K-8 science with no text book or specific plan

[happypamama]

I saw in another thread that 8Filltheheart and others don't use science texts until high school. I want to hear more about how that works in your house.

 

I have very little scientific curiosity. I wasn't that all curious about the outdoors and nature and machines and why anyway, and I feel like science was so dull in school that it really killed any interest I might have developed. (I don't feel that way about history; I feel like that was done pretty well.). I want better for my children. They ARE curious and interested.

 

I was very laid back and interest led and informal until a couple of years ago when I thought my oldest child needed more. I don't know why I thought that, but I did. I think I saw high school looming and wanted a "good foundation." I still want that, but I'm rethinking what that means. We had planned to study physical science this year, using Kingfisher for my oldest and Mr. Q for my fifth grader, and I'm just not feeling it. I'm considering dropping an official plan of approaching science systematically in favor of more interest led, more curiosity driven science learning. I do have access to technology, good libraries, nature, etc., and my DH is very science oriented.

 

So, if you don't use a science text for K-8, can you tell me what science looks like at your house? Do you require that they do something, whether it's a project or a nature walk with drawings or some pages read, a certain number of times a week? Did you require any sort of lab report or write up or journal? How much do you direct? What role do websites, computer based learning, and videos play? Do you care if they totally binge for months or years on end about a particular topic? (Some of my children are indeed prone to extreme obsessiveness, so this is a possibility.). Do you care if all they do is read (no experiments or projects), or if all they do is do things (no background reading)? Do you change your methods between early elementary and eighth grade?

 

ETA: I'm specifically interested in how it looks for about fourth through eighth grade. I'm quite happy with my very laid back approach until about third grade.

[Targhee]

Science at our house has been some interest-led and some mom-led.

 

Interest-led:

Snap circuits with student book for more info

Edison Project

BrainPop videos

Documentaries

Interest-specific science kits (Thanes & Kosmos, Magic School Bus, etc)

Apps (NASA, star guide, particle zoo, etc)

Great encyclopedias

Library cards

Science fair

Science Olympiad

First Lego League

YMCA Env Ed camp

Science and children's museums

LOTS of nature centers, national/state park visitor centers, hikes with field guides and picture taking, etc

 

I used to teach middle school science, taught Env Ed at nature center/TA'd Env Ed in college, and worked as a wildlife biologist before choosing to be a mom and homemaker. I have a great love for science, the natural world, and for rational and logical thinking. This, I believe, comes across in all we do at our homeschool. (Except those irrational moments when I butt heads with one of the kids). I do lots of questioning "why do you think that is?" and "what do you think would happen if we changed this?" to engage them in scientific thinking. I try to point out things "did you notice ___?" to improve careful observation. Then the "let's try it out and see" approach where they get to test their hypothesis. Soon enough my kids do this line of questioning themselves, and we discuss.

 

I have done several smaller units I just pulled together with resources from library, Internet, community. - marine biology, forest ecology, rock geology, etc. But the real bulk of learning in these years for us has been exposure and dialogue.

[Targhee]

Do you require that they do something, whether it's a project or a nature walk with drawings or some pages read, a certain number of times a week? No required output until about 4th grade, but participation in things I plan is required.

 

Did you require any sort of lab report or write up or journal? No

 

How much do you direct? See my above post. I would say it's 60-40 (interest-mom lead)

 

What role do websites, computer based learning, and videos play? Resources for exploring ideas. Usually videos they choose themselves.

 

Do you care if they totally binge for months or years on end about a particular topic? (Some of my children are indeed prone to extreme obsessiveness, so this is a possibility.). No, but I make my contributions be about other topics.

 

Do you care if all they do is read (no experiments or projects), or if all they do is do things (no background reading)? I care if they don't think. That's where discussion comes in (see my comments above).

 

Do you change your methods between early elementary and eighth grade? Yes. Early elementary is mostly play. Middle elem they start using library on their own and I will buy them a kit or a class or an activity outside the house based on interests. Upper elem and middle school my kids have become involved in science competitions. I am teaching a bio curriculum to my 8th grader, with labs and reports, in preparation for honors high school sciences and to prepare for AP classes series. 5th grader wants to do it too, which is fine. I will have very different expectations of output from each.

[happypamama]

Science at our house has been some interest-led and some mom-led.

