Teaching kids to have responsibility for their own education

[CatholicSteph]

Good evening! I am sitting here, reflect on our first day of fourth grade, and on the previous 4 years of homeschooling, and wondering how to help my daughter take an active role in her own education. Whatever way that is, I think I am failing. I do accept input from her on which materials to use, absolutely. And I have been experimenting with letting her choose subject order. But given the option, she would learn nothing at all and just play all day (ok, ok, maybe most 4th graders would, probably not unusaual). Its a real chore to get her to complete her work without nagging. If I leave the room to use the bathroom or put in laundry, she completely stops working. There is just zero internal motivation to get anything done, no stake in her own learning. I've been parenting experts say, if your kids don't do their homework, let them reap the consequences at school, but that doesn't really work for a homeschooled kid. I am really working at getting her to be more independent this year, working more without me over her shoulder, and just stepping back and not micromanaging the day. 

 

So what have you done to foster a sense of personal responsibility and internal desire to succeed in their education? 

[Rosie_0801]

My dd is only grade 2, so my thoughts aren't worth much. It seems to me, though, that a grade 4 kid doesn't have the perspective to take responsibility for their own education unless they think they are playing. I sure didn't in grade 4. I was mostly staring out the window.  :laugh:

 

I think it has taken years of reading here for me to be able to take responsibility for my own education. Now I know enough to have some idea why I'd be doing what I was doing.

[CatholicSteph]

I guess I've retained just enough Charotte Mason philosophy to know that was her goal, but not sure how to implement it, lol

[J-rap]

I think that age is too young to expect children to have their own educational goals.  They don't yet have a clear enough sense of themselves, what they can do, and how education will help all of that along. 

 

I believe the best things to teach at that age are simply recognizing goals (whether you set them as their teacher or they set them themselves;  most likely it will be you), and the discipline, structure,  and creativity required to meet them.

 

A lot of it at that age doesn't and can't rely on internal motivation.  They can't yet understand the whole picture.  So, it has to be more about the discipline required to meet goals and the sense of satisfaction that comes from that.

 

When my kids were that age, I would list all of their assignments on a sheet of paper, and they would cross them off as they went.  They knew they couldn't go and play and do other things until everything was completed.  So, they could stay on task and be done by 2:00, or drag their feet and work til dinner.

 

 

 

[The Girls' Mom]

Concurring that she's too young.  It seems to me that an motivating interest in their education only really comes when they have a goal that doesn't seem like a lifetime away.  To a 4th grader, the end result seems out of reach at this point.  A 4th grader can BE interested when there is a subject that they are passionate about.  

 

My 4th graders never had such a passion that was school related.  My kids began to show an interest when they reached high school.  (Honestly, one never really got a general motivation...she just wanted to check boxes while learning every language she could get her hands on.  Telling her that math and science would allow her to learn more languages never really worked..lol)  My younger two, however, are suddenly very motivated to finish up their last two years well so they can go to a good school and study things they love.  That kind of goal/motivation is a foreign concept to most 9 year olds.  

 

It'll come with time.  

[CatholicSteph]

Thanks, ladies. I guess I am worried that, instead of heading in a direction that will allow her to be independent, self motivated, and disciplined, I am poking, nagging, prodding, and reminding so often that she isn't learning any of those skills. I am about at my wits-end. She does actually enjoy most of what we do, but that doesn't stop her from complaining, sulking, and ughing consistently throughout the day. I feel more like a warden than a teacher or mother. 

[Luckymama]

Dd specialized in the full-body flop (onto the table or the nearest horizontal surface) during 5-7th grades. It was usually accompanied by a deep sigh :rolleyes:

 

Today, as an almost-tenth grader, she emailed a university professor about Arabic placement and asked to go into town to buy a planner for this year. I almost passed out :lol:

 

There is hope!

[albeto.]

I'm in the "too young" camp, too. I had one child who was so motivated we couldn't stop him from learning what he wanted. Seriously, he refused to come do school work because he would not stop reading his text books. I exposed myself to the sweet chaos of unschooling in hopes of making sure his education wouldn't be neglected. It was nothing I did. My other kids did not approach life the same way. I didn't create that temperament, he was born with it.

