Completely shifting methods...what is wrong with me?

[momee]

I've used MP succesfully for three years now (preK, K, 1) and am about to use 2.

 

Trouble is I keep looking longingly at Ambleside.  I know right, how much further in methodology can I get?

 

But those simple days of reading, enjoying books and exploring nature seem bliss compared to looking at the stack of workbooks I have in front of me.

 

Now don't get me wrong.  Those workbooks have been awesome.  I appreciate the schedule when I haven't ordered ahead from the library or don't feel like reading aloud (for months!) and MP is just starting to ramp up in academics and our days will be very full which is a good thing.

 

I don't know, I guess I just want to talk to someone besides my husband about it and my friends, well.  I don't really talk homeschooling with any lately.

 

ps I'm on my last of 4 students and I guess I want to look back at memories/experiences with joy and relish the quickly passing days.  BUT there is alot to be said for academic success too - and we are more successful - I would say - with a box and a checklist than options, lol.

[EmilyGF]

ABJ (I think that is her name on the board) uses MP full curriculum and Ambleside as a read aloud.

 

Those booklists aren't relaxing if you are narrating EVERY.SINGLE.READING. (Which is what you do if you aren't filling out work sheets.)

 

Emily

[prairiewindmomma]

It's ok to change things up! Curricula are tools for learning, not taskmasters. You are the one driving the bus!

[Critterfixer]

Are you planning? I do that every year that I sit down to plan out the year's work. I also usually go to MP and drool over the full year's curriculum. And after I've done both things, and re-read the section on Logic Stage in TWTM, and then gone through The Latin Centered Curriculum book, and agonized, thought and dreamed, I get my act together and write out something that actually works for the kids I've got.

[Ellie]

We all change. Perhaps your own philosophy of education has changed and AO looks much more interesting to you now. Or maybe your mother's heart knows that your children will be better served with AO. Or whatever. :-)

[Penelope]

Several times per year, I stare longingly at the booklists and curriculum plans from MP. Especially the upper level scope and sequence. But doing the entire packages isn't what appeals to me and what I think would work best for my children, without lots of changes. So I get inspiration from there, but just use some of the MP products in a way that works for us.

 

If workbooks are what works for you and your child but they are too much, change things up. Do some of them orally. Or sometimes, instead of filling out the comprehension questions, ask for an oral (or written narration), discussing the questions with them if needed.

 

You know, I haven't been to the Highlands Latin School, but I often think that things would be a little different at the school even using the same materials. They have real live teachers who would presumably be adding content of interest, or mixing things up in different ways. I kind of can't imagine a school where it is ALL of those workbooks every day. Or maybe they do some for homework and use class for activities sometimes. I don't know. But my point is, you are in charge and you may be able to tweak MP to your liking better, if the structure otherwise works well for you.

 

Personally, for me, AO would be just as hard, maybe harder, to implement as MP would be. Charlotte Mason is rigorous, if you are doing all the parts. Like EmilygF said, even reading the books may feel like school to some kids when they have to narrate and write about them. But you might love it! Your kids are young enough that you could try it out for a while and still go back to MP or something else if it doesn't work for you.

[momee]

TBH, I think I don't want to do school but read and play with my kids all day.

(summer daydreaming I guess...)

 

[fourisenough]

I think about half of the MP subjects (a full core) is all I could stomach. That paired with the pieces of AO that appeal to you could make for a nicely balanced year. What about doing half & half?

[EmilyGF]

If you've used it successfully, what makes you want to change? Was it successful (boxes checked off) but miserable? Successful (they mastered it) but unpalatable?

 

Emily

[Heidi]

You could use some of the books from MP in a charlotte mason kind of way. I follow MP's classical study schedule, and sometimes I've used the workbooks and sometimes I just have them write a narration, and sometimes I go over comprehension questions orally.

[CadenceSophia]

I "looked longingly" at  AO for years until we were finally ready to do it... and then came the tears! Oh the tears. And the deaths, and the battles, even in Year 1. Nope, it was not as idyllic as I had envisioned. You don't need AO to curl up on the couch and read great books. Can you drop or minimize something to leave more room in the day for reading? I especially enjoy light fiction/fantasy reading with my kids. Far better to read them something that makes them excited than read 50 famous stories retold and try to draw out a narration.

[momee]

Such great thoughts everyone.  Thanks for the input.

