Severe pain - alternatives to pain meds?

[Spryte]

I have a kidney stone that hasn't passed.  It is (obviously) very painful.  But I am allergic to all the pain meds.  Really.  :(

 

Spent yesterday in the ER, and it was agony.  At one point the doc walked in as tears were streaming down my face, and went through the list of meds again - going over my reactions to each. (Codeines/morphines/derivatives/etc) The hospital doesn't stock the only two meds I've not reacted to - demerol and darvocet - those might be off the market anyway, not sure.  We decided to try a low dose of dilaudid again, since that one seemed to have the least dangerous reaction (for me).  I did okay for a bit, got discharged and then collapsed inside our front door with excruciating chest pain, shortness of breath, and fainting.  Had to return to the ER on a stretcher.  

 

So now I am home.  In agony.  

 

I am doing deep breathing.  Meditating.  But it still gets away from me.  I called my primary, and she wracked her brain to come up with something - but no luck.

 

Any tips?  Any ideas at all for managing this pain would be appreciated.

 

Kidney stone tips appreciated too, since that's the source of the pain.  

 

 

[Twigs]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Um_2_4]

Find an acupuncture place nearby? They did amazing things for my DH's knee...... (course he was in China and they were all over the place).

 

Hope it passes quickly.Our friend was in the ER Saturday for one.

[gaillardia]

:grouphug:I'm so sorry. I don't think chiropractor or acupuncture would help, but I don't know that for sure. :crying: Sorry you're hurting.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Drink apple cider vinegar in water (to help dissolve the stones)

 

http://www.wikihow.com/Dissolve-Kidney-Stones

 

have they done an MRI to see if the stones are small enough to pass or if they need to be broken up  Do you know what kindo f stonres you have?  Asparagus is supposed to be good for the uric acid kind.  http://www.naturalremediesforkidneystones.net/asparagus-and-kidney-stones/

 

 

 

 

 

 

[magnificent_baby]

This might be over the top, but an idea. What about being admitted as an outpatient or observation and have anesthesia manage your pain? IMO, they are truly the experts in pain control.

[Spryte]

Drink apple cider vinegar in water (to help dissolve the stones)

 

http://www.wikihow.com/Dissolve-Kidney-Stones

 

have they done an MRI to see if the stones are small enough to pass or if they need to be broken up  Do you know what kindo f stonres you have?  Asparagus is supposed to be good for the uric acid kind.  http://www.naturalremediesforkidneystones.net/asparagus-and-kidney-stones/

 

I will send DH out for apple cider vinegar, if we don't have any.  Thank you.  Asparagus, too, if I can eat.

 

They did a CT, and saw the stone.  I didn't get all the info re: size of stone, but she did say that it's working it's way out, and seemed to think it would pass. I *think* (from past stones) that they can tell the size from the CT.  Hopefully.  I'll try to catch it and send it off for testing.  

 

I've called a urologist, and they are looking at my ER records to decide if I'm an emergent case and need to be seen asap.  Geez, I *feel* emergent!  

 

This was so much easier to handle when there were pain meds I could take.  Now I get a few breaks (like now, and when I posted earlier) but for the most part it's just unreal.

 

Acupuncture sounds good, but there's no place close.  :(

 

Thanks for these tips.  And any more.  

[Spryte]

This might be over the top, but an idea. What about being admitted as an outpatient or observation and have anesthesia manage your pain? IMO, they are truly the experts in pain control.

 

Funny you should mention that.  My primary said something similar.  She did some research and the only med she can find that might work is usually used in the OR.  Or for cancer patients.  She said if I end up back in the ER, unable to cope at home, to mention it.  

[Spryte]

One more question:  If I do end up at the ER again, would it be crazy for me to go to a different ER?  The other one in our area *might* still stock the only med I've not reacted badly to... Though I'm not sure.  It's off the market in Europe and not officially off of it here, but heading that way... Would it be "drug seeking" to go to an ER where I think they might have a pain med I'm not allergic to???

 

I guess by definition it would be.  But this hurt so badly.  :(

[unsinkable]

A TENS unit?

 

I've not heard it used for kidney stones but I thought I'd throw it out there.

 

I'm really sorry.

