DH is fed up with the kids... and so am I,.

[Citrusheights5]

What to do withentitled kids who do not want to do anything that takes them out of their bed. (no... literally... will spend 12 hours a day in bed.) Anything I ask them to do is done with comments of " Do I have to?" " Not now"(my answer is yes NOW" or " Why do I always have to do it?" .

 

When I talk to them everything is a joke, or not taken seriously. You can see the words flying out the other ear... When DH tries to explain to them how to do something, they look away- make a joke- or complain...

 

So far our response has been to make them ________ (insert job here) expecting them to grow out of the attitude Ummm.. not happening.. So where do I go from here

 

This is for the older 2, but it is bleeding into the littles. Any questions or pointed advice welcomed..

[Remudamom]

Life shuts down. Let them stay in bed. Without food. Don't let them get up. Make them pee in a cup. No phone, tv, books, games.

 

Seriously, I'd be tanning some butts around there.

[Happy]

What Remudamom said.

 

Two or three days ought to change their attitudes.

[Kelli in TN]

Life shuts down. Let them stay in bed. Without food. Don't let them get up. Make them pee in a cup. No phone, tv, books, games.

 

Seriously, I'd be tanning some butts around there.

 

I agree with all of this except the peeing in a cup part. I can't handle the peeing in a cup part!

[Mom2legomaniacs]

I have to agree with all taken away. They get nothing. No privileges in the least. Nothing that comes close to fun or entertaining at all.

[Camy-7 boybarians 1 lady]

Yah...I'd kick them out and make them pee outside (grin).

[Happy]

Yay, the more I think on it...they can have bread and water AND their school books.

 

Everything else is gone.

 

A gal on another board does the 'if a man doesn't work, he won't eat' Bible verse with her kids. She talks about the verse with them and posts the verse on the fridge. Then she assigns chores and schoolwork. At the end of the day, if they aren't finished with their work, they get bread and water, while everyone else in the family gets pizza.

[Camy-7 boybarians 1 lady]

Trust me..I know how this works. After being sick, tired, and pregnant for much of the last 15 years, my parenting will go by the wayside and the kids will tend to follow right along w/ me.

 

Your kids didn't get this way overnight, and they won't change overnight.

 

I'd do a serious bootcamp. But remember, this will require a sacrifice and payment from you as well. In the USMC, the Drill Instructors are in better shape than the recruits. They can do twice as much suffering as their recruits.

 

Take away all privileges, luxuries, etc. Put them (and yourself) on a strict schedule w/ clear expectations. Just to keep them motivated, you may want to surprise them at the end of a hard day w/ something. A movie, candy, whatever..

 

This won't be easy though..especially at your kids' ages.

Blessings.

[Camy-7 boybarians 1 lady]

Meant to post this above.

[Danestress]

Thats true for me, anyway.

 

When I find that I am determined, organized, and totally "present" in the school and chores arena (as opposed to chatting with my super cool online homeschool friends, lol) it goes way better.

[Mom to Aly]

Thats true for me, anyway.

 

When I find that I am determined, organized, and totally "present" in the school and chores arena (as opposed to chatting with my super cool online homeschool friends, lol) it goes way better.

 

I must admit, this is me too--when I really concentrate on dd, everything goes well. When I am too distracted--or too "online", which happens a bit too much lately, ahem, things don't usually go as well, for some reason.

 

Can't figure it out! ;)

[Kathleen in VA]

I owned a copy of this booklet when my older children were small. Now it is online free of charge. I highly recommend the advice it gives:

 

Under Loving Command

[Linda...inOwasso]

The problem with discipline is that we, as parents, suffer too. It's no fun being the bad guy or imposing consequences, but it's definitely necessary if we want our kids to behave decently.

 

It's such a matter of habit. Kids will get away with whatever we let them get away with. I know it's not easy, but enforce consequences for their actions and the behavior will rapidly improve.

 

Best of luck!

[teamturner]

I've recently tried something with my kids when they complain about doing a chore. If they complain about it then they get a second chore to be completed immediately following the first chore. It's helped. My dc have learned over the years that living in a family is about serving each other. I use the Biblical example of Jesus coming to serve not to be served.

