Dropping Piano?

[Farrar]

Our schedule is crazy overbooked and I've been thinking that at the end of the year, we would drop piano. BalletBoy already plays in a marimba ensemble and Mushroom wants to try voice lessons, which would probably be a good idea given his love of acting and the propensity for acting opportunities for kids to involve singing. I was basically just waiting for the recital in June.

 

But now I've been having second thoughts. They've been doing piano for two years. They both enjoy it okay though neither really loves it. They're both pretty musical, at least, in my totally untrained musical opinion. I mean, I get the whole brother boy band thing now and how that happens - they're always messing around and harmonizing and making up songs together like an improv performance.

 

I guess I'm having trouble teasing out all the issues. I'm not sure how much of my feeling is because I'm also not super happy with our teacher. I like her and I like that she has a gentle approach. On the other hand, I wish she was clearer with the kids and pushed them a little more. We've moved super slowly it seems. Two years and we're only in the second book. And she seems to have very little knowledge of the sort of pop songs and classic rock and musicals that my kids know and like, which means they never really connect about music. Plus, she has zero enthusiasm for BalletBoy's love of playing by ear. He's always messing around playing video game and pop songs for fun and trying to write his own music. I know he's never likely to be a professional so it seems to me that this is really something to tap into. But I think she couldn't care less. She's very sweet, but also sort of flat in that calm way, you know?

 

So now I'm thinking maybe we just need a break and a new teacher. Except that doesn't really solve our overscheduling problems for next year.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Our schedule is crazy overbooked and I've been thinking that at the end of the year, we would drop piano. BalletBoy already plays in a marimba ensemble and Mushroom wants to try voice lessons, which would probably be a good idea given his love of acting and the propensity for acting opportunities for kids to involve singing. I was basically just waiting for the recital in June.

 

But now I've been having second thoughts. They've been doing piano for two years. They both enjoy it okay though neither really loves it. They're both pretty musical, at least, in my totally untrained musical opinion. I mean, I get the whole brother boy band thing now and how that happens - they're always messing around and harmonizing and making up songs together like an improv performance.

 

I guess I'm having trouble teasing out all the issues. I'm not sure how much of my feeling is because I'm also not super happy with our teacher. I like her and I like that she has a gentle approach. On the other hand, I wish she was clearer with the kids and pushed them a little more. We've moved super slowly it seems. Two years and we're only in the second book. And she seems to have very little knowledge of the sort of pop songs and classic rock and musicals that my kids know and like, which means they never really connect about music. Plus, she has zero enthusiasm for BalletBoy's love of playing by ear. He's always messing around playing video game and pop songs for fun and trying to write his own music. I know he's never likely to be a professional so it seems to me that this is really something to tap into. But I think she couldn't care less. She's very sweet, but also sort of flat in that calm way, you know?

 

So now I'm thinking maybe we just need a break and a new teacher. Except that doesn't really solve our overscheduling problems for next year.

 

Well, I am going to recommend finding a new teacher, but keeping the lessons. Perhaps you could do them every other week to ease up scheduling, and alternate with voice lessons.  There is no hard fast rule that lessons must be weekly.  We sometimes stop lessons for a month during particularly busy times such as final play rehearsal weeks etc.  

 

Piano is very helpful for voice students in the long run, it is also good for other instruments as well.  Not to mention the benefits to cognitive skills, math and other "stuff".

 

I am trying to figure out how to juggle too much next year too. :(

[Angie in VA]

As the mom of two kids who play music, I hope you can find a good (new, as a PP said?) teacher and continue w/ lessons. Easy for me to say, though. And my kids run me ragged w/ all their activities. I only have myself to blame, but I can relate. 

 

DD is a music major in college. My biggest regret? Not having her take piano lessons too. She needs that knowledge for music theory and to pass several levels of piano proficiency to earn her degree. Perhaps Ballet Boy will major in musical theater and will need those piano skills and/or music theory? 

