S/O Gender Identity Thread: Suicide. Why do some choose it but not others?

[TranquilMind]

I asked a question in the enormous thread about Shiloh Pitt, and I'd like to tease that out now, if anyone is game:

 

The really interesting question to me here is why some will persevere despite what they perceive as (or what are objectively...i.e. concentration camp or prison) horrible surroundings, and others fold? This isn't theoretical to me, as I have lost people close to me, and I still wonder why. Same family. One perseveres, one folds, sometimes even under the same contraints or circumstances. Why?

 

Care to discuss?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Why in the general population too?  I don't think there is any easy explanation/answer.  Might be a chemical imbalance.  Someone who chooses not to might have a better support system.  I was feeling quite down at one point in my life and my parents were on top of me over it because there is a lot of mental health issues in my family.  I think they understood/knew what to do.  And that probably helped.  I don't know if I would have ever done that, but who knows.  I haven't had that thought ever again.  My father told me that when he is off mentally (not stabilized by medications) he has had moments where he has obsessed about it.  It is a common symptom of his illness. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

To add, might come down to opportunity for some people to.  Not that it takes a long time to necessarily complete the act, but if someone isn't alone much there are far fewer opportunities.  Or if they have access to certain drugs or other means making it easier.  For example, it is not likely that most people will be able to stab themselves to death.  But popping a lot of pills would be easier.  That sort of thing.  I was rarely alone.  There would have literally been no opportunity unless I went somewhere.  But where?  KWIM?

 

 

[umsami]

Suicide is so immensely complicated.  I'm not so sure it's all about being transgendered, but about bullying both from peers and parents/adults.  It's also about loneliness.  

 

My guess is that some people who commit suicide also do so as a way to send a message to others.  It's a very public way to acknowledge what a tough path it is to be transgendered.  In some way, they may be helping others by letting them know that they were not alone.   Leela said that her death had to matter for something.  Perhaps parents whose child is transgendered will react differently.  They won't want to lose their child.   

 

I also doubt that any of the circumstances really are the same, even if they appear to be on the outside.  Two religiously conservative families may seem the same, but how they operate/support/criticize could be very different.  The support the child/teen has from friends and others might be different as well.  Sometimes just having one supportive person in your life can make a difference.  Just one.  

 

 

[Dory]

Personally, I am still here, not because I'm tougher, or more resilient then the people who have chosen suicide but because I have found a reason to stay that sticks with me, even when I can't think straight. It is a core piece to who I am and how I function. For me, it's my kids. For someone else it might be something else. It's a tenuous string that I grasp onto when I'm struggling.

 

The only reason my kids stick with me mentally thought, is because I have set them as the central thing in my life that I function around. They are my main (and often only) focus all through the day.

 

I often joke about needing to get in touch with my inner mule, but I don't really think I'm still here out of any amazing strength of my own. I just have a reason. If I didn't have my kids, I would've killed myself years ago. I have tried, I just wasn't successful. I still think about it now and then, but for now, I'll be sticking around.

 

 

I do completely understand why some people would choose suicide. I have spend a lot of time begging God to kill me so that I could just be done. I just want it all to be done sometimes. Life is heavy, and hard, and really has no meaning.

 

 

Having external support can really make an amazingly huge difference.

[Frances]

I don't find this surprising at all and see it as the basic interaction of nature and nurture. In the case of persevering under extreme circumstances, resilience and mental health are probably two of the most important characteristics. Individuals are born with different amounts of resilience and different amounts of risk for mental health issues. Then throughout their upbringing, their resilience and mental health may either increase or decrease based on environmental factors. So when faced with the same adverse circumstances at some point, i don't find it all surprising tht people would respond differently.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Personally, I am still here, not because I'm tougher, or more resilient then the people who have chosen suicide but because I have found a reason to stay that sticks with me, even when I can't think straight. It is a core piece to who I am and how I function. For me, it's my kids. For someone else it might be something else. It's a tenuous string that I grasp onto when I'm struggling.