 

Having said that, I do think there are ways to foster the natural love of learning. One is to remember children learn even through play. When she plays with you, near you, or even talks about something related to play, notice and comment on what she's doing. It doesn't have to sound like a contrived lesson (it shouldn't - she'll never want to share with you because that will seem weird). But notice it. Articulate it. Lend her a running dialog of what you see her doing with her free time, just like you did when she was too young to talk and you gave her a running dialog of what you were doing. It's giving her vocabulary to her experiences. Do it with a friendly purpose, not a lesson purpose. She'll connect the dots in time. Right now, you can just shine a little light on them. 

 

When she shows a particular interest or aptitude in something, let her be the expert in the family about that subject. Ask her questions, and let her see you genuinely appreciate knowing something new. Expose her to things related to this interest. Share your interests with her in the same way. Certain things brings smiles to our faces, and certain things bring smiles to others' faces. Those things that bring a smile to our loved ones' faces, bring a smile to our faces. She'll appreciate your interests as you appreciate hers. None of this has to be academic. I would suggest not "forcing" an academic interest in any of this conversation. She's young. Her play will go on for years. Her interests will expand. You'll see a trend emerge. You may even see a few. Don't worry, and don't hurry. They'll change and shift, and one day you'll look back and see her interests had inspired her in one way or another all along. Give her this time to enjoy her interests for the sake of genuine enjoyment. Good experiences are valuable for their own sake. 

 

This is a good time to simply instill habits. She may not appreciate the school work, but the day is set up such and such a way nevertheless. Avoid the temptation to be pulled into arguments. They're distractions. If necessary, you might tell her that she's clearly upset about this, and at lunch time the two of you can discuss it, but right now it's time to do this thing that we do every day/week/month at this time. Because habits are important. Then when you discuss it (we tend to blow it off if our kids are distracted, so remind her and offer her your attention), then share with her some of your reasons for doing it this way. You know it feels boring, for example, but the stuff she learns now will come in handy when she is really interested in something else. Or whatever reasons you have. Keep it short and sweet. Humor helps. 

 

And enjoy the world through her eyes again. You've got time.

 

:)

[HomeAgain]

We kept a blank schedule in a sheet protector. It had a block for every subject and a few extras, along with space for when the task could be expected to be done by and when it was actually done. Morning meeting had him filling in the subjects in whatever preferred order he wanted. I was available to work with him as needed, but setting his own schedule was the first step to learning independence in this area.

[Raising Little Shoots]

I also think it is perfectly normal. From a Charlotte Mason perspective, I would say keep on modelling the behaviour you wish to see,support her in completing her lessons in a timely manner,forming good habits, untill she has the maturity to take responsibility for her own education.

It may take a while..... :)

[MerryAtHope]

Thanks, ladies. I guess I am worried that, instead of heading in a direction that will allow her to be independent, self motivated, and disciplined, I am poking, nagging, prodding, and reminding so often that she isn't learning any of those skills. I am about at my wits-end. She does actually enjoy most of what we do, but that doesn't stop her from complaining, sulking, and ughing consistently throughout the day. I feel more like a warden than a teacher or mother. 

 

This is definitely something you work on gradually over time. Things that helped here with dragging the feet:

 

I sat down and showed my kids how long each subject should take, and the whole plan for the day. Then I showed them that, if they worked diligently, school could be done by x o'clock, and the rest of their time after that was free time. Did they want more free time? 

 

Okay, well in order for that to happen, we needed to work together. Now, what happens if, during math, you tune out, look out the window, stop working when I go to the bathroom etc...? That's right, you actually just gave up some of your freetime later when you could do something really fun! 

 

Then, I made it concrete. I would tell them, "Okay, you have X minutes to do math." and let them do it. When X minutes were up, I'd see where they were. If almost done, I gave them 5-10 minutes to finish. If they were a long way from done, I said, "Time for history. You can do the rest of your math during your free time for homework." Move on no matter how much she complains (but do let her know ahead of time that this is the plan). 

 

At the end of school, announce that it's free time unless she has homework. Homework at our house was done at the kitchen table (not sprawled on the floor, laying on a couch etc... which were options for other subjects). Usually the first time both of my kids got homework, they let it last 2-3 hours, but after that, if they got homework, they got it done quickly so they could go play. 

