Fafsa - did anyone here not get any money?

[8filltheheart]

Lisa, what calculator did you run? Really, focus on individual schools' NPC. Many have built in merit-award numbers that you can't see on their websites. Many offer institutional grants. If things are straight-forward financially, they should be fairly accurate. (Ours were not last yr and it was awful getting things straightened out and at the end of the day, it was not worth the effort bc half of full price is still wayyyyyy tooooo much for us. So while it changed the numbers, they still weren't realistic.)

 

The area where NPCs fail is for merit that is not automatic. Those competitive scholarships require planning and applying. For ds, for example, the difference between automatic and competitive scholarships resulted in a net gain of about $13,000/yr.

[swimmermom3]

Lisa, what calculator did you run? Really, focus on individual schools' NPC. Many have built in merit-award numbers that you can't see on their websites. Many offer institutional grants. If things are straight-forward financially, they should be fairly accurate. (Ours were not last yr and it was awful getting things straightened out and at the end of the day, it was not worth the effort bc half of full price is still wayyyyyy tooooo much for us. So while it changed the numbers, they still weren't realistic.)

 

The area where NPCs fail is for merit that is not automatic. Those competitive scholarships require planning and applying. For ds, for example, the difference between automatic and competitive scholarships resulted in a net gain of about $13,000/yr.

 

We started with this EFC calculator on the College Board site.  Then we went to the individual NPC for the safety and the reach.

 

I have a lot of reading and thinking to do. Yes, I know that junior year is a bit late for those things. I think in an irrational way I am worried about "jinxing" things for the youngest since the older ones didn't go to college, which is a sentiment that is on par with my older kids who wouldn't talk to a teacher for the fear of looking dumb.

 

I am going to go read the stickies and threads on FAFSA and admissions and then come back with my questions on a new thread, except for one which I have to ask now.

 

Thank you for your post and a couple of other comments on affordability. You have eased this worried mother's heart to where I can at least stop doing the crazed chicken dance in the kitchen and settle in with my notebook and computer and get to work on a realistic plan.

 

[Teachin'Mine]

Lisa junior year is not late at all!  I'd look for schools which fit his needs, run the NPCs, and then see which ones would want a student like your son, from his geographic area too, enough to give him some good merit aid.  If I remember from a thread a while back, he wants one with a good sailing program and is interested in liberal arts colleges either in or near a city.  Is that right?  Liberal arts colleges typically have many more applications from women, so they do try to attract the guys to get a more balanced class. That could work in his favor.  If I remember right he's also a good student.  He should try to get his test scores as high as he can as a lot of merit aid is based on test scores.  If they're lower than his academic work indicates, look for test optional schools.  If you haven't already, try to visit a variety of schools locally just so he can get a feel for what he does and doesn't like - size, location, university, LAC, class sizes, etc.. 

 

Paying 40% of anyone's income would be outrageous IMO.  You can call the College Board and go over your CSS form as some of it isn't clear in how it should be answered.  It's possible that there's an error somewhere throwing off the results.   Even with the CSS, it's mostly based on income and savings and other resources factor in less, but do make a difference.  40% still seems excessive especially if it's dependent on tapping into home equity.

 

When looking at schools, some state schools have much lower tuition even for OOS students.  Some of those are a bargain if they're a good fit.  Some privates can be very generous with aid/merit especially if they want a particular student.  Run the NPCs on some of the highest ranking schools on his/your list to see how they look.  If he has a good in-state public which he likes and is affordable, he may want to do an overnight visit.   You want him to have safeties that he really likes and would be happy to attend.  Then the pressure is off when waiting on acceptances from the schools which are more of a reach for stats or financial reasons.

 

 

[NancyNellen]

Thanks, everyone, for your help.

[Only me]

We don't qualify for any grants but we still need to fill out the FAFSA every year so that my daughter will get her yearly merit scholarship. We also need it so that we can qualify for a parent loan and that she can get her student loan.

[JulieA97]

Also keep in mind that the NPC don't always present a full picture of what you may receive. I wouldn't necessarily decide to drop a school a child wants to attend due to the NPC. Really you won't know for sure until you have the financial aid offer in hand.

 

ETA: NPC uses the schools cost of attendance which includes tuition, books, fees, housing and transportation and the median of scholarships, and grants by EFC range ( some categories are pretty wide) for first time, full time students only. If it's a school with a decent mix of transfer students, adult students or students who attend less than full time, those won't be included which can skew the results.

[LMV]

I just filled out the Fafsa information - using the estimator, since we haven't filed our taxes yet.  

 

I am thinking it might just be a waste of my time & added paperwork (even though it's online)  :tongue_smilie:

 

Did anybody here fill it out & not receive a dime?  I didn't really want to fill it out, but everything I've read said 'Do it...you'd be surprised.'

 

Use the FAFSA forecaster and see how that works out.  If that makes it look like your child will be eligible for Federal Aid then you should definitely do the FAFSA.  If that looks like Federal Aid is unlikely but your child's desired school requires FAFSA (likely to ensure that they are not meeting a need that doesn't truly exist---ie. your child is actually eligible for some Federal Aid that they aren't claiming) before they will commit to any institutional money then you should fill out the FAFSA.  

