What to do if a family is not teaching their children

[ColleenInWis]

I will never understand the attitude that the worst homeschool education is still better than the best public school education.  That's complete and utter nonsense.

 

 

 

Yes!  I believe this is one of the homeschool myths that causes problems like the extreme case of neglect about which the OP is concerned.  I heard this statement at a recent support group meeting:  If my child never learns his multiplication tables, at least he will know the Bible.  Au contraire--it depends on why he doesn't learn his multiplication tables.  Is it because of a learning disability which is severe enough that multiplication isn't an option for him?  Or is it because he doesn't need to memorize them--he's a math prodigy who has a mind like a calculator?  Or, is it because you, the homeschool teacher, are too lazy or distracted or selfish or obsessive about control to take the time to teach your child mathematics?  

 

I say, let's combat the myths while we can.  I understand that families have strong, very strong, convictions to not send children to gov't school.  We are very close to that ourselves.  But, if we say we are going to homeschool, we need to take responsibility to give a decent education.  Or send them to someone who will.

[ColleenInWis]

OP, have you seen this site?  It may help bolster your knowledge and give you some facts to share with your friends.  I don't advocate all the positions this group holds, but they have done a ton of research about educational neglect laws in different states, etc.  Coalition for Responsible Home Education

[Justmeandyou]

What if one of these kids shows up in your co-op class?  How do you handle it?  How do you not make them feel stupid?  A 15yo is WAY behind a high school writing class and would be better in a 5th- 7th grade class.  How do you do that?

 

Oh my, that would be hard.  If you are issuing a grade, then you'd have to talk to the parents and find out why he is so behind.  If it is a LD, then perhaps adaptations can be made.

[Justmeandyou]

So, very tentatively, I am jumping in to ask a question that has been occurring to me as I've kept up with the thread over the last few days. Several posters have stated that it would be fine if she were unschooling, but since the mother has stated that she *means* to teach them but just never gets to it, she is *not* unschooling. My question stems from that thought. Is there a difference between an *intentional* unschooler and an "accidental" unschooler? How would the children's lives look any different if the mom declared herself an unschooler? Is unschooling educational neglect? What is the difference?

 

I am asking in seriousness--I have no agenda regarding unschooling. It just seems that some posters feel that the label makes a difference, and my understanding of unschooling (which admittedly may be uninformed) is that the actual outworking of unschooling may look very much like what is happening here.

 

This is a very good question.  The unschooling families that I know personally teach the basics like reading and math as a way for the kids to learn what they really want to know.  So if a child is interested in space flight, they would need to learn how to do math and to read in order to learn about space flight.  The unschooling families that I am familiar with want their children to love to learn, so they do the normal stuff in elementary so that in middle and high school, the kids can learn whatever they want. 

 

If a family is unschooling and not teaching their kids how to read, write or how to do (basic) math, then that is not unschooling (IMO), that is not schooling at all. 

[Justmeandyou]

OP, have you seen this site?  It may help bolster your knowledge and give you some facts to share with your friends.  I don't advocate all the positions this group holds, but they have done a ton of research about educational neglect laws in different states, etc.  Coalition for Responsible Home Education

 

Thank you.

[Pen]

The thread title and early posts got replies of a certain nature.

 

Later on there were posts that said the mom wanted OP's help and things about OP having the children for a day and finding out both how behind they were and also that they are eager to learn. If the thread title had more reflected these latter things, the replies might have been different...   Not so much people thinking OP is butting in and so on.

[mama27]

This is a very good question.  The unschooling families that I know personally teach the basics like reading and math as a way for the kids to learn what they really want to know.  So if a child is interested in space flight, they would need to learn how to do math and to read in order to learn about space flight.  The unschooling families that I am familiar with want their children to love to learn, so they do the normal stuff in elementary so that in middle and high school, the kids can learn whatever they want. 

 

If a family is unschooling and not teaching their kids how to read, write or how to do (basic) math, then that is not unschooling (IMO), that is not schooling at all. 

 

But that's just it, if the child has no desire to learn these things, then some unschooling famiilies do NOT teach them until the child DOES show interest because believe it or not, that is actually what they believe unschooling IS. You don't have to agree with it but calling CPS sure will not help those kids!

[Justmeandyou]

But that's just it, if the child has no desire to learn these things, then some unschooling famiilies do NOT teach them until the child DOES show interest because believe it or not, that is actually what they believe unschooling IS. You don't have to agree with it but calling CPS sure will not help those kids!

I don't know.  I personally have not come across unschoolers like that. 

[Sdel]

But that's just it, if the child has no desire to learn these things, then some unschooling famiilies do NOT teach them until the child DOES show interest because believe it or not, that is actually what they believe unschooling IS. You don't have to agree with it but calling CPS sure will not help those kids!

 

But the OP has said that when the children have been with her they were eager to learn, thus showing interest.  So, how do children who are EAGER to learn, unschooling or not, fail to have learned something as basic as reading/numbers? 

 

Stefanie

[idnib]

But that's just it, if the child has no desire to learn these things, then some unschooling famiilies do NOT teach them until the child DOES show interest because believe it or not, that is actually what they believe unschooling IS. You don't have to agree with it but calling CPS sure will not help those kids!

