Book a Week in 2014 - BW39

[mumto2]

I am also in the group that feels library shelves should not be censored but objecting to a book being used in a classroom setting is acceptable. Naturally the parent objecting needs to have read the material.

 

Before we moved to the UK one of the few disagreements dh and I ever had bookwise was over Harry Potter. One of his friends objected strongly to HP and had shared his views with dh, although I honestly don't think he had ever read them! Dh hadn't read and was simply repeating what he had been told. I was reading HP to the dc's after looking at several home ed blogs etc. in the UK and realizing that knowing the story would give my kids something easy to have in common with potential friends. I had already read the series at least twice at that point and did not agree with friend in the slightest. I prevailed. Since that incident Dh has watched the movies multiple times and visited the movie studio.....he joins me in the puzzled camp now! :lol:

 

One thing I noticed on the Slaughterhouse Five list that was interesting imo was three of the districts where the book was banned are relatively close geographically, not side by side but close enough to where we lived at one time so I know a couple of families in each area still. I wonder if the objections spread via word of mouth as opposed to being brand new.....

[Onceuponatime]

Just a couple of random comments & ramblings from the earlier conversation...

 

 

 

This is a topic that I also have mixed feelings about. When I was in high school, we were not assigned controversial books. However, one English teacher I had handed out a list of influential books and classics and told us we would be well educated if we chose to read books off that list. Very few people did. For a few years, I read almost exclusively off the list. I read many of the books on the banned books list. (mostly ones that interested me). Some of them I did toss aside in disgust. I remember being confused when  I wrote a book report on A Brave New World and my Social Studies teacher, a man, was concerned that "a nice girl like me would read an awful book like that." My father made me take back a library book that I was reading that had witches and magic as a theme. He was concerned for my spiritual well being. I did as he said but I was confused again, thinking "but you let me read all those other books which were far worse."

 

When I got to be a parent, my perspective changed. Suddenly I was concerned for my own children's psychological and spiritual well being. I was careful about what I assigned my children to read and I reread everything myself to see  what I wanted to hand them and what I wanted to avoid. I had become very sensitive about subject matter.

 

Then Harry Potter came out. I listened to people ranting on both sides. My oldest son wanted to read it, so I asked him to let me read it first. It was one of the best children's books I had read in a long time. From then on we had family squabbles about who would get to read the next one first. That kind of opened the gates for me. I gave my son a list similar to the one I had in high school and told him that even though I might not assign some of them, they were considered by  to be iconic in some way. He could read what he wanted to read from them, without obligation. This method has worked well in our household, each teen being free to branch out and read what they want to read without me feeling that I have pushed something on them that might be damaging to their psyche.  Plus, if I have read a particular book that they choose, I always mention that fact, along with how old I was and what I thought of it.

 

Does it still make me uncomfortable? Yes. It's hard to wrap my head around the fact that my sweet babies are being exposed to some of the baser things in life. Then I have to remember where I've come from and what I've read and how I've managed to figure out what I'm willing to put up with in the way of content. A couple of my children decided to self censor even more than I would have them do. That is also disconcerting, but they still found ways to branch out and read adult books that interest them.

 

I guess what I'm saying is I think options should always be kept open. If a teen, not their parents, would rather not read a certain book because of content, they should be free to choose another from an accepted reading list. I don't think anyone should be forced to read fiction that they do not want to read, unless it is pertinent to the class subject. Let's say someone objects to reading The Scarlett Letter, then they could be given The Sermons of Increase Mather to read instead. :lol:

[TeacherZee]

My seniors have started their presentations and so far they have had thoughtful and insightful things to say about the books they were assigned. We talked a bit about the intended audience of for example Fifty Shades. I've read the books. I told my students I would never assign them the books. Not because of the content but because I think they are badly written. I have some concerns about how relationships are presented, but my biggest concern in actually the writing. Now we all agreed that it wasn't perhaps a book that belonged in a middle school library but it wasn't a book that should be completely banned.

 

My feelings are I would rather my child read about difficult things in books and discuss them with adults, be it me, a teacher, or other adult than that they go out in the world having only heard about unicorns and rainbows. Now the books do need to be at a level that is appropriate, and as has been said upthread that varies from child to child.

 

Of the books that I have read from the many banned book lists only The Kite Runner has ever left me feeling disturbed, but I still think I am richer in understanding for having read it.

 

For me, as a high school teacher, I think high school is a good place to take off the restrictions on reading material for all, before that I think one should be more careful so that the material is presented in an age apropriate way.

 

Does this make sense at all. I've been having a heated debate over the advisability of a hamster in a high school classroom so my brain is a bit fuzzy.

[Guest]

 

My feelings are I would rather my child read about difficult things in books and discuss them with adults, be it me, a teacher, or other adult than that they go out in the world having only heard about unicorns and rainbows. Now the books do need to be at a level that is appropriate, and as has been said upthread that varies from child to child.

 

I like your whole post, but this ^^ especially. This is the way that we are (trying) to approach raising our kids, much to the chagrin of some of my friends. In fact, I got a huge box of books in the mail yesterday and in light of the recent banned books conversation and as I was lovingly adding them to our library, I was thinking of how much books are my (our) friends. How they bring so much satisfaction, how they walk through the difficult times with us, how they introduce us to the harshness of life, and yet at the same time bundle us in somewhat of a safety net. (That safety net being the opening of dialogue and the chance to talk through issues with people - us with our kids, with book groups, with spouses and friends...and a time to digest that content, as well.)

[Pam in CT]

Ah, Angel my dear ostrich friend-

 

I wrote out a long response last night to your thoughts on school libraries generally and Mists of Avalon specifically (which are complicated but, just for the record, I feel compelled to say right at the outset here that whatever my thoughts about libraries and/or Morgan Le Fay, I am definitely not.in.favor of brother-sister incest itself, lol...)

 

... but it got so rambly and personal and OT that I abandoned it.

 

To me, the issue about banning books in libraries is about one group of people restricting the liberty of others.

 

And because books can be so formative in opening up whole new worlds -- lands of the imagination like Avalon or Middle Earth or Hogwarts, yes, but also lands of ideas that transform the known world like John Locke and the Federalist Papers, or powerfully critique / rock the known world like Huck Finn and Ayn Rand... restricting library books veers close -- too close, imo -- to an effort to restrict freedom of thought, which is about as insidious as liberty-tramping gets.  Like in, you know, 1984... :laugh:

 

I was thinking after I went to bed last night and again on my morning walk with the dog today about your uneasiness with middle and high school libraries, specifically, and I think that is a particularly volatile, shades-of-gray, zone.  

 

Because on the one hand: it's kids, and you're right, we do restrict the choices/freedoms to which we expose our kids, all the time, as individual families certainly, and also as schools as a whole, like when, to use your example, the cafeteria limits junk food; or the school limits allergens, or imposes uniforms, etc.

 

On the other, this discussion is about the library, not a particular class reading list (the definition that Stacia linked of what makes the ILA and ALA lists is clear about that distinction -- parents requesting that their particular child be given an alternate assignment, as I have done on two occasions, would not make the list), so it's really not a matter of parents exercising judgment over their own children; it's rather a matter of imposing their judgment/preferences on other people's children.  

 

(I'm actually not entirely comfortable framing the issue that way, since I tend to think of children not as possessions, or "rights," of their parents, but rather as persons unto themselves, with ever-increasing agency and free will and rights of their own... but I agree with you that the process whereby parents cede, and kids assume, responsibilities and the attendant decision-making, is a gradual one, so I think that is a side issue...)

 

And the discussion is, I think, somewhat further complicated when it's taking place in a venue like this one comprised principally of people who have self-selected out of schools... Making the choice to send a kid to a particular school does mean, intrinsically, that we're ceding considerable decision-making and influence to the school.  Certainly not *all* parental influence (I recently, for example, arranged for my sensitive 11 yo to do an alternate science assignment than the dissection project), but if as a parent I find myself troubled by multiple books on the reading list, and the math curriculum, and the political bent in social studies... it might be a bad school fit; I might be better off homeschooling or finding a private / parochial school better aligned to my world view, KWIM?  So I guess I would ask you -- as a devoted, caring, literature-loving homeschooling parent who is very successfully guiding your own kids' reading -- what would motivate you to restrict what's on the middle school library shelves?