 

Maybe a nerve block or shot? Epidural?

[TranquilMind]

I have a kidney stone that hasn't passed.  It is (obviously) very painful.  But I am allergic to all the pain meds.  Really.   :(

 

Spent yesterday in the ER, and it was agony.  At one point the doc walked in as tears were streaming down my face, and went through the list of meds again - going over my reactions to each. (Codeines/morphines/derivatives/etc) The hospital doesn't stock the only two meds I've not reacted to - demerol and darvocet - those might be off the market anyway, not sure.  We decided to try a low dose of dilaudid again, since that one seemed to have the least dangerous reaction (for me).  I did okay for a bit, got discharged and then collapsed inside our front door with excruciating chest pain, shortness of breath, and fainting.  Had to return to the ER on a stretcher.  

 

So now I am home.  In agony.  

 

I am doing deep breathing.  Meditating.  But it still gets away from me.  I called my primary, and she wracked her brain to come up with something - but no luck.

 

Any tips?  Any ideas at all for managing this pain would be appreciated.

 

Kidney stone tips appreciated too, since that's the source of the pain.  

Gosh, how horrible!  Praying for you! 

 

If nothing else, can you take a higher dose of at least Advil or something?  Maybe 4 Advil or 6?  I was told to do this once after a tooth surgery, which I realize isn't the same, but also used it after abdominal surgery, short term, as I tend to react to things as well.    I wonder if this won't at least help you get through, though obviously you wouldn't do it longer term?  Praying.

[MomtoCandJ]

Demerol and Darvocet and not commonly sought out by drug seekers. I had Demerol when I had dd1 and stradol with dd2. I'm not sure what the difference is between the two but maybe the stradol will help (they have the same ending so they should be in the same drug class)

[TranquilMind]

One more question:  If I do end up at the ER again, would it be crazy for me to go to a different ER?  The other one in our area *might* still stock the only med I've not reacted badly to... Though I'm not sure.  It's off the market in Europe and not officially off of it here, but heading that way... Would it be "drug seeking" to go to an ER where I think they might have a pain med I'm not allergic to???

 

I guess by definition it would be.  But this hurt so badly.   :(

Heck no, have someone call every ER in the county right now for you, and briefly explain the situation. Someone will help you out, surely.  You aren't trying to get medications over and over; you are trying to get ONE medication that will help you!

[hornblower]

for stone prevention, low to no animal protein diet & magnesium supplement helped me.

"In terms of food, according to the latest review on the subject, the most important thing is to reduce meat consumption (vegetarians may have only half the kidney stone risk)."
http://nutritionfacts.org/questions/what-is-the-best-diet-for-kidney-stone-prevention/

Re the magnesium supplements, there's a  fair bit of stuff about it online. Here's one oldish study - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6764473

for pain management, try to get hold of a palliative physician. They're not just for end of life care; they are the pain management experts & with your unique presentation, they'd be the people to consult with.

& I agree with TranquilMind - I'd be calling everyone....

best wishes

p.s. I've been stone free for almost 20 yrs but still remember the pain. I was a morphine drip girl. Ended up having to have lithotripsy to get them out.

[Anne]

I would call your primary back and ask her to make some calls to find out if any of the other hospitals/doctors/emergency rooms in your area have the meds you need.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug:

 

Anne

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't understand why your pharmacy or the ER's pharmacy or even your doctor's office can't order the right pain reliever (not a discontinued one) and have it delivered by Fed-Ex next day delivery or some such.  

 

Doing something to dissolve the stones (if it works) will help with the pain because it will help alleviate the cause of the pain.  

[magnificent_baby]

Funny you should mention that.  My primary said something similar.  She did some research and the only med she can find that might work is usually used in the OR.  Or for cancer patients.  She said if I end up back in the ER, unable to cope at home, to mention it.  

 

I just asked someone very familiar with pain control and they recommended Toradol for you. It can be hard on the kidneys in large doses, however. It can be given by shot or IV. This is based on the allegery info you gave here, so of course someone should review your medical history/allergies overall first. :)

[Liz CA]

Good Grief! Can they not laser the stone or something to pulverize it? Or can they not give you something to drink (not just water) that will make the stone dissolve. It is hard to believe that today's medicine has no answers for this!!!