 

I agree with you about this definition of unschooling. :iagree:

 

What would you call it if the children are eager to learn and nobody is taking the time to make that happen?

[Haiku]

What would you call it if the children are eager to learn and nobody is taking the time to make that happen?

 

Neglect.

[Justmeandyou]

Neglect.

 

Yes.

[Soror]

Neglect.

:iagree:

 

And what I think is appalling to see on a forum dedicated to home education is people unwilling to acknowledge that educational neglect exists.  Nevermind about whether or not to call CPS as the OP has said she is not doing that but even questioning at what point it becomes neglect is apparently troublesome to some people. Sad to say plenty are quick to jump on ps and about the lack of education in many schools but nope, hs'ers are evidently immune from this. Some hs'ers are great but there are some that aren't, some that are plain neglectful to their children. Hs'ing is not always the best option or even a good option for some families. It hurts the whole community to ignore these things.

[kiana]

I don't know.  I personally have not come across unschoolers like that. 

 

There definitely are unschoolers like that -- I have known some.

 

Some of the kids were very positive about their education later on in life.

 

Others (and I do know these personally) not only are very negative about their education, but at least 1 of them is a "ban homeschooling" activist simply because she feels her education harmed her so much that nobody else should ever be put in the position she was in.

 

(please note -- I don't agree with her, so you don't need to post telling me how wrong her position is or anything else. That's her position and she is unlikely to change).

[Tiramisu]

What if one of these kids shows up in your co-op class?  How do you handle it?  How do you not make them feel stupid?  A 15yo is WAY behind a high school writing class and would be better in a 5th- 7th grade class.  How do you do that?

 

To be honest, when I've had kids that are behind or really struggle, in most cases the moms have been really involved and that has helped because the work gets done and appropriate accommodations develop very naturally. They come to the class and/or they do the work along with the child.

 

Sometimes the kids are behind because of a disability or because of past neglect. Sometimes they catch up, sometimes not. I know one family that used coop to give the mom the structure to stay on task because she could not on her own. Some children in the family did make good progress but one could never advance well, and I suspect it was because of an undiagnosed disability and the mom agreed. She looked into getting an evaluation but I don't think she ever did. But the mom did care about the class and was involved with her children's work, so it wasn't a problem for me.

 

There have been other situations where the kids who just don't do the work. Most of the time, it does seem like there are learning issues contributing to the kids wanting to avoid the work. But kids can also be insecure about their work compared to others if there has been educational neglect or a lack of parental involvement in schooling. I think that could be overcome with the right encouragement, but it's hard when the moms aren't involved. There have been a couple of cases where I talked to moms repeatedly and they say, yes, Billy needs to do the work, and they say they'll follow up but they don't. Those are the kids I worry about the most because sometimes I see the kids truly have special gifts that are being undeveloped or I suspect a disability that needs addressing, and sometimes both. This, BTW, is completely different for a family that says from the get-go, I want my child to take a class but they might not complete the assignments for whatever reason. I see that as a family's prerogative in a coop setting. 

 

I try to grade fairly if everyone is taking the same test, for example, but I also provide opportunities for projects for the kids who aren't great writers or test takers, so they can learn and explore their talents. I recently have been teaching subjects that allow me to do this, but if I were teaching a writing class it would be harder. When I taught a junior high writing class, I would only grade for the parents who asked for grading.

 

If it's a writing class for a high school grade, that would be tough. I would talk to the mom and make the suggestion for a more appropriate class if she thought the student would be willing. I have talked to moms of kids who had difficulties in my classes and I suspected a disability. In every case I can remember, the moms were relieved that I had recognized the issue and wanted to help deal positively with it. So I wouldn't be afraid if I were you.

 

I try never to draw attention to kids who are struggling, but I try to encourage them. I talk to the parents about the problems but simply encourage the kids the best I can.

[Haiku]

 

And what I think is appalling to see on a forum dedicated to home education is people unwilling to acknowledge that educational neglect exists.  Nevermind about whether or not to call CPS as the OP has said she is not doing that but even questioning at what point it becomes neglect is apparently troublesome to some people. Sad to say plenty are quick to jump on ps and about the lack of education in many schools but nope, hs'ers are evidently immune from this. Some hs'ers are great but there are some that aren't, some that are plain neglectful to their children. Hs'ing is not always the best option or even a good option for some families. It hurts the whole community to ignore these things.

 

:iagree:

 

It's very frustrating to see people focusing on calling CPS (which the OP has said she's not doing) and failing to take the OP at her word so that they can defend parents who aren't doing right by their kids. I sent my oldest to school (and I went to school myself), so I am well aware of the downsides of schools. But there are inadequate homeschools as well as inadequate schools, and it doesn't hurt the homeschooling community to admit that. It actually hurts the homeschooling community more to try to cover that up and deny it. When my kids were younger, I was of the (misguided) opinion that "anything you do at home is better than what they would get at school." Now that my kids are older, I can see now how utterly foolish that is, and it frustrates me that it is one of the pervasive lies about homeschooling. There are times when going to school would be better. Homeshooling is not a utopian panacea. Homeschoolers are people just like everyone else, and, like everyone else, some are good at what they do, and some aren't. And children are individuals, with individual strengths, weaknesses, and motivations, so asserting that "if you just leave children alone, they will learn everything they need to know" as a one-size solution for every kid is, frankly, counter to the spirit of homeschooling, which is to reject a one-size approach in favor of tailoring the education to the specific student. Just my .02.

