The uses of DE - exploring passions vs. core subjects/verification of achievement?

[Chrysalis Academy]

Can we talk about dual enrollment?  We have an excellent JC nearby, and dd can start taking classes there at 14. It has been my intention to use the JC heavily during high school for outsourcing, verification of achievement level, and potentially even to collect transfer credits to the UC system, if dd decides to go that route.  It is a more appealing option to me for a variety of reasons than the heavy AP/SAT2 testing route, and it's less expensive than many online options.  I had assumed that we would use this for core subjects I didn't feel like I could do justice to at home.

 

However, it seems in thinking about it more, and talking to dd, that it might be better to use the JC for electives, passions, things we really *can't* do at home, like Theater Arts and Equine Science.  Dd could easily fill up her time/quota of JC classes taking interesting electives in her areas of passion.

 

I guess my question is this - if she takes classes mostly in her interest areas, and does well, will this provide the kind of mommy-grade verification that I'm looking for? Or do I still need to be looking for some form of outside verification in each subject area?

 

I'm interested in hearing how people who have done DE have used JC/CCs, and what role it has played in your student's high school experience.

[G5052]

We did both. It really just depends on what is available and what your goals are. 

 

One of mine did Spanish and several IT classes.

 

My next one is talking about drawing, Spanish, and a basic computer literacy course.

 

Keep in mind that art can be one that you have to watch for adult content. One school I work for uses n*** models even in the basic drawing classes. That might be too much for a dual enrollment student.

[marbel]

My daughter is in her 2nd year doing dual enrollment.   She was born with a pencil in her hand, and has always wanted to study art.  As homeschoolers in an area where homeschooling is weird, her opportunities were limited.  So, her first class at CC was the basic drawing class.   Her second semester she took the next drawing class, and Comp 101 to get that over with.  This semester she is just taking one class, introduction to theater, though she had also signed up for Spanish, but the class was cancelled and the other offerings were at inconvenient times for us.

 

So, I guess you could say we are mostly doing it to follow her passions but with an eye to future requirements. She is a junior this year. 

 

It has worked out well for us.  She took the PSAT as a sophomore; as expected, her math score was low so she is not a candidate for NMS, so she won't take it this year - with no Saturday testing date she would have to skip her CC class and there seems no point in that.  She will take the SAT or ACT later this year, but that will probably be all the testing she'll do. 

 

It has been a great experience for her so far. She is fitting in well and enjoying these classes she never got to fully explore as a homeschooler. 

 

As for your question of whether you will need to seek outside verification... I guess that depends on her future plans.  For my daughter, building a portfolio of work is probably most important (along with figuring out an actual way to make a living with an art degree but that's a whole 'nother topic).  I have known homeschoolers who went on to higher education/good careers without having any APs, SAT subject tests, etc.   But there are probably others who can answer part that better than I.

[katilac]

That depends on what you mean by 'mostly' taking electives. I don't think that less then 4-6 solidly academic classes is going to accomplish your goal. 

 

How many classes can she take per year or semester? 

[regentrude]

We have done DE, but for the purpose of learning things I cannot teach at home and satisfying my DD's desire for interaction with classmates and live instructors - not for collecting college credits (none of DD's 30+ credits transfer). She has chosen areas she is passionate about, but these were all academic subjects where we have the outside validation as a bonus.

If your DD uses the DE for mainly enrichment/elective classes, I do not think that serves as a validation of mommy grades in core subjects. It shows she can function in a classroom and work in a group, things admissions officials sometimes wish to see from homeschoolers. But I would seek out other means of verifying a few of her academic subjects through standardized testing. No need to do so in every subject, but a few data points can't hurt - if she is interested in attending a selective school. If she just wants to apply to the public state U, no need for that.

[Luckymama]

So are you thinking English/math/science/history or social science/foreign language at home (5 classes) plus these other electives at the JC? Or are you thinking of replacing one of the five core subjects with its JC alternative plus a "fun" elective?

 

Are there California-specific rules the rest of us don't know concerning JC-to-UC transfer?

 

(And what the heck is a junior college anyway? How does that differ from a CC? Do CA CCs offer bachelor degrees? I am confuddled lol)

 

Dd is just doing one class (foreign language) at the university. It is serving both as verification of her abilities and as a passion outlet. Dd's "electives" are all quite academic in the traditional sense.

[katilac]

To clarify my last post, I mean 4-6 academic classes overall, not per year! 

 

dd is in the midst of applying to college, and there is a wide variance on what schools want - 2 SAT subject tests is pretty common, 4 is not unusual, and one school wants 8!! 

 

The reason I say 4-6 academic classes is because I think it's more likely that schools will accept that higher number in place of 2 - 4 subject tests. 

 

It's a bit of a gamble in the sense that schools that specify subject tests may or may not accept other verification in their place. dd isn't set on any one school, so it wouldn't break her heart if someone said her DE credit doesn't check the box. Just research some schools early enough, like junior year, to know if she's willing to take the chance. 

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

So are you thinking English/math/science/history or social science/foreign language at home (5 classes) plus these other electives at the JC? Or are you thinking of replacing one of the five core subjects with its JC alternative plus a "fun" elective?

 

Are there California-specific rules the rest of us don't know concerning JC-to-UC transfer?

 

(And what the heck is a junior college anyway? How does that differ from a CC? Do CA CCs offer bachelor degrees? I am confuddled lol)

 

Dd is just doing one class (foreign language) at the university. It is serving both as verification of her abilities and as a passion outlet. Dd's "electives" are all quite academic in the traditional sense.

 

JC is junior college. It's what CC - community college - is called, at least in some parts of CA.  The reason I tend to use it is that on this forum, CC makes me think Christian Content!  

 

To answer your first question, I'm considering both options. She will definitely do all the core classes each year, whether she does them at home or replaces an at-home class with the CC alternative.  But I don't see us having her do more than 1 or 2 CC classes each semester, at least until she is a junior or senior.  So the question really boils down to do we use that one or two classes to hit one of the 5 required classes, or does she do the 5 at home and use the CC for electives that can't be done at home?

 

What's different about CA is the pesky a-g requirements for the UC system.  As a homeschooler, none of her classes will be a-g, so in order to get around that, she needs either a SAT2, AP, or CC class in each of the required areas.  If we don't do the CC classes in the core areas, then she will need to do more testing if she wants to go to a UC school  Or, she could just get her first two years out of the way at the CC and transfer to a UC as a junior, under the CC-to-UC transfer agreement.

[Chrysalis Academy]

To clarify my last post, I mean 4-6 academic classes overall, not per year! 

 

dd is in the midst of applying to college, and there is a wide variance on what schools want - 2 SAT subject tests is pretty common, 4 is not unusual, and one school wants 8!! 

 

The reason I say 4-6 academic classes is because I think it's more likely that schools will accept that higher number in place of 2 - 4 subject tests. 

 

It's a bit of a gamble in the sense that schools that specify subject tests may or may not accept other verification in their place. dd isn't set on any one school, so it wouldn't break her heart if someone said her DE credit doesn't check the box. Just research some schools early enough, like junior year, to know if she's willing to take the chance. 

 

Just making sure I understand correctly - you are saying you think it's a good idea to have 4-6 solid academic classes at the cc over the course of her 4 years of high school.  I don't disagree at all, and think we could accomplish that mostly in her last two years, taking one or two solid academic classes at the cc each semester.

 

Maybe the thing to do is to let her take fun electives at the cc in her first two years of high school, and save the more academic classes for later.  That could be good for a lot of reasons - letting her get used to college classes, the pace, expectations etc. in classes that she is passionate about, and for which grades would have less impact, at least theoretically, on her future prospects.

[wapiti]

dd is in the midst of applying to college, and there is a wide variance on what schools want - 2 SAT subject tests is pretty common, 4 is not unusual, and one school wants 8!! 

 

I hadn't heard of any schools, even selective ones, asking for more than two subject tests.  Just so that I may educate myself in these matters, are the schools asking for more than two directing that request specifically at homeschoolers?  What sorts of schools are they?  (My dd isn't homeschooling but I'd be hard-pressed to come up with 8 SAT subject tests in different subjects that would make sense for her to take; she will hopefully have a number of APs)

[Melissa B]

I hadn't heard of any schools, even selective ones, asking for more than two subject tests.  Just so that I may educate myself in these matters, are the schools asking for more than two directing that request specifically at homeschoolers?  What sorts of schools are they?  (My dd isn't homeschooling but I'd be hard-pressed to come up with 8 SAT subject tests in different subjects that would make sense for her to take; she will hopefully have a number of APs)

 

I know UF requires 4 subject tests plus the SAT or ACT w/writing (from homeschoolers only.)

 

Math (Level 2)

Science

Social Science

Foreign Language

 

Lots of local homeschoolers do not apply to UF for that reason. You can also meet this requirement with DE classes, which is what we chose to do.

[brookspr]

Northwestern also asks for 3 subject tests in addition to SAT/ACT scores. This is specifically for homeschooled students.

[Kareni]

I hadn't heard of any schools, even selective ones, asking for more than two subject tests.  Just so that I may educate myself in these matters, are the schools asking for more than two directing that request specifically at homeschoolers? 

 

At least a couple of the ten colleges to which my daughter applied required three SAT subject test scores from ALL applicants.

 

 

 

 

I'm interested in hearing how people who have done DE have used JC/CCs, and what role it has played in your student's high school experience.

 

 

My daughter took a variety of classes at the local community college as an 11th and 12th grader.  She did primarily academic classes but also took drawing, art history, and archery.  Our local community college operates on a quarter system.  She took six quarters of English (three composition classes and three literature classes), College Algebra, Trigonometry, three quarters of Geology, and a quarter of Environmental Science.  This was in addition to several AP courses, Latin, Ancient Greek, and what have you that she was doing at our local homeschooling resource center at the same time.

 

For my daughter, classes at the community college were not taken with the idea that the credits would transfer but rather to augment her high school studies.  She had a serious desire to study Geology, for example, and went on to minor in that area in college.  Latin and Ancient Greek not offered at the community college, so she studied those elsewhere.  (And went on to major in Latin at college.)

 

My daughter's experiences at the community college were almost all positive -- she had good to excellent instructors.  She was a mature sixteen year old when she began attending as an 11th grader and did not stand out to her classmates as being young.  We are also not conservative in any way so she was not discomforted by adult content in readings or class discussion (and, yes, there was some) nor by age of the earth content in science classes.

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

 

[quark]

Can we talk about dual enrollment?  We have an excellent JC nearby, and dd can start taking classes there at 14. It has been my intention to use the JC heavily during high school for outsourcing, verification of achievement level, and potentially even to collect transfer credits to the UC system, if dd decides to go that route.  It is a more appealing option to me for a variety of reasons than the heavy AP/SAT2 testing route, and it's less expensive than many online options.  I had assumed that we would use this for core subjects I didn't feel like I could do justice to at home.

 

Agree with you. we don't want to take the heavy testing route either. We are using CC for core subjects and electives (except this semester, kiddo threw a curveball at me by refusing to take math there anymore).

 

However, it seems in thinking about it more, and talking to dd, that it might be better to use the JC for electives, passions, things we really *can't* do at home, like Theater Arts and Equine Science.  Dd could easily fill up her time/quota of JC classes taking interesting electives in her areas of passion.

 

Yes, sounds good. You want to be careful though because sometimes electives can be busy too and you will have to decide how to help her manage her time best. E.g. kiddo's 1 unit and 2 unit jazz classes have required almost as much work if not more than his 3 unit humanities class.

 

I guess my question is this - if she takes classes mostly in her interest areas, and does well, will this provide the kind of mommy-grade verification that I'm looking for? Or do I still need to be looking for some form of outside verification in each subject area?

 

My info is strictly based on what a college counselor advised and strictly for UC (we are considering Berkeley). UCs are still comparing students from so many different educational backgrounds so despite the CC classes being a-g (core classes) they might still want to see SAT subject tests across main core subjects. I was advised to think about 4-5 subject tests at minimum. We are talking about California. This is the norm now (is what she advised). This is if she is applying to UC as a freshman. As a transfer, it won't be as essential (kiddo is considering transfer app, but might take 2-3 SAT subject tests anyway just to cover his bases and keep options open until the very last minute).

 

I'm interested in hearing how people who have done DE have used JC/CCs, and what role it has played in your student's high school experience.

 

Well, for one thing, I don't worry about validation anymore. There is a sense of "official"ness now when we look at his unofficial transcript online. There's the chance to "get some requirements out of the way" so that he can focus on things that matter to him, the semester system makes this easy. There is no "social" component unless your student joins clubs or is very extroverted. Mine just joined an honors club and is slowly coming out of his shy shell that way.

 

You want to be careful about transfer applications though. If that's the plan, and depending on the year/age that she wants to apply, it's a good idea to finish up the general ed and major requirements early and take the time later to focus on electives. It all depends on the goals. We also just heard that if a student takes a concurrent enrollment core class at one of the UCs as a full time CC student (full time = to the CC, you plan to transfer), those units will also count towards the transfer.

 

You are probably already aware...if she goes to CC without enrolling full time (through CHSPE for example), she will have the lowest priority to register for classes e.g. about a week or 2 at most before class starts. Some classes, especially cores, and the very popular electives, fill up very, very quickly these days.

[Matryoshka]

Dd has used CC for a combination of both. 

 

I'd say Physics and English classes have been to fulfill requirements.

The other classes have been more interest-based: Anthropology, Criminal Justice and Arabic. 

 

 

[Matryoshka]

I hadn't heard of any schools, even selective ones, asking for more than two subject tests.  Just so that I may educate myself in these matters, are the schools asking for more than two directing that request specifically at homeschoolers?  What sorts of schools are they?  (My dd isn't homeschooling but I'd be hard-pressed to come up with 8 SAT subject tests in different subjects that would make sense for her to take; she will hopefully have a number of APs)

 

Dd took two SAT subject tests, but she was sick the day of the tests and didn't do all that well (scores in 500's).  I wanted her to try a re-do this fall, but she does.not.want.to.  Fortunately she did reasonably well on the ACT with writing, so for schools that will take that in place of SAT2s she'll be fine.  Other than that, she'd have to skip schools that require them.

 

She has 3 APs (two with 4/5), and will have 30+ CC credits, but yeah, some schools really want those SAT2s... :confused1:

[quark]

Just making sure I understand correctly - you are saying you think it's a good idea to have 4-6 solid academic classes at the cc over the course of her 4 years of high school.  I don't disagree at all, and think we could accomplish that mostly in her last two years, taking one or two solid academic classes at the cc each semester.

 

Maybe the thing to do is to let her take fun electives at the cc in her first two years of high school, and save the more academic classes for later.  That could be good for a lot of reasons - letting her get used to college classes, the pace, expectations etc. in classes that she is passionate about, and for which grades would have less impact, at least theoretically, on her future prospects.

 

All CC-related grades are sent to UC/ other unis in official CC transcript. You probably already know that. Just wanted to add this in case you didn't.

[quark]

I'm interested in hearing how people who have done DE have used JC/CCs, and what role it has played in your student's high school experience.

 

Expanding on this a little more. It will depend on each kid...we are not very socially active so for kiddo:

1. A lot of blossoming and becoming independent. He is naturally a pacifist, and a homebody and just very shy these days (wasn't this way when he was younger). But being on campus and having to navigate things himself has really helped him stand on his own 2 feet, speak up, ask questions and learn to use eye contact.
2. After some mistakes and scaffolding at home (thank you Google calendar!), he is very able now to manage his time well. There is a lot of difference from the semester he began to his current semester and I see him growing more and more, every week or so, aware of himself and his need to be on the ball.
3. Like I said, there is no social component because he is obviously younger and kind of aloof, preferring to keep his attention for studies and his profs over classmates and social stuff. But there are opportunities on campus...he can choose avenues he is comfortable with and grow socially that way. There is no social one size fits all (although academically that still happens) and it's great for him that there is such a wide variety of ages. He doesn't really stand out either and i don't think it's just because he is tall...CC students just have more on their minds to deal with than that gawky, young-looking kid over there. He likes that he can just blend in that way. And he can be geeky and not be treated like an outcast.
4. The clubs, the ability to participate in their running, the ability to participate in CC-related contests, activities, etc is also something he is just learning to do. He is getting a small taste of B&M school life this way.
5. I think the best thing is the choice and access to profs (his physics profs are PhDs). The catalog is a buffet of sorts and he now knows how to choose instructors, juggle the schedule, figure out how to education plan, realize the importance of office hours, mini simulation of uni life etc.
6. Cons: less flexibility and creativity of lessons/ materials...if I could homeschool math and science for example, I know I would want to do more than what the CC offers...but we try to manage this by choosing fewer subjects and enriching the CC lessons with readings and explorations at home.

[katilac]

Just making sure I understand correctly - you are saying you think it's a good idea to have 4-6 solid academic classes at the cc over the course of her 4 years of high school.  I don't disagree at all, and think we could accomplish that mostly in her last two years, taking one or two solid academic classes at the cc each semester.

 

 

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. 

 

I hadn't heard of any schools, even selective ones, asking for more than two subject tests.  Just so that I may educate myself in these matters, are the schools asking for more than two directing that request specifically at homeschoolers?  What sorts of schools are they?  (My dd isn't homeschooling but I'd be hard-pressed to come up with 8 SAT subject tests in different subjects that would make sense for her to take; she will hopefully have a number of APs)

 

Washington and Lee recommends 2 for schooled students and 5 for homeschoolers. Mercer does not mention them for schooled students but requires 8 for homeschoolers (they specify that it can be a mix of AP and subject tests). Yes, the higher numbers are aimed at homeschoolers ime. 

 

I've heard of some schools being fine with a strong transcript that is missing some 'requirements,' and I've heard of other schools that are very bureaucratic about it (won't accept APs or even university classes in place of subject tests). 

[ktgrok]

 

Maybe the thing to do is to let her take fun electives at the cc in her first two years of high school, and save the more academic classes for later.  That could be good for a lot of reasons - letting her get used to college classes, the pace, expectations etc. in classes that she is passionate about, and for which grades would have less impact, at least theoretically, on her future prospects.

 

That's exactly what we are doing. One course a semster now, for 10th grade, in Linux programming, his area of interest. Then next year two courses per semester, one academic core class and one interest class. Then senior year we will see.