 

Our eldest daughter is receiving an athletic scholarship so we didn't need to do the FAFSA.  Out of curiosity, I did take a few moments and work through the FAFSA forecaster that others shared on this thread.  That gave us a six figure EFC (roughly 2.5x the estimated cost of attendance at the Ivy DD15 is most strongly considering so perhaps there is something wrong).  Our projected EFC was also just under 25% of our adjusted gross income and I believe that is intended just for the child who the FAFSA is for so perhaps they are also expecting us to give six figures worth of college expenses to her older sister as well. We do have a chunk of assets (and I presume that we are intended to just sell one every year and use that money to pay tuition or perhaps to support their four soon to be five younger siblings at home).  I'm not complaining and we're prepared to fund our kids' college completely but using the forecaster and seeing how the algorithm works does help me to understand that the EFCs may not be completely realistic for many families and that some families just may not be able to contribute what they are expected. It also assured me that if DD15 does end up going to an Ivy where an athletic scholarship is not allowed then it will make no absolutely sense for us to bother with the FAFSA unless we have a significant change in our financial status or she wishes to apply as an independent student without our information (and I have some moral reservations about allowing her to do that).

[8filltheheart]

 she wishes to apply as an independent student without our information 

 

FWIW, it is very difficult to do that.  Students have to be over 24 or  married and independent.  

[JulieA97]

FWIW, it is very difficult to do that. Students have to be over 24 or married and independent.

Yes, married, supporting a child, over 24, orphan/ward of court (school will prob ask for documentation), etc. Doesn't matter if a parent claims a child on taxes or not which is something asked all.the.time. There are dependency overrides but those are only given in cases of documentable neglect, abuse or abandonment. It's very very difficult to be considered an independent student if you are younger than 24, single and childless.

[LMV]

FWIW, it is very difficult to do that.  Students have to be over 24 or  married and independent.  

 

Actually, she meets the criteria to apply as an independent even if she goes off to college unmarried at age seventeen (which is the current plan).  So, as it was pointed out to me on this forum before, it is perfectly legal to allow her to apply as an independent student; DH and I just don't believe that it is truly the most ethical approach. That is important to us, even if we end up paying 250K for that privilege. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

or she wishes to apply as an independent student without our information (and I have some moral reservations about allowing her to do that).

 

Nothing against you LMV but why do people think it is feasible for a child to become independent?  We have had to go through attorneys and the court system trying to get our daughter independent status and she is an unwed mother.  We were told being independent was a given once she had the baby.  It's not a given.

 

Maybe there are loopholes or processes of which we are unaware but it's been a difficult and expensive venture.

 

[LMV]

Yes, married, supporting a child, over 24, orphan/ward of court (school will prob ask for documentation), etc. Doesn't matter if a parent claims a child on taxes or not which is something asked all.the.time. There are dependency overrides but those are only given in cases of documentable neglect, abuse or abandonment. It's very very difficult to be considered an independent student if you are younger than 24, single and childless.

 

We've claimed her as a dependent on our taxes and will continue to until she leaves for college.  If we are paying for her college tuition and living expenses at college then we will continue to claim her through her college years.  If she ends up with an athletic scholarship so we aren't paying tuition or room and board, or she ends up using independent status for financial aid then we would not be providing sufficient support to consider her a dependent and would file accordingly.  Our eldest started college in the fall of 2013.  We did claim her on our 2013 taxes (and to be fair she lived at home 3/4 of 2013) but are allowing her to claim herself for 2014 taxes.  She is still our daughter, we (and her little sisters) were thrilled to have her home this past summer but we really are not providing the majority of her support anymore and it only seems fair to allow her to claim her own exemption.

[LMV]

Nothing against you LMV but why do people think it is feasible for a child to become independent?  We have had to go through attorneys and the court system trying to get our daughter independent status and she is an unwed mother.  We were told being independent was a given once she had the baby.  It's not a given.

 

Maybe there are loopholes or processes of which we are unaware but it's been a difficult and expensive venture.

 

 

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking here.  Our daughter meets the criteria to apply as an independent student.  That is just reality.  However, she also has parents who are in position to fund her college education so I feel that using her independent student status is a bit misleading. 

[8filltheheart]

Nothing against you LMV but why do people think it is feasible for a child to become independent? We have had to go through attorneys and the court system trying to get our daughter independent status and she is an unwed mother. We were told being independent was a given once she had the baby. It's not a given.

 

Maybe there are loopholes or processes of which we are unaware but it's been a difficult and expensive venture.

 

I agree. It is very difficult to be independent for FA. Our ds was married but b/c of the timing of when FAFSA was filed, he could not be considered independent even though he had been completely independent for over a yr.

 

According to FastWeb:

Undergraduate students who are under age 24 as of December 31 of the award year are considered to be dependent for federal student aid purposes unless they are married, have dependents other than a spouse, are an orphan, are a veteran or active duty member of the US Armed Forces or satisfy other very limited criteria. If a student who is under age 24 doesn’t satisfy one of these criteria, the odds of being considered independent are very slim.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking here.  Our daughter meets the criteria to apply as an independent student.  That is just reality.  However, she also has parents who are in position to fund her college education so I feel that using her independent student status is a bit misleading. 

