Need different algebra

[Elisabet1]

I have searched and I cannot find my post, so I will try again. 

 

My son is very good at math and is in Algebra. I have him in Foresters, but he is flipping out over writing out all the problems and cannot do it. I would like a work book program. I have considered MUS. But, since he wants to major in computer science, I do not want a weak program. He does not need a massively twisty difficult program. We just want a thorough program.

 

I know for a fact that someone can still go on to be in computer science even if they are not writing out problems. Our public schools no longer have kids write out problems, everything is submitted online. My husband has a degree in this and never ever uses paper and a pencil (or pen).  In Foresters, he is frustrated with writing out the problems. He wants me to sit with him while he verbally gives me all the answers and I just do not have time for that.

[regentrude]

I know for a fact that someone can still go on to be in computer science even if they are not writing out problems. Our public schools no longer have kids write out problems, everything is submitted online. My husband has a degree in this and never ever uses paper and a pencil (or pen).  In Foresters, he is frustrated with writing out the problems. He wants me to sit with him while he verbally gives me all the answers and I just do not have time for that.

 

He will need to be able to write out his math and science problems in college, even if the courses use computer graded homework. For one thing, writing it out is essential to be able to solve more complex problems (even if you only put the final answer into a computer), and secondly, tests will require fully worked open ended problems. If he does not train this skill, he will not be successful.

 

Is impossible to advance in higher math without learning to write out the problems, since at some point the complexity will make this essential. It is good to train this skill when the problems are not too difficult.

Irrespective of whether you change program or not, this is a vital skills he will absolutely need to possess.

 

You may know this "for a fact", but as a college instructor teaching students who major in STEM disciplines (Comp sci among them) I know that it is also a fact that students who are unable to write out their problems tend to be unsuccessful in their required  math and physics courses. Giving the final answer is worth 5 percent of the grade, the rest is showing the procedure. A person may not need to do it in his specific job, but he will still need to be able to do it to pass the required classes to get the degree.

 

ETA: If he has issues with dysgraphia and handwriting, he needs to learn to type his math. LaTex is the best way to do so.

[wapiti]

Your thread is here http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/526410-algebra/

 

FWIW, I think the writing out of the problems is a different issue entirely from what program to use.  At some point, there must be writing, but note that the writing can be typed instead!  I have a ds in the middle of algebra who would much rather type.  His options for typing math include LaTeX and efofex.

 

You may also assign some exercises that are short-answer on the computer (e.g. Alcumus).  He could use a white board for writing out whatever he needs for solving the problems - less friction than pencil/paper.

[Arcadia]

. I would like a work book program.

....

He wants me to sit with him while he verbally gives me all the answers and I just do not have time for that.

A workbook program would still need him to write out his solutions. He just do not need to copy out the questions.

 

As for writing out his own answers, unless he qualify for accommodations allowing someone to scribe for him, he would need to write out his answers for class tests and exams in the future.

 

A girlfriend had someone scribe for her for an exam but she had her right hand in a cast and took the exam in an isolated room with the scribe.

 

Is it just math he refuse to write or other subjects as well?

[Lori D.]

Agreeing with previous posters that there will still be the need to write out the solutions. Is the problem that DS makes mistakes in transferring the original problem from the book to paper? Or that he just resents not only the added layer of writing out the solutions, but also having to write out the problems? Was he previously using a math that did NOT require writing out the problems?

 

Aside from copying the problems from the text onto paper, does DS connect with Foresters? Does he understand the explanations and get how to solve the problems from the teaching style of the program? If so, I'd hesitate to switch away from a program that clicks for a student understanding-wise.

 

So if he clicks otherwise with Foresters, how about an "outside the box" work-around for having to write out the problems.

 

How about having him take 10 minutes to write out the problems on paper (leaving himself plenty of space around each problem for solving) at one time of the day -- maybe the afternoon of the day BEFORE he'll be solving -- and then actually work the problem set in the morning of the NEXT day. What's great about this solution is that DS does get used to writing out the problems -- he just doesn't have to do it simultaneous with the solving, so it eases the writing pain.

 

Having DS type up the problems, leaving space for solving, and printing would also work.