 

The only reason my kids stick with me mentally thought, is because I have set them as the central thing in my life that I function around. They are my main (and often only) focus all through the day.

 

I often joke about needing to get in touch with my inner mule, but I don't really think I'm still here out of any amazing strength of my own. I just have a reason. If I didn't have my kids, I would've killed myself years ago. I have tried, I just wasn't successful. I still think about it now and then, but for now, I'll be sticking around.

 

 

I do completely understand why some people would choose suicide. I have spend a lot of time begging God to kill me so that I could just be done. I just want it all to be done sometimes. Life is heavy, and hard, and really has no meaning.

 

 

Having external support can really make an amazingly huge difference.

 

Yeah I often wonder what I'd do without my kids and husband.  What reason would I have to live?  Not sure.  I'd have to come up with something.  Not that there is nothing more to me than that, but it's really the main reason I keep getting out of bed every morning. 

[LucyStoner]

Because. Different people are different.

[LucyStoner]

I don't see suicide victims as less resilient or weaker than those who survive severe depression. The way that you write implies on some level that you do and as such, I don't know what meaningful discussion can be had. Suicide isn't a failure to persevere. It isn't caused by rough circumstances.

[Rosie_0801]

Not everyone holds that suicide is a sin, so the choice is not as big to some as it is to others.

 

I'm still here because dd got out of the caravan. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be otherwise. Why would I want to live with that kind of pain for the next 60 years? I don't owe that to anyone. My mum and brother would have been heart broken, but they would have understood.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't see suicide victims as less resilient or weaker than those who survive severe depression. The way that you write implies on some level that you do and as such, I don't know what meaningful discussion can be had. Suicide isn't a failure to persevere. It isn't caused by rough circumstances.

 

I see what you are saying, but I don't think that is quite what the other poster meant.  Some people are less resilient, but I don't think that means they are failures.  I'm not tall.  Does that make me a failure at height?  No, it's just an aspect of me. 

[idnib]

. 

 

[Joanne]

There is not a definitive answer.

I personally don't believe suicide is "equal." Not all attempts are emerging from the same place. I also don't believe that suicide is automatically indicative of mental illness in the traditional sense. I think it can be a reasoned, informed, deliberate choice.

 

I think contributing factors can be:

 

1. Aggressiveness of depression. Some depression, like other illness, is treatment resistant.
2. Length of time living in the context that makes not living a viable option.
3. Relating to # 2, and adding when the lived context occurred in terms of human development. There seems to be some correlating times when suicide is more likely  - teens and elderly, for example. My theory is that the brain at those times may be more physiologically vulnerable. That is absolutely true of the development of a substance abuse issue in an adolescent.
4. Level of information available and used if their is a triggering event.
5. Level of community support - family, faith community, intentional support groups.
6. Hope - this is elusive to quantify, but I think that something to live for and embrace can be a mitigating factor.
7. Religious framework around suicide.
8. General health - cardiac, fitness, endocrine, etc.

Here is what I don't think it is: self confidence, "will", strength, depth of "faith" or "spirituality", or selfishness.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Not everyone holds that suicide is a sin, so the choice is not as big to some as it is to others.

 

I'm still here because dd got out of the caravan. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be otherwise. Why would I want to live with that kind of pain for the next 60 years? I don't owe that to anyone. My mum and brother would have been heart broken, but they would have understood.

 

I do agree with that.  My husband's coworker committed suicide about 2 years ago.  He had been dealing with a lot of pain and found out he had an incurable illness that would eventually leave him in a vegetative state.  He didn't want to live like that and he was sick of being in pain.  I don't think there was anything mentally wrong with him that made him make a bad decision.  He made a choice and I think it was reasonable.  He is missed.  I really liked talking to him.  But I wouldn't want him to suffer and stay alive if he didn't want to. 

[idnib]

.

[Tsuga]

I disagree with the notion that suicide is "folding".

 

The main reason I'm alive is that I don't want people who love me to suffer.

