How do you deal with lying without "proof?" Parenting advice needed.

[DesertBlossom]

Over the past several months my 9 year old has started lying to me. Usually about stupid things. He's a terrible liar so his face usually gives him away. I made the mistake of saying I could tell when he's lying so it seems he's decided if he's just adamant enough about the lie that I'll believe him.  Unfortunately, a lot of the lies he tells are impossible to prove because it's one child's word against another's.

 

For example, today my 8 and 9 year old had some sort of squabble. I'm sure neither of them were innocent. However, someone threw some leftover breakfast smoothie and made a mess. When I came onto the scene, the 8 year old insisted the 9 year old had thrown it at her. The 9 year old insisted he was being framed and that the 8 year old had done it herself. 

 

I know my children enough to know that it was the actually the 9 year old. However, when I questioned his story he started wailing "YOU NEVER BELIEVE ME!"  I'm just not really sure how to handle situations like this.  I know the 9 year old is lying, but I don't have proof. There were no consequences because I really couldn't verify the story, but after the mess was cleaned up, I told the 9 year old that I was disappointed that he would lie to me. I told him the lie was much worse than the mess that was made.  He walked off in a huff because I wouldn't believe his story.

 

In the past, we've talked about how I lose trust in him when I find out he's lying to me and how I won't know what to believe the next time.  There's a reason I don't believe him.  But that does't seem to be a deterrent.

 

I just don't know how to handle this. The lying needs to stop. But I don't know what to do.

[ErinE]

Everyone cleans up the mess. If I haven't witnessed it, I can't determine who's at fault and I've seen in squabbles that there's rarely a completely innocent party.

 

Other situations, I simply say, "I'm struggling to believe you, because you've lied to me in the past. What can we do about that?" Then our conversation moves on from there. Calling my child a liar tends to rile up him or her. Reminding why I distrust the child seems to deflect arguments about lying and move the discussion forward.

 

ETA: In my experience, lying is a stage. Letting the child know he or she can earn back the trust seems to help. Also giving the child a way to tell the truth without getting in trouble also helps. "Did you spill the smoothie? Yes? I appreciate you telling me the truth. Please help me clean up the mess. Thank you."

[Joanne]

If the lying isn't due to a diagnosable issue, it often becomes a habit. I am not using the term lightly or casually, but truly a "brain habit" where lying becomes the first response.

 

I would back the child up in terms of responsibility and privilege (since you can't trust child, back the child to an earlier stage of development).

 

More later.........

[Tanaqui]

1. Nine year olds are whiny, have you noticed? That's developmentally normal, it's just annoying.

 

2. My approach to lying is to ignore it. Children lie because they don't want to get in trouble, or they want to make the adults happy, or because they prefer the story they're telling to the truth. Same reasons adults lie, actually :) I don't see the point in making a big deal about it, because that doesn't make the lying go away. In your scenario, I might try something like this...

 

You: What the heck? Why is there smoothie all over the floor? And the walls... oh, geez. GUYS?

9yo: It wasn't me!

8yo: YES IT WAS! YOU THREW IT AT ME!

You: Guys. Guys! GUYS! Knock it off, I don't actually care who did it. I just want to get it cleaned up. 8yo, why don't you wipe up the smoothie from the floor, 9yo can get the stuff on the table, and I'll get everywhere else. Sheesh, let me get a sponge.

Them: But I didn't do it!

You: Well, somebody did, and the only thing I know for sure is it wasn't me. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that we need to clean it up now, or it's going to be harder to get later and then we'll get bugs.

Them: BUT -

You: C'mon, let's clean it up.

 

If lying doesn't get them anywhere, they eventually do stop. But you really have to make this a consistent policy - no punishment, and we all work together to fix the problem, whatever it is.

 

[Guest submarines]

When I don't have any proof and it is something minor like spilled smoothie, I don't even listen to their explanations. I'd say, "Okay, okay, guys. I don't care who made the mess, so I don't need to hear about it. Let's just clean up. Here, I'll grab the sponge, DD, could you hold the garbage bag for me please, DS, could you wipe the counter?" I try to be cheerful and positive so that they don't have a chance to squabble about the clean-up and who will do what task.

 

I really don't care who made a mess, and I don't want to give them any opportunities to lie.

 

This is somewhat different, but when I was 7-10 yo, my mother was quite forgetful. She'd misplace an item, and then insist that I took it. She'd tell me that she could see by my face that I was lying when I denied. This was horrific. I felt trapped--I knew I didn't take her item. I also knew that there was something wrong with my facial expression that I couldn't control that she saw as in indication of lying. No amount of explanation and that I didn't care for her lost item to take it made any difference. She didn't believe me, no matter what. I'm not sure I can even convey in words the anguish, anger and frustration I felt.

 

I'd be very careful when insisting someone is lying if there's no proof. You just never know, and there are better ways to deal with the situation. The easiest one--don't give them any opportunities to lie.

[*Lulu*]

Well.....

 

It is a tough spot.

 

If I know one of the kids did something, I don't even give them a chance to lie. I start from the position of stating who did it. (Although I get that the smoothie situation didn't lend itself to that.)

 

When Punk really ramped up the lying we read "the boy who cried wolf" and talked about the consequence of having people not believe you. We also talk a lot about reputations. It goes a bit like this:

 

"you have a great reputation at the library. That is why the librarians are okay with you coming without me and why they save you new books they think you'll like. You built that reputation over a long time but you could destroy it in one day if you went in and damaged books or were rude to the librarians. It is the same way with lying. It takes time to build a reputation of honesty and just once lying can ruin it. When you lie to me it makes it very hard for me to trust you. It takes a long time after you lie before I feel I can trust you again."

 

We also have a stated policy that you will never get in more trouble for the mess up than the lie about it.

 

It hasn't stopped it, but it has helped. We also talk about how it is human nature to want to CYA. That first impulse to lie doesn't make you a bad person. But making the choice to be honest even when you think you might get in trouble, that is having good character. Sometimes when I know he is lying I will say as much and offer him a chance to try again.

[bolt.]

I am very clear when I don't believe a child. I'm careful not to say variations of, "That isn't true." But instead a fairly level-voiced variation of, informative, "I don't believe you."

 

If the child insists, I say, "That's OK." -- which is just a basic neutral indication that the have communicated, and I have heard them, and things are fine between us. Sometimes they still want to know whether or not I believe, so I do tell them again if they ask directly, that I don't believe them, and it's OK that we have different opinions about the situation.