 

A less desirable solution: How about photocopying the problem set, and solving on the photocopy page. This requires a helpful layout of the book to make this workable by laying a blank sheet of paper over the unneeded portion of the lesson, to allow extra space for working out the problems.

 

 

… He wants me to sit with him while he verbally gives me all the answers and I just do not have time for that.

 

This sounds like your DS ALSO dislikes having to write out the steps to the solution, on top of the having to write out the problem. Both of my DSs at that age also hated having to "show their work" when they moved into doing Algebra 1. I just had to institute a new policy at that time: the correct answer was worth 1 point, AND, showing your work was worth 1 point. They could have all the answers correct, but without any written solution steps, only score a maximum of 50%, which is failure here. That helped the situation become impersonal -- "Gee, that's just the requirement for high school level math!" The grumbling continued for a week or so, but finally faded away once they got into the new routine.

 

Young teen boys and the problem of having to write out problems and "show your work" comes up a LOT on this Board at this time of year, when those boys (who never did like writing much) hit Algebra 1. So you are not alone! ;)

 

BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

[wapiti]

Also note that there is a workbook ("Skills Practice") for Foerster but it doesn't really have room to do the work in the workbook beyond simply writing the solution

ISBN 0201860988.  Eta oops, I don't know what happened since I bought this last year but prices went crazy - too expensive!  Maybe something similar is available from the current publisher - eta, still too expensive

 

You probably don't have time for this, but last year for my ds, I made up several worksheets with the exercises with lines underneath for solving.  That tended to "grease the skids" enough that he'd do the work without complaining about the writing.

[Lori D.]

...I made up several worksheets with the exercises with lines underneath for solving.  That tended to "grease the skids" enough that he'd do the work without complaining about the writing.

 

Good idea. :)

 

I forgot that I did something similar. We used graph paper, to help DS#2 with handwriting issues be able to line things up. Also, over about 4-6 weeks' time, I slowly decreased how many problems I was writing out and increased how many DS had to write out, until he fully "took the baton" and could run with without any help from me. Sort of like exercising a new/weak muscle and building up slowly. ;)

[G5052]

Writing out the problems is absolutely essential for a computer science major.  If he goes to a school following the ACM curriculum (a must if his degree is to be taken seriously), he will be taking a lot of math in college, much more than just calculus.  I'm not up on the current curriculum, but past calculus I had to take several semesters of discrete math, statistics, differential equations, and analysis just for the B.S. in computer science.  When I was nearing the end of my computer science degree, I realized that I had all but two courses of a math degree completed.  At that point I also decided that I wanted to go into scientific programming versus system programming, so I stayed one more semester and got both degrees which was exactly what each of my employers down the road wanted.

 

This is down the road, but even getting an IT degree will require a good amount of math, although it is more application-oriented math.  IT is not as marketable these days as computer science, but it is something to consider.  

 

My oldest is very good at math but much prefers application-oriented math, so he may go that way.  And he hated writing out all the steps, but we dealt with that and moved on.  He knows now that cutting corners isn't an option.  We're just starting pre-calculus this week.

[Elisabet1]

I have no idea. He is not communicating now. He is just in his room bawling because his dad told him he just has to write the problems out. But, he is not communicating well enough to figure out what is bothering him.

[kiana]

Have him start learning LaTeX and using it to type his math problems. If he's planning on being a programmer and already learning C++ and Java (from your other thread), learning to use LaTeX should be pretty easy. It's free -- search for MikTeX and download the most recent version.

[Lanny]

His dad is correct. Your DS must learn to write out the work or this is not going to fly. As others have written, it is essential that he be able to write out the problems. These 2 data sheets about TTUISD examinations for Pre Algebra and Algebra 1 (the first semester of each course) show that Calculators are permitted, or, required, but they want to see the work...   In the courses, the work is scanned in and sent to them as a .PDF file or DD copies her Math  into MS WORD and saves that as a .PDF file.  There is also an Editor in the FREE OpenOffice Suite (now called LibreOffice or Apache OpenOffice) for Math, which may help your son now or in the future, but he must learn to write out the work.... If he has any intention of going to a good university and majoring in anything in the College of Engineering, this is simply a requirement he will need to comply with and he must be accustomed to doing it their way.   