[Tiramisu]

:iagree:

 

It's very frustrating to see people focusing on calling CPS (which the OP has said she's not doing) and failing to take the OP at her word so that they can defend parents who aren't doing right by their kids. I sent my oldest to school (and I went to school myself), so I am well aware of the downsides of schools. But there are inadequate homeschools as well as inadequate schools, and it doesn't hurt the homeschooling community to admit that. It actually hurts the homeschooling community more to try to cover that up and deny it. When my kids were younger, I was of the (misguided) opinion that "anything you do at home is better than what they would get at school." Now that my kids are older, I can see now how utterly foolish that is, and it frustrates me that it is one of the pervasive lies about homeschooling. There are times when going to school would be better. Homeshooling is not a utopian panacea. Homeschoolers are people just like everyone else, and, like everyone else, some are good at what they do, and some aren't. And children are individuals, with individual strengths, weaknesses, and motivations, so asserting that "if you just leave children alone, they will learn everything they need to know" as a one-size solution for every kid is, frankly, counter to the spirit of homeschooling, which is to reject a one-size approach in favor of tailoring the education to the specific student. Just my .02.

 

Great post. 

 

I've thought that many times that it's easy for people to use inadequate education in ps an excuse for slacking if they haven't had kids in ps lately, at least that's the case in our local schools. Having had a couple of kids in ps at different times and keeping on top of what they're doing has provided a lot of motivation for me to keep on my toes in educating the ones at home. I'm still critical of a lot of things--some aspects of the curriculum, the social environment, etc.--but generally the academics are good.  I realize it's not the same in every ps system.

 

Beware of rabbit trail...

 

I have learned that there are some things that our ps does better than me, despite my best efforts. Writing is one of them. I don't completely agree with certain aspects of their instruction but it has yielded good results in my children. First of all, it is very personalized. The class may learn certain concepts as a group, but the students meet privately with their teacher as they work on their own writing projects. They work on their writing for a big chunk of time everyday. Of course, I should be able to do that at home, but I don't get nearly the level of cooperation they give their teachers. And our local ps uses MIF!

[albeto.]

:iagree:

 

And what I think is appalling to see on a forum dedicated to home education is people unwilling to acknowledge that educational neglect exists. 

 

Can you link some posts that reflect this? I consider teaching concepts that directly and blatantly defy actual factual knowledge to be negligent as well, but that is supported here without issue. I find that appalling to see on an education forum as well. 

[Jane Elliot]

 

 

And what I think is appalling to see on a forum dedicated to home education is people unwilling to acknowledge that educational neglect exists.  Nevermind about whether or not to call CPS as the OP has said she is not doing that but even questioning at what point it becomes neglect is apparently troublesome to some people. Sad to say plenty are quick to jump on ps and about the lack of education in many schools but nope, hs'ers are evidently immune from this. Some hs'ers are great but there are some that aren't, some that are plain neglectful to their children. Hs'ing is not always the best option or even a good option for some families. It hurts the whole community to ignore these things.

 

This is a straw man. Where are all the people who are saying that educational neglect does not exist? And the op has clearly stated that she sees calling cps as an option if the family does not make positive changes.

[mama27]

This is a straw man. Where are all the people who are saying that educational neglect does not exist? And the op has clearly stated that she sees calling cps as an option if the family does not make positive changes.

 

Yep. She has said that.

 

Also, educational neglect does exist, I've seen it, read about it, etc. I never said it didn't but I also know a little about the foster care system and I do know that sometimes all it takes is one phone call from a person and one case worker or guardian who disagrees with homeschooling to get kids pulled from their homes, taken from their parents, separated from their siblings, losing their friends and all that is familiar and comfortable, because someone disagrees with how they are (or are NOT) being educated.

Is this particular family neglecting their kids educationaly? Possibly. The OP said the kids were eager to learn with her. My kids would be too because they like to please people they aren't familiar with. You've heard of kids who behave great with a sitter but the second the parents arrive they behave horrible? Mine are like that. Maybe these kids are.

The point is without KNOWING there is true neglect happening, not even a suspicion of abuse, but just a possibility of educational neglect, or maybe just a difference in opinion on how a child should be educated, calling in CPS can damage these kids for their whole lives AND it could set an presidence on changing the homeschooling laws for all the peoplein that state. Once you take away someone's freedom to raise their own children how they see fit, you put ALL homeschoolers freedoms at risk. Obviously, I am NOT speaking of when a child is actually abusedor neglected.

 

[albeto.]

Yep. She has said that.

 

To be fair, she has also said she didn't want to - not that it necessarily changes the idea that she would. Not feeling good about something and not doing it are two different things. I hope the OP can find a socially appropriate way to help, too. I think we all do. We just disagree what that looks like. 

