High School Track Questions

[omd21]

Hello!

 

DD13 is an advanced rising 8th grader who has been doing high school level work for the past two years.

 

Her sights are set on a competitive school. She wants to major in science. Up to several months ago, I thought we would do the majority of her AP classes through PA Homeschoolers with some classes at a local university to prove success outside of the home environment.

 

However, we recently moved to a new state. 99% of homeschooled kids in our new city complete high school by dual enrollment at a community college. It is very attractive because they graduate with their high school diploma and an AA degree for free. We have explored three different homeschool groups and every single kid we've met has gone the CC route. After high school, they go on to a normal college for only two years.

 

My question is, since DD wants to go to a selective college out of state, are AP classes still the most desirable, or is dual enrollment seen more favorably by admission officers?

 

I'm getting a lot of pressure from all the other mom / friends we've met who insist that colleges prefer the dual enrollment program and AP's are not as important as "real college classes".

 

Thoughts please?

Edited February 18, 2016 by odalysmd21

[regentrude]

If the goal is selective colleges:

DE is fine, but getting an Associates is not.

Transfer acceptance rates are even lower than regular freshmen acceptance rates; schools that admit 6% of freshmen applicants may admit 1-2% of transfer applicants. Sol under no circumstances should the student earn an AA.

 

My DD got admitted to highly selective colleges with a mix of homeschooled at-home classes and DE university classes.

[Lori D.]

… I'm getting a lot of pressure from all the other mom / friends we've met who insist that colleges prefer the dual enrollment program and AP's are not as important as "real college classes".

 

As much as possible, I would try to move away from these types of conversations, as they are not really helpful in determining the pros/cons of all your options and how the different options help/don't help your family meet your DD's specific needs and goals. :)

 

 

… Her sights are set on a competitive school. She wants to major in science…  I thought we would do the majority of her AP classes through PA Homeschoolers with some classes at a local university to prove success outside of the home environment...

 

...99% of homeschooled kids in our new city complete high school by dual enrollment at a community college. It is very attractive because they graduate with their high school diploma and an AA degree for free...

 

… My question is, since DD wants to go to a selective college out of state, are AP classes still the most desirable, or is dual enrollment seen more favorably by admission officers?

 

I don't think it's so much a matter of which option is more desirable for the college admission offices, but rather, which colleges have credit transfer policies and/or AP credit policies that best fit your DD's future degree program goals.

 

You will need to check the transfer credit and dual enrollment policies for each specific university that DD is considering applying to. Some colleges widely accept dual enrollment credits. Some colleges accept dual enrollment towards a degree program from only certain schools. Some colleges accept only a few specific credits. And some colleges -- esp. selective/competitive/top tier colleges -- do not transfer any dual enrollment credits towards their degree programs, but count those credits as "electives".

 

Also, as the previous poster mentioned, some universities will only accept a student with an AA degree as a *transfer* student, not as a freshman (even if the AA was earned as dual enrollment while still a high school student) -- which may lower the student's changes at being accepted into the university, but also could affect how much merit aid your DD would be eligible for, as the majority of merit aid is awarded to freshmen, not transfer students. And the majority of freshman scholarships are for larger amounts and are renewable, while the majority of transfer scholarships are smaller and are often one-time awards.

 

AP classes are more widely accepted across the board, and esp. by selective/competitive/top tier colleges. Again, you must look at the specific policy for each college you are interested in to know WHICH AP tests they accept, and what score is required in order for the school to award college credit.

 

Also, be aware that colleges change their policies from time to time, so what you discover now, while DD is in 8th grade, may NOT be the same policies about dual enrollment and transfer credits or AP credits when she is in 10th grade, or 12th grade.

 

Free is a very attractive pro. And if the specific universities that DD is interested in accept all of the credits from an AA as transfer credits toward the science degree program, that is a very big pro. :)

 

Some cons to this would be if the universities don't accept the dual enrollment credits to transfer toward a degree, and esp, if the specific degree program at the university is scheduled to take 4 years. That is more common with Engineering degrees, but many other types of degrees at various universities are now scheduling the degree so that some of the required pre-requisite courses in the core area of study must be taken in the freshman and sophomore years of college in order to be ready to take the next level of required courses in the junior year, which in turn are pre-requisites for courses only offered in the senior year… The upshot is that the student ends up "locked" into 4 years at the university due to when/how the requisite courses for the specific degree are offered.