 

Ds has no interest in pursuing music professionally, but I think it's good to know theory and I believe all musicians are brilliant. I mean, they take those little black dots on that lined paper and make beautiful sounds come out of their instruments! That said, I could talk him into a local music theory class before I could piano lessons, I'm betting.

 

Also, dd is always looking for an accompanist at school. Now, some (most? ALL?) SoM's have lists of accepted accompanists that the students must choose from, but perhaps your kids would continue and get money on the side in college by playing piano. There are also weddings, recitals to play for, etc. 

 

I totally get paring down a schedule though. Maybe a break would make one or both realize how much piano is missed. You never know. My dd dragged out her violin after a few years w/o lessons and practiced every day, asking if she could take lessons again. As of finishing her honors statistics final this morning, she's half way through her undergraduate degree and becoming a music teacher. :)

 

Look at me arguing both sides. Who do I think I am? Brett Favre? 

[Guest]

I am going to say find a new teacher.  If you have any colleges around, maybe an undergrad music student (with some teaching experience preferably) but whose passion is jazz/pop/composing/non-traditional playing.  I've gone with a traditional classical teacher for DS's piano, but someone totally different for his violin and it's working out nicely.  Make your lessons fit you; don't try to mold yourself into what you think lessons should be.

[Peaceful Isle]

I would keep the lessons.

 

I used to think my dds teacher was going slow, but she was just making sure they were understanding technic, theory, fingering, and all the other wonderful things about piano. I play myself, so I know how important it is to get a solid foundation. Usually one level/ book a year is normal. Playing by ear only comes after they have a good, solid grasp of reading notes, timing, and have gone through to more intermediate levels.

 

I would talk to your teacher about the other styles your children want to learn. See if she is willing to broaden her style. Many teachers are only comfortable with certain styles. If she is not, then find another teacher.

 

Slow and steady is not always a bad thing.

[AK_Mom4]

DD13 had a similar teacher - nice, competent, but not willing to let her play harder or fun music at all.  Moving too slowly made it so DD did not even want to practice.

 

A new (more advanced) teacher with a love of modern music and a willingness to let DD move forward as fast as she masters the music has made all the difference.

 

In your case, I would take a break from piano lessons.  3 months?  5 months?  Get your new schedule worked out and THEN see if piano lessons would fit and find a new teacher.  DD13's main instrument is a saxophone these days, but she has had some great opportunities filling in on percussion parts because she plays piano and is fluent in both clefs.  However, DD21 is a music major and never touched a keyboard until she was 17yo.  She's a decent piano player now (has to be for college!) but learned it all late.  

 

Which is just to say that taking a break from piano lessons is not a bad thing.

[kirstenhill]

I'll put another vote in for taking a short break, then looking for a new teacher. We did that for my DD with guitar at the end of last summer, and it has made a big difference for her. She enjoys lessons so much more with a teacher that is a better personality fit and is better in-tune with the types of music my daughter is interested in learning. Her first teacher kept giving her song after song to learn (just chords) to the detriment of really teaching her out of the book that focused on really learning to read music and know notes on the strings, so DD pretty much had to start over again at the first book to really learn some of the techniques properly, and she is just finishing the first book now after 2.5 years...so two books in two years sounds pretty good! (And I know guitar is different, because she also knows just about every common chord and can play a lot of songs...she just made slow progress on the other aspects of learning to play besides chords.)

[wintermom]

The first couple years of learning any instrument, especially first the first time, seem to go slow. Think about all the things your young children are learning; reading notes on a staff, indentifying notes on the keyboard, counting rhythm, timing of various notes and rests, finger technique, etc. And then they have to put all this information together. New elements are added, which build on the existing knowledge. It takes a lot of time, and the amount and quality of practice along the way effects learning, too.

 

The typical piano education books don't have a lot of pop songs, but there are beginner books with more pop/musical songs you can buy and supplement the dc's lessons. You can tell the piano teacher that you'd like to widen the repetoire to include some of these. You could also ask if she would be willing to take time to support your ds's original compositions, perhaps by teaching him how to write out the music and add chords. If she's not willing to open the lessons to additional items of interest, then it may be time to look for a teacher who is. 