 

I'm not asking anything.  I guess I am just confused as to why people think this is an easy process.  My daughter fits the criteria and we are having an uphill battle.  It's just not that simple. 

[justasque]

We've claimed her as a dependent on our taxes and will continue to until she leaves for college.  If we are paying for her college tuition and living expenses at college then we will continue to claim her through her college years.  If she ends up with an athletic scholarship so we aren't paying tuition or room and board, or she ends up using independent status for financial aid then we would not be providing sufficient support to consider her a dependent and would file accordingly.  Our eldest started college in the fall of 2013.  We did claim her on our 2013 taxes (and to be fair she lived at home 3/4 of 2013) but are allowing her to claim herself for 2014 taxes.  She is still our daughter, we (and her little sisters) were thrilled to have her home this past summer but we really are not providing the majority of her support anymore and it only seems fair to allow her to claim her own exemption.

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think that her status on your taxes (not being a dependent) is enough to qualify for independent student status.  The requirements (see also here) are quite stringent.  

 

 

[LMV]

I'm not asking anything.  I guess I am just confused as to why people think this is an easy process.  My daughter fits the criteria and we are having an uphill battle.  It's just not that simple. 

 

I don't think I ever commented on whether the process to have a child/young adult declared as independent was easy or hard. I know other kids in our daughter's situation who have had no problem being considered independent students so I suspect that the same would hold true for our daughter, because she does clearly meet the criteria. The youth I am referring to never had to do anything more than check the appropriate box on the FAFSA and then submit a copy of the official documentation. None of the families in question hired attorneys for assistance. One family I am thinking of did get some help on some of this from my husband but he wouldn't consider what he did for them legal work. Honestly, I think most of what he did was more geared to helping with college application process than the FAFSA really.  I guess we'll never know with certainty how easy or hard this would be for our daughter, because it is our intention for her to not go the independent student route.

[LMV]

I could be wrong, but I don't think that her status on your taxes (not being a dependent) is enough to qualify for independent student status.  The requirements (see also here) are quite stringent.  

 

 

 

I've never said that her status on our taxes has anything to do with independent student status.  It doesn't.  I said that:

-We will not claim our eldest daughter (DD19) who is a full time student in 2014 because we really are not providing the majority of her support.  She is attending college on an athletic scholarship which pays tuition plus room and board. 

-If DD15 were to opt to apply as an independent when she goes to college in  two years then we would also probably stop claiming her on our taxes at that point for the same reason (i.e.. we are not providing the majority of her support).

[bettyandbob]

I could be wrong, but I don't think that her status on your taxes (not being a dependent) is enough to qualify for independent student status.  The requirements (see also here) are quite stringent.  

 

 

 

 

When I was in college (early 80s) you could qualify for independent student status based on not being claimed on parents' taxes. I have friends who did that.

 

The rules have changed. I think some people don't realize how much the rules have changed and how hard it is for a student attending during the typical time period (18-22) to have the funds for college with no parental help.

 

I do hope people fill out the fafsa, even though they don't qualify for financial aid. Colleges have been asking for financial info for years in an effort to spread out their merit aid. My dad qualified for scholarships to UVA and Purdue in the 1950s. He was 17. My grandparents refused to fill out forms for UVA because it was a "party school" and Purdue because "they had no right to know about their finances". So, my dad had worked and saved enough to cover one year at Purdue. He was part of an honors program and the only person who got no money because the forms weren't filed. He didn't have the money to go back. He finished college elsewhere, while working full time.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I don't think I ever commented on whether the process to have a child/young adult declared as independent was easy or hard. I know other kids in our daughter's situation who have had no problem being considered independent students so I suspect that the same would hold true for our daughter, because she does clearly meet the criteria. The youth I am referring to never had to do anything more than check the appropriate box on the FAFSA and then submit a copy of the official documentation. None of the families in question hired attorneys for assistance. One family I am thinking of did get some help on some of this from my husband but he wouldn't consider what he did for them legal work. Honestly, I think most of what he did was more geared to helping with college application process than the FAFSA really.  I guess we'll never know with certainty how easy or hard this would be for our daughter, because it is our intention for her to not go the independent student route.

 

I never said you commented on it.  I have stated twice that my comments have nothing to do with you, simply the fact that it is not an easy process.  We checked the boxes; that opened up a barrel of monkeys.  For us, it has been difficult.  I am happy for the families you know where the process was smooth. It isn't that way for everyone.  It's part of an imperfect system.

[swimmermom3]

I could be wrong, but I don't think that her status on your taxes (not being a dependent) is enough to qualify for independent student status.  The requirements (see also here) are quite stringent.  

 

 

 

Our now 19yo son has completely supported himself since June 2014. It is my understanding that even if he continues to be completely self-supporting and decides to enter college in fall of 2016, he still would not be considered independent regardless of the fact that we haven't claimed him on our taxes and he's supported himself. He would still have to include us on his FAFSA, no?