 

Regarding, 'You never believe me!' -- something like, "It's true that I don't believe you about the smoothie, but I mostly believe you. I think you are usually telling the truth. Most often you are honest."

 

What happens then? Is say something like, "What I believe is x, so what I am going to do about it is y." -- Then I proceed with what I think is right, being that I believe whatever it is I believe about the situation. It's ok for me to work from belief without proof. (Mostly that's ok with me because I work within respectful, related and useful 'consiquences' so I don't feel too caught up in the idea of punishing as the kind of 'justice' that requires 'proof'.) This is a strong deterrent because the lying didn't 'work' -- it had no effect at all, and it is likely to be eventually a less frequently used technique (but it remains kind of an instinct anyways).

 

At other less tense times we talk lots about honesty as a virtue that I expect them to be growing in, how honest is good for relationships, and that lies are wrong, and work on the skills of finding honest ways to get/avoid whatever is motivation a temptation to lie... But NONE of that is effective anytime within about a week of an 'I don't believe you' incident.

 

I don't trust children. Almost all people tell lies, and children have less capability to resist the temptation than most people. That's not called "loosing trust" it's called having expectations that are reasonable for humans (in general) and underdeveloped humans (more specifically).

 

People stop or limit their lies when they make a personal commitment to integrity and honesty -- it must be internally motivated. So I work towards that change, and I support good intentions by not making a big deal about slip-ups.

 

Note: the information above is of the 'theoretically, if I was responding ideally' variety. I do not mean to imply that I am actually able to pull that off flawlessly. I frequently suck at execution of good methods in the moment, in spite of my fabulous intellect and writing ability.

[Laurie4b]

One thing NOT to do is to tell him how you know that he is lying. I made that mistake once and the ds was able to change that and I never knew for sure after that. It would have been much better for him if I had.

 

So if there is some body language signal that he is lying, that is your "proof." I like what bolt said above about how to handle it. 

[*Lulu*]

>snip<

 

I don't trust children. Almost all people tell lies, and children have less capability to resist the temptation than most people. That's not called "loosing trust" it's called having expectations that are reasonable for humans (in general) and underdeveloped humans (more specifically).

 

People stop or limit their lies when they make a personal commitment to integrity and honesty -- it must be internally motivated. So I work towards that change, and I support good intentions by not making a big deal about slip-ups.

 

Note: the information above is of the 'theoretically, I was responding ideally' variety. I do not mean to imply that I am actually able to pull that off flawlessly. I frequently suck at execution of good methods in the moment, in spite of my fabulous intellect and writing ability.

 

I agree about keeping the expectations age appropriate. I don't have the reputation convo with the 7 year old. Somewhere as you creep into the preteen years the expectation changes. The tricky part is that you have to be tunes in enough to know where the expectation should fall. And to be kind to yourself because you are inevitably going to call it wrong. There is no specific magic age where maturity meets wisdom and better choices begin. People who act there is make me bananas.

 

Eta- the last sentence is in no way directed at Bolt. I do not find her to be an arbitrary setter of age cutoffs or pickups where behavior and maturity are concerned.

[Katy]

I'd say something like, "Son, have you ever heard of a tell?  That's a term poker players use to describe when someone makes a face when they're lying.  Most people have them, and some are more obvious than others.  Son, you have a very obvious tell that makes it clear when you are lying.  You're going to have to face the fact that you are a terrible liar, and either learn to be honest or learn to lie better.  I hope you choose to be honest, because lying violates the trust in a relationship so that even when you're telling the truth people you've previously lied to or in front of won't believe you.  Also, you won't respect yourself, and that's more important than anything else.  You're not angry at me because I don't believe you, you're angry at me because you have violated our trust so many times I know I can't believe you.  Now, your consequence for the mess is to clean it up.  Your consequence for the lying is to stay in your room all day with just a copy of the Bible and this book about the Boy who cried wolf.  Feel free to look up lying in the bible, or read this old story again, and when you're ready to stop lying to me, apologize, and discuss what you can do to earn my trust again, write me a letter about what you've done wrong and then come find me.  If you're too angry to do that, I suggest you read the book of Proverbs.  It's in the middle of the bible, and it was written for angry young men just like yourself."

[DesertBlossom]

I'm not sure how to not "give them opportunities to lie."  The way it happened is that the 8 year old came running to tell me the 9 year old made the mess. The 9 year old immediately followed insisting she was lying and that she was just trying to get him into trouble.  

 

It was actually the 8 year old that cleaned it up. The smoothie mess was all over an empty 5 gallon water jug so not a big deal. She took it to the bathroom and rinsed it off. She's more compliant anyway, and knowing the 9 year old's personality (he's a difficult child), it was just easier to ask her to do it.  I do feel a little bit like he got away with it, which I worry will encourage the lying.

 

The whole incident was not a big deal. It's the pattern that bothers me. I've told him (when I know he's lying) "I'll give you another chance to tell me what happened" and often he'll just demand even more emphatically his lie.

 

We talked about the boy who cried wolf and that doesn't seem to phase him. 

 

 

I know he feels like he gets into trouble the most. But he's also my highly-emotional, somewhat impulsive, energetic child who can't let things go. While my kids will pick on and tease each other, the 9 year old is the one who escalates the situation to the point someone is hurt or there's a mess. And he has trouble taking responsibility for actions because he blames them on whoever provoked him.  While he's always been this way, the lying is relatively new. And he lies about a variety of things, not just sibling interactions. I do hope it's just a phase.

 

I've been trying to not make that big of a deal about it, other than expressing my disappointment. And I emphasize that I'm more concerned about his lying than whatever behavior he's trying to deny.  But it doesn't seem to be helping.

 

[Katy]

Dessert Blossom- what is his love language?  I suspect he's feeling disconnected to you because he doesn't feel loved.  Maybe his love language is praise (Words of Affirmation)?  Is it possible he sees sister getting more praise and him getting more criticism and so he's feeling disconnected to you?

 

Can you give him whatever consequences he needs, then make sure you talk about how you love him unconditionally, that even if he murders you you'll still love him, and you wish he wouldn't lie because otherwise he is a very good boy?  And talk about all of his traits only in positive terms, and praise every good thing you have noticed about him?

[bolt.]