 

Nothing about MP is unbearable.  In fact, she is doing very very well with it.  Reading ahead of where I thought she would be.  Not complaining even about Rod and Staff math (though she's loved the little bit of Rightstart we are doing).  I am very impressed with all of their materials.  "No gaps" was a term we threw around as homeschoolers back in the day (though that's really an impossible request)...but I feel like we're gap"less" regarding academics when using it.

 

Really she's a compliant, perfect candidate for MP's learning styles.  Loves the handwriting, memory work, all of it.

 

I guess I just dream that AO is going to give me afternoons of handwork, tea and idk...blissfull school days. Thanks for the reminder that it's just another choice and is something I can incorporate parts of.  I've been working on it all summer actually:  SCM's pond and bird studies, handwork projects, art study already in MP, and Homegrown Preschooler's curricula adapted for 2nd grade, etc.

 

 

[enchantedhome]

I have spent 3 years looking at/studying AO, actually did a year of it, and now that I am planning out the year for my two, I had a complete panic attack about it, returned a bunch of books, and am doing a much more WTM inspired year. AO is lovely in theory, but for us, the book choices felt stifling, dry, restrictive. Narration is great as one tool, but as the whole of what you ask a child to do? Also, I was not comfortable holding off on any required writing until Year 4. My goal of education isn't only college for my kids, of course, but I want them to be confident writers, and I was very concerned AO would be too simplistic in that regard. I ultimately didn't like the feeling I had that I was tied down to doing exactly what Mason said, which is what AO requires of you, in order to know you are doing it "right." The folks on the forum are very strict about this, and it all began to feel a bit joyless to me.

 

Anywho, maybe something in my ramblings is helpful to you? I don't love workbooks either, but a rigorous classical education that's going well? I'd throw in more delightful fiction here and there and stick with what's working! The grass ain't greener!

[momee]

"Narration is great as one tool, but as the whole of what you ask a child to do? "

 

I've gone back and forth about classical vs CM for a while.  This has always been what's drawn me back to scratching everything and picking up the WTM book to get my bearings again, lol.

Thanks for the reminder.

 

And yes, classical has been going great for her.

[Bluegoat]

I have spent 3 years looking at/studying AO, actually did a year of it, and now that I am planning out the year for my two, I had a complete panic attack about it, returned a bunch of books, and am doing a much more WTM inspired year. AO is lovely in theory, but for us, the book choices felt stifling, dry, restrictive. Narration is great as one tool, but as the whole of what you ask a child to do? Also, I was not comfortable holding off on any required writing until Year 4. My goal of education isn't only college for my kids, of course, but I want them to be confident writers, and I was very concerned AO would be too simplistic in that regard. I ultimately didn't like the feeling I had that I was tied down to doing exactly what Mason said, which is what AO requires of you, in order to know you are doing it "right." The folks on the forum are very strict about this, and it all began to feel a bit joyless to me.

 

 

 

AO is much better IMO if you don't take the people there too seriously.

 

But as far as oral narration being the only thing required, that isn't really true.  It's the main kind of composition required in the early years, yes, though it can be done in various ways - the point is that composition is oral because the mechanical writing skills are not at level for the child's ability to compose yet.   Mechanical writing skills are covered through copywork and studied dictation.  Once the child transitions to written composition over a period of time, narration continues to change as well so that in later years it is much more like essay writing - explaining the meaning, comparing and contrasting, making an argument, and so on.

 

[Penelope]

It sounds like the ideal picture in your head might be more like Sonlight than Ambleside: read lots of books, slightly easier books (compared with AO, MP, TWTM) that kids tend to like. No written response required. Whether that is really what you want and whether that results in the education you want your children to have, is the question.

 

P.s. I'm considering MP for one child and looking at the first and second grade programs right now. Is the phonics part easily skippable for a child that already knows how to read? Or is is incorporated into the literature and everything else. How much writing is required without the phonics? Thanks!

[momee]

"I'm considering MP for one child and looking at the first and second grade programs right now. Is the phonics part easily skippable for a child that already knows how to read? Or is is incorporated into the literature and everything else. How much writing is required without the phonics? Thanks! "

 

Any of their parts is easily skippable.

 

I like the amount of writing, that is so variable I can't answer for you.  You can leave off anything, make anything oral discussion, etc.  So if you are leaning towards it, I say go for it.  I love it, really.  It allows me to live and homeschool instead of school taking all my time to plan/buy/prepare/etc.