 

 

Participating on these marvelous, world-opening BAW threads, even for a short time, has really helped me to appreciate just how much parental values differ.  Just between you and me -- two well meaning moms who both care passionately about our children and about literature -- there is considerable variance -- your concerns, and the books you wish to delay for your children, seem focused more around sexual issues; mine more around violence in a historical context.  My sense from the banned book list discussions this week is that you and I both are OK with books that include fantasy/magic (like Narnia, Harry Potter, LOTR), or those that critique / rock the social and political orders (like Mockingbird, Huck Finn, 1984, Ayn Rand).  But, other well meaning parents exist who are just as troubled by magic, or social critique, as you and I are by our respective hot buttons.  If we removed everything that troubled anyone, we'd be left solely with Captain Underpants.   :huh: Oh, right, there are also parents troubled by language... :laugh:

 

So although I do agree with you that middle school libraries *are* different than public libraries, I guess I end up in a slightly different place, which is, I am willing to cede those judgments to middle school librarians, who actually interact with the kids in their schools, and whose job it is to actually read the books and figure out how to place the books on the shelves...

 

 

... but... can we still be friends?  Because I really love Benedict Society; and I'm quite likely to have lots of extra honey in a week that I'm eager to share... 

[Angel]

Slaughterhouse Five, by Kurt Vonnegut

• Challenged in many communities, but burned in Drake, ND (1973).
  
• Banned in Rochester, MI because the novel "contains and makes references to religious matters" and thus fell within the ban of the establishment clause. An appellate court upheld its usage in the school in Todd v Rochester Community Schools, 41 Mich. App. 320, 200 N. W 2d 90 (1972).
  
• Banned in Levittown, NY (1975), North Jackson, OH (1979), and Lakeland, FL (1982) because of the "book's explicit sexual scenes, violence, and obscene language."
  
• Barred from purchase at the Washington Park High School in Racine, WI (1984) by the district administrative assistant for instructional services.
  
• Challenged at the Owensboro, KY High School library (1985) because of "foul language, a section depicting a picture of an act of bestiality, a reference to 'Magic Fingers' attached to the protagonist's bed to help him sleep, and the sentence: 'The gun made a ripping sound like the opening of the fly of God Almighty."' 
  
• Restricted to students who have parental permission at the four Racine, WI Unified District high school libraries (1986) because of "language used in the book, depictions of torture, ethnic slurs, and negative portrayals of women."
  
• Challenged at the LaRue County, KY High School library (1987) because "the book contains foul language and promotes deviant sexual behavior.â€
  
• Banned from the Fitzgerald, GA schools (1987) because it was filled with profanity and full of explicit sexual references:' Challenged in the Baton Rouge, LA public high school libraries (1988) because the book is "vulgar and offensive:'
  
• Challenged in the Monroe, MI public schools (1989) as required reading in a modem novel course for high school juniors and seniors because of the book's language and the way women are portrayed. 
  
• Retained on the Round Rock, TX Independent High School reading list (1996) after a challenge that the book was too violent.
  
• Challenged as an eleventh grade summer reading option in Prince William County, VA (1998) because the book "was rife with profanity and explicit sex:"
  
•  Removed as required reading for sophomores at the Coventry, RI High School (2000) after a parent complained that it contains vulgar language, violent imagery, and sexual content.
  
•  Retained on the Northwest Suburban High School District 214 reading list in Arlington Heights, IL (2006), along with eight other challenged titles.  A board member, elected amid promises to bring her Christian beliefs into all board decision-making, raised the controversy based on excerpts from  the books she'd found on the internet.  
  
• Challenged in the Howell, MI High School (2007) because of the book's strong sexual content.  In response to a request from the president of the Livingston Organization for Values in Education, or LOVE, the county's top law enforcement official reviewed the books to see whether laws against distribution of sexually explicit materials to minors had been broken. "After reading the books in question, it is clear that the explicit passages illustrated a larger literary, artistic or political message and were not included solely to appeal to the prurient interests of minors," the county prosecutor wrote.  "Whether these materials are appropriate for minors is a decision to be made by the school board, but I find that they are not in violation of criminal laws."
  

To Kill a Mockingbird, by Harper Lee

• Challenged in Eden Valley, MN (1977) and temporarily banned due to words "damn" and "whore lady" used in the novel.
  
• Challenged in the Vernon Verona Sherill, NY School District (1980)  as a "filthy, trashy novel."
  
• Challenged at the Warren, IN Township schools (1981) because  the book does "psychological damage to the positive integration process" and "represents  institutionalized racism under the guise of good literature." After unsuccessfully trying to ban Lee's novel, three black parents resigned from the township human relations advisory  council.
  
• Challenged in the Waukegan, IL School District (1984) because the novel uses the  word "nigger."
  
• Challenged in the Kansas City, MO junior high schools (1985). Challenged at  the Park Hill, MO Junior High School (1985) because the novel "contains profanity and  racial slurs." Retained on a supplemental eighth grade reading list in the Casa Grande, AZ  Elementary School District (1985), despite the protests by black parents and the National  Association for the Advancement of Colored People who charged the book was unfit for junior high use.
  
• Challenged at the Santa Cruz, CA Schools (1995) because of its racial themes.  Removed from the Southwood High School Library in Caddo Parish, LA (1995) because the book's language and content were objectionable.
  
• Challenged at the Moss Point, MS School District (1996) because the novel contains a racial epithet. Banned from the Lindale, TX advanced placement English reading list (1996) because the book "conflicted with the values of the community."
  
• Challenged by a Glynn County, GA (2001) School Board member because of profanity. The novel was retained. Returned to the freshman reading list at Muskogee, OK High School (2001) despite complaints over the years from black students and parents about racial slurs in the text.
  
• Challenged in the Normal, IL Community High School's sophomore literature class (2003) as being degrading to African Americans.
  
• Challenged at the Stanford Middle School in Durham, NC (2004) because the 1961 Pulitzer Prize-winning novel uses the word "nigger."  
  
• Challenged at the Brentwood, TN Middle School (2006) because the book contains “profanity†and “contains adult themes such as sexual intercourse, rape, and incest.† The complainants also contend that the book’s use of racial slurs promotes â€œracial hatred, racial division, racial separation, and promotes white supremacy.† 
  
• Retained in the English curriculum by the Cherry Hill, NJ Board of Education (2007).  A resident had objected to the novel’s depiction of how blacks are treated by members of a racist white community in an Alabama town during the Depression.  The resident feared the book would upset black children reading it.  
  
• Removed (2009) from the St. Edmund Campion Secondary School classrooms in Brampton Ontario, Canada because a parent objected to language used in the novel, including the word “nigger."
  

Oops! I forgot to quote you from your post!  You asked why I would read To Kill a Mockingbird but refuse to read Slaughterhouse Five and how I could make an educated opinion if I hadn't read the book.  You are so right!  I cannot make an educated opinion if I haven't read the book.  I found this out, to my shame, over Harry Potter, now one of our most beloved book series!  However, the bolded parts of each section to me are worlds apart.  Adult themes such as sexual intercourse, rape, and incest are totally different than explicit sex.  Obscene language is much different than damn.  

 

As a personal reader, I don't knowingly read books with a ton of profanity, especially of the big four letter variety.  I also don't knowingly read books with explicit sex scenes.  That's why you find me asking on the boards if a book is PG-13 or R  ;)   I used to read all of that, and certainly don't care if anyone else chooses to, but for me personally, that is not what I want in my head. That's just me!  

 

Does Slaughterhouse Five truly have explicit sex scenes?  Does it use the big four letter word?  If it does, then I won't read it, not because someone else said not to  and not because I don't want to make an educated decision, but because that is not a healthy mental diet for me.  Does that make sense?  

 

Personally to me, the Bible is not a myth, fable, or fairy tale.  It does have very difficult adult themes.  You are very right.  However, they, too, are not described in explicit detail.  At least not in my version :001_smile: 

 

 

 

[Guest]

 

As a personal reader, I don't knowingly read books with a ton of profanity, especially of the big four letter variety.  I also don't knowingly read books with explicit sex scenes.  That's why you find me asking on the boards if a book is PG-13 or R  ;)   I used to read all of that, and certainly don't care if anyone else chooses to, but for me personally, that is not what I want in my head. That's just me!  

 

 

I really, really wish there was a rating system for books. Not a good vs. bad rating, but just something so that people would know the content in them and be left to their own choice.

[mommymilkies]

I really, really wish there was a rating system for books. Not a good vs. bad rating, but just something so that people would know the content in them and be left to their own choice.

Commonsense Media has some.  Since it's user submitted, sometimes it's over-exuberant and some (like Ender's Game) I found to be too lax. 