 

Before, I didn't die only because I thought my mother would blame herself. I don't think that would have been irrational. Why should I live? I'm a first-world citizen: I take more through colonialist sucking of natural resources from the poor world, mining the heck out of the planet, than I can ever give back. And there's no point going back to the old way. Basically there is no point in my life when you really think about it. But I don't think there's any point to anyone's life beyond what they want, what they are enjoying in the moment.

 

At this point I couldn't take my kids, so they'd suffer as their dad is not well.

 

If I didn't have a family to care for I'd take out a huge line of credit, spend it all on the poor in ways they couldn't take back / couldn't track, and off myself.

 

I don't think that's selfish. I just don't think so much of myself that I would think that any god or society or the earth would need me. If a car hits me right now, life will go on. I'm not contributing that much. Everyone says nice things after you die but really it's the people who loved you who will miss you.

 

The universe doesn't need me. Really. I think the idea that somehow all seven billion of us are especially needed in this universe is ridiculous.

 

People die all the time and it's not like choosing to is selfish or stupid. Honestly--if that relieves someone's pain, go for it.

 

So yeah... Now that I have kids I'm just trying to make my peaceful spot in the universe. That's it.

 

Life is beautiful but it doesn't have to be long if you're in pain.

[Tsuga]

 

People who suffer from depression to the point where dying seems better, even when their lives are actually okay.

 

I understand what you are saying but this doesn't make sense as it is phrased.

 

When dying seems better, that's not actually an okay life.

 

I think it's when you get disconnected from the energy of life that keeps you going. I have no idea what is happening in that situation but having had even brief moments of despair, I can totally see suicide in this situation.

 

I'd rather live with an artificial heart and no limbs than depressed like that.

[elegantlion]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

Not everyone holds that suicide is a sin, so the choice is not as big to some as it is to others.

 

I'm still here because dd got out of the caravan. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be otherwise. Why would I want to live with that kind of pain for the next 60 years? I don't owe that to anyone. My mum and brother would have been heart broken, but they would have understood.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I disagree with the notion that suicide is "folding".

 

The main reason I'm alive is that I don't want people who love me to suffer.

 

Before, I didn't die only because I thought my mother would blame herself. I don't think that would have been irrational. Why should I live? I'm a first-world citizen: I take more through colonialist sucking of natural resources from the poor world, mining the heck out of the planet, than I can ever give back. And there's no point going back to the old way. Basically there is no point in my life when you really think about it. But I don't think there's any point to anyone's life beyond what they want, what they are enjoying in the moment.

 

At this point I couldn't take my kids, so they'd suffer as their dad is not well.

 

If I didn't have a family to care for I'd take out a huge line of credit, spend it all on the poor in ways they couldn't take back / couldn't track, and off myself.

 

I don't think that's selfish. I just don't think so much of myself that I would think that any god would need me. God, the world, the universe doesn't need me. Really. I think the idea that somehow all seven billion of us are especially needed in this universe is ridiculous.

 

People die all the time and it's not like choosing to is selfish or stupid. Honestly--if that relieves someone's pain, go for it.

 

So yeah... Now that I have kids I'm just trying to make my peaceful spot in the universe. That's it.

 

Life is beautiful but it doesn't have to be long if you're in pain.

 

This makes me think of the times I read or hear people say hey wouldn't it be great if we lived forever?  No..no it would not be great.  Life would have to get a hell of a lot more pleasant for me to think that is a great idea.  It sounds tiring to me.  I don't want to keep at this forever. 

 

 

[LucyStoner]

I see what you are saying, but I don't think that is quite what the other poster meant. Some people are less resilient, but I don't think that means they are failures. I'm not tall. Does that make me a failure at height? No, it's just an aspect of me.

Among other comments TM has made about suicide, this is what prompted my response:

 

 

"One perseveres, one folds, sometimes even under the same contraints or circumstances."

 

Two people with different outcomes in the same situation doesn't mean one is persevering and the other is giving up. The implication I take away from that is that the one who survived is stronger. Not necessarily.

 

And let's not forget that suicide claims victims who may not have especially rough circumstances besides the depression itself.