[Kfamily]

AO is much better IMO if you don't take the people there too seriously.

 

But as far as oral narration being the only thing required, that isn't really true.  It's the main kind of composition required in the early years, yes, though it can be done in various ways - the point is that composition is oral because the mechanical writing skills are not at level for the child's ability to compose yet.   Mechanical writing skills are covered through copywork and studied dictation.  Once the child transitions to written composition over a period of time, narration continues to change as well so that in later years it is much more like essay writing - explaining the meaning, comparing and contrasting, making an argument, and so on.

 

 

 

Sigh...I agree.

 

While I agree that AO does hold true to CM in many ways, I would also contend that they neglect some areas. I'm going to really put myself out there right now and say that I think that AO does more damage to CM, and those who would like it to work for them, then probably intended. I just wish they would be more specific about the role that writing plays in a CM education by clarifying how narrations work, discussing how everything-from habits to copywork to dictation-focuses on different writing skills which all tie together and expounding the idea that narrations are NOT retellings only. I wrote a whole blog post in frustrated response to this. 

 

 http://www.amindinthelight.blogspot.com/search/label/Narration

 

Narrations for beginning writers might include: orally telling about what they've listened to or have read for themselves, describing a character, sharing their favorite scene, acting out a scene, drawing a picture, writing a list with their teacher comparing one character's actions to another's, dictating their thoughts about the motivations of a character or historical figure, drawing a map, writing a letter or dictating a letter to a friend narrating about a particular event or science invention, dictating questions they would like to ask about the reading to their teacher and many more variations. As your writer moves from a beginner to a more accomplished writer and then to a fully developed writer, the variations should alter to meet their new skill levels Ultimately, a fully developed writer should be able to express themselves on various topics and in various ways (persuasively, informatively, biographically, etc.) and be ready for college.

[Bluegoat]

Sigh...I agree.

 

While I agree that AO does hold true to CM in many ways I would also contend that they neglect some areas. I'm going to really put myself out there right now and say that I think that AO does more damage to CM, and those who would like it to work for them, then probably intended. I just wish they would be more specific about the role that writing plays in a CM education by clarifying how narrations work, discussing how everything-from habits to copywork to dictation-focuses on different writing skills which all tie together and expounding the idea that narrations are NOT retellings only. I wrote a whole blog post in frustrated response to this. :)

 

Narrations for beginning writers might include: orally telling about what they've listened to or have read for themselves, describing a character, sharing their favorite scene, acting out a scene, drawing a picture, writing a list with their teacher comparing one character's actions to another's, dictating their thoughts about the motivations of a character or historical figure, drawing a map, writing a letter or dictating a letter to a friend narrating about a particular event or science invention, dictating questions they would like to ask about the reading to their teacher and many more variations. As your writer moves from a beginner to a more accomplished writer and then to a fully developed writer, the variations should alter to meet their new skill levels Ultimately, a fully developed writer should be able to express themselves on various topics and in various ways (persuasively, informatively, biographically, etc.) and be ready for college.

 

My feeling about AO is always that what is good about it is the stuff that is really purely lifted from CM's own methods. And a lot of it is, because the creators have really read and looked at the details of CM's methods. But I am also fairly sure that there are aspects of her thinking that seem to have really just been missed, and sometimes they cause the application to seem incomplete or misguided.

[HomeAgain]

If you want to do AO, I'd suggest reading a Charlotte Mason Companion.  It focuses more on the joy and how to pick resources, train habits, etc. 

 

 

We are very lucky to have a CM school in the area that I toured this past year.  I spent about 4-5 hours there over the course of a few days (with the principal's & teachers' blessings and encouragement!) and found that how they applied CM's teachings was very beneficial to the kids.  In every room I saw children working happily and diligently, ready to come chat or talk to me about their work and what they did that year.  No 'living book' was drudgery, it was absorbing and thought provoking.  I think this is where AO misses quite a bit.  They pick a book because they think they should, with little wiggle room for parents.  The program seems disjointed when written down and confined instead of a conversation between teachers and learners.

[SeekingHim77]

I use AO as a resource. Some of their books are just wonderful! I've been introduced to many treasures that I would have never found on my own. I've found I enjoy AO as another resource to pull ideas and recommendations from but not as a complete curriculum.