 

I admit I'm a bit of a prude about books with my kids.  Violence doesn't bother me to some degree, but emotional trauma or sexual things I prefer to leave out.  My oldest (13.5) would love Mistborn, but I'm not ready for the talk of rape and such in there. I consider myself really liberal, but my upbringing was too free with sexual stuff, IMO, so I'm a bit prudish about exposure with my kids. 

[Stacia]

Does Slaughterhouse Five truly have explicit sex scenes?  Does it use the big four letter word?  If it does, then I won't read it, not because someone else said not to  and not because I don't want to make an educated decision, but because that is not a healthy mental diet for me.  Does that make sense?  

 

Imo, no (re: explicit sex scenes). Sex scenes? Yes, but imo, not described in explicit detail. Deviant behavior? During the war, there is one soldier who has a 'dirty' photo (a woman & a horse) that he shows the other soldiers. (If that statement was not too explicit, then you should be fine reading the book, imo.) Or maybe the book challenger was talking about the part of the story w/ aliens on an alien planet, where a male & female human have been captured & are put on display/observed as in a zoo (including alien tour guides who lead groups through the zoo & give talks on the behavior of the zoo inhabitants). In this respect, the humans are presented just as you would see animals in a zoo -- in a natural state, doing regular, everyday things, including 'mating' (though mating is a small part of the sections of the book dealing with humans being on the alien planet). The 'f' word is used a couple of times, along w/ other, 'milder' obscenities. But, taken as part of the larger whole, these are very small things & minor scenes within the entire book.

 

I'm almost done w/ reading it & will go back & scan through again. To me, it's not an offensive book & is actually quite tame compared to the accusations leveled against it. It definitely will make you think & the storytelling style is unique & non-linear. It is not a straight-out war narrative, yet will make you shudder at the horrors that humans inflict on each other during wartime. In addition to the war parts, it looks at the character's whole life, including how he copes (or doesn't) after the war is over.

 

Will post again after I've finished & re-read some of the (potentially offensive) sections to let you know....

 

Personally to me, the Bible is not a myth, fable, or fairy tale.  It does have very difficult adult themes.  You are very right.  However, they, too, are not described in explicit detail.  At least not in my version :001_smile:

 

I know. I was really answering that question based on my original statement which also included 'religious texts' as part of my sentence. ("Fwiw, many fairy tales, fables, myths, & religious texts include violence & sex....)

 

 

 

[JennW in SoCal]

I was so thankful when Common Sense Media first started up because the movie reviews had basic information about specific types of content, whether swear words or nudity or graphic violence or attitudes towards authority.  Every family has different parameters of what is and isn't ok and within families different kids have different triggers.  It was a relief to be able to find out about specifics, to be able to make more informed choices.  Didn't know they now have similar reviews for books.

 

This topic touches upon my reaction to some of the content in the Lord Peter mystery I just finished, Unnatural Death.  Ooooh boy it has some very politically incorrect, offensive language in it.  I picked it up as a kindle daily deal a month or so ago as I knew it was one of the few Lord Peter books I hadn't read, but I started to wonder if it had been quietly removed from my library shelves due to the language.  I see that there are a couple of copies of it elsewhere in the large metropolitan library system, tho, so it hasn't been banned, censored or purged.  The n-word in Huck Finn didn't shock me the way it did in this book. That and a couple of other racial slurs took me right out of the story, although to Dorothy Sayers' credit, the guilty party's use of race as a red herring to casually distract the police and public makes the book still relevant and current.   But it isn't her best, not because of the politically incorrect phrases, but because it isn't as tightly told a story.  I wouldn't recommend the book to introduce someone to the Lord Peter mysteries -- I'd recommend Nine Tailors, Strong Poison or Gaudy Night or Murder Must Advertise or Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club.  

 

For years and years the comic book industry had its own Comic Code Authority that imposed its own guidelines as to what content and images were acceptable.  The industry did it to avoid being censored by the government, but it was never mandatory.  Here is a nice summary about it on Wikipedia.  I can remember a book that my husband was working on back in the 80s had to have a few minor changes that the editors insisted on.  No exit wounds could be shown -- you could show a wound inflicted by a gun, but NOT the exit wound.  Why that makes it a less violent image we never did quite figure out.  Certain phrases would be ok, but not others. I suppose it is similar to how video games are rated these days, "E" or "M" or whatever.  Some people cry censorship over it, but as a parent it is nice to have some quick guidelines to know what is appropriate for your family.  

[Angel]

 

Does this make sense at all. I've been having a heated debate over the advisability of a hamster in a high school classroom so my brain is a bit fuzzy.

 

Are we banning hamsters?!  :lol:   If so, I should say that IMHO hamsters are obscene, explicit little animals, prone to biting hard enough to draw blood and consuming their young.   :lol:   I would suggest gerbils, they are PG not R.   :lol:   Oh, wait!  Maybe they should be banned, too, they procreate immediately after giving birth (you don't want to know how I know this).  That would be mature sexual themes. :001_tt2:

[aggieamy]

Finished - The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman.  Listened to this as an audio book.  My inner 10 year old loved this and wished that she could have grown up in a graveyard and learned to haunt and fade and have adventures.  I even loved the music between the chapters.  

 

 

As a personal reader, I don't knowingly read books with a ton of profanity, especially of the big four letter variety.  I also don't knowingly read books with explicit sex scenes.  That's why you find me asking on the boards if a book is PG-13 or R  ;)   I used to read all of that, and certainly don't care if anyone else chooses to, but for me personally, that is not what I want in my head. That's just me!  

 

 

 

Look at me jumping in the conversation late again.   I think it's strange what bothers us in books and I tend to be protective (by some standards over-protective) of what my kid reads because I know that it's hard to get images out of your head once they are in there.  I have that problem too and I can usually breeze by explicit sex scenes but I'd rather avoid them completely.  Profanity doesn't bother me in books BUT in real life it does.  The worst to me are the violent scenes.  There's something about me that just can't obsessing and stressing over them.  

[hornblower]

I finished a thriller which I won't name because it would violate my personal rule of not doing a bad review of a book by a still living author.

Suffice it to say that I don't know what the advance readers who blurbed it so enthusiastically were reading - it wasn't the book that got published in that dust jacket.

I persevered to the end mostly as an exercise for recognizing where the author had gone wrong. His mistakes are very similar to the ones I make in my writing so it was interesting to note what wasn't working & why.
I wouldn't be surprised though if he doesn't earn out his advance, though & I'm sort of feeling sad for him because of that. His editors should have done a better job of flagging fixable issues.


For banned books week - started Cory Doctorow's Homeland because I've already read Little Brother :)

[Stacia]

The worst to me are the violent scenes.

 

I think that is the case for me too. Excessive or explicit violence really bothers me. (Therefore, the book that is hard for me to abide -- and that I quit reading very early on -- is American Psycho by Bret Easton Ellis. <shudder> Perhaps there is something redeeming to be had from the story, including for me, but I will never know because I couldn't make it very far in & feel quite sure I will never have the stomach to try it again.)

 

[Angel]

And, Angel, of course we can still be friends. :seeya:  :grouphug:  After all, we are both exercising our right to free speech as we discuss this issue. (I still do challenge you to read Slaughterhouse-Five  ;)  :D  & I'm guessing/hoping you will then see that some of the challenges against it seem out-of-place, to put it mildly.)

 

 

 

I'm glad we're still friends!  I truly hate to think on controversial topics!  Dh is always trying to yank my head out of the sand and get me to think about it and speak up.  But I just can't do it comfortably.  I get emotional, take it personal, don't understand how others can think certain ways, just these threads (and we are not even speaking face to face) make me sick to my stomach with anxiousness because there is a difference of opinion.  :blushing:  I know, silly, but true.  

 

 

When I got to be a parent, my perspective changed. Suddenly I was concerned for my own children's psychological and spiritual well being. I was careful about what I assigned my children to read and I reread everything myself to see  what I wanted to hand them and what I wanted to avoid. I had become very sensitive about subject matter.

 

 

I am very careful of what I hand my children (well child, now, Skye is almost 20).  I do not read everything they read.  My own reading list is way too long to even attempt to do that!  But I do tell them when they may not read something because of content.  We talk about it and discuss why.  Even now, at almost 20, Skye will sometimes ask about a book.  I am always honest about it, tell her my opinion, and then end with the fact that she is an adult now and needs to make her own decision.  Those decisions are what leads me to read Jurassic Park with white-out in my hand :rolleyes: because she has chosen not to have that language in her mental diet.  At the same time, I certainly do not handle Aly this way, and will not until she is older.  

