SO: Steering your child - Is EVERY profession getting worse to navigate/be happy in?

[Slojo]

Picking up where I left off on the steering thread. Would you steer your kids towards or away from any profession?  So, I've been thinking about it, and can't get around this sentiment --  EVERY profession that I might think for a minute I'd want to steer my kids into has had someone on this thread or in real life say, "Oh, don't go into _______. It's horrible for X reasons..." So what would be the point of steering a child into something -- it all sounds like either a crap shot no matter what you do (what field guarantees success/happiness or misery/failure) or really based on the individual - some people are just going to shine no matter what they do, and a lot of us are going to be mediocre or outright fail. So maybe focus on helping your kid be one of those people who shine. 

 

Honestly, every major profession that I've ever thought, "Oh, that profession must have it so much better than what I've chosen...," come to find out, nope, they have just as many gripes about their profession as I have about mine. I've had "grass is greener" fantasies about other career paths.  When I've been dazzled by the physics PhD mom in my HS coop, she told horrible stories of how she was driven out of the profession. My doctor friends talk about how hard it is to remain in the profession - even those who love it. Teachers have so many requirements, that they don't recognize the profession they entered. Professors tell their children to become plumbers. Plumbers have odd hours and have to deal with billing headaches. Social workers tell their kids to get into something that "makes money." My friends who make a lot of money are really, really unhappy. No one recommends going into ministry any more -- high rates of depression, etc...  Is anyone HAPPY in any profession? 

 

Some professions -- once respected, esteemed or at least seen as neutral -- have become hotbeds for criticism, or people no longer trust them (at least not as they once did), for example: teachers, lawyers, doctors, government officials/public servants...  Some are considered dying professions, unwise for anyone under the age of 45 to even consider going into (though I think at society's peril --- artists, writers, historians, journalists etc...). Don't even think about become a social worker or going into ministry -- unless you want to remain poor and have no emotional reserves for your own family, yada, yada... The professor route? -- the academy is going to hell in a handbasket... STEM gets a lot of press (except, see note about academia) -- and then you talk to people in the STEM fields, and hear it's not all roses there and, in some cases, people want to get out because of what jobs in STEM have become except for all but a lucky few.

 

Are "all (not sure if I really man ALL)" jobs getting more difficult to navigate/be successful/find contentment in?  Is it something about the nature of modern work that is making this so across all professions? Are the financial pressures of a society in which income inequality is getting worse, not better, contributing to all of this?  Are we just becoming a nation of people critical of every other profession -- is the criticism warranted?  Are legal requirements or financial start-up costs of getting trained or getting a foot in the door making it impossible for most to become successful?  

 

Now I know there are many people who are happy, and do find their work rewarding -- but it feels like I'm hearing more and more about the chinks in the professional armor, no matter what profession people are in. Is it getting worse or are we just whining about it more?  It all reminds me of the comedian's joke (another profession to avoid) - Why do adults always ask kids what they want to be when they grow up? Because they (the adults) are looking for ideas...

 

What do you think?  If my original question has truth to it, then WHAT do you tell your kids about that?

 

 

[Ausmumof3]

I think the longer work hours are a drain on a lot of people and the increase in non productive paperwork etc. a lot of it is beneficial in terms of safety etc but means more work overall for less results. It's the trade off for a safer working environment.

 

In Australia at least is has been shown that over the last six years lifestyles have been going backwards. I think it's hard to feel content when you get less for the same amount of work as you used to even if the lifestyle is still comfortable.

 

My own take is, while the kids are young focus on developing general skills well and when they approach teenage start looking for the place the skills intersect with the current market. Most skills will be somewhat translatable as long as you are flexible. But there's no point looking ahead ten years or more as career paths are constantly changing.

[Guest]

I read something awhile back about how the shift from calling it Personnel to Human Resources had behind it a sort of dehumanizing effect on the workplace.  Personnel at least had the word PERSON in it at some point, whereas Human Resources is all about ... a resource.  

 

I dunno.  I think we have lost a lot of what it means to be a Person, and that shows up in a lot of ways.  

 

And I also like the old saying (I think by Will Rogers):  Things ain't the way they used to be, and probably never was.

 

I'm with Sadie, upthread.