[Tiramisu]

nm

 

[ColleenInWis]

So many tragic stories of things that happen in families, schools, foster care...  That's why I support justyouandme for being willing to put thought, prayer (making an assumption here), energy, and effort into helping the children of this family.  While their neglect, if continued, might not turn out to be such a terrible horror story, it will still affect them in negative ways we can't foresee.  So, justyouandme, do what you can.  May the parents wake up and do their job before it's too late. 

[Orthodox6]

It still is possible -- and very sensible -- to provide the father of this family with an annotated list of remedies to consider and to implement . . . and then leave the family alone to manage what is their own business, once the options have been suggested. That is the only appropriate action that I honestly can conceive defensible for anyone aware of a family that fits the profile which has emerged over the many posts.

[Susan in TX]

I had a couple of the kids spend this weekend with us (at dad's request, mom is out of town).  We had to do school on Saturday to make up for missing a day last week, so they did school with us.  They are very behind (e.g. cannot i.d. the symbols for adding, subtracting or numbers over 100, do not know all sounds/letters)  but so eager to learn. 

 

This is just heartbreaking. How can their father not know that they aren't learning? Does he not care? is he in denial? I find it very hard to believe that these children are not being neglected and/or abused. I think a call to CPS is the right thing to do.

 

Susan in TX

[Pen]

But that's just it, if the child has no desire to learn these things, then some unschooling famiilies do NOT teach them until the child DOES show interest because believe it or not, that is actually what they believe unschooling IS. You don't have to agree with it but calling CPS sure will not help those kids!

 

I do not think this example fits the facts as presented in this thread.

 

But let me ask a question that comes to my mind.  Or two.

 

Suppose a baby or child never shows an interest in taking a bath or wearing clean clothes? Is it okay--and assume this is a family that is in a house with jobs and so on--not on the streets homeless--  to say, "well, I am waiting until my child asks me to give him/her a bath, then I'll do it?"  Would you say, great, that is the radical "unbathing" philosophy of parenting? 

 

Suppose a family does not believe in presenting nutritious food unless a child demands it and clearly shows an interest? If the child is only showing an interest in eating candy and drinking soda pop, is that perfectly fine?  (I am assuming that a child fed nothing at all would cry and thus "show interest" in food. Thus I am giving an example of non-nutritious food, but to better equate to the "no teaching" unless it is requested, maybe "no feeding" would be more parallel.)

 

 

 

Most people posting here seem to consider providing nutritious food to be basic, but some people seem to be not so sure that education is important.

 

I consider not providing food as well as not providing education to be neglect because many children do not even know what to want or ask for unless it is first presented, and many may not act in their own interests in terms of healthy eating or education, but rather need adult guidance in that.

 

Under certain circumstances, illness, war, etc., where only food or education could be provided, but not both, I would certainly put good food first, since it is a more absolute health and survival need. But education is also important, and IMO not to provide it in the circumstances as described in this thread is neglect.

 

 

 

Our state has standardized testing required, so a radical unschool family would need their children to at least meet those requirements for minimum levels of reading and math skills. To me that is a reasonable way to deal with the situation, though obviously not what OP's state has in place. Frankly, and thankfully, all the unschoolers I have met have done far more than the minimum, though not necessarily in typical time frames or using typical methods.  To me, I agree with the OP's characterization of what the family described is (not) doing in terms of education to be neglectful "not educating," not "unschool."

[albeto.]

Most people posting here seem to consider providing nutritious food to be basic, but some people seem to be not so sure that education is important.

 

Which posts suggest to you the poster doesn't seem to be sure education is important? Can you link a few?

[mama27]

I do not think this example fits the facts as presented in this thread.

 

But let me ask a question that comes to my mind.  Or two.

 

Suppose a baby or child never shows an interest in taking a bath or wearing clean clothes? Is it okay--and assume this is a family that is in a house with jobs and so on--not on the streets homeless--  to say, "well, I am waiting until my child asks me to give him/her a bath, then I'll do it?"  Would you say, great, that is the radical "unbathing" philosophy of parenting? 

 

Suppose a family does not believe in presenting nutritious food unless a child demands it and clearly shows an interest? If the child is only showing an interest in eating candy and drinking soda pop, is that perfectly fine?  (I am assuming that a child fed nothing at all would cry and thus "show interest" in food. Thus I am giving an example of non-nutritious food, but to better equate to the "no teaching" unless it is requested, maybe "no feeding" would be more parallel.)

 

 

 

Most people posting here seem to consider providing nutritious food to be basic, but some people seem to be not so sure that education is important.

 

I consider not providing food as well as not providing education to be neglect because many children do not even know what to want or ask for unless it is first presented, and many may not act in their own interests in terms of healthy eating or education, but rather need adult guidance in that.

 

Under certain circumstances, illness, war, etc., where only food or education could be provided, but not both, I would certainly put good food first, since it is a more absolute health and survival need. But education is also important, and IMO not to provide it in the circumstances as described in this thread is neglect.

