Uh....this is really tempting. Help me think through it.

[Dmmetler]

I got some responses back on the Middle College program, which I was thinking of in a few years, and there's a good possibility that DD could start as early as NEXT August. What's more, it looks much better for her than I would have thought.

 

Apparently, my local district has two programs. The ones for the 16-17 yr olds who are bright, bored, and unwilling to play the AP game is at the local community college. However, they also have one that starts at 9th grade that is actually physically at a middle school and a local private university campus. The students start in 9th grade or when "9th grade equivalent" and do high school in a self-paced, highly accelerated atmosphere (literally, a cohort of a couple of dozen kids at most each year), and then start doing college classes as soon as they're ready. College tuition is paid until they reach their graduation year, and the website seems to imply that this is based on their K entrance year, which would possibly mean that students who enter as middle school age kids could finish a BS with tuition paid.

 

DD could probably qualify this year, unless she messes up on either the placement test or the interview. She has the required test scores.

 

I want to check with DD's mentor on the status of their bio program, but I know the private school has a decent reputation for overall academics. A lot of homeschoolers do DE there and then transfer to another college.

 

However, I suspect this would need to spell a strong reduction, if not the end of DD's research. I just don't think she could do a PS high school program, let alone a compressed/accelerated one, and have the 20+ hours a week she currently spends on reptiles and amphibians.

 

We'd need to start the application process by December 1 for next year if we want to pursue it. There's an open house coming up. I kind of feel that going may be opening Pandora's box-so I'm trying to decide whether to open it.

 

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

Go for the open house and see what your gut feel tells you.

[crazyforlatin]

At least you have an option to consider. I'm not sure if we have a Middle College for kids younger than 14 year old in the Bay Area. It really is tempting with everything you described.

[EndOfOrdinary]

That sounds fantastic. I know we would jump on it, but mine is ready to go to college tomorrow if we could find a good fit. Have you asked her? Is she wanting to hold onto being a kid, or at least appearing like a kid?

 

ETA: would it be possible for her to start not next August, but the one after? That might give you just a bit more prep time to either get used to it, to let her have a last kid year, or to shore up research so she feels like she was really able to finish.

[8filltheheart]

Is your dd ready to do the equivalent of high school output at a constant pace across all subjects? That would be my first question for your dd to ask herself. You said it is at their own pace, but since it is 9th grade, I would assume they are going to expect high school credits completed in a single yr in order to give high school credit.

[Dmmetler]

Is your dd ready to do the equivalent of high school output at a constant pace across all subjects? That would be my first question for your dd to ask herself. You said it is at their own pace, but since it is 9th grade, I would assume they are going to expect high school credits completed in a single yr in order to give high school credit.

 

That's a concern for me as well. My guess is that it would actually have to be more than at high school pace since it seems designed for doing high school in less than 4 years and then moving on to college classes. And while she's accelerated, a lot of her acceleration happened when she was younger. I don't feel like she's moving super-quickly now that she's on upper middle/early high school content, and she's certainly doing different output (AOPS problem sets of fewer than 10 problems at a time for Algebra 1, for example). 

 

I expect we could wait a year, or even 2 if that was desired, since she's 5th grade on paper this year and 4th grade based on school district cut-offs. I'm just not sure that she'd get as much benefit if we waited. I'm thinking that we're probably looking at some form of college experience for credit within 4 years or so anyway, at least in some areas.

[HelenNotOfTroy]

Is your daughter willing to reduce her research time as needed to do this or is the research a better use of her time and attention for now?

[wendyroo]

I wouldn't do it yet.