 

[FaithManor]

Our now 19yo son has completely supported himself since June 2014. It is my understanding that even if he continues to be completely self-supporting and decides to enter college in fall of 2016, he still would not be considered independent regardless of the fact that we haven't claimed him on our taxes and he's supported himself. He would still have to include us on his FAFSA, no?

 

Yes, he will still have to file your info for FAFSA. The system is designed, maddeningly for many students, to get access to mom and dad's pocketbook. So, it's hard, under the age of 24, to be declared independent. Usually, it requires a marriage and even then, if they are only married for part of the year prior, may still have to give their parents information.

 

There are certain other circumstances, being a foster child, being a dependent of a legal guardian who is not a parent, so ie. if grandma and grandpa raised the student but did not adopt the student, then they probably would not have to enter their financial information, etc. I know of students who are single parenting children, living entirely on their own, and receive not one drop of financial support, and still can't get declared independent due to being under 24. This March my niece, in that exact set of circumstances, will actually be able to be independent. Her dad's income is very high, so she has not received a dime of federal or state grant money despite being as poor as a church mouse while trying to raise a child. One would think that four years of filing taxes for herself, and four years of legal addresses that are not her parents would be enough.

 

So, yes, plan on entering your information into FAFSA.

[Tsuga]

I don't think I ever commented on whether the process to have a child/young adult declared as independent was easy or hard. I know other kids in our daughter's situation who have had no problem being considered independent students so I suspect that the same would hold true for our daughter, because she does clearly meet the criteria...

 

I think the reason you're getting push-back is that very few students actually meet the very specific criteria for this.

 

You make it sound as if this were an option. Or something that others could somehow do without making a huge life change like joining the service or having a baby. Something that could possibly apply to an average high school grad. It's not like OP said "she's entering a doctoral program" or "she's getting married in the fall".

 

It's not supposed to be an option. It is not supposed to be something you could change without:

 

(a) Getting legitimately emancipated by proving serious neglect (I'm assuming that's not your case);

(b) Military service (no small thing);

(c ) Marriage (I'm guessing this is your case but I have no idea);

(d) Supporting a child (or it could be this--if she has a child or you're raising her child and she contributes?);

(e) Going to grad school but most people starting this process do not have a child entering a grad program, come on. And some grad programs don't even accept this--med school requires parents to pay for what feels like forever.

(f) Having a child who was actually "only" in your guardianship (foster grad) and not your child legally. (Not adopted. Not to diminish guardianship but legally it's an important distinction.)

 

The situations that allow a student under 24 to file independently are supposed to be very concrete and relatively rare for the unmarried, non-veteran, non-parent.

 

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sites/default/files/dependency-status.png

 

Put simply, the situation of students who qualify for independent status before 24 is so unusual, and deliberately so, that it is almost never relevant to bring them up on these threads. So your bringing it up along with "she claims herself as independent" is really odd. I'm not sure if you don't fully understand the politicized nature of this, or how unusual your situation is.

[8filltheheart]

-We will not claim our eldest daughter (DD19) who is a full time student in 2014 because we really are not providing the majority of her support. She is attending college on an athletic scholarship which pays tuition plus room and board.

 

This might not work for your dd. My understanding is that all the scholarship $$ beyond tuition exceeding the $6200 standard deduction will be taxed at the parental rate.

 

This is a response we received when inquiring about scholarships and taxes:

"For the purpose of the standard deduction, taxable scholarships are considered earned income so and students receive $6200 standard deduction. However, with a large amount of taxable scholarships, students need to file form 8615 for the kiddie tax. The amount over $2000 will be taxed at the parent's rate if higher. Taxable scholarships are considered unearned income for the purpose of the kiddie tax."

[justasque]

I've never said that her status on our taxes has anything to do with independent student status.  It doesn't.  I said that:

-We will not claim our eldest daughter (DD19) who is a full time student in 2014 because we really are not providing the majority of her support.  She is attending college on an athletic scholarship which pays tuition plus room and board. 

-If DD15 were to opt to apply as an independent when she goes to college in  two years then we would also probably stop claiming her on our taxes at that point for the same reason (i.e.. we are not providing the majority of her support).

 

Thank you for clarifying that.  I think it's important that others who are following this thread are not (inadvertently on your part) left thinking that independent student status has anything to do with whether mom & dad are financially supporting the student.

 

 

[LMV]

This might not work for your dd. My understanding is that all the scholarship $$ beyond tuition exceeding the $6200 standard deduction will be taxed at the parental rate.

 

This is a response we received when inquiring about scholarships and taxes:

"For the purpose of the standard deduction, taxable scholarships are considered earned income so and students receive $6200 standard deduction. However, with a large amount of taxable scholarships, students need to file form 8615 for the kiddie tax. The amount over $2000 will be taxed at the parent's rate if higher. Taxable scholarships are considered unearned income for the purpose of the kiddie tax."