[unsinkable]

Good Grief! Can they not laser the stone or something to pulverize it? Or can they not give you something to drink (not just water) that will make the stone dissolve. It is hard to believe that today's medicine has no answers for this!!!

I said something similar about gallstones.

 

We can make a pill that gives a man an erection for a couple hours but we can't make a pill to dissolve gallstones.

[elfgivas]

many, many hugs.  

 

kidney stones suck.  i am growing #17 currently.  sigh.... 

what has worked best for me is using lamaze breathing and focal points and drinking like a crazy person.

 

if you can take tylenol, a tylenol/benadryl/aspirin combo can help.  (must be careful re aspirin if stone is large and/or sharp due to bleeding, but for me, i can take one a day and be okay with the bleeding).  most of what works for me you can't take :(

 

but someone should be helping you with this.  do you have  primary care physician?  they should help.  when i am in kidney stone pain, i need other people to call , because i can't really talk or think so well due to the pain.  do you have someone who can help you?
 

i was admitted once, and required surgery for a struvite stone.  have your helping person ask if this is what you have, because if it is, you need more help than for ht others.

 

there are three main kinds, and different things work for different ones.  given family history, they may well be able to make an educated guess about which one you are dealing with.

 

here's a site that may help.

http://www.kidneystoners.org/information/myths/

 

some cystine and uric acid stones can be dissolved (1-3%); most can't:

 

Drink apple cider vinegar in water (to help dissolve the stones)

 

http://www.wikihow.com/Dissolve-Kidney-Stones

 

have they done an MRI to see if the stones are small enough to pass or if they need to be broken up  Do you know what kindo f stonres you have?  Asparagus is supposed to be good for the uric acid kind.  http://www.naturalremediesforkidneystones.net/asparagus-and-kidney-stones/

 

 

hornblower knows a lot about the uric acid kind of stone (this will help not grow more, but won't help get rid of the one you have)

for stone prevention, low to no animal protein diet & magnesium supplement helped me.

"In terms of food, according to the latest review on the subject, the most important thing is to reduce meat consumption (vegetarians may have only half the kidney stone risk)."
http://nutritionfacts.org/questions/what-is-the-best-diet-for-kidney-stone-prevention/

Re the magnesium supplements, there's a  fair bit of stuff about it online. Here's one oldish study - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6764473

for pain management, try to get hold of a palliative physician. They're not just for end of life care; they are the pain management experts & with your unique presentation, they'd be the people to consult with.

& I agree with TranquilMind - I'd be calling everyone....

best wishes

p.s. I've been stone free for almost 20 yrs but still remember the pain. I was a morphine drip girl. Ended up having to have lithotripsy to get them out.

 

 

I don't understand why your pharmacy or the ER's pharmacy or even your doctor's office can't order the right pain reliever (not a discontinued one) and have it delivered by Fed-Ex next day delivery or some such.  

 

Doing something to dissolve the stones (if it works) will help with the pain because it will help alleviate the cause of the pain.  

 

liz, there is some new info that shows a correlation between having this done and hypertension and diabetes later in life.  its still a good alternative for some folks, but i have chosen to not do it because of this....

Good Grief! Can they not laser the stone or something to pulverize it? Or can they not give you something to drink (not just water) that will make the stone dissolve. It is hard to believe that today's medicine has no answers for this!!!

 

and liz is right, it seems unbelievable that enduring is still the preferred option.  part of the issue is that different things work for different stones, and its hard to tell with a first stone which one it might be.  and part of it is side effects.  and part of it is that our medical system isn't so good with pain management.  at all.

 

good luck!

ann

 

[hornblower]

 

 

hornblower knows a lot about the uric acid kind of stone (this will help not grow more, but won't help get rid of the one you have)

 

 

Actually I'm a calcium oxalate girl, the most common type of stone.

I have used the mag to dissolve small stones. After a few yrs, I got good at feeling them starting - a small, aching pain in my kidney.... Up the mag consumption and fluids (plus I have some herbal meds from Europe) & they go away.