 

 

My feelings are I would rather my child read about difficult things in books and discuss them with adults, be it me, a teacher, or other adult than that they go out in the world having only heard about unicorns and rainbows. Now the books do need to be at a level that is appropriate, and as has been said upthread that varies from child to child.

 

For me, as a high school teacher, I think high school is a good place to take off the restrictions on reading material for all, before that I think one should be more careful so that the material is presented in an age apropriate way.

 

 

Real life isn't unicorns and rainbows, you are right.  And our real life has shown that as the girls have grown.  I don't feel the need to purposely expose them to certain situations, however, just to broaden their worldly scope.   I have watched many parents take off the restrictions during the high school years.  It isn't always a positive experience.  I believe they still need guidance and boundries in the teenage years, just as much in previous years.  Not necessarily exposure to hard things just for the sake of exposure.  

 

But I feel the need to be honest here (as I'm an extremely honest person IRL), I really LOVE unicorns and rainbows and happy endings and not having to think about hard things and everyone lives happily ever after!  (Ostrich, remember!)  It gives me comfort.  As an adult, I can read all of that (Flufferton Abbey) because I read for pleasure.  There are certain things that I can't bear to think about or certain stories (most of Sonlight's catalog) that are so depressing that I admit to not being able to find the value in them because I am so emotionally overwhelmed by them that the intellectual side cannot even emerge.  

 

Stacia, my dh thanks you for making me participate and actually express opinions and not run away from the conversation.  However, I've spent enough time out of my comfort zone  ;)  I'm going to go think on unicorns and rainbows and the incredible Mr. Darcy!  I can't say it's been fun, but it's been good for me  :001_rolleyes:

 

I am heading back to my ostrich hole now  :seeya:

[Angel]

Finished - The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman.  Listened to this as an audio book.  My inner 10 year old loved this and wished that she could have grown up in a graveyard and learned to haunt and fade and have adventures.  I even loved the music between the chapters.  

 

 

Look at me jumping in the conversation late again.   I think it's strange what bothers us in books and I tend to be protective (by some standards over-protective) of what my kid reads because I know that it's hard to get images out of your head once they are in there.  I have that problem too and I can usually breeze by explicit sex scenes but I'd rather avoid them completely.  Profanity doesn't bother me in books BUT in real life it does.  The worst to me are the violent scenes.  There's something about me that just can't obsessing and stressing over them.  

I think that is the case for me too. Excessive or explicit violence really bothers me. (Therefore, the book that is hard for me to abide -- and that I quit reading very early on -- is American Psycho by Bret Easton Ellis. <shudder> Perhaps there is something redeeming to be had from the story, including for me, but I will never know because I couldn't make it very far in & feel quite sure I will never have the stomach to try it again.)

 

 

I guess I don't read much violence unless it is battle scenes in a fantasy book.  I can handle that.  Scary violence or horror would truly bother me, I'm sure.  I'm a fraidy cat!  I guess it would depend on the violence in a murder book.  I never get into any of those, though, usually because of the language.  

[hornblower]

I find this entire conversation so fascinating.

I don't & never did censor my kids' reading (I did censor tv & film though)  They read all sorts of things.

But I'm amazed at how depressing the book lists for high school are.  It's like we're trying to make sure kids know life is miserable, and nasty, and horrid, and people endure horrific things & it's all so ghastly.  Last summer I was looking through a book list for gr 10-12 here & it was all  WW1, WW2, hero's dog dies, boy becomes friend with old man - who dies, friend has cancer - & dies, friend is raped, etc etc etc.  It appears the only topics allowed for 'serious reading' are:  dystopian, war, depression, violence...

I was going through the list with ds & he was aghast. Are we trying to drive kids into a massive depression?

Or - cynical old me whispers - trying to drive them into apathy & to a resigned acceptance of whatever society chucks at them? "This is life. Suck it up & quit complaining. Look how good you have it compared to x in that horrid book you had to read for Gr. 11 English!"

dd & I read The Kite Runner a couple years ago since it's on the Gr. 12 syllabus here & she was thinking of challenging an exam (before she discovered she didn't need to). What an utter drag.



 

[Angel]

I loved that one, and then I read The Extraordinary Education of Nicholas Benedict, which is a prequel. Loved that one, too. I want to get them all and read them with my kids. Fun books!

 

 

Aly has read them all, and has the puzzle book!  I would like to read more of them, but with school starting and our co-op book club, well, I think it will be awhile before I get there.  

 

Ah, Angel my dear ostrich friend-

 

I wrote out a long response last night to your thoughts on school libraries generally and Mists of Avalon specifically (which are complicated but, just for the record, I feel compelled to say right at the outset here that whatever my thoughts about libraries and/or Morgan Le Fay, I am definitely not.in.favor of brother-sister incest itself, lol...)

 

 

... but... can we still be friends?  Because I really love Benedict Society; and I'm quite likely to have lots of extra honey in a week that I'm eager to share... 

 

Definitely to the bolded  :grouphug:  The whole honey conversation was fascinating!  I didn't realize there were so many types!  I will think on what you've said, but maybe (like Scarlet O'Hara) tomorrow.  I can't think about any more.  And I think that my world view (hate that phrase, truly, but it fits best here unfortunately) really plays a big part in how I think about all of this.  

 

I appreciate every one being gentle and kind.  I think this may be the most I've ever posted in a 24 hour period.  

[Jane in NC]

Another reader who is more disturbed by violent than sexual content.

 

When I was in 8th grade, the novel Love Story was making the rounds. It was not, of course, in the school library but someone had gotten their hands on a copy that went from friend to friend. One of the dear nuns saw it in my stack of books and asksd me if my mother knew that I was reading it. In typical high and mighty Jane fashion, I told her that my mother did not care what I read, just so I read. Mom had never said this, but I decided it must be her philosophy because it seemed reasonable.

 

That said, one of the most disturbing books that I have ever read was assigned by the same nun: Lord of the Flies. I cannot think of it without shuddering.

 

When my son was about the age I was in the aforementioned, one of his friends belonged to a co- op that read The daVinci Code after parents struck certain passages from the book with a Sharpie. This same kid was allowed to play first person shooter video games which are banned in my home period. I do not believe in pretend killing for sport. That is my red line.

 

Let the libraries be, I say.

[Angel]

Imo, no (re: explicit sex scenes). Sex scenes? Yes, but imo, not described in explicit detail. Deviant behavior? During the war, there is one soldier who has a 'dirty' photo (a woman & a horse) that he shows the other soldiers. (If that statement was not too explicit, then you should be fine reading the book, imo.) Or maybe the book challenger was talking about the part of the story w/ aliens on an alien planet, where a male & female human have been captured & are put on display/observed as in a zoo (including alien tour guides who lead groups through the zoo & give talks on the behavior of the zoo inhabitants). In this respect, the humans are presented just as you would see animals in a zoo -- in a natural state, doing regular, everyday things, including 'mating' (though mating is a small part of the sections of the book dealing with humans being on the alien planet). The 'f' word is used a couple of times, along w/ other, 'milder' obscenities. But, taken as part of the larger whole, these are very small things & minor scenes within the entire book.

 

I'm almost done w/ reading it & will go back & scan through again. To me, it's not an offensive book & is actually quite tame compared to the accusations leveled against it. It definitely will make you think & the storytelling style is unique & non-linear. It is not a straight-out war narrative, yet will make you shudder at the horrors that humans inflict on each other during wartime. In addition to the war parts, it looks at the character's whole life, including how he copes (or doesn't) after the war is over.

 

Will post again after I've finished & re-read some of the (potentially offensive) sections to let you know....

 

 

Well, maybe then...   if your sure about the explicit detail.  I will consider it.  The bolded makes me think of The Planet of the Apes  :laugh:  

[Stacia]

But I'm amazed at how depressing the book lists for high school are.  It's like we're trying to make sure kids know life is miserable, and nasty, and horrid, and people endure horrific things & it's all so ghastly.  Last summer I was looking through a book list for gr 10-12 here & it was all  WW1, WW2, hero's dog dies, boy becomes friend with old man - who dies, friend has cancer - & dies, friend is raped, etc etc etc.  It appears the only topics allowed for 'serious reading' are:  dystopian, war, depression, violence...

 

I was going through the list with ds & he was aghast. Are we trying to drive kids into a massive depression?

 

Yes, yes, yes. My dd (now a junior) entered public high school in 9th grade. The English reading for 9th grade was entirely a bunch of depressing books. She hated, hated, hated them all (& I can't say I blame her) & complained all year that every single book they had to read was depressing. I have to wonder how ds (who is planning to enter 9th grade next year at the same school) will handle this. I am still thinking all this over....