It's fair in that situation that situation, the lie came out unprovoked. The idea of generally not giving them opportunity to lie is not to ask questions like, "Who did this?" Or "Did you xyz?" Instead say things like, "Let's get to clean up." Or "I see that you did xyz."

 

He's definitely going to stick to a lie in a high pressure sutuation where nothing of what motivated the original lie has changed. This is an example of inviting a lie -- knowing what he is likely to say, but asking him anyways. The more times he lies, the more used to it he becomes. Your goal should be to help the situation diffuse with as few repetitions as possible. Say things like, "I hear you. I understand you. I know what you mean. You don't have to tell me again."

 

He's impulsive. Lies are a self-protective impulse. I'm surprised this is new.

 

Taking responsibility is hard, but it's harder where there must be full blame-toned responsibility. (Ie "I did it. It's absolutely my fault.") It might be worth approaching responsibility conversations with a more nuanced view of responsibility *combined* with contributing factors. We all know that responsibility is rarely squarely 100% -- it's ok that your son wants some aknowledgement of that too.

 

I also don't think that you need to express 'disappointment' that you have discovered that your son has a universal species-wide flaw -- where we have the impulse to express untruth to avert undesirable results. It's not a disaster. It's exactly the same as his other impulsiveness: exasperating and inconvenient, and needs to be worked on.

 

Lying hits adult hot buttons because we experience fear when we are in relationship with someone who essentially treats us as an enemy or threat to hide the truth from. We feel like we are loosing that person. We wonder if they love us. We don't feel quite safe in a home without honesty. We can't predict successful parenting if a child won't be transparent, so we might be a failure. All of those (very strong) reactions are normal. But they happen because we can't always process that the 'person' who did this is a child, and nothing to be afraid of. (The reactions are designed to help get us out of dishonest relationships with our peers.) You can let it go. You don't need to trust your kids. You just need to have confidence that by the time they become an adult, they will be better able to manage the lying impulse. (Which is probably completely true, if you think about it.)

[MinivanMom]

What has been effective here:

 

-Not giving them the opportunity to lie. If I had seen which child threw the smoothie, then I would say, "Why did you throw that smoothie," versus "Did you throw that smoothie?"

 

-Not trying to assign blame for things I don't witness. In your smoothie situation, I would say, "I don't care who made the mess; you are both cleaning it up."

 

-Encouraging truth telling by taking punishments off the table. "I'm not mad about the smoothie, and I'm not going to punish anyone for it. I would like you tell me the truth. What happened?" Then you have to follow through by not getting angry, but instead praising them for being honest.

 

-Catching them telling the truth and responding positively. "Thank you for telling me what you did. I'm very happy that you told the truth. Would like me to help you clean up the mess?"

 

All my kids have gone through a lying faze between 4-9. It's very, very normal.

 

I don't think what your describing with your son feeling ganged up on is normal, though it can happen in big families. I have one child that the other kids blame for things. Sometimes it's true; sometimes she's an easy target. Either way, the things her siblings say are hurtful and leave her feeling ganged up on, and it damages her relationship with her siblings and her sense of value and belonging within the family. I have learned to never hold her responsible unless I know for a fact that it was her. I also have to watch her back and make it clear to the other kids that tattling and speaking critically about her are not okay. I find that she generally needs more love and reassurance than the other kids. The more she feels loved and safe and emotionally supported, the less she lashes out at the other kids and the less she lies. Yesterday, she actually came to me voluntarily and confessed that she had destroyed one of my oldest daughter's sewing projects (don't even ask me what prompted her to do this - she couldn't quite explain). She was crying, and I just gathered her up in my arms and told her how happy I was that she had told me the truth. I didn't punish her, and thankfully, oldest dd is old enough that she was understanding and kind about what younger dd had done. It's taken a long time to get to this point, though.

[DesertBlossom]

Thank you for all the responses. These have been really helpful and it's given me a lot to think about.

 

And bolt, after explaining it that way, I can see how at other times I've put my kids the opportunity to lie and I will be better about it. 

 

This part below has also given me a lot to think about.  I do need to acknowledge his feelings more. My problem has been that he wants to blame his actions on someone else provoking him, even when it's someone much younger. And his response tends to be more severe than whatever provoked him, so it's hard to be sympathetic when he's the oldest and should be the most responsible. 

 

I imagine that today's incident starting out with mutual teasing and it escalated to the point he threw the smoothie. A while back I stumbled across a video on youtube (Duel at the Mall) which was hilarious, and yet very appropriate. It made me glad I don't have TWO kids like DS9. ;)  We've talked about being the peacemaker or walking away, but the 9 year old is my child least capable of doing so. When he gets his panties in a wad he cannot let it go. He's typically the wild card that has to be removed from the situation. But he gets bent out of shape over that because he can't see how his actions have escalated the whole thing. In his mind, it's always someone else's fault that he acted the way he did. Even if I intervene and tell him he's got an opportunity to just walk away from the situation, he won't do it. He's got to react as soon as my back is turned. It's frustrating. I suppose his lying could be his defense mechanism because he's learned he's the only one that gets into trouble even though he believes that everyone else is at fault too. *sigh*

 

Taking responsibility is hard, but it's harder where there must be full blame-toned responsibility. (Ie "I did it. It's absolutely my fault.") It might be worth approaching responsibility conversations with a more nuanced view of responsibility *combined* with contributing factors. We all know that responsibility is rarely squarely 100% -- it's ok that your son wants some aknowledgement of that too.
 

 

I do need to be better about praising him and learning his love language. I also find it reassuring that a lying phase is fairly normal. However, I know I have tendency to react poorly to DS's behavior and I'm trying especially hard not to do that with this issue. He's a bright kid who can be grown up and responsible and yet his explosive, emotional side is frustrating and emotionally draining for me. 

[AMJ]

When I don't have any proof and it is something minor like spilled smoothie, I don't even listen to their explanations. I'd say, "Okay, okay, guys. I don't care who made the mess, so I don't need to hear about it. Let's just clean up. Here, I'll grab the sponge, DD, could you hold the garbage bag for me please, DS, could you wipe the counter?" I try to be cheerful and positive so that they don't have a chance to squabble about the clean-up and who will do what task.

 

I really don't care who made a mess, and I don't want to give them any opportunities to lie.