 

 

 

Our state has standardized testing required, so a radical unschool family would need their children to at least meet those requirements for minimum levels of reading and math skills. To me that is a reasonable way to deal with the situation, though obviously not what OP's state has in place. Frankly, and thankfully, all the unschoolers I have met have done far more than the minimum, though not necessarily in typical time frames or using typical methods.  To me, I agree with the OP's characterization of what the family described is (not) doing in terms of education to be neglectful "not educating," not "unschool."

 

I have read of people like that who don't believe in forcing their kids to do anything. I do not agree with that at all but there has to be a line drawn between parental freedom and neglect to the point of involving any authorities. where should that line be drawn? and who decides where to draw it?

 

 

ETA: it concerns me that the OP is working for the system because I feel her views of where these kids "should" be will be compared to what she does for a living and probably agrees with. I think speaking with BOTH parents about her concerns is enough, if nothing changes from that, just let it go. Going any further than that will cause unneeded pain for this family. If the only wrong thing the parents are doing is not educating their kids in a manner that the OP agrees with, that really isn't her business.

 

[mama27]

 

 

 

Most people posting here seem to consider providing nutritious food to be basic, but some people seem to be not so sure that education is important.

 

 

 

 

 

Our state has standardized testing required, so a radical unschool family would need their children to at least meet those requirements for minimum levels of reading and math skills. To me that is a reasonable way to deal with the situation, though obviously not what OP's state has in place. Frankly, and thankfully, all the unschoolers I have met have done far more than the minimum, though not necessarily in typical time frames or using typical methods.  To me, I agree with the OP's characterization of what the family described is (not) doing in terms of education to be neglectful "not educating," not "unschool."

I don't think anyone here thinks education is not important. I actually do support unschooling even though I don't do it. I think it's the parents rights to decide how to raise their own kids as they see fit, as long as there is no abuse or true neglect going on.

 

So do you think that getting CPS involved (OP HAS said she would call as a last resort), is a reasonable thing to do?

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

Can you link some posts that reflect this?

Seriously? LOL You said yourself in an earlier post:

 

Many people identify as unschoolers who aren't actively engaged in their children's education, by your standards, mine, or someone else's. How would you even identify appropriate standards in unschooling anyway? They don't "strew" things around the house, they don't take them on fantastic field trips every month, they don't enrich their lives in new and exciting ways. They're still unschooling, whether or not you and I are uncomfortable with this approach.

I guess this is the perfect (and convenient) paradox for nonschoolers who just can't be bothered to educate their kids. Hey! I'm an unschooler, differentiated from someone who neglects my kids' education because...it's on purpose! I'm doing nothing (like seriously, NOTHING, for real!) but no worries, because it's totally on purpose! For philosophical reasons! So that isn't neglect!"

 

So what if it's not on purpose? Same net effect of uneducated kids. One parent is unschooling, but one is neglectful? Both ways, the kids are still neglected. So really, LOL, how can educational neglect exist to someone who basically keeps arguing that unschooling might appear similar to educational neglect...but...isn't because...it stems from a philosophical position rather than laziness or ineptitude?

 

(Extra points if you leave religion out of your answer! :tongue_smilie: )

[kiana]

I don't think anyone here thinks education is not important. I actually do support unschooling even though I don't do it. I think it's the parents rights to decide how to raise their own kids as they see fit, as long as there is no abuse or true neglect going on.

 

So do you think that getting CPS involved (OP HAS said she would call as a last resort), is a reasonable thing to do?

 

 

Quite honestly, I think almost everyone would agree with you on the bolded.

 

But the issue is that people will vary on where true neglect falls. Some people, for example, consider pretty trivial things like letting a 6 year old play in your yard alone neglect (I am not making this up) and other people won't consider things like not filling a (free!) prescription for your 6 year old's urinary tract infection neglect (and I am not making that up either). You're *never* going to get everyone to agree ... as you've seen from this thread, even on this, some people fall into the "call CPS immediately!" camp, and others fall into the "Under no circumstances!" camp. 

[Haiku]

I think it's the parents rights to decide how to raise their own kids as they see fit, as long as there is no abuse or true neglect going on.

 

Educational neglect is true neglect. It is real neglect. It might not appear as shocking as physical neglect does, but it, too, can have long-lasting negative effects for the child. I'm very surprised by some of the blasè attitudes I'm seeing in this thread. IMO, neglect of a child is everyone's business.

[albeto.]

Seriously? LOL You said yourself in an earlier post:

 

"Many people identify as unschoolers who aren't actively engaged in their children's education, by your standards, mine, or someone else's."

You interpret my comment about subjective standards as indicative that I am unwilling to acknowledge that educational neglect exists? How do you connect these two? 

 

I guess this is the perfect (and convenient) paradox for nonschoolers who just can't be bothered to educate their kids. Hey! I'm an unschooler, differentiated from someone who neglects my kids' education because...it's on purpose! I'm doing nothing (like seriously, NOTHING, for real!) but no worries, because it's totally on purpose! For philosophical reasons! So that isn't neglect!"

 

Is this a logical argument you're promoting based on any objective information, or just thinking hypothetically out loud?