 

I agree with the PPs who suggest keeping up with music lessons. IMO, they really are worth the time, effort and money. Piano is a great instrument to begin learning the fundementals of music, but at some point a child may thrive with a different instrument. Piano can be a lonely instrument, and it also takes a fairly high level of skill before one is able to accompany singing or other instruments. My dc have moved on from piano to violin or guitar, as well as being part of choirs and concert band. They quickly picked up the basics of playing trumpet, and they have finely developed ears for singing. At some point in time, they may return to more formal piano playing, or simply use the keyboard for supporting their music theory education. 

 

 

[SKL]

I am at a similar crossroads.  I have decided to drop the current program once school is out.  (We took last summer off too, so it won't seem mean.)  I may consider starting with another teacher, if we can find one that is really convenient for us to use, who can motivate them to progress without stressing us all out.  But most likely, we will take a break from piano lessons for at least the next school year.

 

My kids qualify for school band this coming year, so this seems to be a good time to transition.  We can always continue playing the piano informally.

[MerryAtHope]

If there is ANY chance at all that your kids might go on in music (or even want it for a hobby), I wouldn't drop piano, especially for the one interested in voice. It's so versatile and helpful that unless they didn't like it, I'd continue. Sorry that doesn't help, but I do vote for finding a new teacher :-).

[HS Mom in NC]

Our schedule is crazy overbooked and I've been thinking that at the end of the year, we would drop piano. BalletBoy already plays in a marimba ensemble and Mushroom wants to try voice lessons, which would probably be a good idea given his love of acting and the propensity for acting opportunities for kids to involve singing. I was basically just waiting for the recital in June.

 

Clearly you know you need to drop something.  Keep that in mind. You know you're over scheduled and over scheduled is a bad thing that affects everything else. Which activity(ies) you need to drop is for you to decide.

 

But now I've been having second thoughts. They've been doing piano for two years. They both enjoy it okay though neither really loves it. They're both pretty musical, at least, in my totally untrained musical opinion. I mean, I get the whole brother boy band thing now and how that happens - they're always messing around and harmonizing and making up songs together like an improv performance.

 

Many people sign their kids up for piano without clarifying their goals.  What's your goal?  To expose them to music? Any instrument can do that.  To master an instrument?  Getting to an advanced level of piano usually takes at least 7 years of consistent instruction and practice for most people.  Is that what you and-or your kids had in mind?  If not, the piano might not be the right instrument for your situation.  A person can get to advanced levels of other instruments faster.

 

I guess I'm having trouble teasing out all the issues. I'm not sure how much of my feeling is because I'm also not super happy with our teacher. I like her and I like that she has a gentle approach. On the other hand, I wish she was clearer with the kids and pushed them a little more. We've moved super slowly it seems. Two years and we're only in the second book. And she seems to have very little knowledge of the sort of pop songs and classic rock and musicals that my kids know and like, which means they never really connect about music.

 

Most piano teachers who are teaching for mastery aren't going to be begin with pop music or classic rock. A guitar teacher might be more inclined to that if it's not Classical guitar.  Most piano teachers who do include it don't usually make it the primary focus.   What kinds of conversations did you have the teachers you considered when you were teacher shopping about style of music, philosophy, scope and sequence, technique, etc?  Did those teachers make a point to describe those things to you if you didn't ask?  A good one will.  A good one will explain to you what you can expect and ask what your expectations you have of them. 

 

Plus, she has zero enthusiasm for BalletBoy's love of playing by ear. He's always messing around playing video game and pop songs for fun and trying to write his own music. I know he's never likely to be a professional so it seems to me that this is really something to tap into. But I think she couldn't care less. She's very sweet, but also sort of flat in that calm way, you know?