 

Another thing that really helped here with fostering independence and a good work ethic--workboxes. That divides things up into visible, doable parts (like a 3-d schedule). 

 

You do need to let some of the complaining etc... roll off, but it's also fine to call her on it. "You're complaining. You don't have to love it, but you do have to do it." Kids this age complain, sigh etc... because they know they can't outright refuse to do something, but every once in awhile, a complaint works. It might be once a year that it works--but kids are gamblers and will hold out that today will be that "one time."  So, it's fine to set up a verbal boundary, and then walk away. Don't sit and listen to her complain. And, if she doesn't finish in the time allotted, too bad, now she has homework, stuck at the kitchen table...which you can walk away from. (I was always much less available "after school.") 

 

She will definitely need guidance moving through her day, staying on track, have fun here and there (because who doesn't want to have fun after all?!) But you can begin to help her develop that work ethic you are looking for.

 

Sympathize when she doesn't have a great day, but don't make a big deal about it--"Sorry you had homework today. Maybe tomorrow will go better!" 

 

Finally--be watchful and praise her when she works without complaining, gets done in the time allotted and so forth. Encourage her in those things she does well (lay those rails), and try to focus more on them and less on the times she didn't do well. Most of us respond better to encouragement and praise than to a constant focus on what we do wrong. You may have to look hard some days! 

[The Governess]

My dd was like that in 4th also. She's starting sixth now, and things are improving. I think some of it is just self-awareness: as a fourth grader she didn't really know what kind of student she wanted to be. Now she knows that it feels good to be on top of her work, to be organized, to turn in well-done assignments, and she is starting to take that on as part of her identity.

 

What helped? Getting older, for sure. Taking a couple online classes and getting feedback from someone else, seeing that the other students in her class were ready with answers, etc. Also giving her more responsibility: she has learned to scan and submit her own work, she fills in her own planner with work for the week according to how much school time she has each day, etc. We do a lot of estimating of tasks together so she can learn to be realistic with her time and can see when she is dragging something out.

 

Hang in there! Hopefully you will see some improvements in the next year or two. :)

[flyingaway]

Thanks, ladies. I guess I am worried that, instead of heading in a direction that will allow her to be independent, self motivated, and disciplined, I am poking, nagging, prodding, and reminding so often that she isn't learning any of those skills. I am about at my wits-end. She does actually enjoy most of what we do, but that doesn't stop her from complaining, sulking, and ughing consistently throughout the day. I feel more like a warden than a teacher or mother.

[flyingaway]

I feel as if we are just now getting past me having to push and prod as my daughter nears high school. It's been a long process and there's still not full ownership, but she does become more reasonable every year.

[Ellie]

Good evening! I am sitting here, reflect on our first day of fourth grade, and on the previous 4 years of homeschooling, and wondering how to help my daughter take an active role in her own education. Whatever way that is, I think I am failing. I do accept input from her on which materials to use, absolutely. And I have been experimenting with letting her choose subject order. But given the option, she would learn nothing at all and just play all day (ok, ok, maybe most 4th graders would, probably not unusaual). Its a real chore to get her to complete her work without nagging. If I leave the room to use the bathroom or put in laundry, she completely stops working. There is just zero internal motivation to get anything done, no stake in her own learning. I've been parenting experts say, if your kids don't do their homework, let them reap the consequences at school, but that doesn't really work for a homeschooled kid. I am really working at getting her to be more independent this year, working more without me over her shoulder, and just stepping back and not micromanaging the day. 

 

So what have you done to foster a sense of personal responsibility and internal desire to succeed in their education? 

 

I would not expect a 9yo to take much responsibility for her education, if you're thinking that education only happens in school books..

 

All children want to learn; they just don't necessarily want to learn stuff out of the school books that we want them to learn, when we want them to learn it. 

 

Playing is learning for children. When she wants to play all day, she *does* have a stake in her own education, because the play is how she learns.

 

Perhaps giving her small assignments that she can easily complete in, oh, 20 minutes, while you occupy yourself in the same room, might work. Then you can both take breaks. And I'm assuming there would be some interaction between you and her before she is given the assignments to work on independently.