 

Interest-led:

Snap circuits with student book for more info

Edison Project

BrainPop videos

Documentaries

Interest-specific science kits (Thanes & Kosmos, Magic School Bus, etc)

Apps (NASA, star guide, particle zoo, etc)

Great encyclopedias

Library cards

Science fair

Science Olympiad

First Lego League

YMCA Env Ed camp

Science and children's museums

LOTS of nature centers, national/state park visitor centers, hikes with field guides and picture taking, etc

 

I used to teach middle school science, taught Env Ed at nature center/TA'd Env Ed in college, and worked as a wildlife biologist before choosing to be a mom and homemaker. I have a great love for science, the natural world, and for rational and logical thinking. This, I believe, comes across in all we do at our homeschool. (Except those irrational moments when I butt heads with one of the kids). I do lots of questioning "why do you think that is?" and "what do you think would happen if we changed this?" to engage them in scientific thinking. I try to point out things "did you notice ___?" to improve careful observation. Then the "let's try it out and see" approach where they get to test their hypothesis. Soon enough my kids do this line of questioning themselves, and we discuss.

 

I have done several smaller units I just pulled together with resources from library, Internet, community. - marine biology, forest ecology, rock geology, etc. But the real bulk of learning in these years for us has been exposure and dialogue.

Okay, see, this looks great to me, and we have a lot of those types of resources around. They get used. The kids love that sort of stuff. But do I require it, or what? They'll pick up magazines (today, my first grader picked up Ranger Rick and saw sloths in it, and he started telling me about how sloths work and how their toes are and everything, because he'd learned it from watching Wild Kratts), they'll get curious at museums, they'll use the stargazing apps. But I don't know. They enjoyed the SnapCircuits when I was going through them with them, discussing how the circuits worked, but they haven't been inspired to go play with them on their own, to dig deeper, to try new things. That's what I want for them. There's also the question of whether they would go deeper and ask more on their own, if I didn't bother to schedule anything at all. My older two have a zillion hobbies, which I think is great, but there are only so many hours, y'know? My fourth grader is more likely to go play his guitar (which he's quite good at and very interested in doing) in his free time than to go mess around with his SnapCircuits or wander around the yard to look for bugs. How comfortable am I with stuff only coming up accidentally vs. how much do I want to make accidental discoveries likely to happen?

[happypamama]

Do you require that they do something, whether it's a project or a nature walk with drawings or some pages read, a certain number of times a week? No required output until about 4th grade, but participation in things I plan is required.

 

Okay, I could get behind this. So, you might plan a small unit, or a cool project to demonstrate, and they'd be expected to participate, even if the subject matter didn't necessarily interest them at first glance? And you'd maybe kind of guide a discussion, by asking, "what if we did X instead" and that sort of thing? That would work for me.

 

Thank you so much for your help! This is the one subject I don't feel comfortable with at all. I'd outsource if I could, but its not feasible for multiple reasons. DH is just so much better at this sort of thing, but I can't totally rely on him to do all of it because his hours are so limited.

 

We had planned to study physical science, so I think I'd like to start by taking them through the machines in the "Physics Lab in a Housewares Store" book because I think it's pretty cool and has good descriptions of how the machines work. Maybe add that to our morning time a couple of days a week, and then have them work on something, whether it's a book or a self-directed project or the occasional video, a couple of days a week.

[MinivanMom]

At our house we try to make science a part of everyday life. We spend a lot of time outdoors hiking, and we take trips to both the beach and the mountains. We visit the aquarium every summer, and we head to the zoo or the natural science museum at least once a month. My husband also works in a science-related field so we tend to talk about science-y stuff over the dinner table.

 

For my 1st-4th graders I focus on a specific topic each year. I've been rotating between two years of biology and two years of physical science. What that means is that twice a week I read aloud from good, interesting real science books full of photos and diagrams. I also plan a big science "project" each year. Last year was our first year of biology, and we mainly focused on basic biology concepts, habitats, and zoology. Our project was raising caterpillars. This year will be our second year of biology, and we will be focused on human anatomy and botany. We will do some kind of gardening project in the spring. We have also acquired a cheap microscope and a telescope for our physical science years. We don't do any "experiments", and I don't expect any output until 4th (when they start doing written summaries of what I read aloud). Our focus is on building positive attitudes toward science and nurturing curiosity about the physical world.

