedmyn,

 

I can't tell you exactly what you're seeing in this kiddo because there are just so many pieces to every puzzle (kiddo) out there.  But here's what I saw/learned for the short time I tutored - people say all sorts of things to "cover up" for not being able to do things. I saw adults (ADULTS) say, "Oh, lol, I didn't hear that." (Yes, you did.  I was sitting less than 2' from you speaking directly at your face.  You didn't hear it CORRECTLY which is fine, but correct.)  I saw them become very frustrated/agitated to sit through an entire tutoring session because they had "lost interest" and wanted to walk away.  They had not lost interest.  It was hard, incredibly hard for them, and they didn't want us to see how much they struggled as older children/adults.

 

No one wants to feel "dumb."  And it isn't even being dumb - it's a learning difference.  But kids (and even adults) think their struggles reflect their ability/intelligence.  And no one wants to feel like they are inadequate.  And so these very bright individuals quickly learn to cover up - maybe it's by "not hearing" or "oops, mixed that up," or "I'm bored.  I want to do something else," or "I will NOT" (because stubborn is better than feeling dumb too.)

 

I have eleven children.... Half of them are neurotypical.  Most of the non-neurotypical are gifted.  But one child in particular is very challenging.  He is not ADHD (though he is ADD) and I had/have no clue how to play Rubics cube with him.  We had evals a few years ago and it really unlocked the box.  I didn't *understand* everything being told to me at the time, but it was valuable because it told me information I didn't have - mostly the working memory piece.

.

.But, *more importantly* we had held off on evals because we didn't want to give him some kind of label or stigma.  IMO, it was a huge mistake.  He still makes excuses, doesn't like to work, etc., but he can articulate his struggles better.  

 

For example:

 

"We need to sit down and do this."

"I really  don't want to."

"I know you don't.  It's super hard - your brain is dyslexic - so many gifts, but for this, this is SO hard.  I understand.  But we get stronger by working through our weaknesses, right?"

"Yeah.  (Sigh.)"

 

He now understands he isn't stupid.  He's dyslexic - it makes things harder for him but he CAN overcome.

 

In the bottom of every person sits their insecurity and it wiggles at them.  And for so many who are dyslexic, they secretly worry they are dumb.  The "label" lets them know their struggle is normal and that they can overcome and remediate.  It gives them a voice in their head to say, "It's okay that I struggle at this."

 

And DH recently heard DS tell someone at Trail Life, "I am dyslexic.  Reading is hard for me." 

 

I also want to let you know that learning struggles (even the same label) can look very different in kids.

DS 17 - is highly academically successful (scored in the top 5% in both reading and spelling on the ITBS) and he is moderately dyslexic.  He is ADHD (has hyper component) but has strong executive function skills.  

If I compare him to DS 11, who is also dyslexic and ADHD, they are different creatures entirely.  They look NOTHING alike.

 

And your kiddo may have no comorbidities - like ADHD.  And he may not have dyslexia at all - - - all I think this board is saying is that when you post, we see:

 

1. The warning signs of an LD  - and that can lead to a lot of heartache, anxiety, and tension between the child and self and the child and parent when you don't know what you're seeing.

2. You may have to jump through hoops but evals exist out there for each child.  It was a huge budget thing for us, to be honest.  We used part of our moving budget for evals before we came back to the Midwest where we felt we would have more limited access.  2.5 hours to drive to have access may seem like a lot but it's often only 1-2 days and then you have answers. Tax return might be a good time to have that talk.  Calling your insurance and finding out if they will cover ADHD evals (and through whom and then researching to make sure you get the most you can out of the best evaluator you can find rather than the closest which won't tell you squat.)

3. Making those phone calls or scheduling a meeting at your district to talk about federal law, rights, etc.,   Sometimes we have to push hard for our kids and smooth paths for others.

4. Only you and your husband can decide whether or not you can do this.  But when you have a mystery box (a child) and wonder how to figure things out, while we want to help as best we can, without evaluations from someone who knows what they are seeing, can admin tests, can piece out the puzzle, we just aren't very effective and we can end up suggesting things that will not be the most effective use of your time, money, energy.  KWIM?

[BlsdMama]

Adding: I'm concerned about how that behavior went.  Mere, mild, simple ADHD (inattentive) or no ADHD could have just been compliant, done some, gotten squirrelly, and bopped off.  You might have been able to use a positive bribe/reward.  Every time you describe what's going on, it just sounds like there's more going on, like he's pretty challenging to work with, and it's so much like my ds was.  At that age (3-5), you could sorta make it work if you were VERY high tempo, with short sessions, willing to engage on what interested him, blah blah.  By 6-7 even that stopped working.  

 

To me I think you ought to take that behavior very seriously and be pursuing evals for ALL your kids but ESPECIALLY this one, because it might not improve just by waiting.  I thought a lot of things would improve on my ds by waiting, and they didn't.  Instead they moved from hard to impossible.

 

 

This.  And to echo, I'm really on a nasty learning curve on ADHD.  We "handled" everything fine with all of our kids until DS (now 11.)  Finally, partially in desperation and partially in frustration, we got evals when he was 7/8.  Even then, I tried to disregard the ADHD piece.  If you noticed my recent posts, we are now getting pre-puberty and I'm hitting a wall.  Because I know so little about ADHD and because I thought that was a very small piece of his eval and because I'm not equipped with knowledge and understanding, I'm finding myself dog-paddling against the current.  