 

It sounds like your dc have gotten into the habit of speaking disrespectfully to you and your dh. I'm not sure I have the best advice about that but it must be dealt with ASAP. Do they have regular jobs/chores that they are expected to do? They should. How do you get them to do their school work? There needs to be some structure to their day with a wake up time, breakfast time, school time, chore time, etc.

[hsmamainva]

frozen marbles. :D

 

I'm totally lost!! What are the frozen marbles for??

[Jean in Newcastle]

to get them out of bed!

[hsmamainva]

to get them out of bed!

 

Oh!!! Thanks! :D

[Pamela H in Texas]

I'm going to be blunt but try to come from a different direction.

 

Children will be children if left to their own choices. Children must be taught, trained, guided, corrected. A lot of times, parents seem to do pretty well with littles regarding these things whether they do them punitively or with better methods. But preteens seem to stump parents.

 

Preteens are still children. They are pushing for more responsibility and priviledge and they should start getting these. However, they come together. And when they behave as children, they must still be disciplined (taught, trained, guided, corrected). It's a difficult balance. Their age, maturity, etc makes it tougher because we know we have several more years before they need to have self-discipline and self-control so don't want to just strong-arm them (and btw, SHOULDN"T want to just strong-arm them because they will NOT learn if they are overly controlled externally). But we can't neglect our position to parent them either.

 

At 10 and 11, your kids know right from wrong. They are simply doing what you have allowed them to get away from. It is very unlikely you can just reason them back from where they are. They didn't get there overnight. Instead, the road has to be more narrow and more cramped to encourage them in the right direction.

 

First, as others have mentioned, a lot is determined by your presence. If you are in the presence physically and mentally to guide and correct as necessary, it'll go a lot smoother. Your consistency will make the biggest difference. If you sigh and walk the other direction, don't notice something undone until an hour later, etc, they are getting away with (and being harmed by) their disobedience, laziness, etc.

 

Second, have basic routines. This is another area where parents get loose with older kids and we homeschoolers are probably extra bad about it because we CAN give our kids so much freedom. But if they were my kids, they'd be given alarm clocks and expected to be up, chores done by a certain time, ready to start school. I'd let them have limited choices. There may be very few limited choices at first but then in time, I'd give them more. But they have to prove themselves ready first.

 

They need additional responsibilities in the family and community also. With these come additional rights. You step up to the responsibilities, you get the rights. If you want to be treated as older, you must behave older. Many times, we want our kids to prove themselves before moving up a level. Well, it has been my experience that it works better to assume they are ready and let them step up to the plate. In our case, I had a stroke that necessitated a change. I don't wish that on anyone, but I do think it helped my kids, especially my then preteen son, considerably.

 

One thing we've had to do on two occassions is to go back to requiring a certain response. Typically, I reserve this for toddlers and some preschoolers, but sometimes just to bring peace back to the home, to remind all of us about obedience, etc, it is helpful. Instead of allowing things to fly out the other ear, the child must either say "yes, mom" and hop to it or to say something like, "yes, I'll take out the trash right now." The obedience must be immediate. If they have an issue with an order, they can take it up with you after obedience for now. When they have shown they are obedient, you can allow them to "argue appropriately" at other times such as, "May I take out the trash after I finish this chapter?" "Do I have to?" is NEVER an appropriate response.

 

Really, at this point, you just need to put a spotlight on their behavior a little more. They can't have the freedom of adults to choose when they'll get up, what work they'll do when, etc unless they are having the responsibilities of adults. At 10 and 11, they don't NEED that sort of freedom; it'll only get them in trouble! Instead, they can have preteen rights as they step up to additional responsibilities and do the basics of making a peaceful home, including obeying.

 

BTW, as for what they do with their time? I'd sit down as a family and make a list of all the things they CAN do. Lying around, watching tv, playing video games would be nowhere on this list. They can come up with all sorts of healthy alternatives and then start doing those. If they know you won't let them lie in bed, they'll take up something more worthwhile. I'd make sure that specialized chores, helping neighbors, working, in-depth Bible/Character study, etc were on this list. If they can't choose somethng for themselves, mom will have to choose for them. They'll choose for themselves. And it'll be worth it to them because they had a hand in making up the list.