 

This web page describes the CBE (Credit by Examination) for the first semester of 8th grade Math (Pre Algebra):

http://www.depts.ttu.edu/uc/cbepdf/ms/math8a_10127.pdf

 

This web page describes the CBE (Credit by Examination) for the first semester of 9th grade Math (Algebra 1):

http://www.depts.ttu.edu/uc/cbepdf/hs/alg1a.pdf

 

This web page describes the Math editor in LibreOffice:

http://www.libreoffice.org/discover/math/

 

"Our public schools no longer have kids write out problems, everything is submitted online."

If the students do not write out their Math work, that's probably one of the reasons so many of them will be taking remedial courses, in a community college or university, after they graduate from high school...

[Mom22ns]

We moved to Lial's specifically because it was still a workbook where ds wouldn't have to copy all the problems. We did still make him write out all his work and there wasn't always room, in which case he kept a notebook and did do some problems there.

 

My ds has multiple LDs and even the college board granted him use of a word processor for writing. Writing is a real issue, and copying problems just made it that much worse. Using a workbook (we used MUS for lower grades then Lial's for Algebras) reduced the writing enough to make it manageable for him. 

 

That said, ds who has a CS degree and a MS in CIS, and is currently VP of Applications Development, constantly emphasized "show work", "write more steps", "stop skipping steps". Those are his main mantras whenever he helps my kids with math homework.

[CaffeineDiary]

I agree with Lanny.  To borrow and change a phrase from Euclid, there is no Royal Road to algebra.  The choices are to learn to do it the hard way, or to be crippled, mathematically, for the rest of his life.  Algebra is the gateway to all interesting math.  If he can't do the algebra, then he will be starting with a handicap in trigonometry, calculus, and everything else, which all assume basic proficiency in algebra.

 

[Space station]

I agree with the others that say he needs to learn to write out the problems and the work.  This is an issue of learning the self-discipline to do what needs to be done, even though it might not be what he wants to hear.  I wouldn't help him get around that.  I don't mean that to sound harsh at all.  Since he hasn't learned this skill gradually at the lower levels, I can see how it could be a shock to have to start doing it all at once at this level.  Maybe have him start with a certain number of problems that he has to copy and complete each day himself, without you writing out the problems or the work for him.  Then if you want to help him with the rest, fine, but let him understand that this is a transition time and that you are going to help him move to doing his work independently over the next however many weeks. Then gradually increase the amount he is expected to do himself. 

[Elisabet1]

The problems he was having trouble with, were in the chapter review/test for chapter 1. The first set of problems had him writing out answers to questions such as explaining the difference between an expression and an equation. I ended up letting him do all of number 1 verbally. Then he wrote out the rest of the problems and solved on paper with no trouble. So I guess it was not the "math" problems that were giving him trouble but the ones where he had to write out explanations of terms and such.

[regentrude]

The problems he was having trouble with, were in the chapter review/test for chapter 1. The first set of problems had him writing out answers to questions such as explaining the difference between an expression and an equation. I ended up letting him do all of number 1 verbally. Then he wrote out the rest of the problems and solved on paper with no trouble. So I guess it was not the "math" problems that were giving him trouble but the ones where he had to write out explanations of terms and such.

 

That is different. I see no need to make a student write out verbal explanations for definitions - if he can explain this orally, that's completely fine.

 

[Jann in TX]

I'd give him a bit of wiggle room when it came down to writing out answers with 'words'-- explanations can be done verbally and some Algebra 1 students are not mentally mature enough to clearly express the 'why' or 'how' but they know how to do...

 

When it comes to actual problems me MUST show his work.

Algebra 1 will use simple problems that are easy to check mentally to teach important procedures that will be valuable in harder problems.

x + 2 = 10 can be worked mentally by most 2nd graders-- BUT most second graders do not understand balancing and manipulating equations - something that is vital for any forward progression in high school maths.  What usually happens is the 'do not show work students' can make A's and B's in the first chapters--but once concepts build they get lost-- they just can't hold all of the numbers and manipulations in their head-- and since they have not practiced the manipulations, they have weak organizational skills... it alll snowballs... if it doesn't catch up to them in Algebra 1 it will in Algebra 2!