 

You are correct that if athletic scholarships provide more than tuition and required fees then the portion beyond that is taxable.  Our daughter's university is kind enough to send her 1098s reporting the amount that was awarded as room and board and she reports that as a taxable scholarship in the appropriate place on her taxes.  She would have been required to file her own taxes since she was sixteen because she has had earned income since that period and earned income can never be reported on the parent's return. Even before that DH decided that having the kids file their own returns (which he prepares for them) and report their investment income is a better option for our family as a whole.  He does use form 8615 to determine what tax rate applies but they have rarely have they exceeded the threshold to be taxed at our rate. 

 

I actually don't believe our eldest will be hit with "kiddie tax" this year as she turned 19 before the end of 2014 and I believe her earned income will be high enough to avoid that even though she is a student.  DH hasn't helped her do her 2014 taxes yet so she may be hit with this (she was last year because her earned income was not high enough) but she earned quite a bit this summer so I think she will be ok. Even if she isn't she will be paying less taxes being able to claim her own personal exemption than if we claimed her as a dependent. Last year we took into account the hardship of our tax bracket and were a bit more generous with gifts than usual to make it up to her in a way.  We will probably do the same thing this year.

[LMV]

I think the reason you're getting push-back is that very few students actually meet the very specific criteria for this.

 

You make it sound as if this were an option. Or something that others could somehow do without making a huge life change like joining the service or having a baby. Something that could possibly apply to an average high school grad. It's not like OP said "she's entering a doctoral program" or "she's getting married in the fall".

 

It's not supposed to be an option. It is not supposed to be something you could change without:

 

(a) Getting legitimately emancipated by proving serious neglect (I'm assuming that's not your case);

(b) Military service (no small thing);

(c ) Marriage (I'm guessing this is your case but I have no idea); 

(d) Supporting a child (or it could be this--if she has a child or you're raising her child and she contributes?);

(e) Going to grad school but most people starting this process do not have a child entering a grad program, come on. And some grad programs don't even accept this--med school requires parents to pay for what feels like forever.

(f) Having a child who was actually "only" in your guardianship (foster grad) and not your child legally. (Not adopted. Not to diminish guardianship but legally it's an important distinction.)

 

The situations that allow a student under 24 to file independently are supposed to be very concrete and relatively rare for the unmarried, non-veteran, non-parent.

 

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sites/default/files/dependency-status.png

 

Put simply, the situation of students who qualify for independent status before 24 is so unusual, and deliberately so, that it is almost never relevant to bring them up on these threads. So your bringing it up along with "she claims herself as independent" is really odd. I'm not sure if you don't fully understand the politicized nature of this, or how unusual your situation is.

 

I'm not sure where you think I suggested it was something others could, or should, do.  It is an option for our daughter because of her specific circumstances, however, in the context of our family situation now, we feel her taking that option would be dishonest and it would not be a path we would encourage. The families we know who did use this did not/do not have the financial resources that we have and were in a situation where this was allowing them to support their children getting a college education. I think it was the right decision for them and if anyone else is reading this who has a child who meets one of the criteria and doesn't also have a fully funded college fund I wouldn't have a problem with them pursuing the path that we feel our daughter doesn't need. I mentioned it only because it would be one of two conditions under which a FAFSA would be filed for her (the other being a significant change in our financial situation---as long as FAFSA is predicting our EFC in the six figures well beyond twice what the most expensive college our child would even consider could possibly cost then we might as well just write a check to the university of her choice and move on).

 

 

[8filltheheart]

You are correct that if athletic scholarships provide more than tuition and required fees then the portion beyond that is taxable.  Our daughter's university is kind enough to send her 1098s reporting the amount that was awarded as room and board and she reports that as a taxable scholarship in the appropriate place on her taxes.  She would have been required to file her own taxes since she was sixteen because she has had earned income since that period and earned income can never be reported on the parent's return. Even before that DH decided that having the kids file their own returns (which he prepares for them) and report their investment income is a better option for our family as a whole.  He does use form 8615 to determine what tax rate applies but they have rarely have they exceeded the threshold to be taxed at our rate. 

 

I actually don't believe our eldest will be hit with "kiddie tax" this year as she turned 19 before the end of 2014 and I believe her earned income will be high enough to avoid that even though she is a student.  DH hasn't helped her do her 2014 taxes yet so she may be hit with this (she was last year because her earned income was not high enough) but she earned quite a bit this summer so I think she will be ok. Even if she isn't she will be paying less taxes being able to claim her own personal exemption than if we claimed her as a dependent. Last year we took into account the hardship of our tax bracket and were a bit more generous with gifts than usual to make it up to her in a way.  We will probably do the same thing this year.

 

I am confused by your reference to her age as being 19.  It applies to students until age 24.  It is not considered earned income, but unearned income at the parental rate (if higher, which in your case is obviously true) for the tax rate.

[swimmermom3]

I'm not sure where you think I suggested it was something others could, or should, do.  It is an option for our daughter because of her specific circumstances, however, in the context of our family situation now, we feel her taking that option would be dishonest and it would not be a path we would encourage. The families we know who did use this did not/do not have the financial resources that we have and were in a situation where this was allowing them to support their children getting a college education. I think it was the right decision for them and if anyone else is reading this who has a child who meets one of the criteria and doesn't also have a fully funded college fund I wouldn't have a problem with them pursuing the path that we feel our daughter doesn't need. I mentioned it only because it would be one of two conditions under which a FAFSA would be filed for her (the other being a significant change in our financial situation---as long as FAFSA is predicting our EFC in the six figures well beyond twice what the most expensive college our child would even consider could possibly cost then we might as well just write a check to the university of her choice and move on).