 

[Joker]

Work has changed, where I am, anyway. Casualisation of the workforce, use of contract workers, huge and ever-growing student debt - it's not easy.

 

I guess I take the view that, lacking a crystal ball, I may as well help the kids do what they are well suited for and keen to do...and then hope things work out OK. It seems like a lame philosophy, written out like that, but what else can you do, really ?

 

I so agree! Oldest started suffering from anxiety and depression and so much of it was associated with academics and the future. She was surrounded by friends/students stressing out over every little detail of their four years of high school. They all have been putting so much pressure on themselves. Dd finally said how much her writing means to her but "everyone" says she can't make a living out of it. We found a magnet high school for the arts that isn't easy to get her to and from (45 minutes one way) but it's highly regarded. She aced her audition, was accepted, and is happier than I've seen her in a long time. I'm choosing to believe it will open doors and she will be able to find a way to support herself while doing what she loves. Her being happy is so much more important than her being "steered" toward something society finds more beneficial/important/etc. in this moment.

[aggieamy]

I think there's a lot of fields out there that are still very fulfilling, pay well, and are in demand. I am a civil engineer that specializes in traffic design. Basically I design traffic control through work zones, sidewalks, and traffic signals. I love what I do. It's interesting, fun, and I am well paid for it. There is a huge demand for it. My husband (also an engineer) are self-employed and routtinely offered jobs from our clients. That's not to say it's not stressful or I don't get super busy weeks and am frustrated. Overall though it's great.

 

My best friend was a labor and delivery nurse for 20 years and recently got her midwife certification. She is also very well-paid and loves what she does. The hospital she works at is known for being one of the best in the city and is always looking to hire nurses.

[aggieamy]

I am pleased to hear this, as in my current fantasy world, ds will accept my suggestion that engineering is a good gig.

 

Is it a good gig ?

 

How does one even find out what is a good gig and what isn't ?

I would talk to people in the job that you think your son would enjoy. I have a lot of friends in engineering and they seem to love it. There is so much you can do with it. It isn't just limited to traditional design engineering - there are a lot of opportunities in technical sales and project management. My current job is 90% desk work and 10% fieldwork. My first job out of college was doing construction inspection for the highway department. That was a cool job watching stuff being built. I was out in the field 90% of the time. I didn't do any design back then basically what I would do would be figure out in the field how to fix problems with the design.

[City Mouse]

I think that is why people need to study what they like and not pick a career based on earning potential or perceived stability if that field.

[kewb]

The old saying "do what you love and you never work a day in your life" has some truth in it. Every career has things you won't like/enjoy. Even doing something you love there will be days/weeks/months that just plain stink. Dealing with clients who don't pay, coworkers who are slackers, an unfair boss. It all takes its toll on our happiness.

I do believe that if you follow your bliss you will be happier than if you are a mindless drone in it for the money.

As for steering my teens, I am pushing towards a liberal arts education so they can explore many things and maybe find their passion. We talk about life goals. Do you want a family, travel, early retirement?

[Momof3littles]

I don't know, but I get where you are coming from.  I think part of it is the increasing blur of work and private life (expectation to answer emails, look at documents, take calls after hours, even in professions where that previously was not the norm).  Another contributor IMO is stagnant wages in many fields, coupled with those increased demands from employers.  The increased cost to complete many degrees is another issue, as I think it can lead to people feeling "trapped" in a career longer term.

 

I majored in physical therapy in a time when a master's was required to sit for licensure.  it is still a wonderful field, good employment prospects, etc.  However, in recent years the DPT (doctorate in physical therapy) as become the norm.  It hasn't come with an increase in pay, and DPTs generally speaking don't make more than a MPT.  We still have bachelor's PTs practicing since these changes to sit for licensure grandfather in those with the standard degree in their era.  What has changed is the cost to complete that degree.  When I attended, it was 125K for me to do a 5 year combined bachelor's and master's degree.  I graduated with my master's in 01.  With the DPT becoming the new entry level degree (almost all programs have now changed over to the DPT), the cost has skyrocketed.  It would now cost just under 300,000 with room and board, with no increase in salary.  I had a scholarship that covered part of my expenses, but spots are extremely competitive and have been for years.  Salary and employment prospects are good; however, it isn't a profession that pays a salary where massive loans wouldn't be a burden.  That scares me. 