 

Suzuki lessons are heavy on ear training from the beginning but it's classical music.   Traditional western piano teachers may never get to ear training.  What discussions did you have with the teacher about ear training when you were teacher shopping? Teachers that focus on different forms of jazz and applied music theory are more likely to incorporate lessons on writing music and improvisation.  Those are things you should specifically mention when interviewing potential teachers and asking for recommendations.

 

So now I'm thinking maybe we just need a break and a new teacher. Except that doesn't really solve our overscheduling problems for next year.

 

There are plenty of worthwhile things to do.  Just because they're worthwhile doesn't mean they're right for your situation.  You can't do most worthwhile things.  You can't do very many worthwhile things.  What do you and your children want most to do?  If you want to master any of those worthwhile things, it's unlikely you'll be able to commit to more than 2 or maybe 3 if you're really really lucky.  

 

[cherimoya]

Piano Maestro is an app that my kids use that has a variety of pop songs at different levels.  Your kids might like to do that on the side.

[Miss Tick]

Summer might be a time to "test-drive" a few teachers without having to commit. From the boys' perspective you could take the summer off from lessons, and then find 3 or 4 teachers to meet and try out. Then you can tell everyone that you will be making a decision in the fall and leave it there.

 

I know what you mean about overscheduling. How do you decide if piano lessons are more or less important than, say, Latin or Spanish or scheduling regular time for art or a fun, supplemental logic day for math.The times don't match exactly, the skills don't match exactly, it's all good, and we could probably do it all...

 

It does sound like you could use a new teacher, though.

[LaughingCat]

We moved to a new teacher last year by happenstance (old teacher moved ) - and wow!  what a difference!  Previous teacher was competent, older DD played ok but nothing special.   New teacher zooms right in on areas DD needs to work on, gives her individualized suggestions on how to practice (and spends a few minutes on music of DD's choice too!) -- her playing has improved by leaps and bounds.  People tell me DD is so talented and I laugh to myself -- the difference is all the teacher.   It was pure luck to find this teacher too -- don't know how you would find one on purpose.

[Farrar]

Thanks, guys. This is good. I guess I'm feeling like we'll take a break for a few months at least and maybe look at starting back with someone new next winter or so. I like the idea of finding someone who is flexible enough to let us do lessons when we have time and take a break during, say, Nutcracker or the couple of weeks around tech week for a show. Or have the boys switch off or something. And I like the idea of having every other week for lessons as well.

 

It's good to know that a book a year isn't unusual. It seems like everyone we know who started around the same time as us is in their fourth book or so, which is just sort of depressing to me, especially when I've seen the kids sit down and be able to play some of the things their friends who are supposedly more "advanced" are learning. It's just confusing. I do know that our teacher believes strongly in going slower for a solid foundation so they've done lots of sight reading and theory.

 

My goal for piano was mostly just exposure, but specifically to an instrument which, like everyone else is saying, would help them learn theory and so forth. I know that BalletBoy found it really much easier to pick up the basics of marimba in part because of his piano training. Our teacher is pretty traditional - I don't really expect it to be so much beyond the basics. But it feels weird to me that there's almost like a line between the music you learn for piano and all the other music in your life. I feel like it's clear that, at least for BalletBoy, he'd like it to be a sort of conversation. I've heard him play lots of his marimba music on piano (by ear) and I feel like it should be connected, even if it's just a little bit. But I don't feel like this teacher is so encouraging of that. It's more about attitude than substance. But sometimes that matters.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Thanks, guys. This is good. I guess I'm feeling like we'll take a break for a few months at least and maybe look at starting back with someone new next winter or so. I like the idea of finding someone who is flexible enough to let us do lessons when we have time and take a break during, say, Nutcracker or the couple of weeks around tech week for a show. Or have the boys switch off or something. And I like the idea of having every other week for lessons as well.

 

It's good to know that a book a year isn't unusual. It seems like everyone we know who started around the same time as us is in their fourth book or so, which is just sort of depressing to me, especially when I've seen the kids sit down and be able to play some of the things their friends who are supposedly more "advanced" are learning. It's just confusing. I do know that our teacher believes strongly in going slower for a solid foundation so they've done lots of sight reading and theory.