 

I've had many students who were reluctant to show work.  IF there is a disability (disgraphia) I do cut a bit of slack--but most of the steps need to be shown... if it is extreme then they can have someone scribe for them or use a computer program to 'write' the steps for them. 

 

Also I'd be hesitant to recommend a program where students fill in multiple choice answers (like TT) unless the student shows ALL work first... at the Algebra 1 and 2 levels it is very easy to 'reverse engineer' problems by plugging in the potential answers... this is NOT using Algebra it is using patterning and it will catch up to them eventually and when a non multiple choice test comes along  they will fail because they have not algebraic strategies!

 

[kiana]

The problems he was having trouble with, were in the chapter review/test for chapter 1. The first set of problems had him writing out answers to questions such as explaining the difference between an expression and an equation. I ended up letting him do all of number 1 verbally. Then he wrote out the rest of the problems and solved on paper with no trouble. So I guess it was not the "math" problems that were giving him trouble but the ones where he had to write out explanations of terms and such.

OK, these I would definitely let him answer verbally or type -- if they are only words he doesn't need any special software.

 

I thought you were talking about not wanting to write out his math problems and solving them mentally instead :)

[MarkT]

The problems he was having trouble with, were in the chapter review/test for chapter 1. The first set of problems had him writing out answers to questions such as explaining the difference between an expression and an equation. I ended up letting him do all of number 1 verbally. Then he wrote out the rest of the problems and solved on paper with no trouble. So I guess it was not the "math" problems that were giving him trouble but the ones where he had to write out explanations of terms and such.

 

This has been a trend in math for a while now, "writing about math". 

 

I guess it is for weak math students who can memorize some definitions and get some points on a test. IMHO I think it is a waste of time so just skip those. But who knows that crap may end up on the new SAT.

 

"Still, in response to the earlier recommendations, many school systems required children to describe in writing the reasoning behind their answers. Some parents complained that students ended up writing about math, rather than doing it."

 

from

http://www.math.rochester.edu/people/faculty/rarm/wsj_focal-pts.htm

[kiana]

This has been a trend in math for a while now, "writing about math". 

 

I guess it is for weak math students who can memorize some definitions and get some points on a test. IMHO I think it is a waste of time so just skip those. But who knows that crap may end up on the new SAT.

 

"Still, in response to the earlier recommendations, many school systems required children to describe in writing the reasoning behind their answers. Some parents complained that students ended up writing about math, rather than doing it."

 

from

http://www.math.rochester.edu/people/faculty/rarm/wsj_focal-pts.htm

 

You know, I disagree. There are a lot of students who really don't understand the difference between an expression and an equality, which results in giving a problem like "factor x^2 - 1" and having the student answer "x = plus or minus 1". Having problems like this as homework -- especially on a chapter review -- allows the teacher to better assess where exactly the student doesn't understand.

 

I think that it can be taken to excess, but I do think it has a place in the curriculum.

 

[Mom22ns]

You know, I disagree. There are a lot of students who really don't understand the difference between an expression and an equality, which results in giving a problem like "factor x^2 - 1" and having the student answer "x = plus or minus 1". Having problems like this as homework -- especially on a chapter review -- allows the teacher to better assess where exactly the student doesn't understand.

 

I think that it can be taken to excess, but I do think it has a place in the curriculum.

 

 

I agree with Kiana here. My kids can usually work problems far better than they can explain them. We don't memorize answers to these questions as Mark suggests, so instead, my kids have to think in order to answer these.

 

Maybe some kids automatically conceptually understand math. Mine automatically do math and sometimes conceptual understanding is missed. These questions help me catch those gaps. I prefer to do them verbally, and I don't want to spend a lot of time on them, but if they can't explain something in words, it is often because they are just doing a set of steps without real understanding.

 

I think they have their place. I prefer them on reviews rather than tests, or even at the start of the lesson before the practice problems where Lial's often has a few of them, checking understanding before they start working problems.

[MarkT]

You know, I disagree. There are a lot of students who really don't understand the difference between an expression and an equality,

 

I agree with the above statement but I don't believe "writing about it" will really help. Walking the student through different expressions and then doing tasks such as a simplifying an expression would be a better use of time in my opinion.  Once they grok what expressions are you can move on to equations. This should start in Pre-algebra then reinforce in Algebra I.