 

10th grade was better (Brit Lit) & overall she loved most of the book choices for it.

 

This year seems ok (AP American Lit) -- she's mostly on the fence about the books, not hate, but not love either.

[Angel]

Dh took the picture so we're good  ;)  This is Aly with Richard Paul Evans last night at the book signing.  She was so excited.  It was the first time she has ever gotten the chance to meet a favorite author.  We picked up the 4th Michael Vey book for her and her friend in Kenya.  Mr. Evans is an amazing guy!  He, like his character Michael Vey, has Tourette's Syndrome.  He spoke about meeting kids all over the world with Tourette's and other issues, and how they are finding hope that they too can be normal kids.  Some of the things kids have been saying to him brought tears to my eyes.  Since Skye has Asperger's, it was easy to relate.  Interestingly, he has received flak for making his hero a boy.  It's like one of the number one criticisms of the book!  Seriously!  :eek:  He went on to speak about it a little and said though he has four daughters, his son needs heroes to look up to in literature just as his daughters do.  It was a great experience.  He took plenty of time especially with each of the kids that were there.  And there were a lot.  Aly is upstairs reading it right now  :D

[Pam in CT]

Dh took the picture so we're good  ;)  This is Aly with Richard Paul Evans last night at the book signing.  She was so excited.  It was the first time she has ever gotten the chance to meet a favorite author.  We picked up the 4th Michael Vey book for her and her friend in Kenya.  Mr. Evans is an amazing guy!  He, like his character Michael Vey, has Tourette's Syndrome.  He spoke about meeting kids all over the world with Tourette's and other issues, and how they are finding hope that they too can be normal kids.  Some of the things kids have been saying to him brought tears to my eyes.  Since Skye has Asperger's, it was easy to relate.  Interestingly, he has received flak for making his hero a boy.  It's like one of the number one criticisms of the book!  Seriously!  :eek:  He went on to speak about it a little and said though he has four daughters, his son needs heroes to look up to in literature just as his daughters do.  It was a great experience.  He took plenty of time especially with each of the kids that were there.  And there were a lot.  Aly is upstairs reading it right now  :D

 

Aww, the picture isn't coming through for me!   :sad:

 

How cool that she was able to meet him... and how very nice that he's a good guy / good speaker / easy to relate to.  Not all good authors are so great at speaking...

[TeacherZee]

Are we banning hamsters?! :lol: If so, I should say that IMHO hamsters are obscene, explicit little animals, prone to biting hard enough to draw blood and consuming their young. :lol: I would suggest gerbils, they are PG not R. :lol: Oh, wait! Maybe they should be banned, too, they procreate immediately after giving birth (you don't want to know how I know this). That would be mature sexual themes. :001_tt2:

 

I don't think we are banning hamsters out right. Just in my classroom. The teens definitely don't need MORE distractions :)

 

 

 

 

Real life isn't unicorns and rainbows, you are right. And our real life has shown that as the girls have grown. I don't feel the need to purposely expose them to certain situations, however, just to broaden their worldly scope. I have watched many parents take off the restrictions during the high school years. It isn't always a positive experience. I believe they still need guidance and boundries in the teenage years, just as much in previous years. Not necessarily exposure to hard things just for the sake of exposure.

 

But I feel the need to be honest here (as I'm an extremely honest person IRL), I really LOVE unicorns and rainbows and happy endings and not having to think about hard things and everyone lives happily ever after! (Ostrich, remember!) It gives me comfort. As an adult, I can read all of that (Flufferton Abbey) because I read for pleasure. There are certain things that I can't bear to think about or certain stories (most of Sonlight's catalog) that are so depressing that I admit to not being able to find the value in them because I am so emotionally overwhelmed by them that the intellectual side cannot even emerge.

 

Stacia, my dh thanks you for making me participate and actually express opinions and not run away from the conversation. However, I've spent enough time out of my comfort zone ;) I'm going to go think on unicorns and rainbows and the incredible Mr. Darcy! I can't say it's been fun, but it's been good for me :001_rolleyes:

 

I am heading back to my ostrich hole now :seeya:

I love rainbows and unicorns too :) (although I like mine with hamster sex apparently ;) )can't wait for the next Fools Gold book but I also don't think all books we read need to be fluffy nor do all need to be meaty or true to life. A healthy balance with time to digest. There have been times when I have decided NOT to introduce certain books to a class because I have known that it has the potential of stirring up things for one student. That said, most of my students come from stable middle class backgrounds many of them NEED to be shown the other side of life. But again mileage may vary. And I definitely think difficult books should be discussed

[Angel]

And to finish off my flurry of posting ...  I finished book #42 last night, The Wizard of Oz.  I really enjoyed it.  I thought it was much better than the movie.  There were clever little turns and twists that the movie just didn't even explore, which was a shame. All those fantastic characters and monsters!   Aly and I haven't had a chance to sit down and really discuss it yet, but we already were looking at the similarities and differences between it and Once Upon a Time!  Aly hasn't seen the movie yet, so no comparisons there.  I, personally, loved the Flying Monkeys who were not mean at all!  That's a pretty short review but my mental energy is pretty much kaput.  

 

It was one of the other girls' turn to pick a book in co-op, and she chose A Christmas Carol.  Interesting pick, and one I've read before.  It's the only Dickens I like (so far...if I ever make it through one maybe I could change my mind).  It's short, though, so it won't take me too long.  I picked up a little book in the children's section at Half-Price Books called Scones & Sensibility which I started last night.  And it looks as though I will try to get Slaughterhouse Five out of the library.  Aly and I will delve into Rumpelstiltskin next in our fairy tale study, and I have a ton of books waiting in that pile to explore!

 

ETA:  Just to prove Stacia and numerous others right, a close IRL friend thought that there were elements in The Wizard of Oz that were not kid friendly for the 9yo in our reading group, which is why we didn't read it in co-op.  And I'm left scratching my head trying to figure out what she possibly means.  

[JennW in SoCal]

 

ETA:  Just to prove Stacia and numerous others right, a close IRL friend thought that there were elements in The Wizard of Oz that were not kid friendly for the 9yo in our reading group, which is why we didn't read it in co-op.  And I'm left scratching my head trying to figure out what she possibly means.  

 

Fascinating.  My 2nd grade teacher was a wise woman who read aloud to us everyday when we came in from lunchtime recess.  Over the course of the year she read through all the books in the Wizard of Oz series.  They seemed the perfect books for a bunch of 7yos, although my own kids weren't impressed at all and I maybe only read the first 2 aloud!

 

I agree about high school reading lists.  I had to get really creative for literature selections for my sensitive Aspie.  

[Stacia]

And to finish off my flurry of posting ...  I finished book #42 last night, The Wizard of Oz.  I really enjoyed it.  I thought it was much better than the movie.  There were clever little turns and twists that the movie just didn't even explore, which was a shame. All those fantastic characters and monsters!   Aly and I haven't had a chance to sit down and really discuss it yet, but we already were looking at the similarities and differences between it and Once Upon a Time!  Aly hasn't seen the movie yet, so no comparisons there.  I, personally, loved the Flying Monkeys who were not mean at all!  That's a pretty short review but my mental energy is pretty much kaput.  

 

It was one of the other girls' turn to pick a book in co-op, and she chose A Christmas Carol.  Interesting pick, and one I've read before.  It's the only Dickens I like (so far...if I ever make it through one maybe I could change my mind).  It's short, though, so it won't take me too long.  I picked up a little book in the children's section at Half-Price Books called Scones & Sensibility which I started last night.  And it looks as though I will try to get Slaughterhouse Five out of the library.  Aly and I will delve into Rumpelstiltskin next in our fairy tale study, and I have a ton of books waiting in that pile to explore!

 

ETA:  Just to prove Stacia and numerous others right, a close IRL friend thought that there were elements in The Wizard of Oz that were not kid friendly for the 9yo in our reading group, which is why we didn't read it in co-op.  And I'm left scratching my head trying to figure out what she possibly means.  

 

I've only ever read the first Wizard of Oz book (have a lovely, illustrated edition from when I was a kid). But, I don't really ever remember liking it (though I remember seeing the movie much more than experiencing the book when I was young). I read the book again as an adult when my kids were little & I didn't like it. Something about it is just 'off' enough to leave me with a sense of unease, I guess? I can't put my finger on it right now (& don't really remember enough about the book now to fairly say), but I'd say unease is what I think when I think of The Wizard of Oz (both the book and the movie). I'm definitely NO fan of the movie, though I dutifully watched it every year on tv when I was a kid. (It seemed like some big tv 'event', I guess, that everyone did, kwim?) Neither of my kids liked the book or the movie either. Obviously, we've never ventured past the first book. Otoh, a friend of dd's loved the book & read all the ones in the series many times when she was younger -- just couldn't get enough of it.