 

Your height analogy is a good one. Some people are tall. Some people are short. Some depression is so vast it kills, some is not.

 

(I know people kill themselves for other reasons besides depression but I don't think a calculated medical decision or whatnot is quite the same thing.)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I understand what you are saying but this doesn't make sense as it is phrased.

 

When dying seems better, that's not actually an okay life.

 

I think it's when you get disconnected from the energy of life that keeps you going. I have no idea what is happening in that situation but having had even brief moments of despair, I can totally see suicide in this situation.

 

I'd rather live with an artificial heart and no limbs than depressed like that.

 

I would take that to mean that the issue lies within their brain and it is not something outside of themselves.  It's not a circumstance or something that happened to them.  My dad said when he was on a mental low prior to being stabilized with medications he would think of nothing else than wanting to die.  He would dream of ways to do it.  That's all he thought about.  He said it was like walking towards an oncoming train and you are just waiting for the train to run you over.  When he is stabilized he does not have those thoughts.  When he'd go on a low, there was no outside reason for it.  It wasn't that something didn't go his way or he lost his job, his dog died, and the landlord was kicking him out.  Nothing changed in his circumstances.  Just chemically in his brain.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Among other comments TM has made about suicide, this is what prompted my response:

 

 

"One perseveres, one folds, sometimes even under the same contraints or circumstances."

 

Two people with different outcomes in the same situation doesn't mean one is persevering and the other is giving up. The implication I take away from that is that the one who survived is stronger. Not necessarily.

 

And let's not forget that suicide claims victims who may not have especially rough circumstances besides the depression itself.

 

Your height analogy is a good one. Some people are tall. Some people are short. Some depression is so vast it kills, some is not.

 

(I know people kill themselves for other reasons besides depression but I don't think a calculated medical decision or whatnot is quite the same thing,

 

It's hard to word things sometimes.  I think it's possible to say that someone was weaker and hence made a certain decision without meaning the person is less of a person or has less value.  I guess too this comes down to how much control do we actually have?  I keep trying despite difficulties, but frankly I'm not sure why because I don't get a sense that I have real control.  Any control is just an illusion or driven by some biological process that makes me keep trying to stay alive. 

 

Well that all sounds cozy doesn't it....

 

[merry gardens]

I should have opened this thread before responding on the other.

 

I think it relates to the innate value that one holds (or doesn't hold) on human life.  Suicide is often precipitated with mental illness, which clouds rational thinking.  When it may appear otherwise rational, (as in perhaps such cases as to avoid suffering), it is because that person does not find innate dignity simply by being a living human being.

[idnib]

. 

 

[Tsuga]

Yes, I can see that is what she was getting at.

 

I just feel like the brain's real role in our lives is often underestimated. Like it's "just in the head". But to me there is no "just".

 

The entire universe is perceived by me through my head with help from some nerves branching out in the form of a human body. The entire universe, to me, is actually in my head. There's no reality out there waiting to get in: the human brain, the mammal's brain, the animal brain, the living being creates sense and order out of god knows what objective reality that we seem to exist in.

 

For that reason I feel that somehow saying that "it's really okay" is to some extent demeaning the real importance of depression.

 

(ETA we cross posted, sorry about that--and I suck at moderating online time too... good luck with your resolution!)

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes, I can see that is what she was getting at.

 

I just feel like the brain's real role in our lives is often underestimated. Like it's "just in the head". But to me there is no "just".

 

The entire universe is perceived by me through my head with help from some nerves branching out in the form of a human body. The entire universe, to me, is actually in my head. There's no reality out there waiting to get in: the human brain, the mammal's brain, the animal brain, the living being creates sense and order out of god knows what objective reality that we seem to exist in.

 

For that reason I feel that somehow saying that "it's really okay" is to some extent demeaning the real importance of depression.

 

Well "just in the head" as if there is this nebulous aspect to our head that is not attached to our body and is unaffected by chemistry or biology.  Like if we just hear the right words that'll fix it.  This is one thing I always found funny when talking about psychology (referring to some theories in psychology).  That we have this "mind" that isn't part of our physical body.  Right...  I guess I don't really believe that.  It's all connected.  Everything is chemical and we can't really see what is going on at that level to know what exactly flicks the switches. 