 

I can think of few employment prospects that pay well, etc. for my kids that don't involve advanced degrees, and then you get into how employable those will be, and what kind of student loans will be involved.  I don't think salary is everything, but the cost to benefit of certain degrees is something that I do think most people have to realistically consider on some level. 

 

My husband works in a STEM field, and I still feel positive about that for my children if they are interested.  However, I think *many* people have no idea what many STEM degrees actually pay (for something like a bachelor's level chemist or biologist), how cut throat and competitive spots in academia have become for those with PhDs (hundreds and hundreds of applicants for a spot these days, and as some in academia joke, you can choose whatever hundred hours in a work week you wish to work ;) )  My DH's degree is in somewhat of a niche field in an industry that has thrived even during the economic downturn, but many of our friends in STEM are under contant threat of layoffs, cuts to benefits, etc.  For years my husband worked in big pharma, and the environment there is toxic in many places these days.  In the past, that was a wonderful  job, people spent their whole career in the same field, maybe moving companies to get promoted, but overall, it was a great place to be, with great benefits, long term security, bonuses, options, etc., but that is falling by the wayside.

 

I expect our kids will have to learn to cobble together skills beyond their degree, they will probably have to consider the possibility that jobs in their time may be more contract/freelance type of things, etc.

 

To the person who asked what is a good gig, I will highly encourage my kids to shadow others in the careers that interest them.  I did this, and I think it was a very valuable experience.  I volunteered in an outpatient PT place in high school, shadowed the school PT in my school as part of my gIEP, shadowed an athletic trainer, etc.  I want my kids to talk to a range of people in the fields that interest them and to really understand both the good and bad of the professions they are considering. That is more meaningful than mom and dad trying to tell them anything.  Ideally, I would like them to talk to several people in different settings, as in healthcare, the hours, challenges, patient population, billing, etc are considerably different in various settings (acute care, skilled nursing, outpatient pediatrics, early intervention, rehab, outpatient orthopedics).  Ditto things like STEM fields, where private industry vs. academia is quite different, so diverse points of view are valuable. I will highly encourage them to engage in student/faculty research and join their professional organization and attend meetings, etc. while students.  Those connections are helpful in guiding their career path, opening doors, and helping them understand the challenges they may face in their chosen profession. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Work has changed, where I am, anyway. Casualisation of the workforce, use of contract workers, huge and ever-growing student debt - it's not easy.

 

I guess I take the view that, lacking a crystal ball, I may as well help the kids do what they are well suited for and keen to do...and then hope things work out OK. It seems like a lame philosophy, written out like that, but what else can you do, really ?

 

I completely agree.

 

The old saying "do what you love and you never work a day in your life" has some truth in it. Every career has things you won't like/enjoy. Even doing something you love there will be days/weeks/months that just plain stink. Dealing with clients who don't pay, coworkers who are slackers, an unfair boss. It all takes its toll on our happiness.

I do believe that if you follow your bliss you will be happier than if you are a mindless drone in it for the money.

As for steering my teens, I am pushing towards a liberal arts education so they can explore many things and maybe find their passion. We talk about life goals. Do you want a family, travel, early retirement?

 

This is the same approach I'm taking with my kids. DD12 is thinking a lot about her future lately, and we've been having lots of conversations about how to decide what you want to do in life. I'm trying to focus our discussions on examining your priorities and on being prepared for any sacrifices meeting those priorities might entail, which is something I feel like I didn't really do when launching.

 

We have people around us who very vocally espouse the "do what you love and the money will follow" mindset. I don't really believe that's true--DH does what he loves, and we're broke :lol: But he is happy, and that's what really matters. I want my kids to find careers that make them happy and meet their priorities, and I want them to have considered those priorities very well in advance (and to have considered the fact that their priorities may change, so they might need to be prepared for that too). 

[creekland]

I think it's mainly perception.  We've been brought up to expect the world from anything we do.  My grandparents worked far longer hours and costs + housework at the time were far greater.  They didn't complain because that's just the way things were.  They enjoyed life anyway.  Ditto that for their parents and I imagine even the cave man spent a good part of his time working for his essentials.

 

Our generation has great expectations as to how life should be and when it deviates from that we complain.  We compare ourselves to both the rich and the fictional TV families and/or magazine pictures and worry that we aren't keeping up.