 

This is somewhat different, but when I was 7-10 yo, my mother was quite forgetful. She'd misplace an item, and then insist that I took it. She'd tell me that she could see by my face that I was lying when I denied. This was horrific. I felt trapped--I knew I didn't take her item. I also knew that there was something wrong with my facial expression that I couldn't control that she saw as in indication of lying. No amount of explanation and that I didn't care for her lost item to take it made any difference. She didn't believe me, no matter what. I'm not sure I can even convey in words the anguish, anger and frustration I felt.

 

I'd be very careful when insisting someone is lying if there's no proof. You just never know, and there are better ways to deal with the situation. The easiest one--don't give them any opportunities to lie.

 

I have to agree here, especially about the bolded -- my own child has gone through stages when she was wrongfully accused of lying by people "who knew her and could tell", when she was telling the truth.  I suspect that having been accused of this for so long actually encouraged my child to start lying (which I caught her at because there was evidence of the lies), since people weren't willing to believe her whatever she said.  Some insisted on continuing to believe their own lying offspring when I confronted them with solid proof that my child was innocent (for instance: one child accused DD of stealing something they brought to school -- on a day when she was home sick).  I would really recommend finding some other way to handle these occasions, other than simply insisting on your child's guilt when there is no evidence one way or another.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would change the focus from blame to either hearing the escalation when it first starts and being there to redirect things or to "here's a problem.  Let's fix it".  I would discourage your other children from running to tell you what happened (ie. tattling) unless someone was in danger.  

[bolt.]

To be clear, that's why I stick to the statement that, "I don't believe it." Rather than insisting that someone is lying.

 

I know it's a fine line, but I think it matters... I'm telling the child about my current perception of the situation, as a statement of opinion, not as an assertion of fact, or an accusation. It's true that someone can be telling the truth, and still not be believed. I say things like, "I might be wrong, but I still think what I think."

 

It's also important that I don't cause my kids to believe that (1) I consider their lies a deep moral offense or a disaster in our relationship, and (2) that I don't punish even if I believe a lie has occurred. I might select a consequence (not a harsh one, more of a natural or reparation-type consequence) that was unwarranted, or give a lecture that was unnecessary -- but this is NOT the kind of result that makes it truly a big deal if it turns out that my perception is the error from time to time.

 

For people whose toolbox includes punitive consequences for lies, I *absolutely* join those advising people not to insist that the child is lying without proof. Punitive consequences (which are probably more part of the problem than the solution) if they are on the table *definitely* require more than an 'I don't believe you' opinion.

[ErinE]

 

I imagine that today's incident starting out with mutual teasing and it escalated to the point he threw the smoothie. A while back I stumbled across a video on youtube (Duel at the Mall) which was hilarious, and yet very appropriate. It made me glad I don't have TWO kids like DS9. ;)  We've talked about being the peacemaker or walking away, but the 9 year old is my child least capable of doing so. When he gets his panties in a wad he cannot let it go. He's typically the wild card that has to be removed from the situation. But he gets bent out of shape over that because he can't see how his actions have escalated the whole thing. In his mind, it's always someone else's fault that he acted the way he did. Even if I intervene and tell him he's got an opportunity to just walk away from the situation, he won't do it. He's got to react as soon as my back is turned. It's frustrating. I suppose his lying could be his defense mechanism because he's learned he's the only one that gets into trouble even though he believes that everyone else is at fault too. *sigh*

 

 

As an adult, he may be the one to reach for an impossible dream and not give up until it's achieved. That kind of dedication and passion is a good thing, channeled properly.

 

Ask my parents how they know.  :tongue_smilie:

[maize]

I would be very careful about telling him you know he is lying if you cannot be 100% certain, because the one time you are wrong he will remember the injustice forever.

 

Something else...siblings squabble, and usually the responsibility is shared. But if one child is more likely to go running to mom with a complaint, the other child is going to feel like they are getting in trouble an unfair percentage of the time. While we as parents may prefer the children come to us rather than continue to escalate a fight between themselves, from the point of view of the child who is tattled on the other child has just chosen a different way to hurt them--by bringing in someone bigger and more powerful on that child's side.

[MinivanMom]

Thank you for all the responses. These have been really helpful and it's given me a lot to think about.

 

And bolt, after explaining it that way, I can see how at other times I've put my kids the opportunity to lie and I will be better about it. 

 

This part below has also given me a lot to think about.  I do need to acknowledge his feelings more. My problem has been that he wants to blame his actions on someone else provoking him, even when it's someone much younger. And his response tends to be more severe than whatever provoked him, so it's hard to be sympathetic when he's the oldest and should be the most responsible. 

 

I imagine that today's incident starting out with mutual teasing and it escalated to the point he threw the smoothie. A while back I stumbled across a video on youtube (Duel at the Mall) which was hilarious, and yet very appropriate. It made me glad I don't have TWO kids like DS9. ;)  We've talked about being the peacemaker or walking away, but the 9 year old is my child least capable of doing so. When he gets his panties in a wad he cannot let it go. He's typically the wild card that has to be removed from the situation. But he gets bent out of shape over that because he can't see how his actions have escalated the whole thing. In his mind, it's always someone else's fault that he acted the way he did. Even if I intervene and tell him he's got an opportunity to just walk away from the situation, he won't do it. He's got to react as soon as my back is turned. It's frustrating. I suppose his lying could be his defense mechanism because he's learned he's the only one that gets into trouble even though he believes that everyone else is at fault too. *sigh*

 

 

I do need to be better about praising him and learning his love language. I also find it reassuring that a lying phase is fairly normal. However, I know I have tendency to react poorly to DS's behavior and I'm trying especially hard not to do that with this issue. He's a bright kid who can be grown up and responsible and yet his explosive, emotional side is frustrating and emotionally draining for me. 

 

*Gently.*

 

We are talking about a fight between an 8 yr old and a 9 yr old . . . an 8 yr old and a 9 yr old. How much more mature and responsible do you expect a 9 yr old to be compared to an 8 yr old? We are talking about a gap of a single year. Why should he be more responsible than his 8 yr old sister? Why doesn't she bear some of the blame for provoking him? Why is his reaction worthy of punishment while the instigator gets off? Why isn't everyone involved getting in trouble? Don't they both bear responsibility for their own actions?