 

[regentrude]

This has been a trend in math for a while now, "writing about math". 

 

I guess it is for weak math students who can memorize some definitions and get some points on a test. IMHO I think it is a waste of time so just skip those. But who knows that crap may end up on the new SAT.

 

"Still, in response to the earlier recommendations, many school systems required children to describe in writing the reasoning behind their answers. Some parents complained that students ended up writing about math, rather than doing it."

 

I disagree. Explaining verbally the reasoning behind a procedure is a great way to assess actual understanding AND a great way to develop this understanding. I encounter many students who can perform math manipulations, but who have no understanding what it is they are doing and why it works. Forcing students to verbalize math and EXPLAIN is a valuable teaching tool.

 

It can. of course, be implemented poorly by teachers who themselves lack conceptual understanding and who give the students busy work instead of having them verbalize actual reasoning.

But it is definitely not "crap" having to explain mathematics in words - if they can't describe in English words and sentences what it is they are doing, they are not really doing math, they are following a  rote procedure like trained monkeys.

[MarkT]

I disagree. Explaining verbally the reasoning behind a procedure is a great way to assess actual understanding AND a great way to develop this understanding. I encounter many students who can perform math manipulations, but who have no understanding what it is they are doing and why it works. Forcing students to verbalize math and EXPLAIN is a valuable teaching tool.

 

It can. of course, be implemented poorly by teachers who themselves lack conceptual understanding and who give the students busy work instead of having them verbalize actual reasoning.

But it is definitely not "crap" having to explain mathematics in words - if they can't describe in English words and sentences what it is they are doing, they are not really doing math, they are following a  rote procedure like trained monkeys.

I probably used a poor quote in my reply.  I do have my son explain why he is doing something verbally (reasoning) but never ask him to write it out. I also could care less if he has the book definitions memorized.

 

[kiana]

I agree with the above statement but I don't believe "writing about it" will really help. Walking the student through different expressions and then doing tasks such as a simplifying an expression would be a better use of time in my opinion.  Once they grok what expressions are you can move on to equations. This should start in Pre-algebra then reinforce in Algebra I.

 

This is not "writing about it" per se, along the lines of the "if math were a color, what would it be?" that you see in some elementary school curricula (which, btw, is complete and utter horsecrap), but rather explaining the reasoning behind the actual math they are doing. I also doubt that it will help them understand, but rather it will reveal their lack of understanding to the instructor for review and remediation purposes.

 

Of course, the student should also be simplifying expressions, but many students become quite good at performing math procedurally and still haven't the foggiest idea what they're doing, which harms them when they need to move past algebra 1.

 

As far as memorizing book definitions, they certainly don't need to have the precise wording, but for most of them, they need to know, understand, and use those definitions. For example, I would never ask someone to "state the zero-factor rule", but they need to know that you can only factor a polynomial and set both factors equal to the other side if it equals zero. (I just got done grading a bunch of algebra where they had something like 2x(x-1) = 4 and attempted to set 2x = 4 and x-1 = 4).

[mathmarm]

I have searched and I cannot find my post, so I will try again. 

 

My son is very good at math and is in Algebra. I have him in Foresters, but he is flipping out over writing out all the problems and cannot do it. I would like a work book program. I have considered MUS. But, since he wants to major in computer science, I do not want a weak program. He does not need a massively twisty difficult program. We just want a thorough program.

Perhaps you can make (or have him make) some blank templates on notebook pages and then scan those templates and create a generic worksheet that he can do his problems on, but he needs to be writing out at least 75% of his work, in my opinion.

 

I know for a fact that someone can still go on to be in computer science even if they are not writing out problems.

If he wants a degree in a computer related field, he will have to take at least 2 (probably 3) semesters of Calculus. He'll have to write his answers and draw them out and do some mild proofs class, the final results will not usually be numbers but expressions... Also to major in CS he'll need Discrete Mathematics where very few of the answers are numeric and practically all of them are absolutely necessary to write out, as far as I know, their is no homework program for anything outside of Algebra, Calculus, Stats.

 

Our public schools no longer have kids write out problems, everything is submitted online.