 

 

And it looks as though I will try to get Slaughterhouse Five out of the library.

 

:w00t:  and :hurray:  for at least being willing to pick it up (even if you don't end up reading it).

 

:grouphug:

 

(Hoping to post a more final report/overview of the book later tonight.)

[Stacia]

When I was in 8th grade, the novel Love Story was making the rounds. It was not, of course, in the school library but someone had gotten their hands on a copy that went from friend to friend. One of the dear nuns saw it in my stack of books and asksd me if my mother knew that I was reading it. In typical high and mighty Jane fashion, I told her that my mother did not care what I read, just so I read. Mom had never said this, but I decided it must be her philosophy because it seemed reasonable.

 

Flashback to the past! I remember being at a slumber party with my friends in middle school & we watched the movie on tv. I cried & cried.

 

And "typical high and mighty Jane fashion"... :lol:

 

 

That said, one of the most disturbing books that I have ever read was assigned by the same nun: Lord of the Flies. I cannot think of it without shuddering.

 

I have never had to read that one (nor do I plan to ever read it).

 

Unfortunately, it was one of the books dd had to read in 9th grade.

 

When my son was about the age I was in the aforementioned, one of his friends belonged to a co- op that read The daVinci Code after parents struck certain passages from the book with a Sharpie.

 

What were they marking out?

[Kareni]

Last night I finished  Back to You (A Coming Home Novel) by Jessica Scott which I enjoyed. 

 

"He's in for the fight of his life . . .

Army captain Trent Davila loved his wife, Laura, and their two beautiful children. But when he almost lost his life in combat, something inside him died. He couldn't explain the emptiness he felt or bridge the growing distance between him and his family-so he deployed again. And again. And again...until his marriage reached its breaking point. Now, with everything on the line, Trent has one last chance to prove to his wife that he can be the man she needs ...if she'll have him

. . . to win back his only love.

Laura is blindsided when Trent returns home. Time and again, he chose his men over his family, and she's just beginning to put the pieces of her shattered heart back together. But when Trent faces a court martial on false charges, only Laura can save him. What begins as an act of kindness to protect his career inflames a desire she thought long buried-and a love that won't be denied. But can she trust that this time he's back to stay?"

 

From the author bio, I see that Jessica Scott is an army officer who is married to a military NCO (I had to look that term up to understand its precise meaning); consequently, the story line seems authentic to this non-military reader.  This book had significantly more depth than many other romances I've read.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Pam in CT]

Argh, Stacia, I forgot how to post images again...

 

So this is an experiment:

 

 

 

 

ETA: .... that, uh, evidently was unsuccessful.

 

One more try, and then I'll have to sign off for a while...

 

 

 

 

 

Shanah tovah, ladies!! Have a sweet new year!

[mumto2]

I've only ever read the first Wizard of Oz book (have a lovely, illustrated edition from when I was a kid). But, I don't really ever remember liking it (though I remember seeing the movie much more than experiencing the book when I was young). I read the book again as an adult when my kids were little & I didn't like it. Something about it is just 'off' enough to leave me with a sense of unease, I guess? I can't put my finger on it right now (& don't really remember enough about the book now to fairly say), but I'd say unease is what I think when I think of The Wizard of Oz (both the book and the movie). I'm definitely NO fan of the movie, though I dutifully watched it every year on tv when I was a kid. (It seemed like some big tv 'event', I guess, that everyone did, kwim?) Neither of my kids liked the book or the movie either. Obviously, we've never ventured past the first book. Otoh, a friend of dd's loved the book & read all the ones in the series many times when she was younger -- just couldn't get enough of it.

 

 

I am not a huge fan of the Wizard of Oz movie but loved reading the series to the dc's. I read all 14 originals twice. Once to dd then again to ds and dd. We liked them. ;) I even made Patchwork dolls in honour of Scraps our favourite character, she doesn't appear until book six. Somewhere I have a great article that is on a similar tangent to this one http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7933175.stm. Maybe all the Wizard of Oz dislike comes from it being political. ;)

 

I hate The Lord of the Flies. Will never make my kids read it though I would let them after a huge warning lecture.

[Stacia]

Happy New Year, Pam & Eliana!  :grouphug:  (Are there any other BaW friends I am forgetting to mention for the New Year?)

 

Love the photo, Pam. What a lovely way to welcome in the new year.

[Mom-ninja.]

You can keep your own children from reading any book you want, but you cross a line if you try and prevent one of my children (or me) from reading the book. I tend to keep my opinions to myself regarding parenting topics with the exception of when rights and freedoms are violated. No one, and I mean no one, will tell me what I or my children can or cannot read. Not that I feel strongly about it or anything.

 

My parents never censored anything when I was a kid. I wish they had censored movies. Movies have a way of getting into your brain in a way that books do not. At least for me. I can control, to some extent, where my thoughts and imagination goes with a book. A movie is different as the visual and auditory input is forced into your head, and the sensory imagery is often way beyond what I would have imagined. I am still scarred by certain movies. Yes, I have read things I wish I hadn't but that doesn't have me wishing for brain bleach the way movies do. There are a few movies that make me feel like I have to vomit when I think of them. 

 

As for reading books with some disturbing topics....V.C. Andrews anyone? I devoured those books. I'm happy to report that the books in no way made me look to my brother as a potential lover. In fact, I remained firm in my stance that my brother was an annoying meanie. 

 

Come to think of it my mom did "ban" the books she read (and still reads), and they were all over the house. She reads the bodice ripping, quivering thighs romance type books. Of course, I sneaked away into my room with those books. Read them under my blanket with a flashlight at night. Learned a lot I did.  :lol:

 

Just a bit ago a children's book was banned, and I promptly bought it just to prove a point and to support the author. Good book too. 

 

Now, there are books I don't let my kids read. That is my decision and in no way do I think I should prevent other children from these books. I will say that I'm stricter about movies than books. Right now I'm pretty lucky as my kids are loving older more classic books. Eldest is working his way through Wodehouse (I mean what is better than a teen reading and loving Wodehouse?), middler is working his way through the Black Stallion series and the Menagerie series, and youngest is "reading" every book by Mo Willems.  

 

Add me to the list of people who will never assign nor read Lord of the Flies. I'm personally adding A Day No Pigs Would Die to that list as well. I had to read that in school (5th grade) and it depressed and horrified me. 

 

That said I didn't pick up any banned books at the library today. At least I don't think any are on the banned list. I have a major problem though. I'm in my pjs already and discovered that I forgot the library books in the car. Do I venture out to get the books in my pjs or just wait until tomorrow? 

 

 

[Stacia]

Definitely go out in your pjs. It's dark, right? And getting library books qualifies as an emergency run to the driveway, imo.

[Onceuponatime]

I just finished The Prisoner of Heaven. It wasn't as good a story as the other two in the series, but it was a quick read and i'm happy to finish one of the series I've been working on.

[Kareni]

Earlier I finished the book A Covent Garden Mystery (Captain Lacey Regency Mysteries Book 6) by Ashley Gardner.  I enjoyed it as I have the first five books in the series. 

 

"Captain Lacey stops to assist a young woman in the market at Covent Garden, and realizes to his astonishment that she is his daughter, Gabriella. Lacey then discovers that his estranged wife and her paramour, a French officer, have journeyed to London at the invitation of James Denis to dissolve her marriage to Captain Lacey.

Meanwhile, a Bow Street Runner and a man from the Thames River Police have asked Lacey to help them look into the disappearances of "game girls" from Covent Garden. The magistrates aren't interested in their fate, but perhaps Lacey can learn a thing or two. Lacey agrees and recruits old friends to help.

But when the goings-on in Covent Garden put his daughter in grave danger, Lacey's crusade turns personal. He will do anything, and call in any favor from anyone, in order to protect his own Gabriella."

 

I recommend starting with the first book, The Hanover Square Affair: Captain Lacey Regency Mysteries, which is free to Kindle readers.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[mommymilkies]

You can keep your own children from reading any book you want, but you cross a line if you try and prevent one of my children (or me) from reading the book. I tend to keep my opinions to myself regarding parenting topics with the exception of when rights and freedoms are violated. No one, and I mean no one, will tell me what I or my children can or cannot read. Not that I feel strongly about it or anything.