 

I think there is still a lot of confusion around your posts because for your daughter to be considered "independent" by the school system in order to calculate potential financial aid, she must meet one of the six criteria listed in Binip's post. So I am guessing that she does indeed meet one of those criteria and you haven't stated which one for her privacy. Totally understandable, but the conversation about her income and who claimed what on whose taxes is a moot point. All that matters for her to be "independent" by FAFSA standards is that she meet one of those criteria. By excluding the fact that she does indeed meet the criteria, it muddies the waters leaving some people with the impression that there are circumstances outside those 6 points that would work and I don't believe that it the case.

 

[LMV]

I think there is still a lot of confusion around your posts because for your daughter to be considered "independent" by the school system in order to calculate potential financial aid, she must meet one of the six criteria listed in Binip's post. So I am guessing that she does indeed meet one of those criteria and you haven't stated which one for her privacy. Totally understandable, but the conversation about her income and who claimed what on whose taxes is a moot point. All that matters for her to be "independent" by FAFSA standards is that she meet one of those criteria. By excluding the fact that she does indeed meet the criteria, it muddies the waters leaving some people with the impression that there are circumstances outside those 6 points that would work and I don't believe that it the case.

 

 

Well, ok, except  I clearly stated in both posts #63 and #66 that she meets the criteria.  

[Tsuga]

 

 

I'm not sure where you think I suggested it was something others could, or should, do.  It is an option for our daughter because of her specific circumstances,

 

Your posting about independence is like my posting about the GI Bill for my kids. It simply does not make sense in the context of the thread unless you mean it as advice.

 

As for her specific circumstances, let's reiterate--we now all can be totally sure that your daughter:

 

• Has a baby whom she supports.
• Is married.
• Is actually legally a ward of the court and you are, in legal terms, a guardian and not a parent (I use the legal terms only).
• Is a military veteran.
• Is in grad school.

There are no "specific" circumstances that apply to your child. The case-by-case issues are usually issues of extreme abuse, abandonment, or other really odd and usually awful situations that FA officers hate to verify. I'm going to assume they don't apply to your children.

 

 

 

So, as it was pointed out to me on this forum before, it is perfectly legal to allow her to apply as an independent student

 

 

If you re-read your posts it makes it sound like you are saying that your daughter has some kind of choice. "If she wishes."

 

It is not a choice. You are independent legally or not.

 

I'm going to assume that, given that you think your 15-year-old is also eligible, you are not the legal parent of either of your children, but that they are in your guardianship, hence you are not responsible for paying for their education. That you are choosing to do so to make it easier for them and to be parents to these kids to the fullest extent is admirable and you should be commended.

 

However the fact that you are not clear about this in threads like these and making comments such as the "if she wishes" one really can be confusing to people who are starting to navigate the system. If you are going to talk about that you really should clarify the specifics that allow her to choose--that you and your husband are living very comfortably at this point (to have an EFC like you pointed out you must be) AND that you were not able to / never needed to legally adopt your children for whatever reason.

 

Otherwise it is very misleading.

 

 

[swimmermom3]

Well, ok, except  I clearly stated in both posts #63 and #66 that she meets the criteria.  

 

:blushing: Got it. Sorry about that. I think I was baffled as to what the other financial aspects had to do with any of FAFSA and missed it.

 

[LMV]

I am confused by your reference to her age as being 19.  It applies to students until age 24.  It is not considered earned income, but unearned income at the parental rate (if higher, which in your case is obviously true) for the tax rate.

Just to clarify, I have more than one daughter.  it is our eldest daughter (who is currently 19) who is attending college now and is receiving a D1 athletic scholarship. She has earned income (because she works both lifeguarding and in a biotech lab).  She also has unearned income (from the taxable portion of her athletic scholarship plus some interest and dividend income).

 

As for "kiddie tax", the whole idea of this was to discourage parents from trying to shift assets to their children to avoid taxes. This is something that DH and I have never done, however, our kids do have some assets in their name because they are really their assets (DH had assets when he was a minor and that is the family culture--I realize it isn't typical, and, yeah, I did think it was a bit different at first but I guess I've assimilated into the family culture now). "Kiddie tax applies to all children under 18.  It also applies to non student adults of 18 or full time student adults 19-24  if their earned income isn't more than half of their needed support.  As I said before, DH hasn't finished helping DD19 with her taxes but I think she is going to just make it over the 50% mark because she worked a lot this summer.  If she does then she won't need to complete form 8615 and nothing will be taxed in the highest tax bracket.  Regardless, DH and I are nowhere near having contributed anywhere near 50% of her financial support so we can't claim her as a dependent no matter what.

[LMV]

Your posting about independence is like my posting about the GI Bill for my kids. It simply does not make sense in the context of the thread unless you mean it as advice.