 

Those PSs are probably doing their students a huge disservice because many kids are being extra, extra lazy and not writing out their work because their submitting the final answer online and many of them are cheating to get those answers in the first place. However, even though local kids are putting the final answer in and submitting that online, it doesn't mean that those kids didn't write down the work to get there.

All that means is that the schools are so large that they needed to automate the grading process. Most teachers, I would imagine, allow for partial (or even full) credit if you show them your notes/solutions in full, in the event that you simply hit the wrong buttons. We use homework portals, but if students want credit in case of a mistake, they have to show me the solution.

 

My husband has a degree in this and never ever uses paper and a pencil (or pen). But, the odds are fantastic that he can write them out. Knowing how to do something and having the luxury of choosing not to do it, is very different than not knowing how to do a thing and not even having the option to do it. In the computer science department at the university where I teach, many 1st and 2nd year undergrads are still required to hand write flowcharts, algorithms, and their programs along with typing them up and using the computer to compile them--this isn't optional, this is mandatory practice in some classes/with some teachers.

 

A licensed and experienced driver who can both drive and navigate competently may choose to ride the bus, or take a cab, or walk, or bike OR drive their own car. IF you can't navigate and don't have a car, or a bike, or a bus, then you have to walk and if you don't know the way, and you are constantly stopping to ask for directions. .

 

In Foresters, he is frustrated with writing out the problems. He wants me to sit with him while he verbally gives me all the answers and I just do not have time for that.

I say shift the focus from doing a lot in a mediocre fashion and practice doing a little exceptionally well. Do half of a lesson at a time, he needs to write out his work, work through frustration or boredom and do the task properly if he wants to go into STEM. There are several classes that are designed to get rid of weak students. The school he goes to will not want him there if he's weak--they'll gladly accept his tuition, but they are going to test him with the course work and their rules/preferences for how its done. If he cant hang--he's done.

 

 

[Carolyn in Ohio]

I used Chalkdust for instruction, but added in Keys to Algebra workbooks and where I could, substituted those for practice problems from the textbook. It didn't cover all the topics but was an easy way to ease my writing phobic son into writing out all his work. He's doing Precalc now, and doesn't complain about the writing.

 

hth

Carolyn

[Space station]

This has been a trend in math for a while now, "writing about math".

 

I guess it is for weak math students who can memorize some definitions and get some points on a test. IMHO I think it is a waste of time so just skip those. But who knows that crap may end up on the new SAT.

 

"Still, in response to the earlier recommendations, many school systems required children to describe in writing the reasoning behind their answers. Some parents complained that students ended up writing about math, rather than doing it."

 

from

http://www.math.rochester.edu/people/faculty/rarm/wsj_focal-pts.htm

It is already showing up on standardized tests in our state, so I expect to see more of it in years to come.

[Elisabet1]

OK, these I would definitely let him answer verbally or type -- if they are only words he doesn't need any special software.

 

I thought you were talking about not wanting to write out his math problems and solving them mentally instead :)

To be honest, when I first made the post, I was not looking at what he was having trouble with. Then I looked finally and realized that was what it was. I let him do that portion verbally and then he zoomed through the rest. I feel awful I didn't look closer sooner! Everything that has gone on lately, I clearly neglected what I was doing there.

[MarkT]

oops wrong topic

[Lori D.]

To be honest, when I first made the post, I was not looking at what he was having trouble with. Then I looked finally and realized that was what it was. I let him do that portion verbally and then he zoomed through the rest. I feel awful I didn't look closer sooner! Everything that has gone on lately, I clearly neglected what I was doing there.

 

Looks like you have it all figured out. Yea! :)

[Julie in MN]

I have no idea. He is not communicating now. He is just in his room bawling because his dad told him he just has to write the problems out. But, he is not communicating well enough to figure out what is bothering him.

 

Math Relief has all the problems already written out on the worksheets (and the answers show the same worksheets with everything fully written out).

 

He will still do plenty of writing even if he doesn't have to out copy the problems.  I wouldn't worry about that one piece making or breaking him.

 

We've also done some math on the marker board when ds was having a meltdown.  Sometimes there is the ideal... and then there is the reality.

 

Julie