 

My goal for piano was mostly just exposure, but specifically to an instrument which, like everyone else is saying, would help them learn theory and so forth. I know that BalletBoy found it really much easier to pick up the basics of marimba in part because of his piano training. Our teacher is pretty traditional - I don't really expect it to be so much beyond the basics. But it feels weird to me that there's almost like a line between the music you learn for piano and all the other music in your life. I feel like it's clear that, at least for BalletBoy, he'd like it to be a sort of conversation. I've heard him play lots of his marimba music on piano (by ear) and I feel like it should be connected, even if it's just a little bit. But I don't feel like this teacher is so encouraging of that. It's more about attitude than substance. But sometimes that matters.

 

This makes me think perhaps a a university music department might be a good place to look for teachers, depending on the school both students and professors might offer lessons. My experience with students (overall) has been positive and they tend to really listen to what we want out of the lessons. Maybe because they haven't a set lesson style yet.

[Bluegoat]

I tend to agree with the others that piano is important for music theory.  But something you might look at maybe for a summer thing or term is some places offer something like a rock camp, where they put together groups of kids to play pop tunes.  It would be fun, but it would also give them some skills for fooling around with pop music together which they could easily use in other places. 

[ScoutTN]

This makes me think perhaps a a university music department might be a good place to look for teachers, depending on the school both students and professors might offer lessons. My experience with students (overall) has been positive and they tend to really listen to what we want out of the lessons. Maybe because they haven't a set lesson style yet.

Yes! We have a fun, young teacher who is also challenging and can meet my very different kids where they are. She teaches theory and encourages my kids in ear training too. She is about 8 yrs out from the local Univeristy music school and a singer wannabe (this is Nashville) who sings like Bonnie Raitt. She uses the Faber books which have performance and pop music books (as well as seasonal, hymns etc) at all the levels. Ds got to play a simplified Imperial March from Star Wars for his first recital. So fun!

[Suzanne in ABQ]

We were so lucky when my kids reached the same level as yours to find a teacher who taught piano *and* voice.  As an added bonus, he came to the house!  It was wonderful!  My niece came over, too, and we had two hours of "music lessons".  My two did piano, and my dd and niece did voice.  He taught from the piano course books (Faber/Faber for dd, and Alfred for ds), and used an awesome Disney songbook for voice.  He also found pop songs for piano that they liked.  He taught them how to write down their compositions.  He just followed their lead from week to week, focusing on whatever they were passionate about that day.  He was encouraging, and they always wanted to please him.  

 

We only had him for about a year and a half, but he saved my kids' love for music.  They had come to hate it after their previous teacher, who was dry and passionless.  Now, years later, they're both musicians, both playing and composing.

 

I wish I could package our teacher and send him to you.  I hope you can find someone like him.  Definitely call around and look for someone who can teach piano and beginning voice at the same time.  That would help so much with the scheduling issue.

 

(Edited grammar error.)

[Tsuga]

We have different things we're thinking of dropping, but I'm right there with you on so many of the general issues. I just wish you luck finding it out.

[Occasionally]

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[MerryAtHope]

But it feels weird to me that there's almost like a line between the music you learn for piano and all the other music in your life. I feel like it's clear that, at least for BalletBoy, he'd like it to be a sort of conversation. 

 

My daughter takes violin and voice from a woman who also teaches piano (she's very talented!) and it is much more like a "conversation" I feel. She seems to work hard to integrate the student's interests. Each year she does a recital with a theme. One year it was original compositions (the students all wrote their piece). That was amazing (and I'm sure a lot of work for her as she helped them with all the required composition skills). Another year it was "Broadway Musicals and Show Tunes"--almost all of the pieces were things commonly recognized (one of my favorites was the Pink Panther theme that one of her friends played on piano!). This past year she did classical, but again songs that stood the test of time and would be recognized (many of them have been used in movies, for example). She seems to have a knack for choosing something that will appeal to the student and yet work on theory etc... too. Anyway...might be worth looking around. 