 

For my 5th and up kids, I start requiring more. We still focus on a topic each year (earth science & astronomy in 5th, biology in 6th, physical science in 7th), but I don't plan it out for them. I try to buy a couple of interesting, but challenging, books as a starting point. They read everyday, and they write a short "science report" once every three weeks. This is just an informal report about something interesting they've learned, but I also require one real research paper (all properly cited). I round out the topic with some real experiments. For example my 6th grader will be studying biology this year. I bought the wonderful book The Way Life Works for her to read as a jumping off point. I also bought her the DK Human Body Coloring Book, and we already have some great botany and zoology books. She will also be doing a TOPS experiment unit, and I am ordering a dissection kit for her (grasshopper, crayfish, frog, and something else). She has time set aside daily for science, but I haven't planned it all out for her other than generally planning to start with The Way Life Works. I will let her go where her interests take her.

 

I hated science as a child, and I think everything I did in school (dry textbooks, science "demonstrations" that required no curiosity or scientific thinking) served to reinforce that. Prior to high school is where I have the freedom to follow my kids' interests. If I haven't killed their wonder and curiosity then I will have done well. Less is more.

[My3girls]

We are using Intelligo Unit Studies as a jumping off point. I fill it in with library books, documentaries, and field trips. This seems to be working for us. I wasn't comfortable making it up as I went along. Although, the year we did it, it seemed to go fine. I need the security blanket, I guess. We have avoided texts so far, though.

[Targhee]

Okay, see, this looks great to me, and we have a lot of those types of resources around. They get used. The kids love that sort of stuff. But do I require it, or what? They'll pick up magazines (today, my first grader picked up Ranger Rick and saw sloths in it, and he started telling me about how sloths work and how their toes are and everything, because he'd learned it from watching Wild Kratts), they'll get curious at museums, they'll use the stargazing apps. But I don't know. They enjoyed the SnapCircuits when I was going through them with them, discussing how the circuits worked, but they haven't been inspired to go play with them on their own, to dig deeper, to try new things. That's what I want for them. There's also the question of whether they would go deeper and ask more on their own, if I didn't bother to schedule anything at all. My older two have a zillion hobbies, which I think is great, but there are only so many hours, y'know? My fourth grader is more likely to go play his guitar (which he's quite good at and very interested in doing) in his free time than to go mess around with his SnapCircuits or wander around the yard to look for bugs. How comfortable am I with stuff only coming up accidentally vs. how much do I want to make accidental discoveries likely to happen?

You could keep it simple by requiring a set time of the day or week which is for science.  At our house we have "project time" which can be science, or a history project, or something I orchestrate, but they all know they need to be working on a project.  One might be programming with Scratch while another is watching a doco, and another is studying for Science Olympiad.  I don't require them to do something specific (unless they are doing it along with me), but I set aside time for them to work on their own projects.

 

This is as close to Project Based Learning as I get.  It has worked well, and the kids like the autonomy.  

[woolybear]

There have been some great threads on this topic. I will try to track them down.

 

Here is one:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/361740-scientific-inquiry/

[ktgrok]

Until highschool we were pretty interest led, but also mom stuff at times. So a few times a week i'd add to his daily checklist "watch a science documentary of your choosing" or "Read this webpage and tell me about it". Plus we would listen to science friday on NPR every week, etc. I'd bring home science documentaries from the library as well, and Mr. wizard DVDs, etc. And we have experiement books on the shelf, so sometimes I'd assign "pick an experiment, and tell me what we need to do it."

[abba12]

I'm also of the interest led, and incidental resources variety. We have lots of sciency books, lots of magic schoolbus, we're buying snap circuits for christmas this year, we do trips to the museum, and I am always prepared to ask and answer questions when we come across something scientific (walk in the botanical gardens, or driving past the airport, or all sorts of stuff.) If I don't know the answer I suggest looking it up when we get home. I doubt a week goes by where the kids don't ask some sort of science question or make some sort of sciency type observation.