 

1) I think there is value in doing college work while living at a college when you are (approximately) college age.  I think I benefited from taking some college classes starting when I was 13, but the goal was always for me to learn interesting things, practice my study skills and interact with students much more academically minded than my public school peers; the goal was never to speed me through my undergraduate degree.  I did enter my freshman year with many transfer credits, but I primarily used those to enhance, rather than shorten my undergraduate studies.  With credits under my belt and some requirements already met, I had flexibility in my schedule to fit in the classes I was most interested in along with extracurriculars, work study, research and volunteer opportunities.  My time at MIT was amazing, and I would not have wanted to be accelerated past it, just because I was able to do what could pass as college work at a young age.

 

2) Since I would not be interested in my children earning their bachelors while in high school, there would be no reason to start an accelerated high school program this early.  I would want to give my kids a couple more years of exploring their own interests, solidifying their foundational skills and moving into rhetoric stage thinking so that they were able to get the most out of their high school courses rather than just being able to keep up.

 

3) I would be hesitant to take away your daughter's research opportunities.  I was a profoundly gifted child who spent a lot of time interacting with adults: hobby groups, mentors, professors, etc.  Society at large thought I was weird, my peers mocked and tormented me mercilessly, my extended family thought there was something wrong with me, and yet these groups of intelligent adults acted like I was a valuable, smart, contributing member.  They doted on me, and at that point in my life, some doting was exactly what I needed to shore up my self esteem.  Your daughter probably doesn't have some of the same issues since she is homeschooled, but once you put her in the program, some of them might start cropping up; even accelerated programs are not immune to competition, resentment and bullying.

 

Wendy

[kiwik]

Not saying you should do it but WOW. Living in a country with no options (well in year 7 (6th grade) there is an extension class for the top 15% by achievement and there is an expensive private one day a week extension class some places. But basically one size fits all with all schools using the same curriculum and achievement standards - the fact that some people have choices is something to be celebrated even if you don't use the choices.

[Dmmetler]

What's amazing to me is that I actually live in a suburb that doesn't have much of anything. However, two years ago, the city district merged with the county, and the result is that all county residents, even those in the small towns that have their own school districts and pay county taxes have access to the school system. I knew they had some good magnets for the high school level, but hadn't realized there was anything available before high school until some of the folks from other areas at the conference pointed out that they participated in middle college, and that maybe it would be worth considering. I was thinking the paid DE at the community college program-which isn't all that exciting since the state has state programs that pay for community college anyway, but this actually sounds like a great option for some kids.

 

Whether it's a good option for DD since she DOES have the research opportunities and mentoring is another question.

[JennW in SoCal]

Is your dd ready to do the equivalent of high school output at a constant pace across all subjects? That would be my first question for your dd to ask herself. You said it is at their own pace, but since it is 9th grade, I would assume they are going to expect high school credits completed in a single yr in order to give high school credit.

 

This is an excellent question, and it to me it begs another question.  What is the high school curricula like?  If it is just the standard public high school material, is it really and truly worth doing instead of your own unique homeschool program?  

 

High school was a joy to plan and do with my kids.  It was uniquely tailored to them, and the material I couldn't teach/coach/mentor was outsourced to the community college.  I shudder when I look at public school text books, and rushing a young tween/teen through the material in those texts just doesn't seem like a good education.  

 

I wouldn't do it yet.

 

1) I think there is value in doing college work while living at a college when you are (approximately) college age.  I think I benefited from taking some college classes starting when I was 13, but the goal was always for me to learn interesting things, practice my study skills and interact with students much more academically minded than my public school peers; the goal was never to speed me through my undergraduate degree.  I did enter my freshman year with many transfer credits, but I primarily used those to enhance, rather than shorten my undergraduate studies.  With credits under my belt and some requirements already met, I had flexibility in my schedule to fit in the classes I was most interested in along with extracurriculars, work study, research and volunteer opportunities.  My time at MIT was amazing, and I would not have wanted to be accelerated past it, just because I was able to do what could pass as college work at a young age.

 

2) Since I would not be interested in my children earning their bachelors while in high school, there would be no reason to start an accelerated high school program this early.  I would want to give my kids a couple more years of exploring their own interests, solidifying their foundational skills and moving into rhetoric stage thinking so that they were able to get the most out of their high school courses rather than just being able to keep up.