 

That said, hubby is a Civil Engineer working with the environment, land, and water systems and enjoys his job.  He's very good at it.  He's also a workaholic, so putting in oodles of hours is what he enjoys.  Those oodles of hours give us a decent standard of living financially, so it's a win-win.  I, however, would be miserable at his job as it's not what I enjoy doing AT ALL.  None of my 3 boys wanted to follow in his footsteps either, so we certainly didn't steer them that way.

 

I enjoy teaching high schoolers, but I'm far too lazy to want it as a full time job at school and I'm spoiled that I don't need a full time job.  If I ever did, that would be it as it would suit my personality the best by far and the pay isn't too bad.  In the meantime I work part time subbing and hardly bring in any income by comparison, but it keeps me sane as I do enjoy working some.  Hubby could NOT do my job.  He doesn't have the patience for it, nor is he really all that talented at teaching to be honest.  All of my boys have inherited my ability to teach (based upon tutoring/teaching they've done), but I don't know if any will follow in my footsteps.  They might.  Oldest loves the business world though and is enjoying his job managing a warehouse.

 

The only steering we do is to tell them to follow their desires and work to be good at it, so they can earn a living.

 

Just because a job pays well doesn't mean it will lead to a happy life.

 

And we remind them that EVERY job has its pros/cons and good/bad days.  Deal with them.

[Farrar]

Work has changed and I'm totally with Sadie in that I don't have a crystal ball. We may try to forecast a little, eyes open to the obvious and all that, but mostly you can only prepare to do what you can do and make the best choices for you.

 

The people I know who are happy in their jobs are mostly happy because of their work environment, not their job itself. I've chatted with checkout clerks at Trader Joe's who have said, this is actually a great place to work, sometimes I'm worn out, but they treat us really well and I'm pretty happy. And I've talked with high powered professionals who are like, my office is so dysfunctional and I'm ready to kill everyone and tear my hair out and I couldn't care less what I'm doing. Of course, I've also talked to checkout clerks who are mostly miserable and professionals who love what they do. But I think a huge percentage of that happiness is the people you work with, the flexibility you have to do the work in the way that makes sense for you, the amount of creativity and personalization you get to bring to the job, the responsiveness of the boss to when you have needs or emergencies... And I think those are traits you can find across lots of fields. Of course, you can also find their polar opposites in every field.

[momacacia]

The people I know who are happy in their jobs are mostly happy because of their work environment, not their job itself.

 

This. DH and I run a small business, and whether our employees love their jobs or not, idk. I mean we wouldn't even be there if we weren't "getting paid," so it's not like it's a love, love vacation. ;) But, we do have a great work culture. Everyone enjoys each other, grills lunch together, gets pizza together, brings in treats and enjoys joking and chatting. And when we bring on new hires, we are sensitive during the interview process to how this person will fit in with what we have now. We have a great deal of employee loyalty, which we've 'earned,' but also greatly appreciate, and offer a lot of flexibility especially to those with special family needs that arise.

 

I realize large corporations can do all of that (at least it seems that way, or maybe they can demand more, idk), so maybe it is a benefit of working for a small business.

[Elisabet1]

They MIGHT be getting worse, but I am definitely seeing a millennial issue. Lots of young people today expect to just be able to step out of high school in to a well paying job where they hardly have to work. 

 

I definitely think teaching has gone downhill as a profession. But as far as I can tell, for engineering, things are still pretty good. In some cases, the issues with work are related more to stuff like Obamacare or other government issues. My one cousin says he is having issues because his insurance just went way up. I hear from other people where employees have been laid off due to government issues. Overall, as far as I can tell, in engineering and such, things are good still. 

[Shellydon]

I think that people today expect their job to make them happy. When it doesn't, they are unhappy.   People of previous generations were just happy to have a job and be able to support their families. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I think that people today expect their job to make them happy. When it doesn't, they are unhappy.   People of previous generations were just happy to have a job and be able to support their families. 

 

I think this is probably true, but I also think that job creep has gotten so bad that peoples' jobs have taken over their lives, not leaving much  time outside work for anything else. Meetings are scheduled for after hours or early morning; corporate "morale booster" events are scheduled on people's days off, and they're expected to be there; employees are expected to be checking their email and messages at all times, etc. So if your job doesn't provide you with any satisfaction, that's a massive chunk of your life in which to be unhappy and unsatisfied. Hardly anyone's job is actually 9-5, M-F anymore, and you're supposed to take whatever is dished out because you're just happy to have a job.