 

We will probably begin doing mixed formal science around 6th or 7th grade here, at which point I would expect it to be a fairly independent subject with weekly discussion time with me. Basically, they don't get to do science until they can set up their own experiments and clean them up again lol. I find it more productive to put what little hands-on-activity energy I have into craft projects for the younger ones. I am not a hands on structured activity kind of person so I have to prioritize. I know a regular science curriculum for little ones just wont happen here. All the good intentions in the world wont overcome toddlers and my teaching style.

 

As for requiring it, right now I don't need to as the kids have enough interest independently. But if I notice they haven't done anything sciency for a few weeks I might intentionally put on a documentary at lunchtime, or intentionally plan a trip somewhere that peaks a scientific interest, or intentionally plan one science experiment (I can't do science experiments regularly, but I can handle putting time aside to plan one) or pick a subject myself and get some books about it at the library for read aloud time, or generally just do something casual to throw it back into the daily routine. 

[rose]

When we go to the library I pick out non-fiction books and they pick out fiction. We don't go back to the library until all the non-fiction is read and discussed. This week I got books on the circulatory system and the respiratory system and one about neo-natal development all age appropriate. I'll throw in other material as I feel inspired.

[lewelma]

I wrote this plan up for someone last year. I don't use this approach, but it might help you to think about how you can be both child led and systematic. Yes, it can be done.  :001_smile:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/435374-ruth-more-questions/page-1?do=findComment&comment=4436605

 

Right now, my ds(11) is required to read 30 minutes nonfiction per day.  This is usually national geographic, but sometimes Scientific American.  He watches docos about 4 times per week, his choice as we have access to a lot.  He writes science reports when he feels like it which is about 2 times per term so about 8 per year, and he does a whopper of a science fair project every year. In addition to that, we generally talk science at the dinner table a couple times per week and we play with thought experiments whenever one comes up.  For example, he asks, "I wonder why there are so many cars at this light."  I ask, " so how would you find out?" and we go from there. Finally, I read to him from a bio text averaging about an hour a week, but we go in binges, so 5 hours one week and none for a while.  We have finished cell bio, the chemistry of photosynthesis, genetics, and now we are onto human body.  Just a bit here and there. We start earth science come 2016.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Soror]

My short answer is we----

Pick a topic to study:

I talk to them about what they are interested in studying or look at what they seem to like and make suggestions

 

Compile a list of various resources:

books

movies/documentaries

websites

activities

etc

hit the library to see what they have- I look and have them look as well and pick what they like

 

For x minutes day/ week they read, watch, or do within that list, mostly that is composed of reading, especially my son, he loves reading. He has been a bit slow with writing and this has been done separately, this year we will be doing some writing projects related to science this year but I've not nailed down a specific number, once a quarter or so is my thought. My daughters seem to lean more towards projects and activities but they are younger so I haven't had much experience with them yet. My k'er is just a tag-along and my 3rd grader is not much of a reader so our science work is together from a compilation of various things, following rabbit trails and such. 

[happypamama]

Everyone, thank you so much for your input on this thread! Part of me is still a little nervous about going without a very specific plan (because I'm seeing high school and college entrance exams looming, and I worry about making the transition to formal math based sciences and all of that, but I'm trusting that that will come when it's needed), but I really love the idea of a different plan. I requested a ton of science books from the library and will spend the weekend going through them to see which ones I think would be good readalouds. I also want to compile a list of videos about physical science topics. Guess that's a new thread.

[8filltheheart]

In 4th-8th my kids are reading 30-60 mins per day (starting around 30 mins in 3rd/4th and increasing to around 60 mins by 7th) from trade books/whole books (whatever term you want to use) on different science topics.  Every 2-3 weeks they are assigned a writing topic from their science reading.  (what that looks like IRL is that they are required to research the topic in greater depth, compile notes, and write a report on the topic.)

 

Some of my kids have gone a different route in 8th.  My current college student took high school alg based physics in 8th.  My current 11th grader spent all of her time in 8th reading books focused on ecology, enough so that I am giving her a high school ecology credit for 8th grade.  My current 8th grader wants to focus on writing a novel this yr and asked for a different approach for science, so she is completing all 3 of Plato's middle school science courses (physical, life, and earth) for science this yr.

 

They learn how to write labs in high school level science courses.  :) 

[happypamama]

In 4th-8th my kids are reading 30-60 mins per day (starting around 30 mins in 3rd/4th and increasing to around 60 mins by 7th) from trade books/whole books (whatever term you want to use) on different science topics. Every 2-3 weeks they are assigned a writing topic from their science reading. (what that looks like IRL is that they are required to research the topic in greater depth, compile notes, and write a report on the topic.)