 

I hope some of this helps. It sounds like if you just are consistent about requiring compliance and respect as well as make it where their life isn't quite so free, y'all will do fine. A little structure and discipline goes a long way :)

[mrsdash]

Pamela- I think your opinion is right on the money and I applaud you. We have our children write out goals and read them daily. If they have a map of where they want to go, there is a much better chance of them getting there. As for your comment that basically said the kids will do it now and ask questions later (not exactly what you said but I THINK it's what you meant), we do the same thing. Trust us that we are not leading you in the wrong direction. Do it now and if you want to know why, ask afterwards but do NOT try to argue or persuade us. In any case, I could not agree with you more. I ditto every word you said.

[mysticamethyst]

For us all priviledges would go out the window, every last one of them, this includes any sports or pay activites if they have any. There is no way my children would ever tell me no or I don't feel like it. I would take away the older ones beds, can't lay all day in something you don't own, and they don't own anything. Yes, this is extreme but so is the situation you are describing, at least to me.

You are in a tough spot but your kids need to realize you don't owe them anything, you did not bring them into this world for you to be servant to. If you and your dh do not like your children it's up to you and your dh to turn them into children you enjoy. It will be a tough few weeks but the rewards at the end will be worth it. Something els you could do is videotape your childen's behavior, mabye it would embarass them to see themselves through others eyes.

 

I hope that you are able to work through this with your family, it will be hard but so worth it.

[sadiegirl]

You could always fight fire with fire!!! Why don't you stay in bed? That way, no meals for them, no clean laundry for them(or clean sheets)....any other things that they expect that seem to magically just happen(in other words...Mom or Dad do them!). I know that might be hard having younger kiddos who depend on you but you could sneak them their meals!!!

I would consider removing all conveniences or forms of entertainment from within hand's reach of them.

 

You could take them to a nursing home or convalescent care facility to volunteer so they could see how people that CAN"T get out of bed for real reasons would love to be in your kids' shoes.

[Guest kacifl]

they have responded "it isn't my car". Similar responses when I ask for help with the chores. I finally sat them down and had this discussion...

 

"We all live in this house together. I drive the car for your benefit. The store, the soccer game, your friends. You and your friends mess it up, not me. If you want to cook dinner, fine, I'll do the dishes. You decide. Your father pays for everything, your food,the gas for your trips, your clothes, etc." You get the idea.

 

They really don't have many chores, dishes, sweeping the porch, taking care of their dog, keeping their room tidy.

 

This helped, but also, when they complain about a chore I add a second. If they complain about the second, I add a third. This stops the complaints, pretty quickly.

[mrsdash]

I have found out that I am pretty "alone" on my parenting views on this board but I am still entitled to my opinion. I am not trying to insult anyone. I DO NOT want to insult anyone. That said....I, personally, would not play games with them. I would not lower myself to a game playing level. These kids did not just wake up this way, this attitude has developed over time because they have been allowed to behave a certain way. There has to be some teeth in what you say, it has to mean something serious to them. There is such an abundance of children that seem to just say whatever the heck they want...."it's not my car"..."why should I?". I just don't get it- when and why has this happened?? This is becoming more and more common. It's not the kids, people!! It's the parenting. It's the mixed message, wishy-washy parenting that needs to be repaired. I can NOT imagine talking to my parents the way kids talk to their parents today. Did you guys talk to your parents this way?? Do you think our parents spoke to and questioned our grandparents this way? I doubt it. What has changed is the way we react to our childrens behavior. "We" accept this attitude from them for so long and then scratch our heads when they reach pre-teen age and can't figure out how we got here. They are doing what they are doing and saying what they are saying because they have zero respect for your authority. I would think my kids had lost their little minds if they told me that it was not their car or asked me "why should I?".

My solution would be to sit down with your husband again and decide to take control of these kids using methods that make it clear to them that YOU are the parent and THEY are not in charge. And then make it so.

And look, this poster asked for help and this is my contribution so please do not attempt to beat me up again, it's a waste of time.I'm not here to fight with anyone, I want to help,too.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Mrs Dash,

 

Though I have a feeling we would completely disagree about method, I do completely agree with you in theory. I believe it is the parenting that is the issue. Kids simply slipped into the behavior that was allowed.

 

The problem I have with these threads is that it seems like the answers tend to be punitive, sometimes severely and/or harshly so. Why on earth are the kids the ones punished for the parent's mistake? It makes so much more sense, to me, at least, for the parents to step back up to the plate and discipline (guide, teach, train, correct) instead of just punishing the kids.