 

So in addition to checking out the specific credit policies of the universities that DD is interested in, also be checking out the specific degree programs that DD would be interested in, and the list of courses required to complete those degrees and how they are scheduled -- they may be scheduled in such a way that 2 years of dual enrollment will end up NOT shaving off any time towards a specific 4-year degree.

 

 

... DD wants to go to a selective college out of state...

 

I strongly recommend NOT "putting all your eggs in one basket", but rather, even now, you and DD be exploring other universities so that your DD will ultimately be applying for 3-6 universities when the time comes. Selective colleges have low acceptance rates, and even if your DD has top test scores and GPA, there is NO guarantee that the selective college will think that she is the best fit for them and admit her. So you absolutely need to have *several* schools lined up that DD would be happy attending.

 

By the time DD is ready to apply for college, she will likely have a degree program she is interested in, and that may be the biggest factor in helping DD decide which colleges to apply for -- which schools have the departments, programs, professors, internships, and other opportunities, that best fit DD's needs and interests, and that will best help her reach her career goals.

 

Also realize that these different schools your DD decides on may have different policies re: dual enrollment and transfer credits, as well as different amounts of financial aid they can award.

 

 

DD13 is an advanced rising 8th grader who has been doing high school level work for the past two years...

 

Just a side thought to your original question… Since DD is advanced and being doing high school level work for the past 2 years, if that is across the board in all subjects, you might consider starting to keep records now and count the coursework of the last 1-2 years as the first year of high school (9th grade), and move into 10th grade next year (rather than 8th grade), and either have DD graduate early, or have her complete high school early and do 2 years of free dual enrollment for the AA degree -- so that she is not only not being held back from working at her advanced level, but is also accruing the credits she has earned.

 

 

BEST of luck as you walk through these "administrative" and "college counselor" questions and concerns of homeschooling! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Lori D.

[TechWife]

If the goal is selective colleges:

DE is fine, but getting an Associates is not.

Transfer acceptance rates are even lower than regular freshmen acceptance rates; schools that admit 6% of freshmen applicants may admit 1-2% of transfer applicants. Sol under no circumstances should the student earn an AA.

 

My DD got admitted to highly selective colleges with a mix of homeschooled at-home classes and DE university classes.

For our state universities, students who take DE classes aren't considered transfer students, even if they have completed an AA. Check with the universities that she has expressed an interest in to see how they manage DE students.

[plansrme]

Our experience is that CC classes are not as challenging as good AP classes.  I would think highly selective colleges would make the same assumption unless they have a lot of experience with a particular CC system and know otherwise.  I am sure there are exceptions, but admission to highly selective colleges is all about perception.  Also, FWIW, I have heard several times that U.Ga., which is a Big State U but surprisingly selective because of the lottery-funded scholarship, explicitly says they prefer APs to DE classes from the students local CC.  DE classes at a more selective university would, I assume, be perceived more favorably than those from CC.  Besides, if "everyone" is doing DE at the CC for their last two years of high school, the CC is offering high school level work, by definition.

[Melissa B]

Could you do DE at a nearby university rather than a CC?

[G5052]

It's a big YMMV issue.

 

The local community college classes here are widely respected because we teach from the same goals-and-objectives as the 4-year state schools. They have many transfer agreements to 4-year schools. One of the schools I've worked for is considered nationally-ranked community college and is widely recognized because it is one of the largest in the U.S. I've had dual enrollment students who got into Ivy League schools who did only dual enrollment, no AP's. I know because I wrote recommendation letters, and the parents let me know where they ended up. They didn't get credits, but it counted as a rigorous program.

 

But community college close to where I grew up? AP's are better choice there.

 

And ignore the pressure from other moms. Unless they've done what you want to do, pass the bean dip. In my circles, dual enrollment is a biggie too with many using that for most if not all of the last two years of college. As good as the community college is, I've seen the negatives of dual enrollment. It's an adult environment with negative peer pressure.

 

FWIW a local vet's daughter was homeschooled, and she did the 2-year degree/high school diploma track. She wanted to ultimately join the family business and knew exactly which schools she wanted. Her parents knew that they would get quality science at the community college that they couldn't replicate while running a busy vet practice. So she did that, transferred to a competitive school and completed vet school, which is also hard to get into. She worked for several years at another practice in another state, and then recently joined the family business. So certainly in a case like that with focused goals and a mature student, it can also be a great thing.