[Meadowlark]

After my brother committed suicide, one thing a counselor said really resonated with me.

 

Suicide happens when the balance alters between your pain and your ability to cope.

 

Makes sense to me. We all have pain and all have coping strategies. I saw my brother trying to cope for years unsuccessfully. Then, one day (age 35) he decided enough was enough. His suicide note said that he'd never been happy EVER and that life sucks. Depression? Chemical imbalance? Nothing ever diagnosed but something was always off. Example-We'd be at a restaurant and both served milk. He would complain and get really upset that the milk wasn't cold enough. I thought it was fine. Same with road rage-we'd be in a car and the driving of others always upset him. Me? Not bothered. He looked at life through a different lens for sure. I never could picture him as an old, peaceful man. I just hope he's not in pain anymore and he's found the happiness he never had here.

[LucyStoner]

It's hard to word things sometimes. I think it's possible to say that someone was weaker and hence made a certain decision without meaning the person is less of a person or has less value. I guess too this comes down to how much control do we actually have? I keep trying despite difficulties, but frankly I'm not sure why because I don't get a sense that I have real control. Any control is just an illusion or driven by some biological process that makes me keep trying to stay alive.

 

Well that all sounds cozy doesn't it....

 

Is the person weaker or is the illness stronger?

 

My mother died of cancer. Sometimes people will talk about cancer patients fighting a battle for their lives. My mother survived for 14 year after a diagnosis of advanced cancer. She wasn't any stronger than those who lived 6 months past their diagnosis or weaker than those who are still kicking it.

 

That's all I am saying.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Is the person weaker or is the illness stronger?

 

My mother died of cancer. Sometimes people will take about cancer patients fighting a battle for their lives. My mother survived for 14 year after a diagnosis of advanced cancer. She wasn't any stronger than those who lived 6 months past their diagnosis or weaker than those who are still kicking it.

 

That's all I am saying.

 

Well depends on how pessimistic I'm feeling.  But surely this can't be as bad as saying people kill themselves because they don't value human life.

 

But that's a really good example.  Makes total sense.  But you could say that perhaps some cancer patients start off with less in their favor in terms of coping.  Not necessarily meaning they are lacking a value.  KWIM?  My mother died fairly quickly, but she also had been a long time smoker, a long time drinker, a diabetic, long time user of tons of prescription medications with tons of side affects, etc.  The odds were definitely stacked against her. 

 

[Tsuga]

 

Suicide happens when the balance alters between your pain and your ability to cope.

 

I think of it more as a cost-benefit analysis. What is the cost of me staying alive (pain, burdens on others) vs. the benefit of my staying alive (what can I do for others, particularly those for whom I am unique--such as my kids)?

 

I don't think that suicide means you can't cope--at least, not every time. Sometimes it's a rational choice.

[LucyStoner]

Well depends on how pessimistic I'm feeling. But surely this can't be as bad as saying people kill themselves because they don't value human life.

 

But that's a really good example. Makes total sense. But you could say that perhaps some cancer patients start off with less in their favor in terms of coping. Not necessarily meaning they are lacking a value. KWIM? My mother died fairly quickly, but she also had been a long time smoker, a long time drinker, a diabetic, long time user of tons of prescription medications with tons of side affects, etc. The odds were definitely stacked against her.

Absolutely, but those are life factors and not character traits.

 

And nothing much makes sense at times. My mom was a longtime smoker, overweight and in poor physical health due to various reasons. To boot she had two distinct types of lung cancer and leukemia. She was a strong person mentally but it always bothered me when people credited her strength with her longtime survival. Because the flip of that is that her death would be her strength giving out or weakness and well, no. Not really. Cancer kills people.

 

Edited because my own word choice of physical characteristics bugged me.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Absolutely, but those are physical characteristics and not character traits.

 

And nothing much makes sense at times. My mom was a longtime smoker, overweight and in poor physical health due to various reasons. To boot she had two distinct types of lung cancer and leukemia. She was a strong person but it always bothered me when people credited her strength with her longtime survival. Because the flip of that is that her death would be her strength giving out or weakness and well, no. Not really.

 

Although those physical characteristics would by many be called flaws in her character.  Again, I'm not sure how much control we have.  I see a lot of what people do as outside of their control.  Not so much I think we are being manipulated by invisible puppet masters or that we have no ability to move towards the direction we want to, but a lot of stuff is not completely in our control.  Having the propensity to become addicted to drugs or alcohol is not within our control.  Yet that is also viewed by many as a flaw (especially of character).  Whether it is a flaw or not really doesn't matter in the end.  The result can be the same.   If two people with the same propensity have a different outcome it doesn't necessarily mean one person was a more upstanding citizen.  Could be they had completely different circumstances that contributed to the outcome. 

 

I'm not even sure what I'm talking about anymore.  LOL

 

I don't think a person is flawed if they kill themselves.  But I do believe that sometimes there is a physical/chemical factor that could be described using various words.  Maybe it's a limitation of language.  I don't always know which words to use.  Either way it's not me saying I think someone is an idiot if they kill themselves or they are defective.  Although something not functioning quite right could cause it. 

[TranquilMind]

I don't find this surprising at all and see it as the basic interaction of nature and nurture. In the case of persevering under extreme circumstances, resilience and mental health are probably two of the most important characteristics. Individuals are born with different amounts of resilience and different amounts of risk for mental health issues. Then throughout their upbringing, their resilience and mental health may either increase or decrease based on environmental factors. So when faced with the same adverse circumstances at some point, i don't find it all surprising tht people would respond differently.

What if they are from the same environment? What if two kids both become alcoholics or (fill in the blank with major problem) but one commits suicide and the other does not?  Same parents, same upbringing. 

 

Why?  That sort of removes genetic factors. 

[TranquilMind]

Personally, I am still here, not because I'm tougher, or more resilient then the people who have chosen suicide but because I have found a reason to stay that sticks with me, even when I can't think straight. It is a core piece to who I am and how I function. For me, it's my kids. For someone else it might be something else. It's a tenuous string that I grasp onto when I'm struggling.

 

The only reason my kids stick with me mentally thought, is because I have set them as the central thing in my life that I function around. They are my main (and often only) focus all through the day.

 

I often joke about needing to get in touch with my inner mule, but I don't really think I'm still here out of any amazing strength of my own. I just have a reason. If I didn't have my kids, I would've killed myself years ago. I have tried, I just wasn't successful. I still think about it now and then, but for now, I'll be sticking around.

 

 

I do completely understand why some people would choose suicide. I have spend a lot of time begging God to kill me so that I could just be done. I just want it all to be done sometimes. Life is heavy, and hard, and really has no meaning.

 

 

Having external support can really make an amazingly huge difference.

Wow, that is a tremendously sad statement, and while I have had very hard times, I've never felt that it has no meaning. 

[TranquilMind]

Because. Different people are different.

But why? Why does Eva Kor just keep on going, forgiving the Nazis for the twin experiments Mengele conducted, killing her twin (if I recall correctly), yet another person with far less trauma for a far shorter time just kills himself?

[LucyStoner]

But why? Why does Eva Kor just keep on going, forgiving the Nazis for the twin experiments Mengele conducted, killing her twin (if I recall correctly), yet another person with far less trauma for a far shorter time just kills himself?

No matter how extreme the example, the answer remains the same. Different people are different.

 

I've lived though a lot, including violent crimes. I've never been suicidally depressed in a long term or ongoing way. It's not something I've had to face. I am not stronger than anyone who has lived through less difficult circumstances and killed themselves.

[Scrub Jay]

I don't see suicide victims as less resilient or weaker than those who survive severe depression. The way that you write implies on some level that you do and as such, I don't know what meaningful discussion can be had. Suicide isn't a failure to persevere. It isn't caused by rough circumstances.

 

I am blanking on who said this about Robin Williams (maybe Jay Leno?) but after his suicide the famous friend pointed out that Robin fought depression, etc on a daily basis and won except for this one day. 

 

OK, I found the quote.  It was Jay Leno: "He fought a lot of battles, and he won 99% of them, but just lost this one."

 

That quote really resonated with me - if that doesn't sound like a strong person I don't know what a strong person is.

 

[*Lulu*]

No matter how extreme the example, the answer remains the same. Different people are different.

 

I've lived though a lot, including violent crimes. I've never been suicidally depressed. It's not something I've had to face. I am not stronger than anyone who has lived through less difficult circumstances and killed themselves.

And, beyond that, trauma is trauma, pain is pain. They are like a substance in a gaseous state, they diffuse filling the space they are in.

 

Getting into quantifying trauma and pain is not actually beneficial. It isn't beneficial to those who are dealing with those issues and I am not sure it is beneficial to the understanding of what underlying brain chemistry makes one more likely to be suicidal.

[Rosie_0801]

Pain is relative anyway. Obviously losing a loved one is far worse than misplacing your keys, but in the moment you still feel as much stress as your body will hold. I've cried over losing my keys before. :lol:

[SeaConquest]

Personally, I am still here, not because I'm tougher, or more resilient then the people who have chosen suicide but because I have found a reason to stay that sticks with me, even when I can't think straight. It is a core piece to who I am and how I function. For me, it's my kids. For someone else it might be something else. It's a tenuous string that I grasp onto when I'm struggling.

 

The only reason my kids stick with me mentally thought, is because I have set them as the central thing in my life that I function around. They are my main (and often only) focus all through the day.

 

I often joke about needing to get in touch with my inner mule, but I don't really think I'm still here out of any amazing strength of my own. I just have a reason. If I didn't have my kids, I would've killed myself years ago. I have tried, I just wasn't successful. I still think about it now and then, but for now, I'll be sticking around.

 

 

I do completely understand why some people would choose suicide. I have spend a lot of time begging God to kill me so that I could just be done. I just want it all to be done sometimes. Life is heavy, and hard, and really has no meaning.

 

 

Having external support can really make an amazingly huge difference.

 

 

Thank you, Dory, for having the courage to share this. It resonates with me very deeply.

 

Approximately 1 in 4 people with bipolar ultimately commit suicide. I am only here because I have an amazing husband and strong support system, including excellent doctors (funded by excellent insurance coverage). I can say with certainty that, if any one of those variables was changed, I would not be here today. It has next to nothing to do with resilience.

 

When I am suicidal, I try to think of my children. My doctor knows that I am the hyperanalytical type, so she frequently reminds me of the stats for children of parents who have committed suicide. Suffice to say, they are not good. However, there have been times in my life where my mind simply could not be reasoned with. It's like trying to convince someone in the middle of a tornado that there are blue skies just above. I had absolutely zero rational thought, and was overcome by the swirling darkness in the depths of my depression. I assure you, there was little choice in the matter.  

[Sdel]

When I am suicidal, I try to think of my children. My doctor knows that I am the hyperanalytical type, so she frequently reminds me of the stats for children of parents who have committed suicide. Suffice to say, they are not good. However, there have been times in my life where my mind simply could not be reasoned with. It's like trying to convince someone in the middle of a tornado that there are blue skies just above. I had absolutely zero rational thought, and was overcome by the swirling darkness in the depths of my depression. I assure you, there was little choice in the matter.  

 

This so much.  I was pretty severely depressed after my dad died.  On the good days, it is easy to see what the false messages are in your perceptions and counter them.  On the bad days, it is impossible.  In my opinion, and my experiences, the point of suicide is when you completely buy in to the false messages.  But you can't necessarily control if you buy in.

 

Stefanie

[TranquilMind]

Among other comments TM has made about suicide, this is what prompted my response:

 

 

"One perseveres, one folds, sometimes even under the same contraints or circumstances."

 

Two people with different outcomes in the same situation doesn't mean one is persevering and the other is giving up. The implication I take away from that is that the one who survived is stronger. Not necessarily.

 

And let's not forget that suicide claims victims who may not have especially rough circumstances besides the depression itself.

 

Your height analogy is a good one. Some people are tall. Some people are short. Some depression is so vast it kills, some is not.

 

(I know people kill themselves for other reasons besides depression but I don't think a calculated medical decision or whatnot is quite the same thing.)

Are you saying that the one who commits suicide is stronger than the one who sticks it out? 

[Dory]

Wow, that is a tremendously sad statement, and while I have had very hard times, I've never felt that it has no meaning. 

 

Well then I envy you. I live with the slight hope that I am terribly wrong and that even if I'm worthless and ruined by this point, that perhaps there's something my kids can get out of life.

 

Really in the end we're just a bunch of egocentric bits of dust hurtling through space on a little ball that is one of a million other balls throughout the universe. We make importance out of it all because otherwise life would be too heavy. We focus on the little things in our quest for meaning and importance. For someone like me though, the little things are hard to enjoy, and without those, there is no meaning left.

 

Sorry, the holidays really take a lot out of me.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think the cancer analogy is a good one. Not everyone survives cancer. It doesn't mean that the people who don't are weak.

 

Different people have different chemical makeups, different brains, they are inherently wired differently. There is no one answer for why this person commits suicide and that person doesn't.

[Frances]

What if they are from the same environment? What if two kids both become alcoholics or (fill in the blank with major problem) but one commits suicide and the other does not? Same parents, same upbringing.

 

Why? That sort of removes genetic factors.

Because even though they have the same parents, neither their genetic make up nor their upbringing are the same. Similar, yes. The same, no. My siblings and I are not identical and neither was our upbringing.

[LucyStoner]

Are you saying that the one who commits suicide is stronger than the one who sticks it out?

I am saying that weakness and strength have basically nothing to do with it at all.

[Melinda in VT]

What if they are from the same environment? What if two kids both become alcoholics or (fill in the blank with major problem) but one commits suicide and the other does not? Same parents, same upbringing.

 

Why? That sort of removes genetic factors.

How does it remove genetic factors?

 

I have four kids, including a set of twins. Although they share the same parents, they are not genetically identical.

[TranquilMind]

Well then I envy you. I live with the slight hope that I am terribly wrong and that even if I'm worthless and ruined by this point, that perhaps there's something my kids can get out of life.

 

Really in the end we're just a bunch of egocentric bits of dust hurtling through space on a little ball that is one of a million other balls throughout the universe. We make importance out of it all because otherwise life would be too heavy. We focus on the little things in our quest for meaning and importance. For someone like me though, the little things are hard to enjoy, and without those, there is no meaning left.

 

Sorry, the holidays really take a lot out of me.

Wow, sounds like you are having a bad day.  And I'm sorry.

Your kids are meaningful!   Even if you were here just to get them here and they have some really cool purpose, wasn't that worth it? 

 

I don't see it that way at all, that we are just bits of meaningless dust, but I can imagine how one would feel pretty down if that were the case.   I believe we were each created and have a purpose. 

[TranquilMind]

How does it remove genetic factors?

 

I have four kids, including a set of twins. Although they share the same parents, they are not genetically identical.

Not identical, but very close.  I suppose there could be differences that really matter.  The home life is the same though. 

[Dory]

Not identical, but very close.  I suppose there could be differences that really matter.  The home life is the same though. 

 

Seven kids in the family I grew up in. Personalities differ despite growing up in the same home and having the same parents. Because of different personalities, our interpretations and memories are different. Different interpretations of events and different experiences outside the home have led to different problems as teens and adults. One is a smoker, one has struggled with drug addiction, two have never had any problems with addiction of any sort and have led healthy adult lives with healthy families of their own, a couple of us have depression struggles, two of us have had suicide attempts. Really, there is a variety of reactions to the upbringing we had, because each individual responds to life in their own unique way, regardless of whether they have the same parents or not.