[FO4UR]

I guess I've retained just enough Charotte Mason philosophy to know that was her goal, but not sure how to implement it, lol

 

 

She didn't have independent learners in Year 4.  Her goal was to raise independent learners as adults, independent thinkers even from a young age.  CM never handed over responsibility to the student.  She chose the books.  She decided what would be done with the books.  She based her decisions upon the needs of the children, but she didn't hand over the responsibility.

 

Let that take a weight off.   :grouphug:

 

 

 

 

Thanks, ladies. I guess I am worried that, instead of heading in a direction that will allow her to be independent, self motivated, and disciplined, I am poking, nagging, prodding, and reminding so often that she isn't learning any of those skills. I am about at my wits-end. She does actually enjoy most of what we do, but that doesn't stop her from complaining, sulking, and ughing consistently throughout the day. I feel more like a warden than a teacher or mother. 

 

 

This is a habit problem.  She has a habit of complaining.  That's a different chapter in the CM books. ;)   I have a complainer too.  It's not fun.  

 

Keep lessons short.  Set a time for everything, and everything has a time.  If she complains for 10min of her copywork time, then she'll have to finish her copywork during playtime.  You are cool as a cucumber.

 

 

One thing I've done is made a planner for the kids with 30min increments of time broken up through the day.  I let them plot out their daily plan (from my master plan).  They can see that the day has a finite number of slots.  If they want free time later, they must do the work when they planned.  (I used 30min increments knowing that most lessons take 15-25min.)

[Critterfixer]

My boys went through a period in fourth grade where they really felt like complaining about everything. I considered it valid complaining. Up until fourth grade, they didn't have much writing to do that required them to respond. Math had been all about getting those pesky multiplication facts down, but suddenly they were supposed to use them to factor. And Latin vocabulary was expanding to the point that the s-word, STUDY, had come into play. And translation was kicking their rears. 

I sympathized. Yeah, stuff is getting tougher. If it wasn't, there would be no reason to do it. On the other hand, the constant complaining wasn't helping anything, and it was wearing on my sympathy.

So we made a deal. I offered to listen passively to four complaints per child, per day, with a smile on my face. After four, they paid. We kept a list of mutually agreed upon chores that they could do after school for any complaint over the four. I put some glass beads in two cups and kept them on the table, that way they could see how many freebies they had before they needed to pay me back. 

Worked like a charm. Nobody liked to lose more than two or three. They didn't like seeing their cup near empty. I think I got my baseboards cleaned twice, maybe? 

I haven't needed the jars in a while. I put them up around the first quarter of fifth grade. It isn't that they don't complain, but they don't keep after it like they used to. So I think some of the complaining really was just getting used to increasing difficulty of work and not wanting do it without having a say in how they felt about it. The jar and beads were just a way of seeing when they had said enough and should move on.

 

The second thing we did in late fourth grade to early fifth grade to help with taking some responsibility for education was instituting a study session once or twice a week. I'd make cinnamon toast, or dispense a handful of chocolate chips, or we might have sliced fruit for a snack. Then we would all sit down around sunset and study. Usually this would be reviewing Latin vocabulary or practice a math concept that was giving us trouble. The sessions were no longer than a half hour. I'm looking forward to starting them again this fall.

 

 

[Tawlas]

I have a complainer too so some of these posts are very helpful. She's a young about-to-be a fourth grader though so I have't expected a lot of independence except in a few areas. While I'm working with her young brothers, she needs to be practicing skills - and those skills can be tough since she's not quite an independent reader yet!

 

this year I bought her a pretty student planner from Plum Cheeky and I'm planning to sit down with her each week and go through the week's indpendent work (so ETC phonics sheets, copy work, foreign language vocab practice, fact practice that kind of thing). Anything she needs to do with me (reading, spelling and math) won't go in there, only the stuff she needs to get done in the hour or so she has. When we start our one-on-one work I'll quickly go through her papers and anything that's not done will need to be done by screen time - or she'll have to do it instead of screen time. I don't like to take away from time spent playing outside because that's a priority for our family, but I have no problems taking away from screen time lol.