 

So what if it's not on purpose? Same net effect of uneducated kids. One parent is unschooling, but one is neglectful? Both ways, the kids are still neglected. So really, LOL, how can educational neglect exist to someone who basically keeps arguing that unschooling might appear similar to educational neglect...but...isn't because...it stems from a philosophical position rather than laziness or ineptitude?

 

My comment about not meeting standards does not reflect any opinion about the existence or nonexistence of educational neglect. It reflects the idea that subjective standards are just that - subjective.

 

(Extra points if you leave religion out of your answer! :tongue_smilie: )

 

I don't mind conversing with you, but your passive aggressive hostility is unwarranted, distracting, and in my opinion, childish and unnecessary.

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

You interpret my comment about subjective standards as indicative that I am unwilling to acknowledge that educational neglect exists? How do you connect these two?

 

Is this a logical argument you're promoting based on any objective information, or just thinking hypothetically out loud?

 

My comment about not meeting standards does not reflect any opinion about the existence or nonexistence of educational neglect. It reflects the idea that subjective standards are just that - subjective.

 

I don't mind conversing with you, but your passive aggressive hostility is unwarranted, distracting, and in my opinion, childish and unnecessary.

Huh? I was not being passive aggressive at all.

 

The italicized was hypothetical.

 

I think when (general) you argue that standards are subjective to the extreme of including zero standards that you are ultimately saying educational neglect cannot be defined or, therefore, proven.

 

I doubt we will ever agree, but I am not attacking you. I really was simply surprised by (what I interpreted as) the irony of your question. The :tongue_smilie: is supposed to be a light-hearted kinda guy. I considered a wink, but thought he was condescending and, yes, passive aggressive, which was not my goal.

[Pen]

Which posts suggest to you the poster doesn't seem to be sure education is important? Can you link a few?

 

 

Cannot seem to multiquote--

 

A post on same page as the one above from you, by Mama27 starts by saying that she believes that educational neglect does exist, but finishes by saying that calling CPS for "actual" abuse or "neglect" would be a different matter....   thus I would conclude from that that she does not think educational neglect is "actual neglect"...

 

 

I should have written that some people seem to think it is not nearly "as" important, not that people think it is not important at all. 

 

I am myself to some degree in that same category, and if you find prior posts by me, I also did not (and still do not) think calling CPS would be a good first step in such a situation. 

 

My state is too a place where educational neglect and other neglect are considered differently, and CPS here does not involve itself with educational neglect so far as I know, but we do have homeschool laws that would require a child in the situation as described to either be placed in a public school, or otherwise educated to the point that they can pass the standardized tests, or to be following an IEP and making progress according to the IEP if they have LD's that make passing the tests impossible.

 

While I think it is not as important as food, there comes a point where arguing that a family that does not even mean to unschool is unschooling, started to sound like a family not feeding their children and having some food that they bought and put in the freezer a few years ago, but have not go around to using yet...and the kids look to be skeletal thin, ...     and others then step in to say that is fine, it is just a philosophy of "uncooking" and equate it to raw foodists...a perfectly fine choice, when there is no indication that there is any raw food eating going on,    but rather the situation appears to be no food at all, meant to get around to food, but just didn't.    As an analogy.

 

 

Or in this case as described, no education at all.

 

 

As much as anything, I am questioning my own sense that this, as described, is not yet a CPS call issue.

[Orthodox6]

I have just had a thought which I don't think has been offered as a possible factor. If it has, I apologize for redundancy.

 

Maybe the mother of this family cannot read.

 

There continues to be serious stigma attached to adult illiteracy. The mother might be ashamed to admit to her own limitations.

 

Of course I do not know the true situation. Nobody here, including the OP, knows the true and complete story.

 

If the mother did turn out to have this, or some other genuine obstacle, my views of the situation change radically.

[Jane Elliot]

 

Cannot seem to multiquote--

 

A post on same page as the one above from you, by Mama27 starts by saying that she believes that educational neglect does exist, but finishes by saying that calling CPS for "actual" abuse or "neglect" would be a different matter....   thus I would conclude from that that she does not think educational neglect is "actual neglect"...

 

 

I should have written that some people seem to think it is not nearly "as" important, not that people think it is not important at all. 

 

 

 

 

I believe that children should be educated, that it's extremely important that they be educated, and that to not educate the children in your care is educational neglect. I believe that CPS should never be called in a case where educational neglect is the only sort of neglect going on in the home. There is nothing contradictory in those two beliefs. I'll wager that I think education is as important as those who would call CPS think it is. I just don't think calling CPS is a good solution in cases of educational neglect where the children are otherwise cared for. To say that people who wouldn't call CPS don't care about educational neglect or don't think it exists is an assumption.

[Pen]

. I believe that CPS should never be called in a case where educational neglect is the only sort of neglect going on in the home. 

 

Why not? "Never" is very absolute. I am not trying to be argumentative, I am honestly wondering about your thinking on this.

 

What if you knew that CPS would require education to take place but would not remove the children from the home. Would that change your thinking?

[Pen]

 

double posted

 

[albeto.]

Why not? "Never" is very absolute. I am not trying to be argumentative, I am honestly wondering about your thinking on this.

 

What if you knew that CPS would require education to take place but would not remove the children from the home. Would that change your thinking?