 

Then again, I've never been successful at using any complete curriculum as written. :-\ I think the key for most homeschool moms is being able to pick and choose from various methods and programs to find the fit that works best for your family-or a particular child.

 

I am definitely a die hard Charlotte Mason homeschooler. I love her methods and I have seen the fruit of using them consistently. The thing about CM methods is that you have to have faith in the process and patiently wait for the fruit to manifest over time. It's not so much about the child's skills at a certain age as it is about the growth of those skills over the course of their education. The fruit of copywork, dictation, and oral and written narration will ripen in due course but it takes consistency and time.

[EmilyGF]

I went to the conference of the Charlotte Mason Institute this year and spent 4 hours in a session on narration. Yes. It goes way way way beyond tell-it-back. The first part included information on the science of telling it back. I had lunch with my MIL, who knows nothing of CM but is a reading interventionalist in the public schools, and she went on and on about how schools know that telling it back is the best things kids can do but how they can't do that in the classroom.

 

What was really neat was the part of the talk was looking at 12 years worth of writing samples of two kids - one a "natural" writer, the other suffering from dysgraphia, I believe. The samples began as recordings and progressed in amazing ways, including a 5-minute video of "How to rebuild a lawn tractor" complete with video editing and appropriate background music, a retelling of a play in the form of a Shakespearian sonnet, and various technical drawings. One included a time-line of King Charles and Oliver Cromwell written and rewritten to make the format clearer. By the end, the questions being discussed were very deep and involved, by both students.

 

Both students started written narrations in 4th grade and went beyond, "What happened?" type questions beginning in 6th or 7th. Some of the narration ideas ("Tell the story back in the form of a Shakespearian sonnet") were taken directly from CM exams given by the PNEU. SeekingHim77 hit the nail on the head, though. You have to trust the process enough to do it, every day, for years. 

 

Emily

 

 

[Amy Jo]

There are similarities between AO & MP - some of the books are the same, and some authors are the same for both. So you probably aren't as far off as you think you are. :) I just thought I'd point to this fairly extensive blog series about CM-style narration, since people were wondering.

 

http://thecommonroomblog.com/2015/06/charlotte-mason-grammar-and-composition-grades-7-9.html

 

(At the bottom of this post several others are linked.)

[FO4UR]

AO and MP are cousins, both direct descendants of Classical Education in the old sense.  Read Consider This by Karen Glass.  

 

 

AO's aim is to recreate what CM actually did with inexpensive (public domain when possible) resources.  They are actively revising and adding helpful resources every year. 

 

MP is written for HIghland's Latin School, which is pretty amazing and I would send my kids there in a heartbeat if I lived close enough.

 

 

MP's reading is probably easier done by a child who isn't used to "old" literature from early on.  Someone up thread derided 50 Famous Stories from AO, and I had to chuckle b/c all 3 of my big kids found those stories to be some of their favorites. AO Year 1 really should be prepped by AO Year 0 and some reading of the King James Bible...or NKJV.  It's the flow of the complex sentences and the older vocabulary that throws many off.  If you try to jump in from something like Sonlight to AO, yeah, there is going to be an "ACK!" I don't understand this book reaction.  Small children learn to understand complex language naturally.  So, if you are going to switch, make the switch young and maybe put your 2nd grader in AO Y1.

 

I have drooled over MP too.  I came super close to purchasing it for my dd last year, tbh.  In the end, I want the focal point to be the living things...the literature, art, music, nature, etc.  I want the skills to be driven by the desire to take part in those living things.  (MP seems to focus on the skill, and the living things take a lesser place in the curriculum.)  Understand that my oldest is dyslexic (NEEDS the living things to trump the tedium) and my dd10 is a natural reader/writer (only needs a nudge and she's got it), and that is why a true CM curriculum is working for me.  Again, my dd10 has been raised in a CM home since she can remember....does CM work for her b/c she's so smart?  (As a biased mom, I might like that answer.  LOL)  Or does reading/writing come so naturally b/c she has been raised in a CM home?  Chicken or the Egg?

 

All of that said, AO is not the only way to achieve a CM education.  Read When Children Love to Learn.  (I have wanted to open a CM school ever since reading that book.)

 

 

Also, I encourage anyone interested in understanding CM's methods for narration to read CM's Vol 3, the chapter on How to Deal with School Books.  There are many misconceptions floating around.  I wrote a blog post on narration.