 

Some of my kids have gone a different route in 8th. My current college student took high school alg based physics in 8th. My current 11th grader spent all of her time in 8th reading books focused on ecology, enough so that I am giving her a high school ecology credit for 8th grade. My current 8th grader wants to focus on writing a novel this yr and asked for a different approach for science, so she is completing all 3 of Plato's middle school science courses (physical, life, and earth) for science this yr.

 

They learn how to write labs in high school level science courses. :)

8Filltheheart, thanks so much -- I was really hoping you'd chime in! I so love this approach. I think we are not at the point where I can require much of a written report yet, especially from my fifth grader, but I think that's a good goal to work towards. Do you have them pick a book and stick with it for 2-3 weeks, or do you let them skip around if they want?

[Soror]

8Filltheheart, thanks so much -- I was really hoping you'd chime in! I so love this approach. I think we are not at the point where I can require much of a written report yet, especially from my fifth grader, but I think that's a good goal to work towards. Do you have them pick a book and stick with it for 2-3 weeks, or do you let them skip around if they want?

Fwiw 8's book Treasured Conversations can get you towards writing those reports as it lines it out in the last lessons of TC. Ds did TC last year and we will be doing some reports this year, although it won't be his only writing. We hear reports and we think it has to be this long drawn out thing but she shows you how to start this on a basic level.

[happypamama]

Fwiw 8's book Treasured Conversations can get you towards writing those reports as it lines it out in the last lessons of TC. Ds did TC last year and we will be doing some reports this year, although it won't be his only writing. We hear reports and we think it has to be this long drawn out thing but she shows you how to start this on a basic level.

Oh! That's wonderful! I'm using TC with my fifth grader this year (between WWE and WWS) although we are only a week into it, and I admit to not having looked at the end much yet (although I will make a point to look at it this weekend, to see where it's going). My eighth grader has been through WWS1 and has done well with it, but since she's not the most confident writer, maybe I can have her start at the basic level shown in TC as well and work up from there. Thanks for pointing this out!

[daijobu]

8Filltheheart, thanks so much -- I was really hoping you'd chime in! I so love this approach.

 

I agree.  8 had some good middle school science advice for me on another thread about a month ago that still has me thinking.  

[Sahamamama]

I'm glad you posted this question. We're about to start up with 3rd, 3rd, and 5th, and we plan to take an open-ended approach to Science for the next few years. I'll come back and post when my morning chores are done, but I'm also taking notes! :)

[Sahamamama]

I agree.  8 had some good middle school science advice for me on another thread about a month ago that still has me thinking.  

 

Hi, daijobu --

 

Can you link this thread to that post? Thanks!

[Soror]

Was it this one?

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/551317-6th-grade-and-finished-with-middle-school-sciencewhat-now/?hl=%2Bscience&do=findComment&comment=6351574

[daijobu]

Hi, daijobu --

 

Can you link this thread to that post? Thanks!

 

I found it!  Page down to post #11 for 8's comment.  Particularly since my own dd has already finished middle school science and she has 2 more years of middle school to go, it is nice to think of these next couple of years as more flexible.  While I've signed up my dd for an online biology class, I've also been telling her that if she wants she can ditch it and take a more student-directed approach to science.  As I continue to think on it, I'm hoping she chooses the latter!  

[Bluegoat]

I can tell you what we did last year for 4th grade, and are doing this year for 5th.

 

Last year I arranged a pretty bare-bones science outline, because I anticipated being busy with other things.  I decided to concentrate on the human body as dd10 is getting to the age where that kind of information is useful.  I really just got her different books on the topic, mostly from the library, and had her read them, or we read them together.  She also watched some documentaries.  I did not do any formal nature study planning but we did try to get out for walks fairly often.  Both of my girls will also choose science books on their own at times, and we take trips from time to time to the nature museum, agricultural museum, and so on.  Dd10 also read a biography of Pasteur.

 

This year I have bigger plans.  We tend to use summer for a lot of outdoor things.  So far dd10 has been collecting weather data in a chart (temp, clouds, wind direction, precipitation.)  She's doing it manually at the moment, but my dh has bought her an automated system she can hook up to her raspberry pi, so she will try that as well.  Once she has a good amount of data, maybe at the end of the Fall, they will do some analysis.