Edited February 19, 2016 by G5052

[Pawz4me]

For our state universities, students who take DE classes aren't considered transfer students, even if they have completed an AA. Check with the universities that she has expressed an interest in to see how they manage DE students.

 

Agreed.  Youngest DS is on track to earn his AS before he graduates from high school.  Every university we've contacted so far (which includes both public and private schools) has said he will be considered a freshman for admission and scholarship purposes.

[JanetC]

I live in a state with free DE at the CC's for juniors and seniors. The in-person co-op opportunities are slim for that age group as a result. However, many students are just taking the CC classes as part of their homeschool diplomas, rather than sticking rigidly to the courses required for the AA. (It's a pretty tough path to the AA - full course load every quarter, and depending on which transfer degree, possibly very little room for electives or "fun" classes.)

 

Only a minority actually get a degree out of it, and others are doing something along your original plan: Getting some outside courses to supplement their homeschool records, and getting a homeschool diploma signed by the parent.

 

So, you don't have to change your original plan if you don't want to. Compare the DE classes with the PA Homeschoolers ones and take the path that makes most sense for your DD.

 

It will not hurt her to do her own thing if the AA path is not right for her.

[GoodGrief]

It really depends on your priorities for your homeschool. We've done both DE and APs.

 

APs through PA Homeschoolers will offer a more flexible schedule than taking classes through the CC or local university (unless you are talking online university classes.)

 

Some kids have a hard time being motivated in online classes and do better with the "live" experience. That was certainly true for one of mine.

 

A risk of DE is that the grades earned during high school will follow the student throughout college. Also, if a class isn't working out, you are more limited in your timing to drop the class and change to something else. After the college's deadline to drop, there will be some sort of record of the class.

 

I don't personally see the value of the AA, unless it is necessary to a specific job the student wants, that doesn't require a bachelor's degree.

 

PA Homeschoolers may be more expensive than DE depending on the state. That was not true in our case though.

 

I've seen no evidence during our college app journey (I'm on my second kid now; both had DE, only one has APs) that the colleges prefer DE to AP classes. However, it might be useful for homeschoolers to, like you said above, prove competency in a building-based classroom. It just depends on the college and who is reading the app.

 

For what it's worth, both my kids were admitted to selective colleges (and one to an Ivy League school.)

 

 

[TechWife]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread is that colleges approach AP exams and DE courses in different ways when it comes to actually giving credit for the classes taken. This is a different issue than admission, but it needs to be taken into consideration if you want to use the credit earned in high school for college credit. 

 

Universities have a minimum score for AP exams in order to grant credit at their university. I've not heard of a university accepting a score lower than a 5. Some will take a 5 or 6, some will only take 6. Some universities limit the number of course they will give credit for - a student might take numerous AP exams and do well on them, only to be told that the university will only take 2 or 3 of them. Universities might not give credit for an AP exam in the student's major, either. 

 

DE is an entirely different animal and varies widely. Some universities have a list of institutions that they will transfer DE credits from, others approach it by approving only certain courses taken at certain institutions. Still others will not transfer any credits. I'm sure there are many more approaches as well.  

[rbk mama]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread is that colleges approach AP exams and DE courses in different ways when it comes to actually giving credit for the classes taken. This is a different issue than admission, but it needs to be taken into consideration if you want to use the credit earned in high school for college credit. 

 

Universities have a minimum score for AP exams in order to grant credit at their university. I've not heard of a university accepting a score lower than a 5. Some will take a 5 or 6, some will only take 6. Some universities limit the number of course they will give credit for - a student might take numerous AP exams and do well on them, only to be told that the university will only take 2 or 3 of them. Universities might not give credit for an AP exam in the student's major, either. 

 

DE is an entirely different animal and varies widely. Some universities have a list of institutions that they will transfer DE credits from, others approach it by approving only certain courses taken at certain institutions. Still others will not transfer any credits. I'm sure there are many more approaches as well.  

 

University of Michigan (College of Literature, Science, and Arts) gives credit for 3s, 4s,  and 5s (highest score is 5), depending on the particular test.

 

http://admissions.umich.edu/apply/freshmen-applicants/ap-ib-credit#LSA

[GoodGrief]

It's fairly common for colleges that accept AP credits to do so for scores of 3-5 (AP does not give scores of 6.) Sometimes a lower score will mean the credit is for a lower level class.

 

Not all colleges accept AP credits, but not all colleges accept DE/transfer credits either.