 

My parents never censored anything when I was a kid. I wish they had censored movies. Movies have a way of getting into your brain in a way that books do not. At least for me. I can control, to some extent, where my thoughts and imagination goes with a book. A movie is different as the visual and auditory input is forced into your head, and the sensory imagery is often way beyond what I would have imagined. I am still scarred by certain movies. Yes, I have read things I wish I hadn't but that doesn't have me wishing for brain bleach the way movies do. There are a few movies that make me feel like I have to vomit when I think of them. 

 

Yes!!!  I was seriously (no laughing) traumatized by the movies I watched as a kid.  Night of the Living Dead, Gremlins, and Child's Play were the big three.  I had nightmares for years and I never slept with a doll in the room with me from age 5 until this year.  And I actually had a zombie phobia because of it.  Diagnosed.  It was a recurring anxiety in my PPA after my first kid.  I am over it now, thankfully, but it's made me cautious of what my kids watch.  The kids are so used to better special effects, though, that they watch the old movies I was terrified of and they just laugh because it's obviously hilariously bad.  :glare:

 

I found out there will be a sequel to Steelheart out about next year.  I'm glad!  I really am enjoying this book.

 

I started and gave up on Things Fall Apart.  I couldn't pronounce the names and I just didn't feel it flowed well.  Throw tomatoes, I know, I know.  I'm almost done with Maniac Magee.  I didn't expect to like this book so much.  What a beautiful tear jerker!  Oh, and Speaking of zombies, I apparently am 5 comics behind in The Walking Dead.  Bah.  Now I need to find those. 

[aggieamy]

Since we're talking about Wizard of Oz I have to recommend the graphic novels recently done based on the first few books.  We all (DD, DH, myself - before DS) read these and enjoyed them.  They stay true to the original plots and the graphics are superbly done.  They were some of the first graphic novels I've ever read and really gave me an appreciation for the genre.

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Wonderful-Wizard-Graphic-Novel/dp/0785145907

 

[Mom-ninja.]

You all are reminding that I should read the Oz series to my kids. When we read the excerpts in FLL they always wanted to read the book. I kept putting it off and forgetting. Off to put them on hold. 

[Kareni]

Late last night I finished a collection of shorter works by Ashley Gardner which I enjoyed.

 

The Necklace Affair: and Other Stories (Captain Lacey Regency Mysteries)

 

While these would stand alone fairly well, I do recommend reading the series in order.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Stacia]

Finished Slaughterhouse-Five (again) last night, part of my 'banned books' reading. It still holds a warm & cherished place in my favorite books list. I adore Vonnegut's writing.

 

From wikipedia:

Slaughterhouse-Five, or The Children's Crusade: A Duty-Dance with Death (1969) is a satirical novel by Kurt Vonnegut about World War II experiences and journeys through time of a soldier named Billy Pilgrim. It is generally recognized as Vonnegut's most influential and popular work. Vonnegut's use of the firebombing of Dresden as a central event makes the novel semi-autobiographical, as he was present during the bombing.

 

Angel, I promised you a few comments about it. Looking back through, it does have profanity. (More than I remembered as that does not tend to stick in my mind.) Imo, it is not used just for the sake of using it, but fits within the story &/or the one or two characters who use it. To me, it is fine & not excessive. Ymmv. I don't think the sex parts will bother you as they are not explicit. (Again, my opinion. Fwiw, I will say that imo Outlander is much, much more graphic, as are many books out there on the market today as bodice-ripper or romance type stuff. Some YA has more stuff than this too.) There is some violence (it is a war book), but I know that you & I are similar re: extreme emotional response to animal books & don't like harsh emotional trauma stuff. (I can't handle stuff like that for the most part & I feel it more the older I get.) Even though this is a war book, I think you can handle the parts that mention some horrible things; I think you can bear it because of Vonnegut's writing style. He doesn't linger on gore or horror, it's almost as if it's mentioned in passing -- such a light touch, in a way, so you know the horror but you are not wallowing in it. (I can read this book without crying, whereas The Book Thief had me in a crying, sobbing ball, using an entire box of tissues to get through the end of the book.) Billy Pilgrim (the main character) is such a nice guy, mostly seeming slightly clueless, innocent, but watching, observing, telling what is going on around him.... Ironically, even though we've discussed the various reasons this book has been challenged or banned, I think the thing you might find most challenging is Vonnegut's writing style, lol. It is modern, non-linear writing, bouncing not just through time but also between here & the alien planet (but I know you're cool with the aliens :lol: ). Imo, this bouncing through time makes this book effective & bearable as you get a snippet of war info, then might bounce to Billy's life 15-20 years after the war, looking at some nice moment in his life at that point. So, with a huge 'ymmv may vary from mine' reminder, I'd suggest giving the book a try, maybe through chapter two. Hopefully you'll want to continue past that point, but if you don't, I think you will still be ok (no lasting harm) from having read the first two chapters. Oh, and one more side note.... I've read a few of Vonnegut's books (at least five or six, I think) & have loved most of them. However, I avoided Slaughterhouse-Five for the longest time just because of the title alone. (Ahem. Remember me & animal no-no stuff? 'Nuff said.) Yes, I know that reasoning seems silly, even though that reasoning worked just fine for me for many years. Anyway, I'm so glad I have read this (multiple times) in spite of the title (which is not my favorite but definitely has resonance, truth, & meaning for & with the story). So it goes.

 

Ok, now I have a few other books here & am pondering which to read for more of my banned books reading.... Will let you know what I decide.

 

In the meantime, I've started another book: The Debba by Avner Mandelman. I found this because I've been trying to look up books by smaller &/or indie publishing houses, just to see what's being published. This is from Other Press.

 

Winner of the 2011 Arthur Ellis Award for Best First Crime Novel

In Middle East lore the Debba is a mythical Arab hyena that can turn into a man who lures Jewish children away from their families to teach them the language of the beasts. To the Arabs he is a heroic national symbol; to the Jews he is a terrorist. To David Starkman, “The Debba†is a controversial play, written by his father the war hero, and performed only once, in Haifa in 1946, causing a massive riot. By 1977, David is living in Canada, having renounced his Israeli citizenship and withdrawn from his family, haunted by persistent nightmares about his catastrophic turn as a military assassin for Israel. Upon learning of his father’s gruesome murder, he returns to his homeland for what he hopes will be the final time. Back in Israel, David discovers that his father’s will demands he stage the play within forty-five days of his death, and though he is reluctant to comply, the authorities’ evident relief at his refusal convinces him he must persevere. With his father’s legacy on the line, David is forced to reimmerse himself in a life he thought he’d escaped for good. The heart-stopping climax shows that nothing in Israel is as it appears, and not only are the sins of the fathers revisited upon the sons, but so are their virtues—and the latter are more terrible still.
 

Disguised as a breathtaking thriller, Avner Mandelman’s novel reveals Israel’s double soul, its inherent paradoxes, and its taste for both art and violence. The riddle of the Debba—the myth, the play, and the novel—is nothing less than the tangled riddle of Israel itself.

 

 

[Robin M]

Loving the conversation this week and thanks to Stacia for leading the charge about banned books.  I'm in the 'censor for my own kid' category since everyone is different.  Books you'd normally think would be okay turn out not to be because my aspie kiddo's way of thinking.  He has the tendency to pick up on the words of the worst character and repeat what they say.  So Captain Underpants, sorry. Tucked away on the shelves in a dark corner where he can't find it anymore.  I have to look at what will create a good influence versus a bad influence.  Even Charlie Brown can become a problem and I have to spend hours explaining why Lucy is such a bully to Charlie.  Some are educational and lead to great discussions, others lead to :banghead:    He never forgets anything, has an eidetic memory, so you can imagine my fun when he comes and say 'mom, on April 4, 2011, you said this. Why?"   :w00t:      He's constantly analyzing books and movies.  Sometimes I wonder what he is trying to figure out and if he just has something set in his mind and will kept asking until he gets that answer.  He keeps me on my toes.    He loved Harry Potter and he loves Percy Jackson.  Speaking of Harry Potter, I've probably said this before, but when all the controversy started I just had to read it to see what the story was about and fell in love with the characters.  So controversies lead to good things, because it leads to discussions and people reading the books when they probably ordinarily wouldn't.  

 

I think the book banning thing just irks me.  If someone isn't happy about their kid reading a story, then don't let them. Don't make it so no one else can.  Lifestyles are so different. My parents didn't like the book list I was given in my junior year of high school so they went to my teacher and principle, told them they weren't appropriate for me and we all agreed to alternative reads.  They didn't request the books be banned, just requested alternatives. 