 

If I were in his place, then I would be waiting to react as soon as your back was turned too. If I knew that every conflict would end with me getting in trouble, because I'm "the oldest and should be the most responsible", then it would be pretty hard to keep my cool. Every time a younger sibling says anything or instigates anything, there would be that knowledge in the back of my mind that I'm about to get in trouble no matter who started it or what happens. If that's what I was expecting as the oldest child, then I would probably have an intense emotional reaction to the younger children doing or saying anything to me. Every poke, every whispered comment, every shove, I would be just waiting to explode with frustration, because I know that sibling is going to get me in trouble. And of course I'm going to try to hurt them before mom gets involved or after mom turns her back, because if I know that mom is always going to hold me responsible for everything, then it's up to me to dispense justice, right? And what's the point of telling the truth, when I'm going to be punished no matter what?

 

This is a bad dynamic. At the root of it, though, is your expectation that he should bear the brunt of the responsibility due to his position as oldest. As an oldest child, I strongly question that. I know my younger siblings (one was 20 months and the other was 33 months younger than me) knew that I would always get in trouble. There were plenty of times they manipulated that dynamic to get me into trouble, because they knew I would be punished and they wouldn't. I'm not saying that's what's happening with your kids, but with such a close age gap, I do think having different/higher expectations for his behavior isn't really reasonable.

 

*Very, very gently*

 

I think you need to also consider why you react so strongly to him. I'm sure that you love him very much, but in this post (and others) it sounds like you don't like him very much. I don't doubt that he is difficult and emotionally draining, but being stubborn and sensitive and highly emotional are not necessarily negative traits. Yes, you want him to learn impulse control and honesty and how to take responsibility for his actions . . . but . . . a stubborn child is often the one that will stubbornly stand up to friends who are making bad choices. A sensitive child is often the one that will notice bullying and step in to do something about it. A highly emotional child may be the one with the passion to really excel at something. These can be positive traits if they are channeled in the right direction.

[MinivanMom]

As an adult, he may be the one to reach for an impossible dream and not give up until it's achieved. That kind of dedication and passion is a good thing, channeled properly.

 

Ask my parents how they know.  :tongue_smilie:

 

This.

 

I was definitely this child too: highly emotional and imbued with an overdeveloped sense of injustice. I was also the child who physically put herself between the popular jock and the new kid he was bullying (and I was a foot shorter than them both). I was the homeless kid who was the first one in my family to go to college (on an academic scholarship). I was fearless and stubborn.

 

But, wow, it's hard to have a kid like this. I think I deal better than my husband most of the time, but I'm not perfect by any means. When dd is about to push him over the edge, I just smile and say, "You realize she's exactly like me, right?" He just shakes his head, but he was one of those bizarrely calm, compliant children. He doesn't fully relate to the passion and drive. I hope I'm handling her well and guiding her in the right direction, but it can be so frustrating.

 

[DesertBlossom]

I would be very careful about telling him you know he is lying if you cannot be 100% certain, because the one time you are wrong he will remember the injustice forever.

 

Something else...siblings squabble, and usually the responsibility is shared. But if one child is more likely to go running to mom with a complaint, the other child is going to feel like they are getting in trouble an unfair percentage of the time. While we as parents may prefer the children come to us rather than continue to escalate a fight between themselves, from the point of view of the child who is tattled on the other child has just chosen a different way to hurt them--by bringing in someone bigger and more powerful on that child's side.

I have made the mistake of doing that and it did come back to bite me in the butt.

 

 

 

*Gently.*

 

We are talking about a fight between an 8 yr old and a 9 yr old . . . an 8 yr old and a 9 yr old. How much more mature and responsible do you expect a 9 yr old to be compared to an 8 yr old? We are talking about a gap of a single year. Why should he be more responsible than his 8 yr old sister? Why doesn't she bear some of the blame for provoking him? Why is his reaction worthy of punishment while the instigator gets off? Why isn't everyone involved getting in trouble? Don't they both bear responsibility for their own actions?

 

If I were in his place, then I would be waiting to react as soon as your back was turned too. If I knew that every conflict would end with me getting in trouble, because I'm "the oldest and should be the most responsible", then it would be pretty hard to keep my cool. Every time a younger sibling says anything or instigates anything, there would be that knowledge in the back of my mind that I'm about to get in trouble no matter who started it or what happens. If that's what I was expecting as the oldest child, then I would probably have an intense emotional reaction to the younger children doing or saying anything to me. Every poke, every whispered comment, every shove, I would be just waiting to explode with frustration, because I know that sibling is going to get me in trouble. And of course I'm going to try to hurt them before mom gets involved or after mom turns her back, because if I know that mom is always going to hold me responsible for everything, then it's up to me to dispense justice, right? And what's the point of telling the truth, when I'm going to be punished no matter what?

 

This is a bad dynamic. At the root of it, though, is your expectation that he should bear the brunt of the responsibility due to his position as oldest. As an oldest child, I strongly question that. I know my younger siblings (one was 20 months and the other was 33 months younger than me) knew that I would always get in trouble. There were plenty of times they manipulated that dynamic to get me into trouble, because they knew I would be punished and they wouldn't. I'm not saying that's what's happening with your kids, but with such a close age gap, I do think having different/higher expectations for his behavior isn't really reasonable.

 

*Very, very gently*

 

I think you need to also consider why you react so strongly to him. I'm sure that you love him very much, but in this post (and others) it sounds like you don't like him very much. I don't doubt that he is difficult and emotionally draining, but being stubborn and sensitive and highly emotional are not necessarily negative traits. Yes, you want him to learn impulse control and honesty and how to take responsibility for his actions . . . but . . . a stubborn child is often the one that will stubbornly stand up to friends who are making bad choices. A sensitive child is often the one that will notice bullying and step in to do something about it. A highly emotional child may be the one with the passion to really excel at something. These can be positive traits if they are channeled in the right direction.

You're making assumptions about the dynamics of the family that aren't true.  When I said he blames his actions on some else, I said someone much younger. I was referencing interactions between him and the 4 year old, which don't happen as often, but he still blames him. Yes, all my children are close in age, but even then their reactions are not equal-- the 9 year old's reactions tend to be more extreme. He's more likely to do the provoking and he's the last to stop.

 

I know that I react strongly to him and I'm working on that.  I've given you small snippets of our lives, so I'm not sure where you get that I don't like him.  He is difficult and it is draining. But, he's also got a lot of wonderful qualities. Unfortunately, because I'm here for advice about his bad behavior, I haven't shared the good things to balance it out. 