 

As for her specific circumstances, let's reiterate--we now all can be totally sure that your daughter:

 

• Has a baby whom she supports.
• Is married.
• Is actually legally a ward of the court and you are, in legal terms, a guardian and not a parent (I use the legal terms only).
• Is a military veteran.
• Is in grad school.

There are no "specific" circumstances that apply to your child. The case-by-case issues are usually issues of extreme abuse, abandonment, or other really odd and usually awful situations that FA officers hate to verify. I'm going to assume they don't apply to your children.

 

 

 

If you re-read your posts it makes it sound like you are saying that your daughter has some kind of choice. "If she wishes."

 

It is not a choice. You are independent legally or not.

 

I'm going to assume that, given that you think your 15-year-old is also eligible, you are not the legal parent of either of your children, but that they are in your guardianship, hence you are not responsible for paying for their education. That you are choosing to do so to make it easier for them and to be parents to these kids to the fullest extent is admirable and you should be commended.

 

However the fact that you are not clear about this in threads like these and making comments such as the "if she wishes" one really can be confusing to people who are starting to navigate the system. If you are going to talk about that you really should clarify the specifics that allow her to choose--that you and your husband are living very comfortably at this point (to have an EFC like you pointed out you must be) AND that you were not able to / never needed to legally adopt your children for whatever reason.

 

Otherwise it is very misleading.

 

Actually none of your bulleted list is applicable to our daughter. Although our daughter (DD15)has lived with us since she was ten we were never able to finalize her adoption until a few months before her fourteenth birthday.  This wasn't our desire but when an abusive biological parent with their own significant financial resources drags out a TPR as long as possible and plays the family and criminal courts against each other this can (and was in our experience) be the end result.  The federal statute asks is students have ever been in foster care at any time after their thirteenth birthday so, yes, our daughter was and yes she meets the statute. This continues to apply even if the child has been subsequently adopted or has returned from foster care to their biological parents.  

 

As for the bolded, that would all apply to our daughter with her biological parents so I'm not sure how I feel about that.

 

As for us choosing to do this.  Well, yes, we are and I've never stated anything else. We are choosing to do this because we believe that as her parents we have some responsibility to help her launch into adulthood. Her applying as an independent would not be something we would encourage.  I would say we wouldn't allow it but technically I believe that if she wanted to do that (which I don't believe she does) we also couldn't really stop it. I really feel like this is less that I've been so unclear and more that several posters are so vested in chiming in with wait they can't be an independent because some  parents do misunderstand. I don't misunderstand yes, by the legal statutes and criteria she could be an independent but we feel like that would be misrepresenting her true needs because she doesn't need someone else to fund her college because she has parents who are willing and able to do so. 

[8filltheheart]

Just to clarify, I have more than one daughter.  it is our eldest daughter (who is currently 19) who is attending college now and is receiving a D1 athletic scholarship. She has earned income (because she works both lifeguarding and in a biotech lab).  She also has unearned income (from the taxable portion of her athletic scholarship plus some interest and dividend income).

 

As for "kiddie tax", the whole idea of this was to discourage parents from trying to shift assets to their children to avoid taxes. This is something that DH and I have never done, however, our kids do have some assets in their name because they are really their assets (DH had assets when he was a minor and that is the family culture--I realize it isn't typical, and, yeah, I did think it was a bit different at first but I guess I've assimilated into the family culture now). "Kiddie tax applies to all children under 18.  It also applies to non student adults of 18 or full time student adults 19-24  if their earned income isn't more than half of their needed support.  As I said before, DH hasn't finished helping DD19 with her taxes but I think she is going to just make it over the 50% mark because she worked a lot this summer.  If she does then she won't need to complete form 8615 and nothing will be taxed in the highest tax bracket.  Regardless, DH and I are nowhere near having contributed anywhere near 50% of her financial support so we can't claim her as a dependent no matter what.

 

What is considered the 50% mark?  If our ds works an REU this summer, he will not have lived at home at all (only visiting over breaks) and he will make a very nice salary for a summer job.  Between his scholarship paying for all of his expenses and working via REU, we will not have paid for any of his expenses at all.  This is first I have heard at all that support and their income alters how the scholarship $$ is classified.  It obviously won't matter for this yr b/c he lived at home until Aug, but it could definitely impact things next yr.

 

 

[unsinkable]

Is it a requirement for most schools that the FAFSA be completed BEFORE they will announce merit aid packages?

Not in our experience.

 

All my son's merit scholarships were offered with his acceptance packet.

[LMV]

What is considered the 50% mark?  If our ds works an REU this summer, he will not have lived at home at all (only visiting over breaks) and he will make a very nice salary for a summer job.  Between his scholarship paying for all of his expenses and working via REU, we will not have paid for any of his expenses at all.  This is first I have heard at all that support and their income alters how the scholarship $$ is classified.  It obviously won't matter for this yr b/c he lived at home until Aug, but it could definitely impact things next yr.

 

You determine what is needed for their support (food, housing, clothing, education for the year) and then if the student has earned income (from wages, self employment etc) which is above 50% of that figure they meet the criteria. The portions of the scholarship that are taxable are still taxable.  The only difference is that if the student's earned income is sufficient then their scholarship income (and any other unearned income the student may have) is taxed at the student's tax rate instead of the rate of their parents.  