 

3) I would be hesitant to take away your daughter's research opportunities.  I was a profoundly gifted child who spent a lot of time interacting with adults: hobby groups, mentors, professors, etc.  Society at large thought I was weird, my peers mocked and tormented me mercilessly, my extended family thought there was something wrong with me, and yet these groups of intelligent adults acted like I was a valuable, smart, contributing member.  They doted on me, and at that point in my life, some doting was exactly what I needed to shore up my self esteem.  Your daughter probably doesn't have some of the same issues since she is homeschooled, but once you put her in the program, some of them might start cropping up; even accelerated programs are not immune to competition, resentment and bullying.

 

Wendy

 

I'm so glad to read this from someone who has lived it.  My own ds did the same -- community college classes at a young age, starting college at 17 as a freshman with a bunch of transfer credits under his belt.  He did all several internships as a teen, preferring the company of adults to his peers.  He is thriving now, absolutely thriving at college, so I of course want to advocate for this kind of approach.  I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking this. 

 

I guess my main question to the OP is why the rush?  If your dd is doing well with general homeschool academics and if she has such a terrific research position, why change anything?  Why the rush to college?  

[8filltheheart]

This is an excellent question, and it to me it begs another question. What is the high school curricula like? If it is just the standard public high school material, is it really and truly worth doing instead of your own unique homeschool program?

 

High school was a joy to plan and do with my kids. It was uniquely tailored to them, and the material I couldn't teach/coach/mentor was outsourced to the community college. I shudder when I look at public school text books, and rushing a young tween/teen through the material in those texts just doesn't seem like a good education.

 

 

I'm so glad to read this from someone who has lived it. My own ds did the same -- community college classes at a young age, starting college at 17 as a freshman with a bunch of transfer credits under his belt. He did all several internships as a teen, preferring the company of adults to his peers. He is thriving now, absolutely thriving at college, so I of course want to advocate for this kind of approach. I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking this.

 

I guess my main question to the OP is why the rush? If your dd is doing well with general homeschool academics and if she has such a terrific research position, why change anything? Why the rush to college?

I agree with you and Wendyroo, but I am assuming that dmmetler is already asking those questions based on her presence on this forum.

 

My ds is thriving and having a fabulous time in college. I can't imagine having done it any other way. He is loving the college experience, having a ton of fun while making very high As. He has called me multiple times to tell me how glad he is with the approach we took. I can't imagine taking this time in life away from them.

[Dmmetler]

Honestly, the big benefit to me is the idea of a group of pre/early teens who are ALL academically accelerated to this level. She really, really needs peers, and that's one thing I haven't been able to provide.

 

I don't know if this would do so, either. But it's not a case, necessarily of "What's the rush". It's more a case of trying to see the future and figure out what is needed, not just now, but two, three, four years down the road. If it's a choice between having a kid who is more and more unhappy, mopy, and depressed at home with the ideal curriculum and having a kid who is happy and comfortable in a group of kids "like her" with a less than ideal curriculum, suddenly less than ideal starts to sound better.

 

 

 

 

[JennW in SoCal]

Honestly, the big benefit to me is the idea of a group of pre/early teens who are ALL academically accelerated to this level. She really, really needs peers, and that's one thing I haven't been able to provide.

 

I don't know if this would do so, either. But it's not a case, necessarily of "What's the rush". It's more a case of trying to see the future and figure out what is needed, not just now, but two, three, four years down the road. If it's a choice between having a kid who is more and more unhappy, mopy, and depressed at home with the ideal curriculum and having a kid who is happy and comfortable in a group of kids "like her" with a less than ideal curriculum, suddenly less than ideal starts to sound better.

 

 

Oh dear!  No wonder this option sounds so tempting.  If only there was a crystal ball, eh?  