 

The homeschool family in Texas neglected the education of their children. The courts found their educational approach negligent and unlawful. I didn't follow this story, but were the children removed from the family during the investigation? Do you think CPS would have been the appropriate agency to be called in? If children were routinely removed from a parent suspected of neglect, would that make a difference in your opinion? Why would CPS even be considered for an educational problem? 

[Pen]

 Why would CPS even be considered for an educational problem? 

 

Because in some states it has been put into law that CPS is supposed to be called for educational neglect. OP did not reveal what state she is in so far as I know. But at some point she had written that in her state the school authority will not do anything, thus leaving CPS as the only alternative. Thankfully where I am it would be under the homeschool authority of the school district.

[kiana]

The homeschool family in Texas neglected the education of their children. The courts found their educational approach negligent and unlawful. I didn't follow this story, but were the children removed from the family during the investigation? Do you think CPS would have been the appropriate agency to be called in? If children were routinely removed from a parent suspected of neglect, would that make a difference in your opinion? Why would CPS even be considered for an educational problem? 

 

They do not seem to have been. They did get forced out of their business, but it was in a family quarrel over homeschooling and not by the government. As a matter of fact, they did not even get convicted of the misdemeanor truancy charges (the school district dropped charges), but filed the lawsuit alleging that the charges should never have been filed and that they had an absolute constitutional right to educate their children or not in the privacy of their own home, without providing any documentation whatsoever to any government official. Where it hit the national media in a "the sky is falling" manner is when the court ruled that they do not, in fact, have such a right.

 

The bar for removal for neglect is pretty high -- especially for immediate removal. Yes, you hear about the occasional case making the news where someone makes a mistake. That is very uncommon. As long as the child is being fed, housed, and not beaten or molested, it's pretty hard to get an emergency removal. If it were routine to remove children for any neglect allegation, I would never call CPS for anything short of molestation that I considered 95% likely or direct physical harm. But I don't think the off-chance is sufficiently high to not call for what *I* would consider a sufficiently serious allegation.

[Jane Elliot]

Why not? "Never" is very absolute. I am not trying to be argumentative, I am honestly wondering about your thinking on this.

 

What if you knew that CPS would require education to take place but would not remove the children from the home. Would that change your thinking?

 

It doesn't really matter because I don't think you could work under this assumption. That's not at all how CPS works in reality. I don't think you could guarantee that sort of positive outcome, and the potential trauma could cause more damage than it prevented. 

 

By calling CPS, you may succeed in forcing one family's kids into school, but you will send the next ten like them into hiding. They won't be joining co-ops. They won't be letting their kids stay with a concerned educational specialist over a weekend. They won't be talking to friends about their homeschooling...I've seen families pick up and move to a different state when they thought CPS might be called. In the long run, you've created a culture of fear thereby eliminating avenues for assistance.

 

I think there are countless other positive alternatives, making CPS as an option superfluous. The op has been given several suggestions. If they don't work out, she can reassess and come up with more, but CPS doesn't need to be one of them.

 

Another reason I wouldn't call is, where does it stop? Do we call CPS if kids aren't immunized? Many think that not immunizing is neglect. I firmly believe that not immunizing places kids and others in danger. I wouldn't call CPS for that. Somewhere you have to draw a line. I've drawn mine.

 

CPS is not the organization to call in my state for cases of homeschool educational neglect. They are not equipped to deal with it. We have a separate independent agency which is specifically equipped to investigate reports of homeschool educational neglect.

[mama27]

It doesn't really matter because I don't think you could work under this assumption. That's not at all how CPS works in reality. I don't think you could guarantee that sort of positive outcome, and the potential trauma could cause more damage than it prevented. 

 

By calling CPS, you may succeed in forcing one family's kids into school, but you will send the next ten like them into hiding. They won't be joining co-ops. They won't be letting their kids stay with a concerned educational specialist over a weekend. They won't be talking to friends about their homeschooling...I've seen families pick up and move to a different state when they thought CPS might be called. In the long run, you've created a culture of fear thereby eliminating avenues for assistance.

 

I think there are countless other positive alternatives, making CPS as an option superfluous. The op has been given several suggestions. If they don't work out, she can reassess and come up with more, but CPS doesn't need to be one of them.

 

Another reason I wouldn't call is, where does it stop? Do we call CPS if kids aren't immunized? Many think that not immunizing is neglect. I firmly believe that not immunizing places kids and others in danger. I wouldn't call CPS for that. Somewhere you have to draw a line. I've drawn mine.

 

CPS is not the organization to call in my state for cases of homeschool educational neglect. They are not equipped to deal with it. We have a separate independent agency which is specifically equipped to investigate reports of homeschool educational neglect.

 

Exactly my thoughts!! I agree 100% with you about the immunizations but does that mean I should call CPS about my neighbors kids that aren't immunized?

 

Those that support calling CPS, do you realize the power they have over wether or not to remove children from a home? They do not have to go to a judge, they can remove the kids after a ten minute conversation, if they want. It's very naïve to think this couldn't happen.