 

My two cents. Now I have to get back to work.  TTFN! 

[shukriyya]

For Stacia and Pam, and other lovers of David Mitchell, here's an NPR interview with Michael Krasny.

[Stacia]

For Stacia and Pam, and other lovers of David Mitchell, here's an NPR interview with Michael Krasny.

 

Oh, thanks! Looking forward to listening to this later this evening when things are quieter around here. Lol.

[Stacia]

Loving the conversation this week and thanks to Stacia for leading the charge about banned books.

 

Thanks. :)  :grouphug:

 

 

Books you'd normally think would be okay turn out not to be because my aspie kiddo's way of thinking.  He has the tendency to pick up on the words of the worst character and repeat what they say.  So Captain Underpants, sorry. Tucked away on the shelves in a dark corner where he can't find it anymore.

 

I know this is not funny, but it is funny too. :lol:  AND :grouphug:  (Even though I've never read Captain Underpants, I can imagine that I would want to hide it too in this case!)

 

[Stacia]

Shukriyya, was The Sekhmet Bed (The She-King Book 1) by L.M. Ironside one you read earlier this year? (I'm thinking I recognize the cover art....)

 

Asking because it is free for Kindle today: http://www.amazon.com/Sekhmet-Bed-She-King-Book-ebook/dp/B005EHR1EW/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1411678615&sr=1-1&keywords=the+sekhmet+bed

[shukriyya]

Shukriyya, was The Sekhmet Bed (The She-King Book 1) by L.M. Ironside one you read earlier this year? (I'm thinking I recognize the cover art....)

 

Asking because it is free for Kindle today: http://www.amazon.com/Sekhmet-Bed-She-King-Book-ebook/dp/B005EHR1EW/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1411678615&sr=1-1&keywords=the+sekhmet+bed

 

Yes, and I believe it was free when I got it, too :D. Book 1 really held my interest, book 2 was okay but not riveting enough for me to want to continue with the next two though I may revisit them later.

[Shawneinfl]

I find this entire conversation so fascinating.

 

I don't & never did censor my kids' reading (I did censor tv & film though)  They read all sorts of things.

 

But I'm amazed at how depressing the book lists for high school are.  It's like we're trying to make sure kids know life is miserable, and nasty, and horrid, and people endure horrific things & it's all so ghastly.  Last summer I was looking through a book list for gr 10-12 here & it was all  WW1, WW2, hero's dog dies, boy becomes friend with old man - who dies, friend has cancer - & dies, friend is raped, etc etc etc.  It appears the only topics allowed for 'serious reading' are:  dystopian, war, depression, violence...

 

I was going through the list with ds & he was aghast. Are we trying to drive kids into a massive depression?

 

Or - cynical old me whispers - trying to drive them into apathy & to a resigned acceptance of whatever society chucks at them? "This is life. Suck it up & quit complaining. Look how good you have it compared to x in that horrid book you had to read for Gr. 11 English!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have felt this way about the assigned reading lists for a long time. It got even worse for my dd as a college English major. It seems every book assigned was about suicide or really sick serial killings. I thought the same thing about driving kids to depression. Where is the balance? On the other hand, my 8th grader and I have read Little Britches, Where the Red Fern Grows, The Phantom Tollbooth, and The Hiding Place so far this year. They have deep themes but a sense of hope emerges.

 

[Guest]

I finished The Good Earth by Pearl Buck last night. Um, can we say...depressing?!? Geez! I enjoyed Snow Flower and the Secret Fan much more earlier this year, even though the time period is a little different. For some reason I thought The Good Earth was on the list in The Well Educated Mind, but after I finished it and went to look it up, I didn't see it in there.

 

I started J.K. Rowling's The Casual Vacancy last night and we will see how far I get. I am not big on language in books and in the first 30 pages, I'm already getting more than I'd like.

[Angel]

Buckwheat is actually one of the kinds I have sitting on the sideboard awaiting Wednesday night -- I got it at a farmers' market from this local beekeeper, who evidently sells on line as well (scroll down to near the bottom).  It is SO dark and thick-looking -- it really is amazing how different they all look.  We also have two types of clover, three types of wildflower, one apple blossom, one mesquite, several varieties of "raw," and jars from Mexico, Brazil, Chile, Israel and Scotland. I can't wait to see how different they taste!

 

I was telling dh about your honey experiment!  It looks so yummy!  I had no clue there were so many types of honey.  Now we are keen to try some ourselves.

 

 

Come to think of it my mom did "ban" the books she read (and still reads), and they were all over the house. She reads the bodice ripping, quivering thighs romance type books. Of course, I sneaked away into my room with those books. Read them under my blanket with a flashlight at night. Learned a lot I did.  :lol:

 

. I have a major problem though. I'm in my pjs already and discovered that I forgot the library books in the car. Do I venture out to get the books in my pjs or just wait until tomorrow? 

 

I sneaked my mom's bodice rippers as well.  Kathleen Woodweiss to be exact.  It's always a shame to me, now that I'm older and don't read that anymore, that there is such stuff.  Some of my favorite stories were written in a bodice ripper book (like Shanna by Woodweiss and Almost Heaven by McNaught).  Stories I won't revisit because of the explicitness.  Sigh.  Funny enough, now I know that almost all the bodice rippers I read were Regency.   :laugh:   I was living in the naughty part of Flufferton Abbey before I knew it was Flufferton Abbey  ;)

 

And for heaven's sake, I hope you went out in your pj's to get your books!  Nobody cares!  I traipse around in my pj's all the time.   :w00t:  :lol:

 

Finished Slaughterhouse-Five (again) last night, part of my 'banned books' reading. It still holds a warm & cherished place in my favorite books list. I adore Vonnegut's writing.

 

From wikipedia:

 

Angel, I promised you a few comments about it. Looking back through, it does have profanity. (More than I remembered as that does not tend to stick in my mind.) Imo, it is not used just for the sake of using it, but fits within the story &/or the one or two characters who use it. To me, it is fine & not excessive. Ymmv. I don't think the sex parts will bother you as they are not explicit. (Again, my opinion. Fwiw, I will say that imo Outlander is much, much more graphic, as are many books out there on the market today as bodice-ripper or romance type stuff. Some YA has more stuff than this too.) There is some violence (it is a war book), but I know that you & I are similar re: extreme emotional response to animal books & don't like harsh emotional trauma stuff. (I can't handle stuff like that for the most part & I feel it more the older I get.) Even though this is a war book, I think you can handle the parts that mention some horrible things; I think you can bear it because of Vonnegut's writing style. He doesn't linger on gore or horror, it's almost as if it's mentioned in passing -- such a light touch, in a way, so you know the horror but you are not wallowing in it. (I can read this book without crying, whereas The Book Thief had me in a crying, sobbing ball, using an entire box of tissues to get through the end of the book.) Billy Pilgrim (the main character) is such a nice guy, mostly seeming slightly clueless, innocent, but watching, observing, telling what is going on around him.... Ironically, even though we've discussed the various reasons this book has been challenged or banned, I think the thing you might find most challenging is Vonnegut's writing style, lol. It is modern, non-linear writing, bouncing not just through time but also between here & the alien planet (but I know you're cool with the aliens :lol: ). Imo, this bouncing through time makes this book effective & bearable as you get a snippet of war info, then might bounce to Billy's life 15-20 years after the war, looking at some nice moment in his life at that point. So, with a huge 'ymmv may vary from mine' reminder, I'd suggest giving the book a try, maybe through chapter two. Hopefully you'll want to continue past that point, but if you don't, I think you will still be ok (no lasting harm) from having read the first two chapters. Oh, and one more side note.... I've read a few of Vonnegut's books (at least five or six, I think) & have loved most of them. However, I avoided Slaughterhouse-Five for the longest time just because of the title alone. (Ahem. Remember me & animal no-no stuff? 'Nuff said.) Yes, I know that reasoning seems silly, even though that reasoning worked just fine for me for many years. Anyway, I'm so glad I have read this (multiple times) in spite of the title (which is not my favorite but definitely has resonance, truth, & meaning for & with the story). So it goes.

 

 

I picked it up yesterday at the library and started it last night.  I'm in Chapter 2.  I will keep you posted.  

 

I also picked up The Giver and The Graveyard Book.  

 

Also in book related news, you know how I said that Aly had a red bucket like Kate's from The Mysterious Benedict Society?  Well, yesterday we had to go and buy rope and fishing twine to go in the bucket and she is outside using the rope to climb a tree  :rolleyes: