Some kids need to de-school...I think we need to de-piano lessons

[rzberrymom]

Piano lessons have become such a bugaboo in our house. My 10 1/2 year old has been at it for almost 3 years, she has stuck with it and has gone pretty far. But, the love just isn't there anymore. She loves music, she loves her current teacher, but I think the monotony of practice and lessons has become a chore and completely sucked the joy out of it. She used to sit down and teach herself Chopin waltzes for fun, but that never happens anymore.

 

I guess the monotony is a necessary evil, but is there an alternative for a kid? Sort of like an unschooling approach to an instrument? Is it possible to just keep up sight reading and rhythm/counting work on our own, but otherwise just play for fun and joy? No theory, no recitals, just try to find the love again?

 

Or is this just a wall she's hit and we need to push through?

[Tranquility7]

Piano lessons have become such a bugaboo in our house. My 10 1/2 year old has been at it for almost 3 years, she has stuck with it and has gone pretty far. But, the love just isn't there anymore. She loves music, she loves her current teacher, but I think the monotony of practice and lessons has become a chore and completely sucked the joy out of it. She used to sit down and teach herself Chopin waltzes for fun, but that never happens anymore.

 

I guess the monotony is a necessary evil, but is there an alternative for a kid? Sort of like an unschooling approach to an instrument? Is it possible to just keep up sight reading and rhythm/counting work on our own, but otherwise just play for fun and joy? No theory, no recitals, just try to find the love again?

 

Or is this just a wall she's hit and we need to push through

 

We are Suzuki piano people, and I totally know what you mean. I feel like we work hard on Suzuki repertoire, which is pretty much all classical, and it can become drudgery, especially if he is hitting a wall in a piece.

 

My experience with unschooling in music is that progress is not made. YMMV if you have a very naturally musical kiddo, but that is not my situation. It becomes boring and kids quit. What makes piano playing fun is not *having no structure* (unschooling). What makes piano playing fun is *knowing how to play*.

 

So, I would not take a break from lessons, or take a break from practice. But I definitely think you can take a break from theory and recitals, and I would change up what she is learning in lessons. Perhaps your DD doesn't like what she is currently learning, or perhaps it is too hard for her (thus becomes boring and discouraging to work on). I'd see if your teacher will let you change it up a bit. DS was in a rut by the end of last Spring, so over the summer we have added in some ragtime and jazz, neither of which he has ever played before. The pieces are technically easy for him, so he learns each one in just a week or so. The books we have came with CDs, so he has been listening to the pieces often also. Does your DD ever do that? Buy easy repertoire in good arrangements that include CDs, and see if she might be inspired :-)

 

Btw, the books DS has enjoyed this summer are Martha Mier's "Jazz, Ragtime, and Blues" series. If you buy them, make sure to get the ones with the CDs, as the swing beat can be tricky to get without hearing it first, if you are new to swing (as we were).

 

We also like the Faber Piano Adventures books (ChordTime (level 2) and maybe FunTime (level 3) would probably be about the right level to be easyish for your DD) but I don't know if those come with CDs. But you can find some recordings on youtube (you can sample some of the Mier stuff on yourtube too).

[rzberrymom]

Thank you for the feedback on the unschooling approach. I do have a kid that is highly highly self-motivated, but I think you're right that it's hard for them to keep it up.

 

I would change up what she is learning in lessons. Perhaps your DD doesn't like what she is currently learning, or perhaps it is too hard for her (thus becomes boring and discouraging to work on). I'd see if your teacher will let you change it up a bit.

This is a big part of our problem. The teacher is completely, totally inflexible about repertoire--it's her way or the highway. I've begged and begged to let my kiddo play something she loves, but her teacher is totally inflexible. It's too easy for my kiddo, it's drudgery for her to plow through it day after day after day, we've both let the teacher know, but she's inflexible.

 

But, I can't change her teacher. This is our 3rd teacher--first one was gentle and kind but really could only take the kids so far, second teacher was fantastic but pressured the kids to win competitions and my DD got anxiety around her. My DD looooves this current teacher dearly.

 

So, I guess I was clinging to the hope that some kind of break (2 months, 6 months, even a year?) would help, where I wouldn't have to break-up with the teacher but could let my DD just play her beloved Chopin and Mendelssohn all day long if she wanted to.

 

But, I may be dreaming that kids are capable of such a thing!

[Sandragood1]

We generally take August off from piano and voice lessons every year. I do think it is beneficial. Dd still plays but she plays what she wants to play.

 

Also, if your teacher won't budge, why not add some fun music independently? Fun as defined by your kiddo.

 

We are not going for music scholarships or winning competitions so we are perhaps a bit laid back. However, if you kill your kiddo's love for the music she won't be winning scholarships or competitions either.

[El...]

I teach piano lessons and have deliberately unschooled piano for a few months to encourage my kid to regain the urge to compose and play by ear.  She was getting too perfectionistic and pressured about her pieces.  We restarted together after a 4-month break and she had lost very little knowlege and gained some freedom. 

 

That said, I think this article is on to something.  I've seen the phases she describes play out among my own students. 

http://www.mariespianostudio.com/articles/the-6-stages-of-piano-students-why-and-when-piano-students-quit-lessons

 

(edited for spelling)

 

[rzberrymom]

We generally take August off from piano and voice lessons every year. I do think it is beneficial. Dd still plays but she plays what she wants to play.

 

Also, if your teacher won't budge, why not add some fun music independently? Fun as defined by your kiddo.

 

We are not going for music scholarships or winning competitions so we are perhaps a bit laid back. However, if you kill your kiddo's love for the music she won't be winning scholarships or competitions either.

Yeah, I think it's unlikely there will be any music scholarships here!

 

We talked about just adding some fun stuff, but there's already sooooo much to do for the lessons that it feels like too much to my kiddo. Maybe I need to try something radical like proposing only having a lesson every 2 weeks, which would leave time for extra fun stuff.

[rzberrymom]

That said, I think this article is on to something. I've seen the phases she describes play out among my own students.

http://www.mariespianostudio.com/articles/the-6-stages-of-piano-students-why-and-when-piano-students-quit-lessons

 

(edited for spelling)

Hmmm, I think we're definitely at stage 5 (thank goodness homeschooling eliminated stage 4!) I wish she gave more advice about what to do--I can keep dragging DD through piece after piece, but it's starting to feel kind of awful for the whole family. She has tons of diligence, but intermediate pieces maybe do start to feel like drudgery after a while.

 

I feel encouraged though that a 4 month break didn't ruin your student. DD and I did talk about maybe going rogue just until Christmas.

[El...]

Hmmm, I think we're definitely at stage 5 (thank goodness homeschooling eliminated stage 4!) I wish she gave more advice about what to do--I can keep dragging DD through piece after piece, but it's starting to feel kind of awful for the whole family. She has tons of diligence, but intermediate pieces maybe do start to feel like drudgery after a while.

 

I feel encouraged though that a 4 month break didn't ruin your student. DD and I did talk about maybe going rogue just until Christmas.

I wish so, too, but maybe knowing that ownership may be just around the corner is a help.

 

During that break, Dd still had time for practice, but wasn't told what to do with it, and it wasn't every single regimented day.  The piano was in a primary room, where she might just pause and plink around on a whim, not off in a lonely corner where it might be forgotten. 

 

She had things she wanted to play, and was getting down on herself because she couldn't pull them off, or because I'd played them for her above her level and intimidated her.  Poor kid/bad teacher. 

 

Also, around that time I began using the ideas from the book Mindset to teach her about persevering.  I think she has a strong perfectionistic, if-I-can't-do-it-easily-it-is-too-hard streak in her personality, but has grown a TON in the last six months in this area. 

[Farrar]

We're taking off piano this year - or, at least, for half a year. I don't expect progress to be made though. :) I just think it's okay to drop it for awhile.

[rzberrymom]

I gave her permission to ditch the educational Bach pieces, and now she's in the other room plowing through the Chopin she's been dying to get her hands on. I guess we're officially going rogue.

[rainbird2]

Ugh, that's a tough one...one I am definitely not looking forward to with my own children.  I think getting into a rut happens to all musicians, though, and taking some time off may be beneficial. 

 

Another thought...is your teacher opposed to playing duets with other students, or finding string players to play trios?  Maybe she can team up with another student in the studio to play some duets.  Playing with other kids is always motivating.  And of course, teacher assigns the duets.

 

Another thought...could she play at a nursing home 1x a month?  Maybe other kids in the studio could join?  That way she has a performance (low stress) to prepare for.  The nursing home people love children, so her music could be a real blessing to them.  After the performance, go out for ice cream with the friends.  Sometimes you need a little motivation to get through Scarlatti.  :)  Those Bach 2 and 3 part inventions, too...boy, those just aren't fun sometimes.

 

Good luck to your dd!

[Guest wialtinero]

We generally take August off from piano and voice lessons every year. 

[Another Lynn]

I teach piano lessons and have deliberately unschooled piano for a few months to encourage my kid to regain the urge to compose and play by ear.  She was getting too perfectionistic and pressured about her pieces.  We restarted together after a 4-month break and she had lost very little knowlege and gained some freedom. 

 

That said, I think this article is on to something.  I've seen the phases she describes play out among my own students. 

http://www.mariespianostudio.com/articles/the-6-stages-of-piano-students-why-and-when-piano-students-quit-lessons

 

(edited for spelling)

 

Thanks for posting this article.  It was really helpful to read!

 

[Bluegoat]

My dds piano teacher pretty much insists on no lessons for July and August.  To some extent is practical, but he also thinks the break is important - I think he feels that maintaining an overall good relationship to music is more fundamental than than pushing for early technical proficiency. 

 

I wonder though if it wouldn't be nice to think about some kind of fun music experience.  In many places there are summer rock or pop camps for kids, for example - but anything where they get to play with other people, rather than it being such a solitary occupation, would probably be really fun.  It's kind of funny in a way - for adults, music is more often than not communal in some way -you play with other people, or you are singing or having fun together, but we expect kids to enjoy learning without participating in that.  But realistically, most adults on piano are going to find it more useful to be able to lead a group of singers at the CHristmas dinner or a party - so many people take piano as kids but as adults just don't play at all, and I think it may be partly because they think of it as something they do alone, or to pass a test or be in a competition.

 

Or - something else that might be enjoyable if you want to take a break from, or go lightly n, piano for a few months might be something like ukulele lessons.  It only takes a few to be able to play songs, its not too serious, and you can play with a band or a ukulele group - I have a friend who has a ukulele party every month.  And its nice to have a cheap, easy to transport instrument.

[Dmmetler]

Less for the OP, but if other parents have a kid who wants pop music, and you have an iPad, I suggest the piano Maestro app-which is free if your teacher signs up for it. It includes a lot of pop music, video game songs, etc, and adds a game component and an accompanying track which increases the fun factor. My DD10 uses it for sight reading practice, since she's beyond the level of the songs for the most part. I could also see it being a very good tool for a kid who is ready for a gap from lessons.

[fairfarmhand]

Buy her some new music.

 

My dd loved (at that age) the Peanuts music books. She also loves the Lord of the Rings music books and the Star Wars music books.

 

One year, because of finances, my dd took 3 months off of piano. She was able to really look forward to returning to it. The break just amplified what she enjoyed about piano.

[wintermom]

I teach piano lessons and have deliberately unschooled piano for a few months to encourage my kid to regain the urge to compose and play by ear.  She was getting too perfectionistic and pressured about her pieces.  We restarted together after a 4-month break and she had lost very little knowlege and gained some freedom. 

 

That said, I think this article is on to something.  I've seen the phases she describes play out among my own students. 

http://www.mariespianostudio.com/articles/the-6-stages-of-piano-students-why-and-when-piano-students-quit-lessons

 

 

This is definitely what I've experienced with my own piano education, and seen in my dc so far.  For myself, having other forms of music in my life besides rigorous classical piano and music theory training helped support my overall love of music and balance out the difficult stuff with easier stuff. I played in the school concert band and sang in a choir, both of which were at a much easier level than piano, though were excellent for motivation as they were both group experiences. Playing the piano is such a lonely instrument until one is at a level of accompaning others. 

 

After I got to a certain piano and theory level at age 17, I switched to the organ and had a blast using all the chords and keyboarding I learned in classical training in a new way on a different instrument which my parents happened to have (back in the day when almost everyone had an organ in their home). A spin off of classical piano could be learning some Celtic keyboarding, which would make accompaning others or oneself while singing much easier.

 

 

To the OP, if you are really concerned that your dd may quit music altogether due to the rigid music repetoire your teacher insists on, I would have a private discussion with the teacher and talk about your concerns. Maybe she has some good suggestions, as an alternative to losing a student.

[Paula in MS]

Go to this website.  www.pianopronto.com   Have her look through the intermediate books and listen to the recordings and pick out some fun things.  She writes a lot of pop/contemporary sounding solos.  The note reading is not difficult, but the rhythms can be tricky.  I have just started buying  it for some of my piano students as a break from the more technically demanding pieces.  Total fun, relaxing music.    The author will help you find the right pieces if you contact her.   I think your daughter just needs some variety.  

[El...]

I thought of one more thing: this author really thinks about how to help kids gain musician identity, and here is one of his several books on practicing. 

http://www.amazon.com/Practice-Revolution-Getting-results-between/dp/095819050X/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

 

[Btervet]

I think it's important to remember that music isn't a race. If her teacher is demanding so much that she has no time or energy for her own music, she is doing too much with her teacher. A small break could be good for now, but a longer term solution is also needed.

 

I've played cello and piano for most of my life. I had some intense seasons in middle/high school that almost made me quit. I had a mentor who made a suggestion that my "practice" only every take 50% of the time I played. So if I was going to spend 3 hours on music each day, no more than 1.5 hours on work I was learning and practicing with purpose. The rest was time to just play, and enjoy, and create. Sometime that was learning pieces for my own, sometimes in was improv, sometimes it was playing with friends. But it helped me keep a balance that has let me continue to enjoy playing music into my adult life.

[lllll]

nm

[rzberrymom]

I think it's important to remember that music isn't a race. If her teacher is demanding so much that she has no time or energy for her own music, she is doing too much with her teacher. A small break could be good for now, but a longer term solution is also needed.

 

I've played cello and piano for most of my life. I had some intense seasons in middle/high school that almost made me quit. I had a mentor who made a suggestion that my "practice" only every take 50% of the time I played. So if I was going to spend 3 hours on music each day, no more than 1.5 hours on work I was learning and practicing with purpose. The rest was time to just play, and enjoy, and create. Sometime that was learning pieces for my own, sometimes in was improv, sometimes it was playing with friends. But it helped me keep a balance that has let me continue to enjoy playing music into my adult life.

Oooh, I like looking at it this way! Her teacher agreed to let her take a break, so I'll talk with my DD about using this approach.

[rzberrymom]

I was thinking let her start another instrument, totally unrelated to piano, like flamenco guitar or something. I'm assuming her love of music is real and this would also help her develop another aspect of her musical brain thing. (:)) IOW, something that relies more on listening vs playing? Having trouble expressing it here.

 

I remember taking piano 12 months a year when I was growing up, too. I loved it, but it does get a little stale. Unless, of course, you can find a teacher like the woman in another piano thread on here found. (Russian-trained teacher, sounded wonderful.) But since that's rare, I think it would have helped me to have begun playing around with another instrument or more - just for fun. She'd still be using her music, just in a different format which would stretch her a little.

I think I'll let her give this a try too. She doesn't really seem to like pop or rock (she just wants to play the Romantics all day), so moving away from classical music probably won't solve things. But, trying a new instrument may be just what she needs!

[rzberrymom]

I thought of one more thing: this author really thinks about how to help kids gain musician identity, and here is one of his several books on practicing.

http://www.amazon.com/Practice-Revolution-Getting-results-between/dp/095819050X/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

Perfect--thanks!

[Beebug123]

That article about sums up when I went through learning to play as a child. There were some rough tween years where I pretty much didn't practice at all. Thankfully my grandma and mom kept paying for my lessons during that time. My grandpa would offer me cash if I learned to play "pop songs" from his era (30s-40s). Once I hit high school I would practice for hours and hours a day.

[Bluegoat]

I think I'll let her give this a try too. She doesn't really seem to like pop or rock (she just wants to play the Romantics all day), so moving away from classical music probably won't solve things. But, trying a new instrument may be just what she needs!

 

What about something like folk music?  It can be a lot of fun, or also serious, and very beautiful, many people play it in groups, it can be used for dancing or singing.  And lots of classical composers used folk music. 

 

Or - there is always jazz, which actually I think can be even less accessible than classical, but you never know what kids might enjoy.

 

[Bluegoat]

I teach piano lessons and have deliberately unschooled piano for a few months to encourage my kid to regain the urge to compose and play by ear.  She was getting too perfectionistic and pressured about her pieces.  We restarted together after a 4-month break and she had lost very little knowlege and gained some freedom. 

 

That said, I think this article is on to something.  I've seen the phases she describes play out among my own students. 

http://www.mariespianostudio.com/articles/the-6-stages-of-piano-students-why-and-when-piano-students-quit-lessons

 

(edited for spelling)

 

What I find interesting about this is the fact that the students complaining that they don't get any music they actually enjoy seems to be taken for granted as normal for a lot of the kids being reported on.

 

We don't tend to want to do that with other things, even subjects where we know the child will need to spend time learning about things that he may not appreciate until later, or will not bear fruit until later.  We still let a child learning art work on things that move her, or we let them read books they really enjoy as well as ones that are just "good for them".  Even if it means taking some time from the other things.  I think it is important for kids to read hard books, but also to have the experience of books that they just like.

 

If a child wants to learn to play their instrument in a style they  enjoy right at the moment, why don't we consider that lessons should help them do that and enjoy the instrument, as well as in the long term?  It's like putting off reading Harry Potter now so they can keep practicing directly for Proust.

 

[mamiof5]

Ok...so, from our experience, I feel this is something I can chime in. Our oldest, traditional teacher, no "fun songs" allowed... she eventually quit and now, a few years later, wish she didn't. Our young ones, not as strict theory teaching, but the love for it is there. Their songs and music might not be perfect, but they keep going! Don't let "perfection" kill the love

[El...]

What I find interesting about this is the fact that the students complaining that they don't get any music they actually enjoy seems to be taken for granted as normal for a lot of the kids being reported on.

 

We don't tend to want to do that with other things, even subjects where we know the child will need to spend time learning about things that he may not appreciate until later, or will not bear fruit until later.  We still let a child learning art work on things that move her, or we let them read books they really enjoy as well as ones that are just "good for them".  Even if it means taking some time from the other things.  I think it is important for kids to read hard books, but also to have the experience of books that they just like.

 

If a child wants to learn to play their instrument in a style they  enjoy right at the moment, why don't we consider that lessons should help them do that and enjoy the instrument, as well as in the long term?  It's like putting off reading Harry Potter now so they can keep practicing directly for Proust.

 

I agree. 

 

The hard thing, though, is that when a kid says that, she usually doesn't know what it is she wants.  A few are looking for a particular sound, and if you can find it for them they will take off again.  Most, though, can't articulate yet what that sound IS.  They offer clues, "like Phantom of the Opera", "like in Twilight", but they can't tell you what it is about those sounds that they like.  Sometimes they are wishing to play a sound/speed that they are not technically ready to pull off.   

 

My ideal answer to that hump would be to teach a kid a LOT of chord theory: augmented chords, diminished chords, all the other scales on which jazz can arise, and challenge her brain with some music that is challenging to her ears rather than her fingers, just for a time, to re-whet her appetite.

 

I like to teach kids to arrange their own stuff using chords as soon as they can understand the concept, and that can help them get some ownership and vision to help them move on to the rhetoric/music-is-yours stage. 

 

Do those stages sound at all like classical education stages to you guys?  They do to me.  I've been overthinking this (can you tell?).  :) 

[Forget-Me-Not]

Oh thanks for that article. One of mine is very much in a stage 5 right now.  I plan to push through (though we, too, go lighter in the summer, and that helps).  I know too many people who gave up around this point and wished they'd kept with it (myself included, though I was older).