 

Anyway, I detailed how that would look here. No way would I allow children to continue down such a course. However, no way would I punish my kids for me messing up and allowing, possibly even accidentally encouraging, such a course either.

 

Of course, most of this post wasn't towards you Mrs Dash :) I agree with you that things are going downhill. I agree that the parenting is the issue. You can't just allow your kids to do or say anything they please. They are kids and will not choose well on their own.

[mrsdash]

Yes to all you said, lol. And I think that, because of the way I must sound, people assume I am suggesting punishment. I believe it is the parents who are to blame and children are completely lost without our guidance. If we do not set boundaries or we set guidelines that are not clear, our children will naturally test them and attempt to move them in the direction of least resistance. I think that this poster needs to figure out exactly what it is she and her husband expect from their children and then make it crystal clear to them. Also, when you make a habit out of repeating yourself (such as "I am not going to say it again"...again and again) the kids don't buy a word you're saying.

I am not viewed as "mean" by my kids but if I was and it was in order to help them learn to be productive adults, then so be it. They would thank me later. My children know we are reasonable and we do not expect anything unreasonable from them. They are well aware of our commitment to them and they respect and trust us. Things have changed over the last several decades concerning child rearing and I don't see it as a positive change. Teaching empathy and the message that you treat people the way you want to be treated is important. This is fast becoming a world of children who think it's their world and all about them. I see so many parents who want to please their child at any cost and this is just one reason they behave this way. It starts from the beginning and progressively gets worse.We all make mistakes, there are no perfect parents and I'm certainly not claiming that title. I'm a divorced mom of 4 children and I've made many mistakes and had to regroup. My kids have been badly behaved and gone down roads that tested me. I can, however, say that, with the help of my husband (who has 4 children as well), we have re-grouped over the last several years and our kids get it now. WE got on the right track and they had no choice but to follow suit. This is something that you and your husband created and it sounds like you may just have to start again. Develop a plan,be a good example, be clear and let them know exactly how things are going to be. And then follow through with the consequences that you put in place.

[5kidsforME]

I have found out that I am pretty "alone" on my parenting views on this board but I am still entitled to my opinion. I am not trying to insult anyone. I DO NOT want to insult anyone. That said....I, personally, would not play games with them. I would not lower myself to a game playing level. These kids did not just wake up this way, this attitude has developed over time because they have been allowed to behave a certain way. There has to be some teeth in what you say, it has to mean something serious to them. There is such an abundance of children that seem to just say whatever the heck they want...."it's not my car"..."why should I?". I just don't get it- when and why has this happened?? This is becoming more and more common. It's not the kids, people!! It's the parenting. It's the mixed message, wishy-washy parenting that needs to be repaired. I can NOT imagine talking to my parents the way kids talk to their parents today. Did you guys talk to your parents this way?? Do you think our parents spoke to and questioned our grandparents this way? I doubt it. What has changed is the way we react to our childrens behavior. "We" accept this attitude from them for so long and then scratch our heads when they reach pre-teen age and can't figure out how we got here. They are doing what they are doing and saying what they are saying because they have zero respect for your authority. I would think my kids had lost their little minds if they told me that it was not their car or asked me "why should I?".

My solution would be to sit down with your husband again and decide to take control of these kids using methods that make it clear to them that YOU are the parent and THEY are not in charge. And then make it so.

And look, this poster asked for help and this is my contribution so please do not attempt to beat me up again, it's a waste of time.I'm not here to fight with anyone, I want to help,too.

 

I can't see where anyone was giving you a hard time? :confused:

[mrsdash]

no, not on this particular thread. There was a thread or 2 on this board where my advice and opinion on parenting seemed to cause more trouble than help and since it seems to be the same people posting, I just felt the need to preface. I am a little gun-shy at this point but I really do want to participate. I suppose, in hindsight, I didn't need to say that.

[Kathleen in VA]

I think Pamela and Mrs. Dash both have the right idea. It shocks me when people are mystified as to why their children do not obey them. I guess they don't see the connection between their lack of training and their children's lack of obedience.

 

Proper parenting requires patience, tenacity and lots and lots of love, but it is definitely worth it. I think many parents confuse complying with their children's desires with love. They bend over backwards to give their children everything they ask for so that their children will know that they love them. But love is not giving someone everything they want - it is doing what is best for them. Very often, when dealing with our children, it means saying an emphatic "No!" Children do not know what is best for them. That is why they have parents.