 

A lot of this is the same as last year, but sitting down for a "grown up" planning meeting and the planner itself are new. There's nothing else my complainer wants more than to be treated as a grown up (we're working on the concept that if *that's* what she wants, she needs to *act* more grown up - you don't see many grown ups complaining and whining when they have to get someething done. At least not in our house ;) ) I'm hoping this helps a bit? Something to think about.

[Tawlas]

critter, I admire your empathy and sense of humour - and the practical, supportive way you tackle these pesky problems. I keep repeating what SWB says in several of her talks and interviews: "You are teaching people, not cogs in a machine". You remind of this all the time too :) I think this would also help my kids! Thank you!

[CatholicSteph]

We kept a blank schedule in a sheet protector. It had a block for every subject and a few extras, along with space for when the task could be expected to be done by and when it was actually done. Morning meeting had him filling in the subjects in whatever preferred order he wanted. I was available to work with him as needed, but setting his own schedule was the first step to learning independence in this area.

 I'm experimenting more with this this year. I think I may allow her to choose MWF and I will choose Tues and Thurs. The only problem with her doing it is that she's always been a enjoy-now-suffer-later kid. She ordered the subjects yesterday from most favorite to most hated, so by the end of the day every activity was less enjoyable than the last. BUT I so think it's a good lesson.I'm more of a get-math-out-of-the-way person. 

[CatholicSteph]

This is definitely something you work on gradually over time. Things that helped here with dragging the feet:

 

I sat down and showed my kids how long each subject should take, and the whole plan for the day. Then I showed them that, if they worked diligently, school could be done by x o'clock, and the rest of their time after that was free time. Did they want more free time? 

 

Okay, well in order for that to happen, we needed to work together. Now, what happens if, during math, you tune out, look out the window, stop working when I go to the bathroom etc...? That's right, you actually just gave up some of your freetime later when you could do something really fun! 

 

Then, I made it concrete. I would tell them, "Okay, you have X minutes to do math." and let them do it. When X minutes were up, I'd see where they were. If almost done, I gave them 5-10 minutes to finish. If they were a long way from done, I said, "Time for history. You can do the rest of your math during your free time for homework." Move on no matter how much she complains (but do let her know ahead of time that this is the plan). 

 

At the end of school, announce that it's free time unless she has homework. Homework at our house was done at the kitchen table (not sprawled on the floor, laying on a couch etc... which were options for other subjects). Usually the first time both of my kids got homework, they let it last 2-3 hours, but after that, if they got homework, they got it done quickly so they could go play. 

 

 

I absolutely love the homework idea and I wish I'd thought if it sooner!!! It will take her a while to get used to it, and I know there will be wailing and whining the first few times she does it, but I need to just enforce it and walk away. I've lectured and informed over and over that, when she drags her feet she's giving up free time, but this is way more concrete, AND doesn't force ME to lose my whole day to school. Thank you!

[CatholicSteph]

Have you listened to SWB's lecture on this subject? It's on the PHP site. She lays out the baby steps you need to follow to lead to independent learners.

 No, I have several of her lectures, but I didn't know there was one on this topic. Thanks!

[...................]

1. A planner I write out just for her with clear and do-able directions.

2. Accountable Kids system

3. Textbooks - sorry but they are the best way to foster a sense of independence and confidence with clear instructions, page numbers, etc.

 

I also ensure they have constant access to ONLY high quality reading material, not much TV, and high quality non fiction books so they have a habit of refining their mind as a past time not just a chore.

 

At this point I believe my 8th grader is more widely read and educated than I was upon high school Graduation. My 6th grader is not far off. So, I don't think textbooks have hurt them for use as their main "core" curriculum the past few years.

[...................]

Oh yeah, and I wanted to add that 4th grade is possibly too young. You should start teaching her this year to use and check off the planner with you. You can also teach her to date her work and put page numbers and that type of thing, so you can work towards it.

 

My son, a Competent Carl, was ready for almost full Independece in 4th grade.

 

My dd, a Sociable Sue, is only ready now in 6th grade but we still do literature together because she is sociable and needs that cuddle and read time. I also do spelling with her because she uses a program which absolutely requires it and struggles a lot in spelling.