[KidsHappen]

I have a kidney stone that hasn't passed.  It is (obviously) very painful.  But I am allergic to all the pain meds.  Really.   :(

 

Spent yesterday in the ER, and it was agony.  At one point the doc walked in as tears were streaming down my face, and went through the list of meds again - going over my reactions to each. (Codeines/morphines/derivatives/etc) The hospital doesn't stock the only two meds I've not reacted to - demerol and darvocet - those might be off the market anyway, not sure.  We decided to try a low dose of dilaudid again, since that one seemed to have the least dangerous reaction (for me).  I did okay for a bit, got discharged and then collapsed inside our front door with excruciating chest pain, shortness of breath, and fainting.  Had to return to the ER on a stretcher.  

 

So now I am home.  In agony.  

 

I am doing deep breathing.  Meditating.  But it still gets away from me.  I called my primary, and she wracked her brain to come up with something - but no luck.

 

Any tips?  Any ideas at all for managing this pain would be appreciated.

 

Kidney stone tips appreciated too, since that's the source of the pain.  

They don't really prescribe Darvocet anymore. I don't think that it has been taken off the market yet but they have determined that it is not a very effective pain reliever but it is pretty addictive so it is no longer prescribed much and most pharmacies don't carry it. On the other hand, almost all L&D units carry Demerol. It is the go to pain med for L&D. It is possible that the ER doesn't have any stocked and didn't think about L&D so maybe you could ask them about it specifically.

 

Finally there is a medicine that causes the ureter to relax and allow easier passage of the stone. For some reason they don't give it right away but only after pain meds have failed to fully control pain. Both my hubby and I have found that it makes a major difference so ask about that as well. One pain med that might work is Tramdol. It is a synthetic med like Davocet so maybe it would work for you. They could try it at the hospital in case you have a reaction but if it works for you it can be prescribed to take at home. Something else to try at home is soaking in a hot bath. When you get kidney stones you subconsciously tighten your muscles against the pain. This increases your pain and slows the passage of stones. A hot bath relaxes your muscles and decreases you pain. I hope that you pass it soon. 

[Spryte]

Thanks for the support. I go see my primary in the morning. Gritting teeth through the night.

 

I called the urologist again but they won't even schedule an appt till they've seen my ER records. Embarrassingly, I cried on the phone, so the receptionist is well aware that I have no pain relief.

 

This feels absolutely barbaric. DH's colleagues who live in Europe don't understand why I'm having to suffer. Explaining the wait and endure till it passes mindset didn't go over well. I agree with them.

 

Oh, and for Jean: I think the issue with the pain med is that no docs want to Rx it anymore, as so many deaths are associated with it. :( I think a hospital about 30 minutes away still stock it though. Thinking that I have that option is getting me through for now.

[Spryte]

Oh, goodness, I'm getting everyone mixed up and just have to trust you'll all know I'm reading and grateful but comprehension is way off right now.

 

kidsHappen, they gave me flomax in the ER yesterday. I think flomax is the med you mean. DH found some in our medicine cabinet from my last stone, so I took it. It's helping. Whew. I wouldn't have taken it if they hadn't given it in the ER, but it must be ok. It's definitely a bit of relief.

 

I will ask my primary about tramadol and other options here tomorrow.

 

You are all great. Thanks.

[Cera]

Can you have demerol or darvocet ordered from the pharmacy (maybe a compounding pharmacy)?  I think I would keep a few darvocet pills on hand for the future (though it won't help much now).

[Spryte]

I just asked someone very familiar with pain control and they recommended Toradol for you. It can be hard on the kidneys in large doses, however. It can be given by shot or IV. This is based on the allegery info you gave here, so of course someone should review your medical history/allergies overall first. :)

 

Oh, yes!  They did give me a shot of this yesterday.  It was mildly helpful, but it was after that that the doc walked in and found me with tears streaming down my face, fighting the pain, so I think maybe they were focused on finding something more effective.  I wonder if another shot of toradol would have helped at that time.  Instead, I agreed to try the Dilaudid, despite prior reactions - what a mistake.   :(

 

After the Dilaudid incident they gave me Toradol in the IV for the chest pain and the stone pain both.  And it did seem to make things more bearable.  I wonder if it's available as an Rx, at home?  I will ask my primary tomorrow.  

 

Thank you.