 

Many parents want to avoid conflict so they constantly give in allowing their children to rule the household. Conflict can be a good thing if you handle it properly. Someone is going to rule the house. Oughtn't it to be the parents who are older and wiser than the children who have no experience in life? Parent's need to fear disobedience and disrespect far more than they fear conflict.

 

I was at WM one day when a mother was being hounded by her toddler to buy a balloon. The mother refused. The child screamed and carried on for a solid five minutes while the mother, no doubt mortified, hurried through the checkout as fast as she could. The clerk who was dealing with me muttered under her breath, "Give her the ding-dong balloon for crying out loud." I could not restrain myself. I replied, "Why? Then she'd be training her child to scream any time she wanted something." I wanted to congratulate that young mom for putting up with her daughter's public tantrum and not kowtowing to her selfish desires in order to shut her up.

 

As parents we are always training our children. We are either training them to obey or to disobey. If you require something be done but do not follow up and make sure it gets done, you are training your child to disobey and causing them to lose respect for you. If you tell your child, "no" when they ask for something only to finally give it to them after they whine and carry on, you are training them to whine and carry on.

 

Parenting is not for wimps! (I have that on a refrigerator magnet on my fridge). Children who have not been trained to obey have been trained, by default, to disobey. All is not lost, though. As with any battle that appears at first to be lost, there must be a meeting of the officers in charge to plan a new strategy and then that strategy must be carried out with determination - no backing off. Once your children realize you mean business, they will come around and soon peace will reign in your home. If you do not take the time now to do it, you will find your situation deteriorating even more. Act now, act decisively, get it done.

[Frontier Mom]

I would suggest a book I just read called, "Have A New Kid by Friday" by Kevin Lehman. Especially for older children, he talks about "natural consequences" and gives lots of examples in the last half of the book. I read this in two days but, I will warn you, he states that it will get worst before better and I am finding that to be true! Mine had to miss basketball practice last week because they fooled around all day and their work was not done.

 

He is big on saying things one time and keeping your emotions out of it. For me, that is so hard. My dc's know exactly the things that set me off. I am trying to type this right now and they are driving me nuts with interruptions. I see them daydreaming or fooling around and I know they could not possibly be doing a good job of their school work. However, the hardest thing for me is keeping my big mouth shut!! I find if I am constantly saying something back, they tune me out as nagging. I always picture myself to them as the teacher on the Charlie Brown shows, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

 

My two oldest are not refusing my dh and I's requests as your children are but they are, let's just say, less than diligent. They have been doing their work and then, when I give them a quiz or test they completely bomb it. It's as though they have never seen the information before. Now, before I get the reply saying I can't expect them to do it on their own, I don't. I go over their math for at least one hour every day, review vocab., spelling, grammar, science, etc. each day to make sure they are understanding. They have the DVD's, CD's, Multimedia CD's, etc. to help them learn. The missing ingredient is that they have not come to the point of realizing that they must be engaged when we are going over something, that they must check to figure out what they missed and they WILL have to sit alone and memorize some things.

 

As you can tell, I bought this book because I want them to face the consequences. My dh and I sat down and explained to them the other day that they have a right to fail. If they continue at their current pace, they will fail because we cannot keep them up their whole life. We have also listed the colleges they aspire to attend and my dh (he is more direct than I am) told them he would sit with them after this year and cross out the ones they will be ineligible to attend because they played around.

 

I know this might sound harsh but, as Americans, we do have a chance at the American dream but we cannot feel "Entitled" to anything. I am having a REALLY hard time keeping my emotions out of the picture and letting the consequences take effect. I feel your pain and would really recommend this book to you. Hopefully you will find a way to the other side of this soon.

[Citrusheights5]

Thank you for all the responses. I know that it is due to my parenting ways, and that I have let it go too far... I really needed to hear a lot of this, and refresh the brain..

 

I am not trying to get into an "excuse game" again I know it is my responsibility, but it is just sooooooooo hard, when their friends have NO CHORES. Most of the children here are coddled, and given any and everything they want.. To the point when they have broken things, and most will say that it is ok, and they are just being children.. So I have let things slide that I should not have, and now am seeing the consequences of that.