 

We also did a week of nature study with some kids from our church, including a lot of journaling.  We looked at patterns in nature to make a design for the cover, planted a garden and talked about the needs of plants, dug up some works and looked at them closely and talked about their role, visited a salt marsh, and learned about mushrooms.  We will carry on with more - I've planned for one trip per week, plus I will send them to do things out in the neighbourhood when they are annoying.  We'll make a point over the winter to get insect and weather books out at the library.

 

For science reading, also once per week, dd10 is reading Fabre's book of insects, a little biography of Mendel, and then we'll see.  Dd7 is going to use Outdoor Secrets and we have the companion book which is quite nice and very simple.  (Her work generally is pretty informal at this point.)

[daijobu]

Was it this one?

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/551317-6th-grade-and-finished-with-middle-school-sciencewhat-now/?hl=%2Bscience&do=findComment&comment=6351574

 

Yes, that's the one.  (I didn't read ahead before posting.)

[Jennifer132]

When I think of science, I think of math. Math is the language of science (think chemistry, physics). I think up until the point where they can actually do the math portion, science should be interest-led using living books, encyclopedias, Internet research, documentaries, life experience, etc. I see no point for my children personally to pursue science seriously before they can do and understand the math behind the science.

 

The other part of science, like nature study, plants, animals, rocks, and human anatomy I feel is also best learned through interest. I try very hard to expose them to different real life experiences with these things, whether that be through nature walks, rock collection and identification, books, museums or something else. I do think studying these things when there is no interest can kill any potential future interest for the child.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

It's a tricky question, do we use science resources in our house.  Here's how I answer...

 

We are almost entirely interest-led.  Having said that, I was a scientist before being a mom, and my dh, though not at all in the sciences, is obsessed with geology.  So our kids have lots of exposure, which means they have lots of opportunities to develop interests and pursue them.  We spend a lot of time at our Natural History museum, outdoors looking at rocks, raising tadpoles, getting water bugs and looking at them, etc.  

 

We read science books, we watch lots of documentaries, and so on.  We do some writing in the sciences (article summaries for ds) and because of his interest in chemistry, I have gotten him the Ellen McHenry Elements stuff to go through.  But if, half way through the year he stopped being interested in chemistry, I probably wouldn't push him to finish it.  

 

We press flowers and look up their names in a field guide, my daughter owns a telescope and studies the moon at every full moon, my son asked for a microscope for Christmas, we have a cupboard dedicated to their "finds"- we have various rocks, a bird nest, seed pods, a skull from an owl pellet...

 

Sometimes I will consult the BFSU flowchart (wonderful resource!) and teach something we haven't naturally stumbled upon.  

 

I don't plan on continuing in this way until 8th.  I think my kids will be ready for high school sciences by 7th, so that's what we'll do.  I'll probably use a mix of The Great Courses and my own teaching.  I also like the looks of Big History and the Joy of Science TGC for 6th or 7th as overview courses before doing individual science branches.  

 

We'll see!  

[happypamama]

Thank you all for these fantastic ideas!  The children and DH are on board with a new plan.

 

Two days a week, I add a science component to our group work time.  Right now, I'm going through Physics Lab in a Housewares Store with them.  We've also watched some videos.  The other two days, they choose what to do.  Sometimes that's SnapCircuits.  DH and the two older children just started a Coursera class about audio engineering.  The three of them are very into guitars and music, so that's right up their alley.  I don't know what the assignments entail, so we'll see what of them the children are able to do.  If we keep this sort of thing up for the year, I actually think we will learn a lot, and I'm very comfortable with the mix of both interest-led and gentle Mom-directed so they're introduced to a variety of topics.

 

We *do* do a lot of informal stuff like nature study and the like, but I've never really succeeded in making it at all formal.  I don't know why.  I have nature journals, but maybe they're not really our thing or something.  We do have a bunch of field guides and a star gazing app, and we do take those things out, but there's nothing systematic about it.  I'm totally cool with that for the younger grades, but I'm also happy with a transitional time for the middle grades, to a more systematic approach.  Thanks, WTM, for helping me explore what a different approach might look like!