[caedmyn]

I hear what you guys are saying.  Idk....I think with this kid I need to see if I can make some progress with the oppositional defiant stuff first, because I am certain that is why he is so difficult to work with.  He fits the descriptions in the books I've been reading on it perfectly.  There's nothing in all the books I've read about ADHD, and even a little on autism, that fits him.  Plenty on ADHD that fits my other two, but not him.  I'm not saying that's causing the difficulty with the Barton screening, but when it's like pulling teeth to get him to do 3 minutes of handwriting practice that he says he wants to do at home, with a reward at the end, yet on several occasions at church when he has nothing else to do he's voluntarily spent 15 or 20 minutes writing (or trying to write) letters...that's telling me it's not particularly difficult for him to write, he just wants to be difficult at home.  Same thing with coloring--5 minutes is about all I can get him to color at home, but there's been quite a few times at church when he's spent anywhere from 20-40 minutes coloring.

[PeterPan]

I'd want a psych to sort out ODD vs. ASD.  Some kids start with one label and flow to the next.  What looks like ODD on my ds *is* the ASD.  It's probably the worst thing about him.  Stimming doesn't bug me one bit.  Repetitive noises don't faze me.  But the oppositional stuff is what forced us to bring in a behaviorist.  So to me, to say oh it's ODD and assume it's *not* other things that would get you coverage, that's kinda tricky.  I wouldn't be there.  And not having the diagnosis for WHY those challenging behaviors are occurring means you don't have the funding the diagnosis would bring.  You also aren't connected then to the better therapies for it.  For my ds, the oppositional stuff is theory of mind, social, perspective taking.  He's in his world and can't understand *why* he would like to do those things, so he can't be compelled.  Bringing in ABA (behaviorist and tutor), we were able to flip that and help him see ok, I WOULD like to be with those people and I DO like some of the things complying gets me, even if it's not ALL of it.  

 

So yes behavior is what you have to get in order to make the rest work, but I'm just suggesting that once you get as serious as discriminating ODD, ASD, etc., it would sure be nice to make sure you're discriminating it accurately.  He has clear symptoms of ADHD but keep saying he doesn't.  There's probably a lot going on that you're so close to it you can't see.

Edited July 6, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[imagine.more]

I DIYed LiPS and it worked out pretty well. It's a bit confusing to sort out at first but if you give yourself a few weeks with it and then just dive in and start you'll be surprised how much you and your son learn. There's some really neat speech therapy stuff in there in addition to phonemic processing and dyslexia stuff. Super interesting! 

 

I'm doing LiPS now with my 5.5 year old because he's obviously dyslexic and bombed the Barton Pretest too. So LiPS it is. it's tedious, and tough with a squirmy 5 year old but I know it'll help tremendously. AND, I know that by doing it now he'll never have to struggle with reading or think he's stupid like all of the older kids I've tutored. These are bright, good kids who are struggling with anxiety and poor self-esteem all because the core part of school---reading is so unbelievably difficult for them. Anyway, I'm excited to start from scratch with him and make sure he learns the right way and never has to have negative associations with reading. Your son is the same age and so you have the same benefit of time. Time is a beautiful thing to have with a child who learns differently.

[OneStepAtATime]

I know you guys say she should get an eval, but she lives in what sounds like rural Montana and according to HSLDA they say 

 

 

Montana

Under Montana law, a home school is not included in the category of either a nonpublic or a private school. Accordingly, the state has no duty under federal law to provide special education and related services to home school students.

 

 

So she would have to travel 3 hours without her husband's blessing and come up with the money herself.  I can see why she is grasping at other straws.  Can you guys brainstorm ways she can get an eval in rural Montana?

That is a really tough situation to be in.  I have been having to drive 4 hours each way but at least my husband is sort of on board now.

[PeterPan]

The schools don't have to provide services, but federal law requires them to eval.  And when the school says they don't care and shouldn't have to because they're not writing an IEP, go back to federal law that requires them to identify children with disabilities.  

 

Unfortunately, since there could be more on the table (spectrum, auditory processing disorder, etc., I don't remember), it gets more complicated.  The school system isn't typically going to handle the ASD evals well and won't have the booth setup for APD.  I'm just agreeing there are certain things the school won't do well, even if she goes in and asks.  A LOT of what she needs done could be done by the schools if she would ask.  They won't provide services, but they have to eval.

 

I'm pretty sympathetic on the idea that it takes a while to sort things out in your mind.  She's NOT the only one here who has had to deal with family who disagreed on things.  She's also not the only one who had issues with money or access.  I don't think in the end it's about that.  I think the thing is to get through the grief and are you really sure stage and move into the I WILL do something about this mode.  And really, no one can rush that for her.  I've taken a long time with both of my kids at these steps, so I'm certainly not one to fault someone for taking their time.  We might remind her, but only because we're trying to help her connect the dots, not to badger.  She'll make the move when she sees she needs it and she's ready.  When she sees it and is ready, she'll find a way and answer the how herself.  She's not asking the how, so it's superfluous to get there.

 

I don't really have a sanctified opinion on the idea of men vetoing evals or other essential things for our kids, so I really have to bite my tongue there.  

Edited July 7, 2016 by OhElizabeth