 

It is a hard line to draw, because my children do say "yes mom", but then continue to complain as they are doing said chore... It is hard- because in their world they are doing said chore, which is more than anyone else is doing.. And I also buy into this- by allowing them to complain.. My children hear the word NO at least 20 times more than their peers, and so in my attempt to make them more normal----- I have made them more normal.

 

I need to realize that I cannot have them both ways, and seeing as I am fed up with their behavior- I know which way I want it.. Now to act on it.

 

The discipline responses help tremendously, because I needed advice on appropriate responses.

 

 

I thank you all and my DH also, who has read all the posts excited about all the things we can do to change these behaviors..

[mrsdash]

Good for you and just keep trying to see the big picture. They will come out of this with a stronger character and a better work ethic than these other kids. Don't be afraid to be "the bad guy"...they WILL respect you in the end, as adults...when they are parents. One day they will see things properly and you won't have to hear "how could you let us do that?" "why didn't you teach us better than that?". You and your husband will be able to say "we know we did the right thing, regardless of the social obstacles" and you will sleep better :)

[sheryl]

This is the route to go. I'm not necessarily a Dr. Phil fan and I really hardly ever watch tv anymore. But, he had a show about this which was interesting.

 

After you and your dh talk about how far you want to take this, next talk your kids who are involved in this behavior. Start removing privileges, things, events from their life. Dr. P guests removed everything but a bed in the kids bedroom. After a period of time (not an hour, not a day), reinstate the least favored item. This shows you have control, mean business and you also don't want to break their spirit, so because of their efforts for the better you reward with something back. If it goes sour again, remove it. It will take a long time I think. They will push you to see if you will be CONSISTENT in your new approach. It may go back and forth many times like a ping pong ball. All the while you praise them for good behavior and tell them OFTEN YOU LOVE THEM! But, that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.

 

They are pretty young to be defying you to this degree. Are they picking it up from tv, or friends? Oh, if they sleep alot then don't they have alot of energy to paint this, fix that, do this, do that.......????

 

HTH. Sorry if it came across too bold.

 

 

Life shuts down. Let them stay in bed. Without food. Don't let them get up. Make them pee in a cup. No phone, tv, books, games.

 

Seriously, I'd be tanning some butts around there.

[Pamela H in Texas]

It is a hard line to draw, because my children do say "yes mom", but then continue to complain

 

My son went through a time like that. I sat him down and explained to him that he can comply cheerfully or comply begrudgingly--that is his choice. However, two things:

 

1) he will find HE feels better if he can decide to do so cheerfully

2) he does not have the right to mess with the peace in the house so if he chooses not to be cheerful, he's to keep that part to himself.

 

Complaining out loud, moping, carrying on in any way is not tolerated. Kids can learn more self-control than that. They can feel whatever they feel (though that is usually a choice they can make). But they don't have the right to make everyone miserable if they are miserable.

 

Another part of this. It is IMPORTANT that you model good behavior on this one. Sometimes parents are really bad about complaining, moaning and groaning, etc regarding their own work. Kids will follow suit.

[Aggie]

I am not trying to get into an "excuse game" again I know it is my responsibility, but it is just sooooooooo hard, when their friends have NO CHORES. Most of the children here are coddled, and given any and everything they want.. To the point when they have broken things, and most will say that it is ok, and they are just being children..

 

 

We live next door to some *very* privileged children, too. Not only are our values different, but our income is, too. I have to remind the dc (and myself) quite often that our lifestyle isn't better or worse, just different. :)

 

Aggie

[Kris]

I am not trying to get into an "excuse game" again I know it is my responsibility, but it is just sooooooooo hard, when their friends have NO CHORES. Most of the children here are coddled, and given any and everything they want.. To the point when they have broken things, and most will say that it is ok, and they are just being children.. So I have let things slide that I should not have, and now am seeing the consequences of that.

 

I hear you! I thought my son was making it up when he told me his school friends had no responsibilities whatsoever. I really did. But it turned out to be true! Here, in the middle of "The Heartland" -- they don't even have to take out the trash? :confused:

 

He used to bring it up occasionally, and I just asked him, "Do you really think Mom and Dad are doing them any favors?" He admitted recently he just gave me the "right answer" at the time, but that he understands now. "Those guys will have to eat off paper plates, 'cause they don't even know how to do dishes!" :lol:

 

It *is* hard, no doubt about it. Good luck! :)