[mathmarm]

 

Universities have a minimum score for AP exams in order to grant credit at their university. I've not heard of a university accepting a score lower than a 5. Some will take a 5 or 6, some will only take 6. Some universities limit the number of course they will give credit for - a student might take numerous AP exams and do well on them, only to be told that the university will only take 2 or 3 of them. Universities might not give credit for an AP exam in the student's major, either.

 

AP Exams are scored 1-5. As far as I know there is no score of 6.

I know of many universities that give credit for 3s, 4d and Ofcourse 5s on AP exams

[plansrme]

And let's keep in mind that the OP is asking about admissions, not credit. A very select college (Ivies, for example) is unlikely to give credit for either APs or CC DE classes, but there IS likely to be a difference in their perception of difficulty.

[Lori D.]

And let's keep in mind that the OP is asking about admissions, not credit...

 

Agree. :)

 

However… ;) Just tossing in that should anyone *want* to know whether or not a specific university grants credit for AP test scores, you can look for the online catalog for that university, which usually has a chart that lists all of the AP tests, and what score is required for the university to grant credit, AND what specific course, or type of elective, the university awards credit for that score.

 

An even faster way to find that chart for the specific university is to just do an online search for "AP credit, __(name of university)__". So, for example, that search for Standford turned up this chart.

[wapiti]

.

Edited September 15, 2016 by wapiti

[Luckymama]

Mind if I piggyback on here? I have a related question. We need to decide between two high schools in the coming months for my ds13s. One, which dd14 attends, is a well-regarded private school with many AP choices. Dual enrollment at the associated 4-yr university only comes into play when the student needs to go beyond that (the high school already offers calc 3).

 

The other school, which is free (charter), has lean but interesting offerings for engineering, comp sci, etc. However, for APs, the course catalog identifies most of the AP courses as Concurrent Enrollment, where the course is taught by a CC instructor on the high school campus and the AP exam is taken at the end. I am guessing there are financial reasons for setting up the courses this way. Weird hybrid? Are there downsides to this approach?

 

ETA, I'm wondering for selective college admissions purposes. Credit isn't a concern. The private school is clearly superior but for cost. I need to weigh quality and course selection aspects against the cost.

Referring to the bolded, I would ask:

--are these approved AP courses? (You can check yourself by going to the AP Course Ledger and searching for the name of the school.)

--will the class be called AP on the transcript or will it be marked as Concurrent Enrollment instead?

--what percentage of students for AP Course X pass (score at least. 3)? Even better, what percentage score a 4 and score a 5? You can see how the school's stats compare with the national stats for that particular course.

--are the classes offered every year or every other year or just when someone wants to teach it?

 

My main concern would be how well something taught by a CC instructor matches up to what is required to do well on an AP exam.

[wapiti]

Thanks, Luckymama, those are great questions!

[omd21]

This is great, ladies! Thank you for giving me so much to think about. The CC in question is Miami-Dade College, which I believe is a top ranking CC. I wonder if it's perceived that way by selective schools outside of the state of FL. DD knows she wants to go out of state. Probably somewhere on the East Coast or U of Chicago where we have family.

 

I might call a few schools and ask which they prefer. We are going to need merit aid/ scholarships if she wants to attend out of state so that's a priority as well.

[cave canem]

I thought this was a question about participating in public high school sports.

[Melissa B]

This is great, ladies! Thank you for giving me so much to think about. The CC in question is Miami-Dade College, which I believe is a top ranking CC. I wonder if it's perceived that way by selective schools outside of the state of FL. DD knows she wants to go out of state. Probably somewhere on the East Coast or U of Chicago where we have family.

 

I might call a few schools and ask which they prefer. We are going to need merit aid/ scholarships if she wants to attend out of state so that's a priority as well.

 

Could you dual enroll at FIU? I believe they are a tier-1 research university.

[omd21]

Yes, FIU and UM are both options that we are considering. Miami-Dade college is the route everyone takes because of the free AA degree.

[MarkT]

Yes, FIU and UM are both options that we are considering. Miami-Dade college is the route everyone takes because of the free AA degree.

 

https://colleges.niche.com/miami-dade-college/

 

Niche is a good site for college comparisons.

[Melissa B]

Yes, FIU and UM are both options that we are considering. Miami-Dade college is the route everyone takes because of the free AA degree.

 

FIU should also be free. UM would likely be expensive.