[Sahamamama]

Our schedule is crazy overbooked and I've been thinking that at the end of the year, we would drop piano. BalletBoy already plays in a marimba ensemble and Mushroom wants to try voice lessons, which would probably be a good idea given his love of acting and the propensity for acting opportunities for kids to involve singing. I was basically just waiting for the recital in June.

 

But now I've been having second thoughts. They've been doing piano for two years. They both enjoy it okay though neither really loves it. They're both pretty musical, at least, in my totally untrained musical opinion. I mean, I get the whole brother boy band thing now and how that happens - they're always messing around and harmonizing and making up songs together like an improv performance.

 

I guess I'm having trouble teasing out all the issues. I'm not sure how much of my feeling is because I'm also not super happy with our teacher. I like her and I like that she has a gentle approach. On the other hand, I wish she was clearer with the kids and pushed them a little more. We've moved super slowly it seems. Two years and we're only in the second book. And she seems to have very little knowledge of the sort of pop songs and classic rock and musicals that my kids know and like, which means they never really connect about music. Plus, she has zero enthusiasm for BalletBoy's love of playing by ear. He's always messing around playing video game and pop songs for fun and trying to write his own music. I know he's never likely to be a professional so it seems to me that this is really something to tap into. But I think she couldn't care less. She's very sweet, but also sort of flat in that calm way, you know?

 

So now I'm thinking maybe we just need a break and a new teacher. Except that doesn't really solve our overscheduling problems for next year.

 

Hi, Farrar. I wanted to respond to this particular part of your question. Short answer: I would look for a different teacher, if decide to stick with piano.

 

Long answer: Many moons ago, I had this kind of teacher. She was gentle, calm, and sweet, but didn't assign any popular music. It was all classical. That's okay, up to a point (and for a certain type of focused student), but for me it was frustrating. Other kids would find out I was taking piano lessons and say, "So, what can you play? Here's a piano." I was required to memorize each piece, so I could sit down and play something. But when you're twelve and with your peers, it's a bit awkward to sit down and play a classical piece when they are expecting the theme to Simon and Simon or Magnum, P.I. :coolgleamA:

 

I see a few things here: 

• BB wants to play by ear; teacher is not enthusiastic. She probably wants him to focus his efforts more on reading music, but I think it's a mistake for a teacher to not also teach at least some playing by ear, as well as the basics of chords. I wish I had had better instruction in chords, not just playing piece after classical piece. And I do wish I'd had some instruction in how to play by ear.
• Boys want pop songs; teacher is not enthusiastic. Again, she may have her own personal preference for a different type of music, or feel it has more musical and pedagogical merit. However, I think that an occasional piece of something the boys have an interest in would be a better balance, though. Or, some music appreciation, along with the playing piece after piece. Since BB has an interest in ballet & theater, I wonder if he'd have an interest in learning to play these (as examples)?

http://www.boosey.com/pages/cr/catalogue/cat_detail.asp?musicid=4770

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheet-music/show/Oklahoma!/0

http://www.onlinesheetmusic.com/west-side-story-s2354.aspx

• BB wants to write his own music; not sure, but it doesn't sound as though the teacher has picked up on this interest. I think that at some point, every music student should be required to compose music, or at least "take dictation." It teaches and solidifies so much of music theory. Not that I'm any expert (at all), but the little bit of this that I was required to do in music class was so helpful in learning to read music. It's like what spelling and dictation do for reading skills.

Only you can decide when your schedule is too full, but if I were in your shoes and decided to continue with piano, I'd talk with the teacher. You are the customer, and you ought to be satisfied with what you are paying for. Let her know that you want to see X, Y, and Z change in your boys' lessons. If she's unresponsive, find another teacher who will provide what you're looking for.

 

 

 

 

[Farrar]

Sahamamama, yes, that's really what I - and the boys, I think- want. You summed it up well. I'm leaning toward breaking for a little while then picking it back up again, which will hopefully work out... Hopefully.