 

Sorry if my "what's the rush" comment sounded too abrupt.  So much of what makes our kids and our homeschool tick is of course unseen on the forums.  The teen/tween years can be such a tough time as it is -- there is such a strong urge to belong to a tribe, to fit in.  You might get some sense of the kids when you visit the open house, see if it seems like the right fit.

 

:grouphug: as you continue your journey of figuring out the right thing to do.

[lewelma]

The main thing that my older loves about homeschooling is the freedom.  Freedom to choose his classes, the specific resources to use, the time to spend.  He does not have to keep to someone else's timetable or do someone else's assignments.  Instead, he can juggle a balanced schedule over a whole year -- intensity in math for a couple of months, followed by intensity in music, etc.  He has no tests to cram for, except one or two annual exams, so he does not have to work towards one assessment and then another and then another.  He feels that this gives him authentic learning because he can take the time he needs and learn without pressure or competition.

 

He also is low on friends.  His best friend moved away in February, and we are only now realising how important it should have been this year to get him with other kids of like interests.  So next week he starts the summer Badminton season; and in February he will audition for the Youth Orchestra.  Unfortunately, there simply are no kids here at his level of maths to form a club.  So what I have told him is that he needs to make friends through his secondary interests like music and tramping. 

 

All this is to say, there are tradeoffs as you well know.  And I think you need to lay it all out for your dd, as many possible pros and cons as you can come up with, and then have *her* rank them.  She needs to know that there is no utopia - that she will both gain and lose by going.  The program you have created for her is unique, and she may not fully recognize this yet.

 

Good luck!  and lots of :grouphug:

 

Ruth in NZ

[raptor_dad]

Middle College programs and Early Entry/DE  programs often have very different goals.

 

Middle College programs are often pitched towards what I'll call "high-potential" at-risk kids. It gets them out of bad high schools and allows early success in college. This sort of program would be a bad fit for a young gifted kid.

 

I would carefully look at the program and see if it follows that model or if it is more geared to radical acceleration.

[SebastianCat]

One thing I haven't heard mentioned yet, and it may seem silly, but you may want to consider the effects of puberty in the situation.   You mention that your daughter is 4th grade by school district cutoffs, so she's 9-10, right?   I would definitely look at the program and consider both the physical and mental differences based on the ages of the students who participate.   The middle school years involve constant physical changes - and there is a HUGE difference between a 4th-5th grader and an 8th grader.   

 

My 12-year-old DS is not as high functioning as your DD, but if he were tested I believe he'd be labeled as clearly gifted.   With that in mind, I was shocked at how much of an effect puberty had on his brain and his ability to THINK, starting when he was 11 (and he's not finished yet - still several years to go).   There have been many days where I would think to myself, "This kid is brain damaged!"    Not to mention the fact that he's always hungry and often tired because of the constant growth spurts.   My DD is 10 and she is showing changes of puberty a year earlier, so at least I know better what to expect.

 

I would just keep this in the back of your mind as you evaluate the program.    If all of the children are of a similar age as your DD, it might not be quite as much of an issue.   But if some are experiencing huge physical and mental changes while others are not, I might hold off until she's actually closer to high school age physically before starting a program like you describe.   I would probably continue to homeschool my 10-year-old DD rather than put her into a program with 13-14 year olds.    When she's 13 or 14, my decision might be totally different.

[Butler]

What is the end goal for your child? Is it an academic/research career? If so, she will need PhD credentials. To get into grad school she is going to need an reputable undergrad school with a strong program and opportunities for research. Can this program provide that?

 

How would she earn a bachelors through dual enrollment? Those credits count toward college but I've not heard of someone earning a bachelors degree, no matter the number of credits accrued, without actually being admitted to a bachelors degree program. Maybe I'm missing something?