 

Or maybe it's just my DH's company! (No, really, I hear it more and more from the people around me.)

[mommymilkies]

I think most job fields have drawbacks in some way.  Jobs are changing, working conditions are getting worse for a lot of people, and pay is stagnant or horrid for a lot of people. Not to mention a lot of jobs getting shipped out of the country because of greedy corporations.

 

Dh works in STEM.  I honestly do not really encourage a lot of STEM jobs right now.  If you have a PhD and want to work in industry, your chances might be good.  If you want to do research or teach-nope. The market is pretty saturated for the job openings, a lot of jobs are overseas now, and companies regularly import many international workers so the jobs are scarce in a lot of fields. I don't have a problem with importing skilled science workers, but when jobs are hard to find, many in the field have gotten vocally irritated about it.  Now, there are lucky people who get great jobs at high pay in fantastic jobs.  There just aren't enough of those positions for every STEM major. 

 

I worked in healthcare.  I actually love it, but got burned out (administration issue-long). I do not recommend anyone go into it only because the most successful and happy healthcare workers were those that truly loved it and felt a calling.  I know *many* people who only went into it because they were promised good pay and are now bitter, burnt out, or just generally miserable.  I think healthcare can be glorified and people get a very wrong view of the job.  Enemas til clear.  Just sayin'.  So many people drop out because they only saw a rose colored look at the field. :p  Also, the market is oversaturated in some areas because when the economy went caput many switched to healthcare on the promise of good pay and a stable job. 

 

My kids want to be: artists, paleontologists, and archaeologists.  I told them that's fine, but they will train for a skilled job at the same time: carpentry, healthcare, childcare, etc.  In this economy you need a fall-back and I can't see that changing soon.

[mommymilkies]

I think that people today expect their job to make them happy. When it doesn't, they are unhappy.   People of previous generations were just happy to have a job and be able to support their families. 

I disagree.  If you read autobiographies and memoirs, you can see that's not the case.  And many of us old folk have a wrongly idealized view of the past.  I'm sure kids never threw fits, companies never did bad things, senators weren't corrupt, and everyone was happy working the coal mines when I was young. ;)

[SparklyUnicorn]

My ongoing advice is ideally you go into something with options.  Meaning don't go into something so specific that you can only do one thing and get one type of job.  That way you can change your mind or try different things. 

 

But really this is so personal.  I don't have any desire to tell my kids what they should be interested in. 

[texasmama]

My ongoing advice is ideally you go into something with options. Meaning don't go into something so specific that you can only do one thing and get one type of job. That way you can change your mind or try different things.

 

But really this is so personal. I don't have any desire to tell my kids what they should be interested in.

I like options. Both dh and I have college degrees in fields with options. He has a business degree and owns a small business. I have an undergrad and a grad degree in social work and a clinical license to practice psychotherapy. I have done everything from utilization management to adjunct college teaching, in addition to doing therapy. Options are good. Life changes. Your interests can change.

[Momof3littles]

 in hindsight the only LA degree I'd recommend is technical writing or editing - big need for both of them.

 

 

DH did some technical writing for a local company on a contract basis when he was pursuing his PhD, and it was great to have that option. That company then helped him network his way to his current job, and they've also tried to woo DH back to them.

 

The company he works for currently is about to hire a full-time technical writer under DH's management, and will pay him about 80K in salary.  He'll come in some days, but also work at home some of his hours as he will have a long commute.  The technical writer does have a PhD, so that salary is going to be higher than a technical writer with a lesser degree.  The nature of the work is such that they wouldn't be much of an asset if they can't look at some complex data and write about it, so the pay is accordingly fairly generous (I assume for a technical writer that's a pretty decent salary, but IDK for sure).

 

Not a bad skill to have available as an option.