 

As an aside, I agree that you may find yourself in a position where you can't claim him in good conscience but he is still having the taxable portions of his scholarship taxed at you and your husband's tax rate. That may be where DD19 ends up for the 2014 tax year as well, DH hasn't finished crunching all the numbers for her.

[BlsdMama]

Is it a requirement for most schools that the FAFSA be completed BEFORE they will announce merit aid packages?

 

Not in our experience.

All my son's merit scholarships were offered with his acceptance packet.

 

This varies. Our state u is not sending Ana's FA package until they receive the FULLY completed FAFSA, as in with this years tax information. We already know she's retained the four year merit award per the GPA requirement but she received a "freshman" merit scholarship from the school and we have no idea if the financial aid wand will be waved over the money hat and out will pop a sophomore scholarship. ;). Waiting, waiting!

[unsinkable]

This varies. Our state u is not sending Ana's FA package until they receive the FULLY completed FAFSA, as in with this years tax information. We already know she's retained the four year merit award per the GPA requirement but she received a "freshman" merit scholarship from the school and we have no idea if the financial aid wand will be waved over the money hat and out will pop a sophomore scholarship. ;). Waiting, waiting!

I understand that it varies. That's why I wrote: "Not in OUR experience."

 

My son's merit scholarships were both from private And public and they all came with the acceptance package (which in all cases was a big package/envelope too, which I also know varies.)

 

I hope your DD gets the awards what she needs!

[8filltheheart]

You determine what is needed for their support (food, housing, clothing, education for the year) and then if the student has earned income (from wages, self employment etc) which is above 50% of that figure they meet the criteria. The portions of the scholarship that are taxable are still taxable. The only difference is that if the student's earned income is sufficient then their scholarship income (and any other unearned income the student may have) is taxed at the student's tax rate instead of the rate of their parents.

 

As an aside, I agree that you may find yourself in a position where you can't claim him in good conscience but he is still having the taxable portions of his scholarship taxed at you and your husband's tax rate. That may be where DD19 ends up for the 2014 tax year as well, DH hasn't finished crunching all the numbers for her.

Ok, now I am confused. If he had to earn the equivalent of 50% of his total schoalrship, plus COL for the intervening months, there is no way. Goodness, his brother doesn't make that working full-time at Goodwill.

[Catwoman]

I'm not sure where you think I suggested it was something others could, or should, do. It is an option for our daughter because of her specific circumstances, however, in the context of our family situation now, we feel her taking that option would be dishonest and it would not be a path we would encourage. The families we know who did use this did not/do not have the financial resources that we have and were in a situation where this was allowing them to support their children getting a college education. I think it was the right decision for them and if anyone else is reading this who has a child who meets one of the criteria and doesn't also have a fully funded college fund I wouldn't have a problem with them pursuing the path that we feel our daughter doesn't need. I mentioned it only because it would be one of two conditions under which a FAFSA would be filed for her (the other being a significant change in our financial situation---as long as FAFSA is predicting our EFC in the six figures well beyond twice what the most expensive college our child would even consider could possibly cost then we might as well just write a check to the university of her choice and move on).

I just wanted to say that I admire you for being so honest and for following your own moral and ethical code, even though it may cost you a tremendous amount of money to do so. :hurray:

[LMV]

I just wanted to say that I admire you for being so honest and for following your own moral and ethical code, even though it may cost you a tremendous amount of money to do so. :hurray:

 

Thanks! The reality is that she is our daughter so we're going to do what we can to support her and help her achieve her goals and dreams.  DH and I got that from our parents and we view that as part of our responsibility for our kids now.  She is looking at two different Ivys (one DH happens to be an alum of, one which no one in the entire family has any ties to) and if she goes that route then that will be expensive but we've prepared for the possibility that one or more of our kids would go that route. I also really believe that wherever she decides to go she will work hard and take advantage of her opportunities so since we are in a position to fund that we see no reason to say no.

 

DD19 attending a top university (that some people would say is actually a better school than some of the Ivys she considered) on an athletic scholarship has been good for our finances but it was very important to DH and I that she pick a school based on it's academic fit and we believe that is what she did do in the end. Academically she is doing well, she has already found a research mentor for her honors project and will likely finish up with a few publications behind her (which if she still wants to go the MDPhd route will be necessary).  Additionally, Her team did very well this year, they got further in the NCAA tournament than last year and they are still relatively young so who knows what the future holds for them. I think watching DD19's college application and college recruitment process from the sidelines two years ago will end up being very helpful to DD15.  They are involved in very different sports (although DD19's university does have a women's D1 team in DD15's sport so who knows) so I don't expect her to so much share her insight about different coaches as much as share certain things she looked for (or avoided) in team culture or coaching approaches and perhaps just reinforce that it really is most important to find the right school for school (because the reality is that DD15 will probably take that in in a much different way when hearing it from her big sister than mom or dad). 

 

As far as cost, I also think there is an intangible cost that our kids are watching and learning from our actions and inactions as well.