[JennW in SoCal]

 

My 12-year-old DS is not as high functioning as your DD, but if he were tested I believe he'd be labeled as clearly gifted.   With that in mind, I was shocked at how much of an effect puberty had on his brain and his ability to THINK, starting when he was 11 (and he's not finished yet - still several years to go).   There have been many days where I would think to myself, "This kid is brain damaged!"    Not to mention the fact that he's always hungry and often tired because of the constant growth spurts.   

 

 

Ah yes, the walking brain-stem years.  It seems some days that the only functional part of the brain is the stem governing the basics -- eat, sleep, grunt.  There are days when they've forgotten how to do basic math, then days when they are back to making uncanny connections.  They are like gangly, smelly toddlers for a while, with moods that swing from silly kid to moody adolescent to the clingy and uncertain child who needs nothing more than to cuddle on the couch.  

 

They don't fully return to human kind til they are 15-16. 

[lewelma]

 There are days when they've forgotten how to do basic math,

 

:svengo:  

 

You make me laugh, Jenn.  I just love BTDT boardies. :001_smile:

 

 

 

with moods that swing from silly kid to moody adolescent to the clingy and uncertain child who needs nothing more than to cuddle on the couch.

 

My boy just told me that we need more 'family time'. I was like really?  Never expected that from a 14 year old boy.

[Crimson Wife]

Honestly, the big benefit to me is the idea of a group of pre/early teens who are ALL academically accelerated to this level. She really, really needs peers, and that's one thing I haven't been able to provide.

 

Saying this gently, but for my own kids, I wouldn't consider a 14 or 15 y.o. 9th grader to be a peer of a ~10 y.o. 4th/5th grader. I see a huge difference now just between my turning 12 y.o. 7th grader and some of her friends who are 10 but still prepubescent.

[8filltheheart]

Honestly, the big benefit to me is the idea of a group of pre/early teens who are ALL academically accelerated to this level. She really, really needs peers, and that's one thing I haven't been able to provide.

 

I don't know if this would do so, either. But it's not a case, necessarily of "What's the rush". It's more a case of trying to see the future and figure out what is needed, not just now, but two, three, four years down the road. If it's a choice between having a kid who is more and more unhappy, mopy, and depressed at home with the ideal curriculum and having a kid who is happy and comfortable in a group of kids "like her" with a less than ideal curriculum, suddenly less than ideal starts to sound better.

I would doubt very seriously that you will find a group of kids like her in the setting you describe. More than likely it will be a group of slightly advanced kids, so I'm guessing that the 9th graders are probably 12-14 and not 9 or 10.

 

I would also expect that she would find the curriculum more than "less than ideal" and more like "incredibly confining."

 

You know your own dd, so investigate with an open mind. But, I know that my own kids, who are not on par with your dd, had to find friends focused around completely different interests or make the most of summer camps. My 10th grader is surrounded by girls her age, but she has no deep "soul mate" type friendships bc she lives in a completely different intellectual world than they do. But, she is still friends with them. She goes to movies, hangs out at the mall, goes on youth group trips, etc. She also spends hours training for figure skating, so her life is not just controlled by her intellectual pursuits.

 

Changing where she attends school would unlikely change her relationships. In a university setting she might find people with the same intellectual interests but they wouldn't match up to her teenage ones.

 

Fwiw, on a different note, I have never had a teenager experience brain fog. ;)

[musicianmom]

I can't like 8's post on my phone, but I agree with her.

[Dmmetler]

Thanks, everyone! I was getting a little blinded by the "There's actually something out there"-I've got a lot of questions. We probably will go to the open house and check it out, but I'm guessing it probably won't work.

]

 

[kiana]

I wouldn't do it yet.

 

I would consider, though, that in a few more years -- when she has had a chance to even out and mature a bit -- that it may be an excellent fit and a way to access college courses for free. You may find that if she waits until 12-14 (when she will probably be the most accelerated kid in the program) that she may be able to handle high school/college courses in all subjects AND have time for research as well. I don't see it as a good fit now.