[SamanthaCarter]

 

The people I know who are happy in their jobs are mostly happy because of their work environment, not their job itself. I've chatted with checkout clerks at Trader Joe's who have said, this is actually a great place to work, sometimes I'm worn out, but they treat us really well and I'm pretty happy. And I've talked with high powered professionals who are like, my office is so dysfunctional and I'm ready to kill everyone and tear my hair out and I couldn't care less what I'm doing. Of course, I've also talked to checkout clerks who are mostly miserable and professionals who love what they do. But I think a huge percentage of that happiness is the people you work with, the flexibility you have to do the work in the way that makes sense for you, the amount of creativity and personalization you get to bring to the job, the responsiveness of the boss to when you have needs or emergencies... And I think those are traits you can find across lots of fields. Of course, you can also find their polar opposites in every field.

 

yes. a thousand times yes!

[SamanthaCarter]

double posted. 

 

[Slojo]

Thanks for replies, everyone!  I've really been thinking about this since the "steering" thread. I think many people are not only experiencing economic uncertainty, but a real "poverty of work environment." What I most want for my children is that they find (and know how to recognize) great work environments - recognizing that may vary by personality. I don't think that's found in just one field (or even a narrow set of fields). And while I don't think "finding a life's passion" is the end all be all of a career, I don't think steering towards "the most marketable" career choices is exactly what I want to do either (again, I know several people who did the "marketable path" and they are not in those professions because "marketable" wasn't the same as "well-suited for"/"prepared for"/"called to" -- and I know several "what are you going to do with that degree" folks, who took the question seriously, and found a marketable path forward for themselves).  

 

I don't want to steer my children toward or away from any particular career choice (note, I will advise and challenge them to have Plan Bs). Rather I want them to develop competencies to understand how to be in a career over the long haul and find satisfaction, and how to build mutually respectful, ethical and supportive professional relationships. I am hoping that, save one or two experiences (that they learn from without too many scars), that they can largely avoid the "poverty of work environment" that seems to follow so many people all or most of their careers. I think work culture needs a re-boot for large numbers of people. I want them to be inspired by their own capacity to do good work, and to grow from both professional and personal experiences. I want them to do their part to be part of growing, healthy, and robust work environments for themselves and others (which is inclusive of making a reasonable wage - though that is not sufficient in and of itself). I want them to have a profession - in the true sense of the word -- and not just a series of jobs and career moves.  Okay - not sure if I'm making sense or sound too pie-in-the-skyish (Okay, I'm getting a little too "John Lennon dreamer" even for myself: "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one... ;-)").  But, toning down the "dreamer" aspect of it, does this resonate with anyone?

[texasmama]

What you said resonates with me. Part of what we have oriented ourselves towards is the stong possibility that one or more of our children will be living with us longish term. We have a large home with possibilities of add ons, and we live on acreage do building another home on our property is a possibility. We are open to one or more of our kids working with dh in his business but will encourage and support college degrees and other paths as the kids desire.

 

I have been very blessed with every work environment I ever had and also every supervisor. Yes, some were better than others, but I always had camaraderie and support, laughs and friends in each job. I never made a ton of money, but that was not my goal. I have had the opportunity to do some interesting things and the ability to change jobs when I wanted. No complaints here. :)

[stupidusername]

I agree with the OP. A lot of careers are really hard now. To some extent this is a result of technological improvements. My architect friend tells me his firm, which used to employ a dozen people, now gets by with just three due to improvements in computer software.

 

Increased international competition, which comes in various forms (e.g. offshoring and importing cheap foreign labor), is another factor. 40 years ago it was possible for a blue-collar U.S. worker to support his family with a 9-5 job at an automobile plant. That is not a realistic option today; much of that type of manufacturing has moved abroad.

 

I am advising my kids to consider careers that cannot be easily offshored, such as health care. There are some IT jobs that cannot be easily offshored, such as programming pertaining to security, and I would advise them to consider those areas as well. 

 

My son is a talented musician who for all I know might be admitted to a top music school someday. He can of course do whatever he wishes, but if I am asked to pay for his college education, I probably will decline to pay for music school.

 

It's a tough world out there, and getting tougher every day. My kids are well aware of this, and are being encouraged to make realistic decisions. Subsidizing someone to become an unemployed musician seems to me to be poor parenting. 

[IsabelC]

I don't see it as our (parents') job to 'steer' our children toward or away from any career or job. I do think we have a responsibility to help them go into whatever they want to do with their eyes open and with as realistic a set of expectations as possible. More broadly, we are trying to impart a system of morals and values within which the children can make all their life decisions.