 

What I meant by true neglect is kids who have no food in the house, haven't bathed because the plumbing doesn't work, there's garbage and roaches and rats crawling on them, the parent(s) are out getting high, partying, or whatever, and the kids are fending for themselves day and night. Strangers are in and out all day long. All night long. Etc.

 

Does any of this sound like what the OP described? No.

 

Again, where do we draw the line? I don't know. But I don't believe it's in a case of not educating kids according to the school system standards, which the OP is doing.

 

 

[mama27]

The homeschool family in Texas neglected the education of their children. The courts found their educational approach negligent and unlawful. I didn't follow this story, but were the children removed from the family during the investigation? Do you think CPS would have been the appropriate agency to be called in? If children were routinely removed from a parent suspected of neglect, would that make a difference in your opinion? Why would CPS even be considered for an educational problem? 

 

The last paragraph in this story is what concerns me. It states that parents do not have an absolute constitutional right to homeschool. That in itself should concern ALL homeschooling families.

 

As a side note, if these children in this article were not taught to read, how did they learn to play instruments? I'm being genuine here.

 

 

[Pen]

I don't think anyone here thinks education is not important. I actually do support unschooling even though I don't do it. I think it's the parents rights to decide how to raise their own kids as they see fit, as long as there is no abuse or true neglect going on.

 

So do you think that getting CPS involved (OP HAS said she would call as a last resort), is a reasonable thing to do?

 

 

 

I'd certainly not put a "never" on the idea. I think OP is the only one of us who is actually able to see what is going on at all--her view may be limited and partial, but ours are only what we have filtered through hers, plus our own ideas about it all, experience etc.

 

At this moment, I think what OP says she is doing is reasonable, namely trying to do other things to help and reserving the possibility of calling CPS as a possibility. 

 

I personally think that for OP to say directly to the family that she is worried enough to consider calling CPS  (but does not want to do so), might be a good idea. If there is anything going on like the mom actually giving flippant untrue statements about meaning to get around to opening the boxes of materials and never doing so (as some on here have said they themselves say things like that, rather than telling details of learning disabilities and so on to outsiders) it might elucidate more information if there is any. Of course, if that is the case and if CPS is called, the family could also present the results of evaluation for LD's show what they have actually been doing, but did not share with OP and so on.

 

If I were still a mandatory reporter and if I lived in a state that requires calling CPS for educational neglect, yes, I would call. I would also speak to someone in CPS whom I had a working relationship with and thought capable and excellent. And I would explain that in general, other than the education issue, I thought the children were being well cared for and should not be removed from the home, but that the family seems to need help getting their children into suitable educational circumstances.

 

But also if I were not a mandatory reporter, knew no one in the CPS office, but were in an education neglect recognized by CPS state, I would want to look at the statutes that apply to CPS and educational neglect to get a better idea of what CPS's range of possible response would be. And I would factor that into my decision. If the state statute says that in that state, educational neglect is grounds for immediate removal of the children and that there are no other options available to a CPS worker (which seems unlikely to me, but could be possible, I suppose), that would be different in my thinking than if it had other things specified as ways to deal with educational neglect--if for example it was more nearly like what the education district in my area would do for a similar situation, namely enforce the education laws as written, which have a number of acceptable things a family can do, but not educating is not one of them.

[Jane Elliot]

I personally think that for OP to say directly to the family that she is worried enough to consider calling CPS  (but does not want to do so), might be a good idea. If there is anything going on like the mom actually giving flippant untrue statements about meaning to get around to opening the boxes of materials and never doing so (as some on here have said they themselves say things like that, rather than telling details of learning disabilities and so on to outsiders) it might elucidate more information if there is any.

 

I agree with this. To not do so is almost disingenuous. The family should understand the nature of the relationship.

 

And if that's how op plans to proceed (even as a last resort), telling them that may motivate the parents. (edited to fix an unclear antecedent)

[Orthodox6]

The last paragraph in this story is what concerns me. It states that parents do not have an absolute constitutional right to homeschool. That in itself should concern ALL homeschooling families.

 

As a side note, if these children in this article were not taught to read, how did they learn to play instruments? I'm being genuine here.

My son was tickled by the daughter who ran away from home because she wanted an education. That is one fine young lady! I am stunned that the family pulled off this stunt for ten years (using dates from the article).

 

The instruments probably were played "by ear", which is of limited value.

 

Last that i have read, the state constitution of Oklahoma specifies homeschooling as a parental right. This linked story tells of Texas, thus requires scant additional comment.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

My son was tickled by the daughter who ran away from home because she wanted an education. That is one fine young lady! I am stunned that the family pulled off this stunt for ten years (using dates from the article).

 

The instruments probably were played "by ear", which is of limited value.

 

Last that i have read, the state constitution of Oklahoma specifies homeschooling as a parental right. This linked story tells of Texas, thus requires scant additional comment.

 

Playing by ear is eminently possible for illiterate persons and of far more than limited value, especially to the many throughout time and space who have made their living through this skill. Such stereotypes!

[Orthodox6]

Playing by ear is eminently possible for illiterate persons and of far more than limited value, especially to the many throughout time and space who have made their living through this skill. Such stereotypes!

The musician apologizes for offending you. Yes, a little stereotype did slip through.