[DesertBlossom]

As an adult, he may be the one to reach for an impossible dream and not give up until it's achieved. That kind of dedication and passion is a good thing, channeled properly.

 

Ask my parents how they know.  :tongue_smilie:

 

And this is my problem-- I have never figured out how to channel it. I just fail over and over and over. Maybe I lack the patience. Maybe I have too many other kids to give him the time and energy it takes. But it's just hard.

 

Things have gotten better over the last few weeks since my last thread about this same child. I've re-read The Explosive Child and found a lot of it very helpful. I've made a schedule (which we loosely follow) but I bumped his bedtime so he can stay up an hour later than the other kids. He thinks it's the greatest thing and that last hour he's wonderful. He's fun to talk to and loves to share what he's reading. When he's good, he's very, very good. When he's bad, it affects the entire family and that's probably the main reason I don't handle it well. 

[maize]

Is he possibly a bit of an introvert? Being an introvert in a large family can be exhausting.

[DesertBlossom]

Is he possibly a bit of an introvert? Being an introvert in a large family can be exhausting.

 

Hmmmmm... He is quite possibly an introvert. I'm an introvert, and being around little people all day every day is draining and that's probably a lot of the reason I react poorly because it's just exhausting being around the non-stop commotion. 

 

I don't know how to determine if he's an introvert. He doesn't really seek out alone time during the day. He often gets up before everyone and will read quietly. But once the other kids are awake, it's non-stop go time.  I hate to get him in trouble when he's just being silly. But if there are other kids around, he just wants to be goofy and then won't listen or focus. Alone he's usually great though.

 

At the beginning of this year I tried to get him to go to this computer class at the library. He acted like he enjoyed it, but each week when it was time to go he'd complain. His reasons were that he had scouts and enrichment day (all day one day a week through the school district) and with the computer class that was THREE THINGS and it was so much. I just laughed to myself because he was homeschooled so it really wasn't that much.

 

If he were an introvert, I would think that sending him to his room to cool down would at least be somewhat effective, but it's not. Maybe it's the delivery because it comes in the form of a consequence. But still.  When my 6 year old is upset, he goes off to sulk quietly in the corner and refuses to talk about it. The 9 year old wants everyone to know and won't leave anyone alone. 

[DesertBlossom]

I don't know... my 10 minutes internet research would say he's more of an extrovert. Maybe I need to get him in outside activity that he really enjoys.

[Tanaqui]

I also find it reassuring that a lying phase is fairly normal.

 

Not only normal, but developmentally healthy. It's part of learning that you and other people don't know the same things, and don't have the same points of view, and the whole theory of mind dealio. At least, that's what I keep on telling myself when confronted with it, lol!

 

In the enhanced scenario described, to be honest, I'd've been more concerned with the tattling than the lying, but that's because my own darling nine year old is going through a real tattletale stage. That stage is gonna pass just like your kid's lying stage. Just have to wait it out.

[Reflections]

When I don't have any proof and it is something minor like spilled smoothie, I don't even listen to their explanations. I'd say, "Okay, okay, guys. I don't care who made the mess, so I don't need to hear about it. Let's just clean up. Here, I'll grab the sponge, DD, could you hold the garbage bag for me please, DS, could you wipe the counter?" I try to be cheerful and positive so that they don't have a chance to squabble about the clean-up and who will do what task.

 

I really don't care who made a mess, and I don't want to give them any opportunities to lie.

 

This is somewhat different, but when I was 7-10 yo, my mother was quite forgetful. She'd misplace an item, and then insist that I took it. She'd tell me that she could see by my face that I was lying when I denied. This was horrific. I felt trapped--I knew I didn't take her item. I also knew that there was something wrong with my facial expression that I couldn't control that she saw as in indication of lying. No amount of explanation and that I didn't care for her lost item to take it made any difference. She didn't believe me, no matter what. I'm not sure I can even convey in words the anguish, anger and frustration I felt.

 

I'd be very careful when insisting someone is lying if there's no proof. You just never know, and there are better ways to deal with the situation. The easiest one--don't give them any opportunities to lie.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:

[MinivanMom]

You're making assumptions about the dynamics of the family that aren't true.  When I said he blames his actions on some else, I said someone much younger. I was referencing interactions between him and the 4 year old, which don't happen as often, but he still blames him. Yes, all my children are close in age, but even then their reactions are not equal-- the 9 year old's reactions tend to be more extreme. He's more likely to do the provoking and he's the last to stop.

 

I know that I react strongly to him and I'm working on that.  I've given you small snippets of our lives, so I'm not sure where you get that I don't like him.  He is difficult and it is draining. But, he's also got a lot of wonderful qualities. Unfortunately, because I'm here for advice about his bad behavior, I haven't shared the good things to balance it out. 

 

Yes, it is hard to get a full picture online, and, of course, you are sharing the things you are struggling with, not the things that are going well. I don't think anybody assumes that there are not lots of other positive interactions going on.

 

I am just suggesting that when you discuss the conflicts between your children, you seem to be particularly hard on him. Maybe he deserves it, but the details you are sharing about specific conflicts make it sound like there is blame to go around. You seem to believe that antagonizing or tattling are not equal to the emotional responses they generate, and that the older child bears the brunt of the responsibility in any conflict. Many parents do believe that, so that's not necessarily wrong (if that is even your belief). But if your question is, "Why is he so explosive? . . . Why does he have such an out-of-proportion emotional response? . . . Why does he think we always blame him . . . Why has he started to lie?" then I think it's fair to suggest that his perception of how you handle these conflicts may be playing a role. It's going to be hard for him to take responsibility for his part in conflicts when he's focused on how the antagonizing/tattling siblings get off every time. It's going to be hard for him to respond to your guidance if he thinks you always blame him.

 

Only you know whether this is what is actually happening or whether we even have the full picture of the conflicts. I'm putting this out there as something to think about as far as the big picture of your interactions. Maybe it's applicable and maybe it's not.

 

[Chris in VA]

Hmmmmm... He is quite possibly an introvert. I'm an introvert, and being around little people all day every day is draining and that's probably a lot of the reason I react poorly because it's just exhausting being around the non-stop commotion. 

 

I don't know how to determine if he's an introvert. He doesn't really seek out alone time during the day. He often gets up before everyone and will read quietly. But once the other kids are awake, it's non-stop go time.  I hate to get him in trouble when he's just being silly. But if there are other kids around, he just wants to be goofy and then won't listen or focus. Alone he's usually great though.

 

At the beginning of this year I tried to get him to go to this computer class at the library. He acted like he enjoyed it, but each week when it was time to go he'd complain. His reasons were that he had scouts and enrichment day (all day one day a week through the school district) and with the computer class that was THREE THINGS and it was so much. I just laughed to myself because he was homeschooled so it really wasn't that much.

 

If he were an introvert, I would think that sending him to his room to cool down would at least be somewhat effective, but it's not. Maybe it's the delivery because it comes in the form of a consequence. But still.  When my 6 year old is upset, he goes off to sulk quietly in the corner and refuses to talk about it. The 9 year old wants everyone to know and won't leave anyone alone. 

These would be introvert tendencies. BUT there is a Myers-Briggs type (ENFP) that is more introverted--that's mine. I need not to have too much going on. I need quiet time. I also need a lot of social interaction with people I know well.

 

Just addressing that part of your difficulty.

 

:grouphug:

 

Well okay--this part, too--trust is a big thing around here because we've lived thru the lack of it. I have found that, if my relationship with a child is really close, they are more likely to have a sensitive conscience. Connection seems corrolated to trust for us. I have a child who has lied, and lied over time, but we are close, so this child has felt conviction, and confessed. Once it was because we had found something out--in the ensuing confrontation (and there was proof in this instance), I said gently, "I believe in you, but I don't believe you." Another, more recent time, the child could not handle being a liar and came to us. That's what you want to develop in your (younger than mine) kiddo.

 

So I'd say, boost the connection any way you can--love language, presence (the extra hour is brilliant!), laughter, setting up for success, learning more about your kiddo--all can help do that. You want that connection to be as strong as possible, because you are entering the time when you will be parenting by relationship and not as much by control. Your child will be old enough to figure out ways of getting around consequences, which you will have to escalate, if that is the only way you are parenting (I don't think anyone parents solely that way, but it is a common thing to try to control teens). You will run out of tricks. But if you have developed that strong relationship, your child will be less likely (barring any disfunction) to be able to tolerate hurting you by being really out there in terms of behavior. That's my theory, anyway. I've seen it work--and I've experienced the opposite. We do hurt those we love, but I believe we are less likely to hurt those we love when we are heavily invested in the relationship AND have developed tools that help us manage impulses.

 

:grouphug:

 

[maize]

Have you ever studied validation as a parenting technique? Here is a brief overview:

 

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2014/02/06/the-powerful-parenting-tool-of-validation/

 

And a book: http://www.amazon.com/Power-Validation-Addiction-Out---Control-ebook/dp/B005ZE5AYM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1419002880&sr=8-1&keywords=power+of+validation

 

I have found validation to be a powerful tool in working with my kids when they are emotionally keyed up. Our natural tendency as parents is often to tell our kids they are reacting wrongly to a situation--essentially, we invalidate their experience; validation is instead acknowledging that the way the child experiences the situation is real to the child. Not that their reaction is necessarily right, just that their feelings and experience are real.

 

I am not an expert, but I try; this is what it might look like in my house (incident from yesterday): ds9 got in a fight with a younger sibling and kicked the younger sibling. We're working hard right now on teaching ds9 not to use physical violence to vent his frustration. I called him into the bedroom to talk; "hey, ds9, it sounds like you kicked ds4. What happened?" ds9 tells me his side of the story, which was essentially that ds4 was doing things that irritated and annoyed him (ds4 gets a kick out of teasing and provoking people around him whenever he is bored). "hmm, it sounds like you were feeling really frustrated." ds9 goes on some more about how annoying little brother is. "I know it can be really hard to deal with people when they do things that annoy us. You know though that we can't kick people even when we're really frustrated with their behavior." ds9 continues to complain about how irritating his sibling is, but he also starts to cry; his frustration and emotions are very real and he doesn't know how to handle them appropriately. I talk a little bit about things he can do when irritated at a sibling, like walk away and find a book to read. When he calms down a bit I send him to run around the block (our current consequence for hitting or kicking).

 

When I try to use validation in my parenting, it seems my kids are more able to be emotionally vulnerable with me and are less defensive and antagonistic. Anger, talking back, blaming other people, etc. are self-protective mechanisms; when they know I understand what they are experiencing they feel less need to put up barriers around themselves. It doesn't always work, but it seems to help more often than not.

[Storygirl]

I have a couple of thoughts. Not about the lying, but about being the sibling or parent of a challenging child. My brother was an instigator and trouble-maker. He was mean to me and disrespectful to my parents. It took a huge toll on our family. Also, I have a particularly challenging son who stirs up trouble with his siblings as well as another child who is difficult in other ways.

 

It can be extremely difficult to work on the positive aspects of the parent-child relationship when the parent has to spend so much time and energy dealing with the negative behaviors, but I do agree with others who have emphasized how important this is. My mother's relationship with my brother was contentious always. It never improved as he grew up. I don't want that for my own relationship with my own children, so I'm convinced that working on the positive aspects of our relationship are essential. It is easier to say that than to do it, however. It takes an effort to change my own behavior.

 

With that said, I'm going to take a moment to stand up for the little sisters in these situations. Honestly, it is entirely possible that the brother is causing the trouble and that the sister is innocent. Just because two people are involved does not mean that both are at fault. I'm speaking as the little sister here. When you have an aggressive older brother, first, you sometimes need to learn to stand up for yourself, which can escalate things. You don't want the younger more passive child to learn that she is not allowed to take action of some sort when she is being bullied by someone who is bigger and older. The key is to teach her what kind of action is acceptable. That is something your family will need to determine and teach. You can role play it: "When brother does this, what are some things that you can do to help yourself? What kind of responses are not acceptable?"

 

Secondly, about tattling. When I was under duress due to the behavior of my bigger, older, meaner, more aggressive brother, I did tattle. And my mother hated it. She would scold me. As a parent, I get that. I also tell my kids not to tattle and to work things out for themselves. But. When left to work things out with my brother, he would always get his way. He would always win, and I would always lose. There is a risk of creating that dynamic when you forbid tattling in your home.  I needed an adult to intervene on my behalf. I needed help. I couldn't manage dealing with his behaviors on my own, because I was smaller and weaker and more passive and was a rule-follower. So I would get the only help that I could -- I would ask a grown up to help me.

 

So sometimes a child will need to gain the intervention of a parent, even if danger is not involved. My parents did not proactively work with both my brother and me on ways to get along better. They just scolded and punished. My brother and I never learned to get along. So my advice is to work with both of the children on what they can do when things start to go bad between them. If one of them needs adult assistance, how can they get it without being accused of tattling? In other words, instead of coming to you and saying, "Brother did this!" perhaps you can teach her to come to you and say, "Mom, we need help with a problem." Both are ways to ask for adult intervention, but one is tattling and the other is a more mature call for assistance.

 

We're definitely still working through these kind of things in my own family. It's an ongoing process. But my hope is that we can teach our children to manage conflict in more positive ways. One of the things that I do is to have each child tell me only what they did wrong. Not what their brother or sister did, but what they themselves did to contribute to the problem. That way I can ferret out what happened without having them point fingers at each other. And I think it helps them to focus on their own culpability rather than what their sibling did wrong. It's all a process, but I'm hopeful that they are learning how to get along with each other and that as they grow older they will have a friendly relationship with each other.

 

DesertBlossom, I know how hard this is for you, because we are right there, too. Sometimes I feel that my kids are not learning what I have to teach them, because their behavior doesn't improve. I'm an introvert, too, and it is so wearing on me to live in the loudness and chaos of a home filled with very active and often bickering children. Remember to take care of yourself and try to carve out small times of quiet for yourself during your busy days. :grouphug:

 

ETA: Just wanted to make it clear that I am not suggesting that the adjectives I use to describe my brother also describe your son.

 

 

[DesertBlossom]

We're definitely still working through these kind of things in my own family. It's an ongoing process. But my hope is that we can teach our children to manage conflict in more positive ways. One of the things that I do is to have each child tell me only what they did wrong. Not what their brother or sister did, but what they themselves did to contribute to the problem. That way I can ferret out what happened without having them point fingers at each other. And I think it helps them to focus on their own culpability rather than what their sibling did wrong. It's all a process, but I'm hopeful that they are learning how to get along with each other and that as they grow older they will have a friendly relationship with each other.

 

 

Thank you for everything. I definitely discourage tattling and often tell them "you worry about you."  However, my boys tend to get into enough stuff that they aren't supposed to, that sometimes the tattling is okay because it's something I actually need to deal with. With bickering I try to help them work it out between themselves because I'm never sure who did what. My kids play well, but they fight even better. ;)

 

This above part has been the hardest for me. DS9 is bright, responsible with moments of  maturity sprinkled in. However, when he gets emotional about something, all logic goes out the window.  When I sit down with him to review a situation, it's like the order of events gets confused in his mind. He'll tell me that he did x, because someone else did y. When I KNOW that x actually came first. If I lose my temper with him, I can guarantee that'll be the only part of interaction that he'll remember. He'll blame all his actions on the fact that I yelled.  Which doesn't make any sense at all.  I have no idea why he does this.  I am working on how I respond to him, and I've seen significant improvement in the overall situation.  But we still have a long way to go. :) 

[DesertBlossom]

A few weeks ago I read "Hold on to your Kids" and that was probably the most enlightening parenting book I have ever read. I have been trying to focus on our relationship and how my parenting "technique" (or lack thereof) are affecting our relationship.  I'm also reading "Unconditional Parenting" right now which has been enlightening.

 

Maize, thank you for that link and book rec. Our library doesn't have The Power of Validation, but I'll see if I can get it through our ILL.

 

Thank you!

[Storygirl]

 

 

This above part has been the hardest for me. DS9 is bright, responsible with moments of  maturity sprinkled in. However, when he gets emotional about something, all logic goes out the window.  When I sit down with him to review a situation, it's like the order of events gets confused in his mind. He'll tell me that he did x, because someone else did y. When I KNOW that x actually came first. If I lose my temper with him, I can guarantee that'll be the only part of interaction that he'll remember. He'll blame all his actions on the fact that I yelled.  Which doesn't make any sense at all.  I have no idea why he does this.  I am working on how I respond to him, and I've seen significant improvement in the overall situation.  But we still have a long way to go. :)

 

Your son sounds enough like mine, that I'm wondering...does he have (or do you suspect he may have) ADHD or sensory issues? We've found that DS's impulsivity, anger, inability to manage his emotions, overly aggressive responses, and inability to think things through have a lot to do with his ADHD and executive function issues. He is also sensory seeking. Treating and managing his ADHD and his sensory issues have made a difference with his behavior, though have not "cured" all the issues.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Your son sounds enough like mine, that I'm wondering...does he have (or do you suspect he may have) ADHD or sensory issues? We've found that DS's impulsivity, anger, inability to manage his emotions, overly aggressive responses, and inability to think things through have a lot to do with his ADHD and executive function issues. He is also sensory seeking. Treating and managing his ADHD and his sensory issues have made a difference with his behavior, though have not "cured" all the issues.

Yep.  This sounds like my ADD / Aspie with sensory issues.  Not saying that he is the same but it might warrant an evaluation.  

[curlgirl]

1. Nine year olds are whiny, have you noticed? That's developmentally normal, it's just annoying.

 

2. My approach to lying is to ignore it. Children lie because they don't want to get in trouble, or they want to make the adults happy, or because they prefer the story they're telling to the truth. Same reasons adults lie, actually :) I don't see the point in making a big deal about it, because that doesn't make the lying go away. In your scenario, I might try something like this...

 

You: What the heck? Why is there smoothie all over the floor? And the walls... oh, geez. GUYS?

9yo: It wasn't me!

8yo: YES IT WAS! YOU THREW IT AT ME!

You: Guys. Guys! GUYS! Knock it off, I don't actually care who did it. I just want to get it cleaned up. 8yo, why don't you wipe up the smoothie from the floor, 9yo can get the stuff on the table, and I'll get everywhere else. Sheesh, let me get a sponge.

Them: But I didn't do it!

You: Well, somebody did, and the only thing I know for sure is it wasn't me. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that we need to clean it up now, or it's going to be harder to get later and then we'll get bugs.

Them: BUT -

You: C'mon, let's clean it up.

 

If lying doesn't get them anywhere, they eventually do stop. But you really have to make this a consistent policy - no punishment, and we all work together to fix the problem, whatever it is.

This is great. Thank you!